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00:00Thank you, your numbers are complete, everyone will agree on the resolution.
00:04Even after this, is there any miscalculation?
00:06Are you not seeing from within that there will be a reaction on this in the Supreme Court?
00:10Because you directly challenged 2-3 things.
00:12I will talk about the rest too, but you are directly challenging this.
00:16Because this was a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court.
00:19It endorsed your practice and procedure bill.
00:21In that way, it agreed with the Constitutional Committee.
00:25And now you have changed it overnight.
00:27I don't think that there is any miscalculation or bias.
00:33Here, this is our work.
00:36Which is to amend the Constitution, the law or any law.
00:40It is obvious that we understood it better.
00:43Because apart from the common man, if we look at the political cases, they are also not taking up.
00:49How many months have passed, the details of the special sessions have not been decided yet.
00:54But after the short order, the explanatory orders have come twice.
00:58So at least we have to see that we have to end this whole thing, this constitutional crisis.
01:04And this political crisis that has come with it, we have to end it too.
01:09These things should be decided once and for all.
01:12Whether it is about the 63-1, whether it is about the special sessions,
01:15whether it is about any other political issue or about any political party.
01:20So this should be decided once and for all.
01:22And you thought that to end the constitutional crisis, we would do a great job.
01:26We would not implement the decision of the Supreme Court of the special sessions.
01:30No, that was also said by the Speaker.
01:32Look, our work as a parliament, with the trichotomy of powers or separation of powers,
01:38when you talk about that concept, then every institution has its own work.
01:42And every institution has its own place.
01:44And which should be according to the constitution and the law.
01:46And there is also a place in the constitution.
01:48But the issue, unfortunately, is that institutions transgress each other's powers or space.
01:55When they transgress, then there is a situation of collusion with each other.
02:01Now, this Election Commission of Pakistan is an institution itself.
02:05And it has to decide whether it has to look at the order,
02:08which is different from the constitution and the law or from the factual position.
02:14Or it has to look at the letter of the parliament, whatever the letters are,
02:18where this issue of the special sessions will go.
02:21This is a good thing. I think this debate will be settled in the court.
02:23Because that decision is a unanimous decision, a majority decision.
02:27And it is the written decision of the next Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan,
02:30Mansoor Ali Shah, who has also been mentioned by your government.
02:33This means that after this decision, justice will again go to the court.
02:36There will be a legal tussle.
02:38There will be uncertainty.
02:39Will these seats remain occupied or not?
02:41You notify on this, they will be denotified.
02:43So, you are deepening the crisis further, instead of settling it.
02:46Absolutely not. According to my information, I must tell you that
02:49probably PTI has also issued a recent request on this and on its implementation.
02:54But this is such a serious matter.
02:57Because an order came, the party which they did not have in front and so on and so forth,
03:02seats were given to that third party.
03:04Here, Memorandum had already taken an oath.
03:07A letter has also come from the parliament.
03:10And PTI will again go for its implementation.
03:13The clarification that came in the detailed order of the Election Commission is also in front of you.
03:16So, this thing should end.
03:18Either this house will run without these seats or it will run with these seats.
03:23Then there will be a direct confrontation with your institution, with the Supreme Court.
03:26If in each other's space and in each other's constitutional matters,
03:29or in the space provided to you by the constitution,
03:31you will transgress,
03:33whether that Supreme Court transgresses in our constitutional space
03:38or it transgresses in the work of the Election Commission of Pakistan
03:42by issuing party certificates
03:44or by telling the affiliation of someone's party that it is not from this party, it is from this party.
03:49So, obviously, there will be a constitutional crisis.
03:51Politically, how does it play out for you?
03:53So, let's talk about the law.
03:54One Chief Justice is about to come.
03:56One Chief Justice is going.
03:58I will ask you what happened.
04:00And the decision of the coming Chief Justice, the constitutional decision,
04:04you are not implementing it.
04:06Politically, how does it play out for you?
04:08To, you know, just kind of not do it.
04:11When a new Chief Justice is coming.
04:13See, personalities don't matter.
04:15Institutions matter.
04:17And some people came, some people left.
04:20People coming and going doesn't matter.
