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00:00Sarah Foskey, F-A-U-S-K-E.
00:06My background is 15 years of law enforcement.
00:10Previous to that, I grew up working in the veterinary world,
00:13so I always had an interest in animals.
00:15Loof was a scent-specific dog.
00:18It didn't cross with any other forms of animals or drugs
00:22or anything like that, it was strictly human scent.
00:25Big indication was her with her tail and her animation,
00:29and that just takes time watching her track time and time and over again
00:33through trial and error, and you figure out this dog,
00:36and you know exactly what she's telling you.
00:38You know, a bloodhound's work,
00:41it can fill in a lot of blanks to people that have no answers.
00:44It's hard, it's heartbreaking work,
00:46but the closure you can give to a family is never-ending,
00:50and you're going to do something good with your dog,
00:53but the end results are never, in this type of situation,
00:56probably what you want.
00:58Previous to getting to the crime scene,
01:00the only thing I knew was that Teresa Halbach has been reported missing.
01:04I remember arriving on scene, and there was lots of vehicles.
01:08Going through the check-in process and then going to speak to Sheriff Poggle
01:12and told him I needed a scent article.
01:15A scent article is necessary when you're doing tracking,
01:19so I had them collect several pairs of shoes
01:22from the Halbach family of Teresa's.
01:25We work the area, and then there was this big berm,
01:28a very large berm that was just, you know,
01:32if you're looking at his garage, it was just to the right of the trailer.
01:35And it's back and forth and back and forth and back and forth,
01:39highly animated, head down, tail up.
01:43She didn't care if I was behind her, if it could have saved her life.
01:46And I said, she's here, I don't know how to explain it,
01:49I don't know how to tell you, but my dog's telling me that she's here.
01:56When Stephen Avery was first questioned on November 5th and 6th
02:00by the Marinette County investigators,
02:02one of the questions that he was asked was,
02:04when was the last time you burned anything?
02:06At that point, he didn't seem to recall having a fire on Monday night, October 31st.
02:11A few days later, they asked him the exact same question,
02:14and his memory still hadn't improved.
02:19The last time he burned anything was, like, last week,
02:22The last time he burned anything was, like, last week,
02:24or the week before, two weeks ago, three weeks ago.
02:34That was that week.
02:35During the week?
02:36Which week?
02:37Like, last week, maybe?
02:38No.
02:39While doing searches around Stephen's property and yard,
02:43human remains were found that consisted of burned and cremated bones.
02:50In and around a burn pit just behind Stephen's garage.
02:55I think it'd take a lot to burn a body.
02:58I think it'd take a couple days.
03:01I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
03:04I couldn't tell you either.
03:06But you would imagine that.
03:08Yeah.
03:09Especially with bones.
03:11Yeah.
03:12And I didn't have no fire there all week.
03:15Stephen Avery flat out denied having a fire at all that night.
03:19In fact, he denied having a fire that entire week.
03:23I only remember that Monday night.
03:27What Monday night before that?
03:30The day I went up to the hospital with Scott to see his mom.
03:34That day.
03:35What day was that?
03:37That was a Monday.
03:39The 31st?
03:41But I didn't have no fire there then.
03:43Not no Monday night.
03:44Yeah, I think you did.
03:47Were you home all night by yourself then?
03:50Yeah.
03:52So Stephen Avery told investigators that he was home alone all night, right?
03:56However, his memory suddenly improves when he speaks to Barb, his sister,
04:00who informs him that no, she remembers the fire that night,
04:03and she had even seen him standing next to it.
04:05And suddenly Stephen remembers that, oh yeah, that's right.
04:08Not only did I have a fire that night, but also I wasn't alone either.
04:13Because when we came home at 8 o'clock, you were standing outside by the fire.
04:18But Brendan was with me.
04:22Initially, Avery said he never burned anything on Halloween.
04:25Avery recalled differently in our next interview.
04:28I burned Monday night, but that was only brushing, I think, four tires.
04:35The sheriff says the contradictory statements are telling.
04:38He is apparently unable to remember what he tells one person one week
04:44and tells another reporter the next week.
04:47There were a lot of witnesses to him burning back there on October 31st.
04:51Bobby saw it when he left for work.
04:54Blaine said that he saw it when he got home from trick-or-treating.
04:58Barb, Barb's boyfriend.
05:00Do you know anybody else that saw that big fire?
05:03At first, nobody in the family remembers the fire.
05:06In the beginning, nobody really admitted that there was a fire.
05:09It never came up, really.
05:10When asked, Brendan didn't say it happened on Monday night.
05:14Blaine didn't really recall it.
05:16It's only until after the bones are found and re-interviewed.
05:19In some truthers' eyes, it makes more sense to them
05:23that the police brainwashed all of these parties
05:27into believing there was a fire on October 31st, when really there wasn't.
