A #SEBI study found that only 7% of F&O have actually made money. Why is that the case?
Tamanna Inamdar speaks to individual traders to understand what went wrong for them on 'The Big Story.' #NDTVProfitLive
Tamanna Inamdar speaks to individual traders to understand what went wrong for them on 'The Big Story.' #NDTVProfitLive
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00:30to make it more difficult for retail investors to put in their money in F&O or futures and
00:37options segment of the market. We're asking this question today on the show because of the recent
00:44data that SEBI has released on what happens with F&O trading. And some of that number which is
00:50coming through is truly startling. For example, 9 out of every 10 investors have made losses in
00:57the last three financial years. The average loss of F&O investors was 2 lakh rupees. In FY22,
01:06losses or the number of investors losing money was 89%. This has increased to 92% in FY24. So
01:14essentially the people losing money are only increasing. The daily turnover, remember meanwhile
01:20in the F&O segment is only improving and increasing by leaps and bounds. It's right
01:26now at 5 lakh crore rupees. Now the question is what is SEBI going to do about it? Because
01:31three-fourths of the investors continue trading despite losses and the number of retail investors
01:38is almost doubled to two years from 51 lakhs to 96 lakhs in this segment. Now we very often talk
01:46about this in terms of statistics. These are numbers. Retail investors are out there somewhere
01:54trading, but they are real people. Today on the show, we want to bring you some of those voices
01:59and those stories of real people who've invested, are losing money and we'll ask them if they're
02:05going to continue putting in money in F&O segment. Because these are not necessarily people who've
02:11been trading in the markets for years, some very sophisticated investors out there. These are
02:15regular people who are putting in their hard-earned money. Let's hear their stories. Om Prakash Singh
02:21joins us. He's a teacher in Bihar. He's lost around 1 lakh rupees. He's talking to us today.
02:27I'm speaking today with Rajan Bharti who's preparing for a competitive exam. He's joining
02:31us from Delhi. He's also lost around 1 lakh rupees.
02:51What losses did you face?
02:53Ma'am, I had no knowledge of the share market in the beginning.
02:58During the pandemic, I got a call and they asked me if I wanted to earn money.
03:04I said, sure, I want to earn money.
03:06And I opened my account in 2, 3, 4, 5 days.
03:11After opening it, I didn't know what F&O was and what equity was.
03:16Who called you, Om Prakash Singh? Where did you get the call from?
03:20I got a call from Motilal Oswal.
03:23I didn't know what F&O was in the beginning.
03:29We invested 50,000 rupees in F&O.
03:32It was my lifetime savings. I invested all my money.
03:36And in just 3-4 days, all my money was lost.
03:40This is a story from 2 years ago.
03:46And then you stopped investing?
03:50No, after 6 months, we started investing in equity.
03:55Even in equity, we were not able to earn money.
04:00We were not able to recover the money we had lost.
04:05Once, I got a call from Twice Broking.
04:10What did they say?
04:12They said, we will recover the 50,000 rupees you lost.
04:17We are also from Bihar.
04:21We couldn't believe it.
04:23But after a week, 10-15 days, they motivated us.
04:28And then I invested 50,000 rupees again.
04:32And we earned 50,000 rupees.
04:35Sometimes 5,000, sometimes 10,000.
04:37Sometimes 15,000, sometimes 20,000.
04:40But finally, in 4-5 days, I lost 50,000 rupees.
04:44Did anyone tell you what to do with the money?
04:50No.
04:51In the beginning, they used to tell us.
04:53They used to give us proper training.
04:55How to call, when to buy, when to go up, when to go down.
04:59But when the account was open, they used to make us do it.
05:04Sometimes, they used to take my password.
05:08They used to say, you will have to learn now.
05:10First, we will do it on your behalf.
05:13So, this is how I lost my money.
05:16Rajan Bharti, you are studying in Delhi.
05:22How did you get into this?
05:24What has been your experience?
05:26It's been 2 years.
05:30Not 2 years, but 1.5 years.
05:33I started trading 1.5 years ago.
05:36Right now, I am not able to focus on trading.
05:40But when I started, social media was very exposed.
05:46I made a lot of profit.