04:23As long as the institution is not strong,
04:25as long as the institution does not work in its constitutional framework,
04:28then it will have some effect on the institution.
04:31And the institution itself bears its effect.
04:34So, obviously,
04:36Chief Justices came before this,
04:38and some have come before this,
04:41and some will come after this.
04:43This thing doesn't matter.
04:44You have to see how you have to strengthen and strengthen the institution.
04:48And that is why,
04:49the package that we are bringing in terms of law reforms, judicial reforms,
04:54and there is a lot of consideration on it,
04:58and a lot of discussion is going on.
05:00And with a broader consensus,
05:02God willing, when the table will be re-established,
05:04the institution will be better.
05:06You have brought this ordinance,
05:08on which you have to make a consensus.
05:09Moulana Fazlur Rehman,
05:11if we could hear his statement,
05:13the way he was talking yesterday,
05:15that this will create a problem,
05:16the way he is talking to the party,
05:18in terms of these law reforms,
05:20because he considers this ordinance to be ill-intentioned.
05:22Let's listen to him,
05:23and then we will take an opinion on it.
05:25I have seen it in detail.
05:29And the work that he could not do in Parliament,
05:31he is bypassing it from Parliament,
05:33and he is bringing it through the ordinance.
05:35So the ordinance will be based on ill-intention,
05:37and there will be objections to it.
05:39When the People's Party has spoken to us,
05:41and we have taken their discussion seriously,
05:43and we very seriously want to agree on these issues,
05:47on the package.
05:49If such an ordinance is issued by the presidency,
05:52then obviously,
05:54he is the president,
05:56but he is also the co-chairman of the People's Party,
05:58so he is changing the direction of his party,
06:02between the Pakistani Party and the JYP,
06:05between Muffa Ahmed and Ruka Uttar.
06:07So you want Maulana's vote in the future,
06:10so he has a clear position on this,
06:12and still has it.
06:13So in the ordinance,
06:14he has clearly said that it is ill-intentioned,
06:16and the negotiation will have an effect on it.
06:18Look Maria, this is an ordinance,
06:20but it does not mean that it will not be presented.
06:22Obviously,
06:23because Parliament and Senate are not in session,
06:25neither is the National Assembly in session,
06:27or the Senate in session.
06:28The ordinance has come because of this.
06:30Otherwise,
06:31this government would never have believed in ordinances.
06:33And this is because,
06:34this is for the benefit of the people,
06:38that the composition,
06:39the benches of the constitution,
06:43should not have this delay.
06:46As far as Maulana sir has spoken,
06:48obviously,
06:49but this is simple legislation.
06:50We do not need a two-thirds majority in this.
06:52No, but the two-thirds majority bill you want to bring forward,
06:54in which you need the help of the JOI,
06:56which you are working on right now,
06:57which you are discussing,
06:58does it jeopardize Maulana's own speech?
07:01Not at all.
07:02I think that if Maulana sir has a reservation,
07:04then we will address that as well.
07:05We have not done this with any ill-intention,
07:08or with any ulterior motive.
07:11If we have done this,
07:12then the only reason for doing this is,
07:15that at least the cases should be fixed,
07:17which have been pending for so many years.
07:19There is a lot of sense of urgency last week.
07:21I mean,
07:22it seemed that in 72 hours,
07:24we have to pass the bill,
07:26there are meetings going on till 2 am.
07:28Why are you in such a hurry?
07:30You will say,
07:31we have brought the bill for the welfare of the people.
07:33Is there any timeline?
07:35No, there is no timeline.
07:36What was the sense of urgency last week?
07:38And when the bill was passed,
07:39there is no tension this week.
07:41I will tell you,
07:43I think there can be some miscommunication,
07:47or getting lost in translation.
07:50Our understanding was that,
07:52when all its salient features were told to Maulana,
07:56and we were talking to the allies,
07:58they were told,
07:59that we are covering all these things,
08:01and these things will come.
08:02There was an in-principle agreement with Maulana.
08:05When I came to your show last time,
08:06and you said that the numbers are complete,
08:08so it is obvious,
08:09that is why I said that the numbers are complete,
08:11because of the fact that there was a principle agreement.