05:32We have to look at the timeline of statements,
05:35which are more accurate before police intimidated
05:37what their statement originally said, what it said after talking to police.
05:41Candy, she saw the big fire. Did you know that?
05:45I'm not denying that there was a fire.
05:47I want to see the words that they used, a big fire, or is that your words?
05:50I don't know.
05:51I could see the flames, and it's like, holy man, he has a huge fire down there.
05:55I don't understand how a house couldn't have melted.
05:58So she shows up, his last seen walking to Avery's trailer,
06:02a trailer he says she was never in,
06:04and her ashes, her burnt bone fragments, are found in his backyard,
06:08and she disappeared off the face of the earth from that moment on.
06:12Some of these guilters desperately cling to certain narratives
06:16and pretend evidence is legitimate.
06:19Some people are not just going to be brain-dead and buy,
06:22oh, well, they admitted it.
06:24It's crazy how it's just two different opinions always
06:29on any information that comes out.
06:32For truthers, it's 100% exculpatory for Stephen.
06:36It points to other parties, but never Stephen.
06:39For guilters, it's just another thing that proves guilt,
06:42and it's always Stephen, he did it, he's guilty.
06:46So you have completely opposite opinions.
06:52I try to keep my office as organized as possible
06:55so that when I'm working on something specific, I have it at my fingertips.
06:59This is my binder of all the research that I've done on the jail calls,
07:03and they start from Jodi calling Stephen when she was in jail
07:07prior to Teresa's murder up until 2007
07:12when Stephen's trial was taking place.
07:15Hours and hours and hours of time just listening to these calls.
07:20In general, it was like looking for a needle in a haystack,
07:23trying to find anything of interest.
07:26This call is subject to monitoring and recording.
07:29Thank you for using Evercom.
07:31I love of my life.
07:33Is this the first time it rang?
07:36Mmm, no.
07:39There was a phone call with Jodi on the evening of Halloween,
07:44the day Teresa was killed.
07:46Stephen had told law enforcement that he was in the house
07:50by the time Jodi called.
07:52That's why I was in bed last night.
07:54I don't know. I don't know.
07:56I thought it was somewhere down there.
07:58It was down there. There was a TV on it.
08:01What did you watch?
08:03He was, you know, bad watching a porn movie.
08:07Like sex programs.
08:09Sex programs? Like pornography?
08:18I'm just working out here.
08:21He clearly wasn't in the house at that time.
08:23When Jodi called, he was outside,
08:26and he was talking about his soda.
08:34So he also says in this call...
08:40I'm cleaning up the yard a little bit.
08:42He never told officers that.
08:44He told the officers that he was in the house watching TV that night.
08:49Stephen certainly appears to be confused
08:51about any incriminating events that took place on October 31st.
08:54It seems to be actually a trend.
08:56He can't seem to remember anything
08:58until somebody else remembers something first,
09:00from first saying that Teresa never showed up
09:03and that he didn't have a fire that night
09:05to now saying, OK, no, Teresa actually did show up,
09:08and actually I did have a fire, but Brendan was with me.
09:12That's another thing.
09:13Why didn't Stephen tell investigators
09:15about Brendan being with him that night originally?
09:17Because Brendan should have been his alibi.
09:19Wouldn't Stephen want them to go talk to Brendan
09:22so that he could confirm everything that Stephen said happened that night?
09:26If nothing happened, that is, why not say that right away?
09:30Don't forget that investigators didn't actually find out
09:32about Brendan being at the fire until Brendan told them,
09:35which was almost four months later.
09:39OK.
09:43Looks good to me.
09:46Todd, did you want to maybe draw the fire pit?
09:50Let's do that. That's a good idea.
09:53What is depicted in Exhibit 210?
09:56This is a drawing he did of the burn pit area.
10:00He's got the garage.
10:01He correctly drew out where the burn pit was.
10:05There's the whole area.
10:08Mm-hm.
10:11Was the dog there yet at that time?
10:13Yeah, the dog was like...
10:16Draw the dog house, where the dog house is.
10:24This is the area that we were attempting to search,
10:26and this is a dog house here behind the garage.
10:29And the dog pretty much had free reign of this area.
10:34There was a junkyard dog there,
10:36and this junkyard dog was named Bear,
10:38and it was none too friendly.
10:40And what that caused was a lot of our searchers
10:43not to get near that area, and especially searchers with dogs.
10:47My dog tried to get to a specific area behind the garage
10:51and tried multiple times,
10:53but Bear was making it impossible to do so.
10:56Basically, the dog was vicious.
10:59It came at us, barked.
11:01I actually stood by with my weapon drawn
11:04as Detective Remeker attempted to get into there.
11:07That was a mean, mean dog.
11:10There was no way to search it with that dog there.
11:15So you chose not to search it?
11:17Correct.
11:18We should have removed that dog even sooner.
11:21Her dog was definitely scenting something in that area.