05:48I made a lot of money.
05:51So, people come running to see social media.
05:57For example, someone posted a screenshot.
05:59Right?
06:00And they got greedy.
06:03They said, we have to do it too.
06:05Because he can earn this much.
06:07I have this much.
06:08I will put this much and earn this much.
06:10Right?
06:11So, this greed attracted us to this.
06:16So, I opened an account.
06:17As soon as I opened the account, I put Rs. 10,000.
06:20After putting Rs. 10,000, it ended in 3-4 days.
06:25It went into loss.
06:27And I started with F&O.
06:29I studied a little about what F&O is.
06:34And where to invest the money.
06:37So, I started doing it myself.
06:39I thought, if I am learning, it's okay if I am losing.
06:42Right?
06:44As soon as Rs. 10,000 ended, I put Rs. 10,000.
06:47It ended again.
06:49In the next 2-3 days, it ended too.
06:51Right?
06:52Then I put Rs. 50,000.
06:55After putting Rs. 50,000,
06:57One day, there was an expiry.
07:01There was a Nifty expiry on Tuesday.
07:03Like today.
07:04Today, there was an expiry.
07:06So, at the same time, I took a call from far.
07:11And it went to zero.
07:14I didn't even know that it goes to zero.
07:18Mr. Rajan, you lost Rs. 10,000.
07:21You lost Rs. 10,000 again.
07:23Then you put Rs. 50,000 again.
07:25Yes.
07:26I thought, I am learning.
07:28I have learned something.
07:29Right?
07:30I put it again.
07:31Who knows, it will come back.
07:32There is a greed.
07:33What happens in the mind is that
07:34I recover the loss that I made.
07:36Because of recovery, the money kept going.
07:39Then I realized later that no.
07:41Whatever things are there,
07:43I don't have to do it because of recovery.
07:46I have to learn symmetrically.
07:48So, I focused on learning too.
07:51I talked to my friends who invest.
07:55So, I took some information.
07:57So, I was careful at that time.
07:59I stopped putting money.
08:00I started paper trading.
08:02So, Mr. Om Prakash,
08:04will you invest money in this again?
08:07What is the future planning after this loss?
08:10Because what are the people you know
08:12who have made a lot of money?
08:14You see such posts.
08:16What do you think about this?
08:19Now, in life,
08:20we will never invest money in future options.
08:23And whoever invests such money,
08:26we will refuse it.
08:27And there are many people I know
08:30who have lost 15 to 20 lakhs.
08:34Someone has lost up to 50 lakhs.
08:36I mean, they are close people.
08:38They are friends.
08:39And Mr. Om Prakash,
08:40tell me one thing very wonderful.
08:42For example, they get a call.
08:44As soon as you log in on any platform,
08:48like any platform,
08:50whether it is Dhan or Jirodha or Angel,
08:52anyone,
08:53as soon as you log in,
08:54your data,
08:55I don't know how it goes to them.
08:58And you start getting calls.
09:00And they call and say
09:02that you invest in this.
09:04I will guide you.
09:06If you invest this much money,
09:08then I will make this much percentage of you every day.
09:10After doing this,
09:11some people are smart,
09:12they don't get stuck.
09:13But those who are a little innocent,
09:15they get stuck.
09:16So you were innocent?
09:17Mr. Rajan, were you innocent?
09:20I didn't have a call,
09:22so I didn't give it to anyone.
09:24I was innocent.
09:26Okay, you saw it on social media.
09:28No, thank you very much,
09:30Mr. Om Prakash and Mr. Rajan.
09:32Keep investing.
09:35Take all the information and invest.
09:38This is important.
09:39Do what you understand.
09:41There are many options for investors.
09:43There is an option for a mutual fund.
09:45There is an option for direct equity.
09:47So that is an important thing.
09:48But you shared your story with us.
09:50Thank you very much for that.
09:52These were two investors that we spoke to.
09:54Om Prakash Singh and Rajan Bharti.
09:56And frankly, there are scores of them.
09:59There are too many to even count.
10:01Let me get now into the conversation.
10:03Sunil Subramaniam, Ajay Bagga,
10:05both market veterans.
10:06Rajesh Palviya,
10:08who is SPP, T&D at Access Securities.