08:14All these parties agreed,
08:16they sat together,
08:17they felt that it is absolutely right.
08:19That is why,
08:21Then why didn't you show the agreement?
08:22I did show the agreement.
08:23Maulana sir said that,
08:24one day before,
08:25one night before,
08:26Kamran Murtaza sir got the agreement,
08:27Mingle sir didn't get the agreement,
08:29I don't know,
08:30Nawaz Sharif sir,
08:31according to some people,
08:32he didn't see the agreement,
08:33he got angry and left.
08:34How true is this?
08:35How false is this?
08:36Maulana sir didn't see it.
08:37MQM says,
08:38we didn't see the agreement,
08:39I don't know when the People's Party got the agreement.
08:41What kind of consensus legislation is this,
08:43in which till the last moment,
08:44everyone kept asking for the agreement?
08:45I think,
08:46there was a working paper,
08:48and it was not finalized.
08:49And all these things,
08:50we had discussed with Mariham.
08:52It is not that,
08:53there was no discussion.
08:54The points were the same.
08:55When Masawirda came in front,
08:57everyone saw,
08:58they said,
08:59it talks about Constitutional Codes.
09:01There are two different versions.
09:02People's Party says,
09:03we had a different document.
09:04JUIF says,
09:05we had a different document.
09:06Original document,
09:07we didn't see it.
09:08I don't know,
09:09it may be present somewhere.
09:10We may quote it tomorrow.
09:11You may go back and say,
09:12this is not an original document.
09:13So,
09:14what kind of consensus,
09:15again I am trying to ask you.
09:16I think,
09:17the modus operandi,
09:18or getting lost in translation,
09:21or miscommunication,
09:22it was our understanding,
09:24and our thinking that,
09:26because we have principally agreed on everything,
09:30the session should be called.
09:32Again,
09:33I think,
09:34in hindsight now,
09:35it is better,
09:36that a broader consensus is developing,
09:38a consensus is being formed,
09:41and Constitutional Amendments,
09:42are never hidden.
09:44This is for the benefit of the people.
09:46And,
09:47I think,
09:48it is better now,
09:49after this whole situation,
09:50after last Sunday,
09:51that one thing is open,
09:53and with that,
09:54Bar Councils,
09:55Bar Associations,
09:56apart from that,
09:57other political parties,
09:59whether they are on any side of the aisle,
10:01and with that,
10:02civil society.
10:03Now,
10:04we are discussing with all of them.
10:05So,
10:06we have seen Maulana's version,
10:07we have seen the People's Party version.
10:08Show us your paper,
10:10so that we can all have a discussion.
10:12You also talked about civil society.
10:14Where is your paper?
10:16Our paper is with us,
10:17because we have prepared it.
10:18So, where is it hidden?
10:20No, it is not hidden.
10:21I mean,
10:22if you want,
10:23I can send you the copy.
10:24Please do.
10:25We would really love that,
10:26that we also see,
10:27that in your version,
10:28in Maulana's version,
10:29in Bilawal's version,
10:30what were the problems,
10:31which you could not come to an agreement on?
10:32When will you make the next attempt?
10:35When,
10:36you cannot have a proper understanding,
10:40or,
10:41it is obvious,
10:42because,
10:43all the elected bodies of lawyers,
10:45the law minister,
10:46took them in confidence,
10:48and told them everything.
10:50The points under discussion,
10:51regarding civil society,
10:52he did all those things.
10:54And Maria,
10:55this has become their committee,
10:57which,
10:58in seven days,
10:59will give their suggestions,
11:01on this whole thing.
11:03When those seven days pass,
11:05you can say,
11:06expectedly,
11:07first week of October,
11:09but I will not say anything final.
11:11I will definitely say that,
11:13even if it goes till mid-October,
11:15at least,
11:16a broader consensus should develop,
11:19and there should be no objections from any side,
11:21and this should pass,
11:23because,
11:24in the interest of the people,
11:25the judicial reforms,
11:26legal reforms,
11:27regarding that,
11:28the benefit of that should also go to the people.
11:30Thank you very much.