11:24You know, dogs aren't biased.
11:26Dogs aren't going to fabricate a report.
11:28Dogs sniff what they sniff.
11:30They're trained.
11:31They're pretty darn good at it.
11:33Canines, they're very specific differences
11:37as far as canine work in dogs.
11:40Bloodhounds, they have the long ears.
11:42They have the big drooly mouths.
11:44They have the excess skin that when they bend over,
11:47it actually cones.
11:49Everybody laughs they're the McGruff dog,
11:51you know, the big detective dog,
11:53but they're built specifically for scent-specific work.
11:57The ears stir the area.
12:01The moisture brings up the scent,
12:03and the cone keeps it there.
12:05I trust dogs' noses more than cops
12:07that have been questioned before about framing an innocent man,
12:11so dogs' noses don't lie.
12:16So as of November 8th,
12:18the dog handlers are still on the property.
12:20At this point, the barrel's been collected.
12:23The key to Teresa Halbach's vehicle
12:25has been located in Steven Avery's bedroom,
12:28but the burn pit has not yet been discovered.
12:32None of the dogs alerted on or near Avery's burn pit.
12:38You're not going to make me believe that
12:40Manitowoc County can sniff out human bones
12:42and spot human bones better than Canaver dogs.
12:45Better at detecting human remains
12:47than the dog trained to do so.
12:49Which is what happened.
12:52Lieutenant Shepardson from the Kekona Police Department,
12:55he was taking notes, you know,
12:57mark on the map our locations of where we went.
13:00The most important track is track 6.
13:03In my opinion, that's the track where Teresa Halbach was found.
13:07We started at the Avery property by the van.
13:11And then we hit on the garage door,
13:14and I remember the notes from Lieutenant Shepardson
13:18And then we worked over this area
13:21and tried to get behind the garage,
13:23but behind this area is where Bear was,
13:25and my dog really didn't want anything to do with him.
13:28Worked up to the Avery trailer porch,
13:31indicated on one of the doors,
13:33came back, tried to once again get to the burn pit area,
13:37but Bear was there.
13:39And then we hit on the garage door,
13:42and I remember the notes from Lieutenant Shepardson
13:45that Bear was there.
13:47Worked down to the Cuss Road area.
13:53Worked our way through the cul-de-sac,
13:56some hunting shacks, and there's some open ponds.
13:59She'd go in the water and come out,
14:01show some indication of interest.
14:03It's believed the ashes from Teresa's body
14:06were pooling in one of the ponds in the quarry,
14:10but the dog had probably the most animation
14:13on that berm right by Stephen Avery's house.
14:16She just kept on zigzagging up and down this berm,
14:19up and down this berm.
14:21Shepardson, who was with me, we were both floored
14:24because her indication, her animation up on this berm.
14:27I remember looking at him going, I found her, she's here.
14:31I got goosebumps right now.
14:33You know, imagine having a huge fire,
14:36and you have wind blowing her ash into that berm
14:39because it was above all the other grade,
14:41and that's also why she was probably hitting
14:43and had interest in those ponds.
14:45That's where it's going to hang up.
14:47They had alerts in other areas,
14:49but the strongest reaction to Teresa's remains is right there.
14:53My dog again comes back near the bear area
14:58and then cuts through the junkyard,
15:01and we ended up where the vehicle was located at.
15:08You know Louf's track walked right to the SUV, right?
15:13And it should. It should, right?
15:15From Stephen Avery's...
15:17Don't lie. It was from the crusher to the SUV, 150 yards away.
15:20Don't say it came from the trailer.
15:22The Louf started at the crusher.
15:24Oh, no, no, no. You don't know the track
15:26where Louf went from Stephen's trailer
15:28and ended up right where the SUV was found.
15:31You mean around the quarries?
15:33Uh-huh. Around the Avery property.
15:35You know why you don't know about that one?
15:37Because they didn't want you to know that.
15:39You saw what they wanted you to see.
15:41In making a murder, you never hear about the fact
15:44that the beginning of that trail started at Barb's van,
15:47went to the garage, went to Stephen's back door.
15:51How do you get her outside?
15:53Is this when you carry her, when you say you carried her?
15:56Yeah.
15:58What part of her body did you carry?
16:00The feet.
16:02And Stephen did what?
16:05And what door did you go out on?
16:15The dog went to Stephen Avery's back door on several tracks.
16:19So Louf alerted twice on Stephen's back door.
16:22But how could that be?
16:24Because Stephen said that he met Therese outside by the van.
16:26She was never near the door.
16:28So how could he possibly explain that away?
16:30Well, I don't think he can,
16:32and I think that's why it wasn't ever brought up at the trial.
16:35I believe that the reason I didn't have to testify
16:38is there's such a standing courtroom rulings
16:41behind bloodhound evidence.
16:43There's not a whole lot fighting it.