10:12A regular feature on our shows as well.
10:15Thank you to all of you for your patience.
10:18Letting us talk first to the people who are actually hit.
10:24Mr. Bagga, let me start with you.
10:27A few things that we are learning for me.
10:29These are people who are looking,
10:33not necessarily just to make a quick buck,
10:36but looking to ride a wave which is very much there.
10:39They are sold success stories.
10:42Things don't change, Tamannaah.
10:46In 1991, there was an LC Gupta report.
10:50Not too many of the market people today were born
10:55when we were reading that report.
10:57And that was basically post the US 64,
11:00how 11% of Indian household savings
11:03had gone into the equity markets.
11:05And what they found, Tamannaah,
11:08that people were coming directly into equities.
11:11At that time, derivatives were not there in India.
11:14It was a very archaic way of telephone-based orders
11:18or going to the broker's office.
11:21And still people were coming directly,
11:24losing their pant and shirt,
11:26swearing off equities forever,
11:28and staying with fixed deposits and LIC products
11:33for the rest of their lives.
11:35We are seeing the same game play.
11:37Now it has become more gamified.
11:40It's become like a video game.
11:42Only thing is, it's causing suicides.
11:45It's causing financial distress.
11:47It's causing this huge amount of loss
11:50to the Indian retail investor
11:53of 1,90,000 crores plus over three years.
11:57So the story is the same.
11:59The basics are still the same.
12:02And the drivers of it are very similar.
12:05Access is easy.
12:07With the Wi-Fi and the internet revolution
12:10and the app-based revolution and zero commissions,
12:13access has become very easy.
12:16And people are getting caught up.
12:19And if you see SEBI's report,
12:21one interesting thing,
12:23most of the new traders are below 30 years.
12:27And they are from the non-top cities.
12:30So it's reaching Mofasal India.
12:32It's reaching tier two, tier three,
12:36for whom a lifetime Sunil Subramaniam spent
12:40in trying to get mutual funds into their wallets.
12:44And now they have reached,
12:46the F&O trading has reached on its own.
12:49No, because it takes too long.
12:51It takes too long to build a lifetime
12:54and put an SIP.
12:56And I was looking at some of the commentary
12:58on that report as well.
13:00Sunil Subramaniam, I'll come to you on that.
13:02And that's the simple thing.
13:03People don't have the patience for an SIP.
13:06And I actually still have Om Prakash and Rajan with me.
13:09I'm going to come back and ask them
13:11that why did they not think of an SIP?
13:13We'll get that view as well.
13:14But let me just get a take from Sunil Subramaniam.
13:17See, I agree largely with what Ajay was saying,
13:20but there's a subtle new dimension to this.
13:23And I would say, I would encourage the Manor
13:25us not to use the word investor for these people.
13:29Their intention is not to invest, that is,
13:32sow the seed and reap the fruits of the tree that grows.
13:36Their intention is to make a quick buck.
13:39And this comes more from a gambling instinct
13:42than from a wealth creation instinct.
13:45And when you then look at gambling,
13:47and I'm from a childhood,
13:48knowing my families and all,
13:49we have played Thinpatti.
13:50And you've seen other players play.
13:53The person who loses actually takes bigger and bigger bets.
13:56It's a typical gambling way of thinking
13:59that when you lose money,
14:01you put even more.
14:03With all due respect, Mr. Subramaniam,
14:06you're likening it to gambling.
14:08Maybe that instinct is there.
14:10I don't know how Om Prakashji and Rajanji feel about it.
14:14But gambling is banned in this country.
14:18You have not banned this.
14:20You have made it very easy for me.
14:22You're taking taxes from me.
14:24I'm paying fees for this.
14:27It's happening at the click of a button.
14:29So, today, to say every investor is a gambler,
14:33it's much easier to do this.
14:35Or every F&O investor is a gambler.
14:37No, no, Tamanna, please separate
14:39virtual fund investors, equity market investors.
14:42F&O investors.
14:43F&Os are not investors.
14:45They are out to make a quick buck.
14:47Their thought process is like a gambler.
14:49The day we look at these as gamblers,
14:51you will understand their psyche.
14:53And you will realize that, for example,
14:55in Singapore, in gambling houses,
14:57they attract the people and prevent them
14:59from coming afresh to the gambling houses.
15:01Ajay will bear this out for me.
15:03And you've got to treat these people.
15:05They want to make a quick buck.
15:06That's their intention.
15:07They are not investors by any stretch of imagination.
15:09And all the education that the mutual fund industry
15:12has done through mutual funds,
15:14and all of that is going beyond their ears,
15:16above their heads.
15:17Because they are not by nature.
15:19And the second thing,
15:20which is where I agree partly with Ajay,
15:22is the fact that today, alternative sources,
15:24a bank deposit barely meets the inflation.
15:26Yeah.
15:27So, you can't see,
15:28when he puts words alternative to put the money in.
15:30So, this comes from a get-rich-quick mindset.
15:33And one section of this,
15:35and you look at the Dream 11
15:36and other lottery-like of things on the games, right?
15:39How many subscribers come there,
15:41which is three times the mutual fund industry's investors.
15:43Okay.
15:44I'm just going to get Rajan's view on that.
15:46Rajan Bharti ji,
15:47did you hear what Sunil Subramaniam said?
15:50That you invest in mutual funds.
15:52This gambling,
15:53you come to FNO from the nature of gambling.
15:55What do you have to say about this?
15:57Yes, yes.
15:58So, these many things that happen,
16:00it depends.
16:01Like, if you look at anything,
16:03then you are influenced.
16:05If you look at anything,
16:07whether it's social media or anything,
16:10if you look at the things around you,
16:12then you are influenced by it.
16:14So, we saw,
16:15we don't know whether to invest or not.
16:18Have you ever heard that you should invest in SIP?
16:21And you put SIP.
16:22I have heard it now,
16:24when I started investing,
16:26or putting money,
16:28like Subramaniam ji,
16:30sorry for the pronunciation,
16:32but whatever your name is,
16:35whatever he is telling,
16:37he is telling very well,
16:39that people bring the mindset that
16:41we need money quick.
16:43We need money immediately.
16:45Like I put 10,000 rupees today,
16:47tomorrow I need 20,000 rupees.
16:49So, it will go like this.
16:51The money will go,
16:52it will definitely go.
16:53Correct, correct.
16:54Even if you don't understand in the initial stage,
16:56you will understand after the money leaves,
16:58but it will come.
17:00Until your well is not empty,
17:02you will not know.
17:04You bring a mindset that
17:06if you want to come in the field of investment,
17:09if you want to come in the field of trading,
17:11then you will have to learn,
17:13but you will have to be patient.
17:15Nothing will happen immediately.
17:17Great lesson that Rajan has learned.
17:19Rajesh Palviya,
17:21is it time to curb the retail investor
17:23from coming into F&O?
17:24Let's get to the point.
17:26The theoretical debate can go on.
17:29What next?
17:30There is a SEBI board meet at the end of this month.
17:32There might be some proposals.
17:34You are in the midst
17:36and the thick of this space.
17:38You understand it very well.
17:40You have heard from the investors.
17:43You have heard from mutual fund veterans.
17:45You have heard from investment veterans.
17:47Time to curb it.
17:48If you understand F&O, then you do it.
17:51Definitely.
17:53Until and unless you don't understand the F&O market,
17:56I think one should be restricted
17:58to participate in the F&O market.
18:00I think at the time of account opening,
18:02there is some risk profiling
18:04and some information we always gather
18:06when any new client enrolls himself
18:09or either on the trader or investor.
18:12That clearly defines his risk profile
18:16as well as the understanding on the market.
18:18If you are mentioning all wrong information
18:21at the time of your KYC,
18:23I think then that's the journey starts
18:25to losing the money.
18:27Rajesh, Rajesh, Rajesh, sorry, sorry.
18:29Apologies for interrupting.
18:30You heard these two people.
18:32This doesn't seem to be a wrong KYC start to the journey.
18:35This seems to be aggressive calls made to these people
18:38or at least one of the persons we spoke to
18:40and saying, please come on board.
18:43There doesn't seem to have been any intent
18:46to profile the risk appetite of the customer.