16:46I think they were definitely afraid of the findings
16:49that Louf did that day.
16:51She would have testified that Louf found Theresa
16:54within yards of the burn pit.
16:57She's within 25 yards. She's here.
17:01Very hard to explain the emotions that go with that,
17:04but she was definitely on that berm.
17:07And I remember coming back,
17:09and I stressed getting rid of the dog, getting rid of Bear.
17:18He's got the doghouse drawn in right here,
17:21and here was that dugout impression.
17:25And where did you put her body?
17:27Did you draw it in there?
17:31He drew in where they put Theresa.
17:34That's exactly where the bones were found,
17:37was within this area here.
17:41I estimated this pile of dirt to be 30 feet by 30 feet.
17:45In the center of this is a burn pit right here.
17:49I described that as being 6 feet in rectangular shape.
17:54The bone was out here that I initially looked at.
17:58I went to the burn pit, walked over.
18:00This is where I saw charred debris
18:02to include what I believe to be bone fragments,
18:06a shovel, the large dog.
18:10Approximately what time did you begin to assist
18:14with the sifting of the material from the burn pit?
18:19That was about 3 p.m.
18:21The burn pit bones were discovered November 8th
18:25after they were able to remove Avery's very aggressive dog.
18:30I have had some experience with excavating grave sites before,
18:34so I knew how to dig into the material we wanted to sift
18:40without bashing it up and ruining it.
18:43The burn pit, you first have to start with the 8th,
18:46which was when the crime lab first did their sifting.
18:49They collected anything that looked like potential human bones.
18:54Quite often they would ask me, does this look like a bone?
18:57I said, if there's any question, put it in the box.
19:00And then the things that weren't collected, they were put in a tarp.
19:05The bits that fell through the screen, we put a tarp under there
19:09and saved those for later analysis if needed.
19:13We left other items that we found there,
19:16the shovel, the hammer, the screwdriver,
19:20that was burned out, framed, and other things were left at the scene.
19:24The scene was covered with a tarp.
19:26And my decision was, if this turned out to be Teresa Halbeck,
19:30that we should then come back and more thoroughly examine the scene.
19:34You know, the decision at that point was, do we have human bones?
19:38There's some questions raised about the coroner from Manitowoc County
19:43not being notified necessarily immediately after finding the bones
19:48or maybe even a little while after that.
19:50In this case, what would a coroner have done?
19:54Look at a bunch of bones.
19:56Hang on.
19:57Okay, go ahead.
19:58What would she have said?
19:59What would she have said with that pile of bones there?
20:02Well, you being a DA, you know what the coroner's job is, right?
20:05Yeah.
20:06A lot more than I do.
20:07I don't know that.
20:08Well, I'm telling you.
20:10And I'm telling you that there was no reason legally for her
20:14to have walked on to a scene where there are these burned cremains.
20:23Do you think she would have just looked at it
20:25or would she have done some kind of maybe gritting or something?
20:28What the hell does she know about gritting?
20:30Well, okay.
20:31You don't know.
20:32Look, a coroner is not a medical professional
20:35and certainly not a law enforcement professional
20:37where she would do any kind of gritting or any kind of processing of the scene.
20:43So why does the law have it that it should be the person to call
20:46if you can just decide, ah, I don't need them?
20:49In Wisconsin, when you have a death scene,
20:51the coroner's to be notified by law and come to the scene.
20:56Ultimately, the coroner needs to go in
20:59and their purpose is to declare the person dead.
21:05That should be the rule, but this wasn't a normal situation.
21:08I mean, there wasn't a body in the burn pit.
21:11The coroner wouldn't come there because, A,
21:13we don't know that it's Teresa Halbach,
21:15so how's she going to pronounce anybody dead?
21:18There's no way you don't know who it is.
21:20Sure.
21:21If we have a body, then we would call a coroner
21:23just to confirm that they are deceased.
21:25But in this case, or in any case where there might be just bones,
21:28it's not a necessity at this point.
21:30There's a bunch of potential bones that could be human.
21:33You need a forensic anthropologist to identify them.
21:37Did, to your knowledge, did Mr. Fassbender
21:41call a forensic anthropologist out to the scene of the burn pit?
21:47Not to my knowledge.
21:49Okay.
21:50The manner in which these remains were recovered was critical,
21:56both to the defense and to the truth,
21:59and hindered because, in large part,
22:04we did not have a forensic anthropologist or pathologist at the scene.
22:10Crime Lab, really, they're forensic scientists.
22:12They're not arson investigators.
22:14That's not where it ends, though.
22:16It still needs to be rescreened by an expert.
22:19In the absence of remains that could be subject to a traditional autopsy,
22:28then really the forensic anthropologist is the only one
22:33who can offer such information.
22:40We generally use forensic anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg,
22:46but she was out of state at that time.