18:50Yeah, definitely.
18:51So they got a call
18:52because they don't know about the equity market
18:54and they got the call and they influenced
18:56by the conversation during phone
18:58or through social media
19:00and then they opened their account
19:02and they started their trading activity.
19:04But again, there is some things
19:07which one needs to understand
19:09before putting their money
19:11because F&O is not a simple thing
19:14because it requires a lot of understanding on the market
19:17because there is a time value
19:19of any of the trades which you are taking.
19:22So it's not a long-term investment.
19:24You have to predict the market
19:26and then it has to be executed in the time frame
19:29which you are deciding like weekly options
19:33So my question to you, sir, is
19:35so what do we do?
19:36Is it time to stop this?
19:38Because there are too many people
19:40if 93% of those investing in the last three years
19:44are making losses
19:45and three-fourths of them after making losses come back
19:48we just heard two people.
19:50We don't even have the space and time
19:52to put on all the people who have written into us.
19:55We've heard from two people who've said, okay
19:57they tried once, they tried a second time
19:59one of them tried a third time
20:01and then now, they've caught hold of it.
20:04Yeah, these two stories are clearly saying
20:07that most of the stories will be similar to this only
20:11and the people who are losing the money
20:13will be like these two guys only.
20:15I think there has to be some curve.
20:17There has to be some, I think
20:19there has to be some exam or something has to be there
20:22whether to judge the understanding on the market
20:25then only they should be allowed to participate in F&O market.
20:28Let me ask the tricky question to Ajay Bagga.
20:31We'll get the investors to do the exam.
20:35What about the ones soliciting their business
20:39on the other side of the phone
20:40and I'm not mentioning any one company or etc.
20:43But clearly, people are reaching out to them
20:46and the ones reaching out
20:48maybe don't really care whether they know
20:51or understand the risk or not.
20:53No, Tamanna, my thinking is a little more
20:58you know, I would say long term.
21:02If you suppress this, this will go underground.
21:06It will become Dabba trading.
21:08Every day you see those Ponzi schemes
21:112000 crores, 10,000 crores.
21:14People are catching similar profile people for this.
21:17At least this is coming...
21:19One minute, Mr. Om Prakash, I'm coming to you.
21:21Let's listen to him and then I'll come to you.
21:23Yes, Mr. Bagga.
21:26At least this is coming in a regulated market.
21:29We are coming to know about it
21:31and we can take action on this.
21:33If you now stop the entry of such people into such markets
21:39you're going to push them into the Dabba trading
21:42into the unorganized trading, into the Ponzi schemes
21:46which are also proliferating
21:48and no matter how strong the regulator
21:50it will keep on happening
21:52because these people are ahead of the regulator.
21:55So I think the issue has to be the product design.
21:59You can't have weekly expiries the way...
22:02You have to have products which meet a need.
22:05Derivatives started for institutional investors
22:09to hedge their exposure.
22:11Now you have made it a game.
22:13You have made it a gamble.
22:14You have made it speculation
22:16and you have opened it to anybody and everybody.
22:19You can have a net worth criteria.
22:22You can have an age criteria.
22:24You can have some other criteria.
22:27But if you are too harsh on this
22:29what the SEBI paper is talking about
22:32they will drive this into Dabba.
22:34Okay.
22:35You will lose the tax revenue also.
22:38Tax revenue but it's coming at a huge cost.
22:41Okay.
22:42Mr. Om Prakash, you wanted to say something.
22:45Should it be shut down?
22:48No.
22:49If you invest Rs. 20,000
22:52and you have an opportunity to earn Rs. 2,000-3,000 every day
22:56then who will want to lose it?
22:58I was also told to invest only Rs. 20,000.
23:02You will earn Rs. 2,000-3,000 every day.
23:06This is the only thing that forces people to come to FNO.
23:11And that's why we lost our money.
23:13What are you trying to say?
23:15Who should be held responsible for this?
23:18All the calls that come in
23:21the way they mislead people
23:23they don't give the right information.
23:25And even today, if I tell you the truth
23:27I get at least 8-10 calls a day.
23:31That you should go to FNO.
23:33Yes, go to FNO.
23:35Invest here.