22:48When it comes to forensic anthropologists,
22:50they can either come to the scene,
22:52or you can bring what you suspect are human remains to them.
22:54So it isn't something that we always have on a regular basis.
22:57It depends on the circumstances that we have.
23:00They didn't do in-depth processing.
23:02They were just trying to collect enough to get that sent off to the Crime Lab.
23:06The sifting process went on until just about dark.
23:11Because of the darkness, we're trying to retrieve as much of the bones
23:15that we could recognize.
23:18Don't you think that that would change the entire direction of the investigation?
23:23Would really hinge on that decision, whether or not those are her bones or not?
23:28Do we still have to keep searching, or do we have a homicide on our hands right now?
23:33What do you think?
23:35Quite frankly, we don't know if Theresa Hallbeck is alive or dead.
23:39So I had made the decision that we need to get these bones off to the Crime Lab
23:48to determine whether or not these bones were human bones and belonged to Theresa Hallbeck.
23:53These items were taken down to Madison,
23:56and a retired forensic anthropologist looked at them
23:59and deemed that it was a female, approximate age of, I think, 30 or something like that.
24:05Adult female, is what he said, and gave an approximate age.
24:11So we're thinking, have we found Theresa at that point?
24:21Your first day back at work would have been the 10th?
24:24Would have been Thursday, November 10th of 05.
24:27Leslie Eisenberg did actually look at anything that was collected.
24:32Those items were sent directly to her.
24:34I opened a box to find many blackened, highly fragmented, and incomplete human bone fragments.
24:45Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, a forensic anthropologist,
24:49she was able to take all these bones that were laid out and show everybody how they all went together.
24:57We recovered the left nasal bone.
25:00We also have the entire, or virtually the entire, right cheekbone,
25:05as well as a portion of the left cheekbone.
25:10Essentially every part of the body.
25:12Not every bone in the body, but represented every part of the body.
25:20Let me ask you a question. How come there's not a single picture of the bones in the burn pit?
25:23You keep asking me questions when I ask you questions. I hope you don't answer mine.
25:28When you say you didn't take any photos, you didn't see anyone else taking photos either?
25:32I did not, no.
25:34Well, normally what they do is they take photographs and then they'll grid it.
25:37So it's clandestine grave site processing is what it is.
25:40They grid it, they photograph it, and then they sift it, and then they collect the evidence.
25:46We examine the scene or remove the stuff down to the ground surface.
25:50We do not dig into the ground.
25:53The way I look at it, it's more of an open grave site where it has been disturbed,
25:58whereas one that's closed, where you have to start digging to find more evidence.
26:02This evidence was right on top, so I can understand why they didn't grid it,
26:05because everything's kind of above the ground.
26:08All he had was a pile of ash, so he sifted them and collected what he thought were some kind of bones.
26:13I still think that there should have been pictures taken before anybody touched the area.
26:16I agree.
26:17If I want to be critical, which I have many a times, that it wasn't perfect,
26:21that there were mistakes, I'll admit to mistakes made.
26:26It blew my mind.
26:28There is not one in-situ photograph showing the finding of human remains in the burn pit.
26:37I've been a scientist for 30 years.
26:40The number one thing you do before you touch anything is you photograph it.
26:46You always take photos before you start processing.
26:51That would help you maybe place the body in a certain position,
26:55but if someone's moving around the body, then it doesn't really matter.
27:00They're not going to do as in-depth photos, because if the evidence has been moved,
27:07then it's not in its original position, so why photograph it, I guess.
27:12In this particular case, given the burned fragments, the dark color,
27:20while photography often accompanies this kind of endeavor,
27:26photography in this case may not have been all that helpful
27:29in terms of discriminating one fragment from another.
27:33Now, two days later, there were photos taken when the arson guys went in there and reexamined the area.
27:43The Burn Pit
27:51Well, the first thing we did is we documented it with photographs,
27:55and then there were some evidence technicians from the city of Manitowoc police department there,
28:00so I asked them to do a grid search of the perimeter of that raised soil area.
28:06We then proceeded into this depression that's been called the burn pit.
28:11I divided that pit in half visually, east and west, and we moved in from its perimeter,
28:18the edge of it on our hands and knees, and moved through that,
28:22and removing items that we suspected would be evidence.
28:25There was this big ball of steel belt strands.
28:29You put her on the fire?
28:30Mm-hmm.
28:31And what do you do once she's on the fire?
28:33We threw some tires on top of her and some branches.
28:38Barbara had five tires over there, and I burned four of them, and there was still one laying there.
28:46But that was done in no time.
28:49I only burned one at a time.
28:52Do tires burn real fast?
28:55I know they smell real bad, right?
28:57Yeah.
28:59We smoked a lot.
29:02I don't know, within 15 minutes, that tire was gone.
29:08I'd already burned four of them.
29:10So I had five of them and five of this golf cart, and I just got them on the way.
29:16It just seemed odd that you just happened to be burning tires on the same day that this happened.
29:24What time did you go home to your place that night?
29:29About 9.30.
29:32Was Steven out there when you went home?
29:35Yeah.
29:38Because he said he was going to watch the fire until it burnt down a little bit more.
29:44We even have other witnesses seeing Avery after Brendan went home, still at this fire, still standing there looking at it.
29:53Avery was seen by his nephew, Blaine.
29:55Standing by that fire as late as 11 o'clock, 11.30 at night.
29:59He was there. He had a fire. Her bones were found there.
30:03He told me they were probably sheep bones.
30:05He told many of us that.
30:08Why do you guys have dead sheep out there?
30:11Well, my dad used to have sheep in the yard.
30:14You know, and sometimes they die, and they just lay there.
30:20You know, and the bones would be there.
30:22That's when I figured, well, maybe they're a lot of sheep, you know.
30:25To me, it seems like a really inappropriate thing to say.
30:30Four tires and some brush ain't going to burn a body.
30:35See here, it's all open. Ain't going to get that hot.
30:39Except for maybe when I throw a tire in.
30:42Basically, when the fire's all done, I assume Steven went out there and raked that into a big ball.
30:47Pieces, small fragments of bones were found intermingled with tire wires.
30:52I noticed what I believe to be skull fragments in that debris
30:58and intertwined within the steel-belted tires.
31:02It would be very difficult if Teresa was burned somewhere else
31:06and someone snuck on their property and sprinkled these bones around
31:09that they would be intertwined in the middle of this and throughout this ball.
31:13Could it be possible? I imagine maybe it could be possible, but very unlikely.
31:18So the defense's theory was that somebody had killed Teresa
31:22and then gathered her bones and dropped them in Steven Avery's backyard.
31:26I think when you've heard it all,
31:29you'll conclude that it's at least most likely, more probable,
31:36that the bones were moved to Steven Avery's backyard.
31:41To Steven Avery's burn area, not burned there and moved from that area.
31:48In Making a Murderer, they show you testimony about the bones found in Avery's burn pit.
31:55Are you able to offer an opinion about where these human remains were burned?
32:02No, I'm not.
32:03They present the defense expert saying that in his opinion,
32:09in general, most of the bones, when being transported,
32:13end up in the place where they were moved to, not moved from.
32:16In those cases, in fact, the actual location where the bones have been moved to
32:23tends to be the location where most of the remains are.
32:27He actually never examined any actual evidence.
32:30He looked at pictures. He looked at Dr. Eisenberg.
32:34He looked at her pictures and drew his conclusions.
32:37The defense said that the bones had been moved.
32:41There was no doubt the bones were moved from the burn pit to the burn barrel
32:45that was about 150 feet away in the Janda backyard.
32:49There is evidence from the Avery property that there was transport of human bone
32:57and I believe that transport occurred from the original burn pit
33:03and adjacent areas to barrel number two.
33:07What they don't tell you is that the bones found in Avery's burn pit were tiny.
33:13These were bones that were just one inch, that were even less than that.
33:17Much of it was, in some cases, was the size of half of your little fingernail, if you will.
33:22And in the burn barrel, there were actually only four pieces of larger bone.
33:27In general, little bit bigger bone fragments from the barrel than from the burn area.
33:34Yeah, they were noticeably larger.
33:36The only bones that were found in that burn barrel were larger bones,
33:40as if somebody had seen them in the burn pit and needed them to go away.
33:44I'm not a detective, but I think that it probably makes the most sense
33:48that someone killed Teresa and then burned her in the burn pit
33:52and when they were done, they collected the larger bones, moved them somewhere else,
33:56but missed the tiny little fragments that probably just appeared like ash to them.
34:00Based on my archeological experience and the volume of human,
34:06burned human bone fragments behind the garage,
34:09I find it highly unlikely that that was not the primary burn location.
34:15Alright, but I guess that rests on an opinion that
34:18transport in a barrel or some other container and being poured out
34:26would have done more damage to those human bone fragments than shoveling,
34:31sifting, putting into a box and transporting to Madison would have done?
34:36I really don't know.
34:38You don't know one way or the other?
34:40That's correct.
34:42There's a theory out there of Teresa was eventually moved,
34:44her bones were placed in that area of the burn pit.
34:48To go back, I guess, to the burn next to the Avery property,
34:52where Louf was super animated.
34:54In this case, if you're burning,
34:59that sounds horrible to say, but in the burning of a human body,
35:03those skin cells, you know, muscle tissue, it's all being burned and blown.
35:10So that's still going to hold that scent.
35:12Versus if you just dump bones in there, it's not going to hold that scent.
35:17A lot of people reference the old Peanuts characters, and you know Pigpen?
35:22How when you'd walk, you'd have this big trail of dust behind you.