23:36All the money will be recovered.
23:39So the whole game is still going on.
23:41Have you started SIP after all this?
23:46Yes, we are investing in equity.
23:49Why don't you invest in SIP?
23:51Experts invest your money in it.
23:53Don't you have to worry?
23:56We don't invest in SIP because we have lost so much money.
23:59We want to recover it through equity.
24:02And we are slowly learning about equity.
24:04We want all the people who are going to FNO
24:10they should switch to equity or SIP.
24:16Sunil Subramaniam, you want to respond to that?
24:19Exactly what I was saying, Tamanna.
24:21This is a gambler's instinct.
24:23He wants to use equities to recover the losses he made in FNO
24:26by putting more money.
24:28Does he know that equities are as risky as FNO?
24:31If you are just going to do speculative trading
24:33of buying a stock and selling a stock
24:35intraday, one day, buy now, book now, book later.
24:38This is the mentality that we want to curb.
24:41And financial education, investor awareness education
24:45that's the bottom of it.
24:47That's the long term.
24:48But I think the other aspect
24:50and what Ambarakash clearly mentioned here
24:52is that we need discipline among the selling community.
24:56There's a huge amount of mis-selling happening here.
24:59He does investments for long term.
25:01He does do investments for long term, he is saying.
25:05Long term.
25:06Not intraday.
25:09Not buy today, sell tomorrow.
25:11Only for long term investment.
25:13I think according to my experience
25:16there is no loss if you do equity for long term investment.
25:21Sir, equity is also subject to market risk.
25:24Like mutual funds.
25:26It's a market.
25:28It's a market.
25:29That's the biggest thing.
25:30But Sunil Subramaniam, last question to you
25:32because I've run out of time.
25:33Is it time for SEBI to do something?
25:35We keep talking about something should be done.
25:37Who has to do it and what is it?
25:39I think two people have to do it.
25:41I think the broking community
25:43has to self-regulate themselves.
25:45Put in a self-discipline process
25:47on how you go about.
25:48When the calls are done, how do you do?
25:50Do you promise guaranteed returns?
25:52Do you say quick money?
25:53How do you do?
25:54I think the self-discipline is step number one.
25:56And if they don't do that
25:58then I fear that SEBI will step in very harshly
26:01and put on strong mis-selling related penalties
26:03and punishments.
26:04And I think that's the only way this will go forward.
26:06So I think these two players,
26:08I think this and the fin-influencers
26:10who are the ones who are showcasing
26:12these kind of returns.
26:13I think SEBI is already aware of it.
26:15So I think that SEBI is already acting
26:17on the fin-influencer side multiply.
26:19They will double those steps according to me.
26:21But in the broking community,
26:22this is largely institutional brokers
26:24coming from good corporate houses.
26:27So I think the self-discipline is important.
26:29Demonstrate it in the public domain
26:31that we will take these actions
26:33like a Fedai does in the banking space,
26:36or an actor does in the mutual fund.
26:38I think the broking community has to take the responsibility.
26:41For one stop, incentivizing,
26:43signing on more people
26:45who don't know what they're doing.
26:47The one lakh rupees that they have lost
26:49means a lot to them.
26:51It's just not fair.
26:53So someone will have to step in.
26:55And I mean, pointing at the retail investor every time
26:58and saying that, you know, too bad.
27:00They made a bad decision.
27:02When there's an environment
27:03which is encouraging it to this extent,
27:06perhaps it's not fair either.
27:08But nevertheless, a lot to discuss,
27:10a lot to digest
27:11after this excellent conversation with all of you.
27:13Thank you so much.
27:14Thank you Om Prakashji, Rajanji, Rajesh, Sunil, Ajay.
27:17Great to have you on as always.
27:19We'll wait and watch, really,
27:21just to wrap up on the big story.
27:23We'll wait and watch
27:24and see what action really SEBI is taking.
27:26Will we just see one more report?
27:28Next year, we'll see a report,
27:29another report talking about losses
27:31again in the high 90s segment.
27:33Yes, we know most make losses.
27:35Does it deter from more coming in?
27:37Clearly not.
27:38That's all the time we have on The Big Story.
27:41Thank you so much for watching.
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