35:25So that's basically what bloodhounds, it's all skin cells.
35:30That dog would not have that reaction on that berm
35:35if somebody planted the bones there.
35:37She was there, and the rest of her that went up in the air was blown.
36:08The clothes, it's full of the stuff a blood dog would take cleaned up.
36:14In terms of your examination of the items from the burn pit itself,
36:22did you find evidence of clothing such as rivets or grommets or things?
36:29Yes. We recovered a couple of brass-colored rivets
36:34that, like what you might see in a pair of blue jeans or jean-type clothing.
36:40At least two rivets were found in that debris.
36:48Five rivets.
36:50There were tooth fragments, there were jean rivets.
36:54And what does the rivet say?
36:57The rivet is stamped Daisy Fuentes.
37:01The jury was able to look at photos of the rivets
37:05and knew that not only Teresa's bones were found there,
37:09but her clothing had been burned as well.
37:11What really stuck with me was on the stand
37:15when Teresa's little sister testified about how she knew
37:21Teresa had a pair of Daisy Fuentes jeans.
37:24How do you know that she had a pair of Daisy Fuentes jeans?
37:27Well, one day she showed me a new pair of jeans she had
37:32and I noticed that the brand was Daisy Fuentes.
37:35And I knew that Daisy Fuentes was an older person,
37:39so I told Teresa that she has old person jeans.
37:42And it just reminded me of my own brother
37:46and how he and I would tease each other when we were younger
37:49about the clothes we would wear.
37:51And, you know, I'm sure back then it was like Jenco jeans or something in the 90s.
37:54As those of us that are my age, you think Daisy Fuentes is an older person?
37:58Is that what you told her?
38:00She's not old, but she's not young.
38:04It's worth reminding that Brendan Dassey had confessed
38:08to burning Teresa Hallback's clothing,
38:10but you don't see anything about her clothing
38:13or the jean rivets in Making a Murderer,
38:15and it's not the only detail that they left out.
38:17Many people don't realize that other items were found in the burn area.
38:22One of them was Teresa's tooth.
38:28So what you have there are the remains of tooth number 31
38:32from which you made your comparison?
38:34Correct.
38:36All right.
38:38Doctor, do you have an opinion on whether the root fragments
38:41from tooth 31 recovered from the burn pit
38:43are consistent with the dental x-rays of Teresa Hallback?
38:47In my opinion, the remains are very consistent
38:50We had a forensic odontologist, a forensic dentist,
38:54come in, look at the x-rays of Teresa's teeth,
38:58compared it to one of the teeth that was found.
39:02Dr. Simley was able to piece together
39:06and compare with Teresa's x-rays from her family dentist.
39:11When you can take those fracture-matched pieces
39:14and pieces that I've re-associated and put back together
39:17and then compare them to the x-rays,
39:18and everything lines up.
39:22He couldn't say 100% that it was for sure hers
39:27because there was so much of it missing,
39:30but he did say that it was as close to matching her x-ray
39:35as he could get without actually saying it was 100% matched.
39:40You would have to be 100% beyond any doubt
39:44for you to make a positive identification.
39:46Correct. I'm very conservative in my opinion,
39:49and I just was reluctant to use the word positive.
39:52How close were you to making a positive identification
39:55in this particular case?
39:58I was very close.
40:01When you can superimpose evidence one on top of the other
40:05and they look to be as one fragment,
40:09you can't get much closer.
40:12Also left out regarding the bones in Stephen Avery's burn pit
40:17are the tools that were found around the pit.
40:21He brings the tools out too, like a shovel and a rake.
40:27There was a shovel, there was a rake, there was a screwdriver.
40:32Show me what he was doing.
40:35He showed me the other day.
40:37Like this, like that.
40:39What kind of stuff was he pushing around?
40:42Like the wood in that.
40:45Was he pushing her around at all?
40:47I don't know.
40:50The wood that was on the top and the cabinet.
40:54Brendan talked about Stephen using some implements on the fire.
40:59Like when the bones were left behind,
41:03he would try to take the shovel and try to break the bones
41:06apart.
41:08These tools found near the burn pit really corroborate Brendan's story
41:13that Avery was out there breaking up these bones,
41:16trying to break them down, trying to not get caught.
41:19He got more detailed that he used it to break up the fire
41:23and break up Teresa into smaller pieces.
41:27It's hard to say that, but into smaller pieces.
41:30And that after the fire was done,
41:33he was then in the process of trying to remove the bones
41:38and the cremains and spread them out in other places.
41:43Did he take some of her bones somewhere else?
41:47On the other side of the, like that,
41:51it was like in the back of the yard,
41:54there was like this steep hill there, like in the pit.
41:58There was some there that he threw there.
42:00Obviously we know human bones were found in the burn pit.
42:04Human bones were also found in a burn barrel
42:08and some believed to be human bones in the quarry.
42:12All three locations where bones were found,
42:16or possible human bones in the case of the quarry,
42:19were all burned to the same degree, the same amount of calcination.
42:24Stephen told Brendan he moved bones in an effort to
42:28get rid of them and put them in locations outside of Avery property.
42:34Did he tell you how he did that?
42:37He hid them in a bucket.
42:43And what I'm understanding is that in the back of both your yards
42:47or his yards, down toward into the pit over that area.
42:51In Lake Redon's pit.
42:54Over Don's pit.
42:56The simple fact is that he was doing it according to Brendan
43:00and logically you would do that, get rid of that evidence.
43:04It's important to note that at the time of the trial,
43:07the bones that were found in the quarry were not yet confirmed to be human
43:10and in many ways that sort of worked for the defense.
43:13Focusing here on the reasonable hypothesis,
43:16somebody else burned Teresa Hallbach's body elsewhere.
43:20Maybe in the quarry, maybe somewhere else.
43:24And then they used that burn barrel that was found on the Yonda's property
43:28as a container to transport the remains,
43:33as many as they could scoop in,
43:36to Mr. Avery's backyard.
43:39It wasn't until after the trial and after Making a Murderer premiered
43:43that it was confirmed that they were in fact human bones that were in that quarry.
43:47And not just in one location, by the way, but in several locations
43:50that weren't right next to each other.
43:52So that's pretty strong evidence to me to support
43:56that Brendan was telling officers exactly what Stephen had done
44:00and quite honestly the physical evidence supports that
44:03by having human bones in the quarry.
44:06That would have supported the state's theory that Stephen was removing her bones
44:09from his fire pit in order to get rid of evidence.
44:12To me it substantiates our case.
44:15It certainly doesn't substantiate someone burning Teresa totally in one location
44:19in the quarry or somewhere else.
44:22The guy that's doing that is not going to take the time,
44:25and it would be no reason to take time and spread them all over the quarry.
44:28He wants them in Stephen's pit.
44:35So my son's going to go to prison?
44:38Well, I don't know.
44:41What do you mean you don't know?
44:44Yes, he is going to. Life in prison he's going to get.
44:46And he's only 16.
44:49And what am I supposed to do?
44:52Why would he admit to something?
44:56What happened to Brendan Dassey was a very sad thing.
44:59Here you have a 16-year-old kid who didn't really understand
45:02the ramifications of what was going on.
45:05I told you all along, keep your fucking mouth shut.
45:08I didn't say anything.
45:11You didn't say nothing.
45:13I didn't say nothing.
45:16But every time with the kids, always talking, talking.
45:19The investigators and everything else.
45:22All you have to do is say, I don't want to talk to you.
45:25I've got a lawyer. And that's it.
45:28And where am I supposed to come up with the money for them? Where?
45:31They'd have to get a public defender for the kid.
45:34So along comes Len Kaczynski,
45:37a public defender in the state of Wisconsin.
45:39I heard that the nephew got arrested.
45:42I saw that on the media.
45:45And that Ralph Stegelski had been appointed to represent Mr. Dassey.
45:48I got a call from the state public defender's office
45:51saying that Stegelski had to withdraw from the case.
45:54And was I willing to take the case? And I said, sure.
45:57And what does his lawyer do but goes on a news program
46:01during an evening news broadcast
46:04and pretty much tells the public that his client is guilty?
46:06He's admitting his client's guilt both factually and morally
46:10in front of the press before he'd even spoken to his own client.
46:13I remember calling him as soon as I found out he had the case
46:16because I knew he was pretty friendly to the media.
46:19He kind of made it clear from the get-go that a plea would be an option,
46:23especially if the confession came in.
46:26He meant it to it. I can't change that.
46:30It's by his statement right there. He's got life.
46:33He's got life. And there ain't nothing I can do with that.
46:36There ain't nothing. Nobody can do.
46:39And Brendan didn't have a chance from that point on.
46:43He just did not have a chance.
46:49Coming up on Convicting a Murderer.
46:52Everybody knew they were not journalists.
46:54They were making a documentary. They had their angle.
46:57Once you start to examine the facts of the case
46:59and not just the docu-series interpretation of the facts,
47:01you realize that, yeah, he was manipulated,
47:04but it certainly wasn't by the cops.
47:07Don't go for a pre-bargain or this and that.
47:10Because you do that, you're hurting more than you like.
47:13He chose to listen to that and not accept the pleas.
47:16One of Stephen's more surprising allegations
47:19came in the form of a letter that Stephen wrote
47:21nearly six years after his trial.
47:23To put the case against me that I murdered Teresa Holbaugh.
47:27How does that make you feel?
47:28Makes me pretty mad. Why would he want to blame it on me?
47:31He knew the right decision to make.
47:33Could have saved her and didn't. Chose not to.
47:37He was the one person that could have saved her.