Bethel Church Ponzi Scheme - With Adam Short - Episode 196 Branham Research Podcast

2 days ago

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Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
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John invites Adam Short to discuss the problematic intersection of prophecy and finance within certain religious movements, comparing it to fortune-telling. The conversation touches on how mixing financial advice with spiritual prophecies can lead to dubious outcomes, particularly when church leaders encourage investments based on these predictions. A specific concern is raised about Bethel Church’s financial activities and its involvement in Iraq, hinting at possible hidden motivations or agendas that remain unresolved.

The dialogue transitions to a more personal note, reflecting on past interactions and the positive influence of Adam on the lives of a couple. The host expresses appreciation for Adam's help and contributions, underscoring the importance of their insights. The conversation concludes with a promotion of resources related to exposing the darker aspects of the New Apostolic Reformation and a mention of additional reading material on the topic, emphasizing the broader scope of the investigation into religious manipulation and influence.

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Transcript

00:00You

00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast.

00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research

00:42at william-branham.org. And today I have my very special guest, Adam Short.

00:48And Adam, I just earlier today, I mean, not two hours ago, had a interview with another

00:55person, a man and his wife, who said that they escaped the NAR because they had listened

01:02to your podcast that you did with me.

01:05Really?

01:06Yeah.

01:07I think they were already out, but mentally they were still in.

01:11And everything that you said just resonated and they mentioned you specifically.

01:16That's so cool.

01:18Yeah.

01:19It is really cool.

01:22It's really weird.

01:23Their story's a bit different.

01:24They're in another country and the church they're in probably isn't considered NAR,

01:30but their church is building the exact framework of the apostles and all of the NAR stuff they've

01:37got.

01:38And it's quite a story.

01:40So I don't know which is going to come out first, this one or that one.

01:43I think this one may actually go before it.

01:46But anyway, good to have you back.

01:49Yeah.

01:50Great to be back.

01:51Like I said, Friday's with John, man.

01:53It's the highlight of my week.

01:56Absolutely.

01:57We were talking – I was doing some research and I was digging into Cal Pierce because

02:04the whole thing just fascinates me.

02:06The God's generals thing in the NAR fascinates me.

02:09Of all of the guys that they could have chosen in that era, there were some really good Christian

02:14figures.

02:15They chose all the con artists for the God's generals.

02:18And then you have people like Cal Pierce in this healing rooms.

02:21They're trying to resurrect the John G. Lake thing.

02:24And it's hard for me to look at it and I don't know much about it other than the

02:29research that I have.

02:30But it's hard for me not to label it as a scam, which I'm not saying it is, but

02:34it's hard not to when they're taking one of the most notorious Christian scam artists

02:41of his decade and they're saying that, oh, I soaked his grave and now I've got the

02:46power of John G. Lake.

02:48Anyway, as I'm going through that research, I come across a newspaper article and here

02:53is Adam Short talking about the healing homes.

02:58Yeah, that was quite the full circle.

03:01And when you texted me that, I guess was it last week, you texted me.

03:06You're like, hey, is this you?

03:08And I'm like, yeah, that's me.

03:11That's me.

03:12What, 15 years ago, I guess it was 2008 or 2009 or something.

03:16And there's an article in the Reading Record Searchlight, which is the local

03:21newspaper in Reading, California, which is where Bethel is.

03:24And I used to live there from 2007 to 2011.

03:30And interestingly, that article was part of a project that the searchlight was

03:37doing at the time.

03:38They were trying to, as I understand it, this is what the reporter told me.

03:42As I recall, they were trying to get more insight into what was actually going on

03:47at Bethel, specifically in the context of the healing rooms, which Bethel does

03:53have its own healing rooms.

03:54You're talking about Cal Pierce and Cal Pierce is considered the sort of the

04:00patriarch, if you will, of the healing rooms movement.

04:05And I don't know all the backstory of how the healing rooms got established at

04:09Bethel.

04:10I think you have a lot of that history that you've researched.

04:13But Bethel had, and it still does, to my knowledge, have a healing room that's

04:20affiliated with the International Association of Healing Rooms, IAHR.

04:26That's a tongue twister.

04:27But back to the article.

04:29So they somehow, I don't know how they got connected with me, but they

04:33interviewed me in the article about certain healings that I actually

04:38witnessed firsthand and still know to this day they happened, still believe

04:44that they happened.

04:45And one of them was in Mexico City.

04:48One was in Reading.

04:51And I can think of others that weren't referenced in that article.

04:54And so now, fast-forwarding 15 years later, I'm post-church.

05:00I'm a post-church person now and have been for 13 years.

05:04Still believe in the Lord, still follow him, but have not really darkened the

05:07door of a church in a long time.

05:09It's wild to look back, John, on that time frame of your life where you did

05:16believe a lot of things that you don't believe the same anymore.

05:22But yet you still believe in the supernatural healing power of God, the

05:27miraculous power of God.

05:29But it's like peeling back the layers of what part of this was sort of these

05:39false constructs that were propped up by people that were money-hungry and

05:44power-hungry.

05:45And I think that's kind of some of what you may be alluding to here.

05:49Yeah.

05:50It's so complex, right?

05:52Because in the cults, you're taught a very black-or-white reality.

05:56It's either true, it's false.

05:58You're either a believer, you're an unbeliever.

06:00And it's more complicated than that in real life.

06:04I sometimes laugh when I look through the comment feeds because people will

06:08attack me having no idea what I believe on certain subjects and they'll say,

06:12well, you must be – one today said, well, you must be working for the

06:15Catholic Church because that's how they're indoctrinated.

06:19Oh, my gosh.

06:20That's quite the accusation.

06:23It's crazy.

06:24It said something like the Catholic Church was paying me to do the stuff

06:28that I do.

06:29Another common one I get is that you must not believe in divine healing

06:33because you're calling out the frauds and divine healing.

06:36And the thing of it is, for them, I get it.

06:39I was there.

06:40I had that same mentality.

06:41You either believe or you don't.

06:43It's true or false.

06:44But it's more complicated than that.

06:46My own father is a person who was in the healing lines and he claimed that he

06:51had healed, and I've got no reason to believe that he didn't.

06:54But there are a lot of frauds along with it, too.

06:58So, for me, it's not a black or white issue.

07:00There's a heck of a lot of gray.

07:02Oh, absolutely.

07:04And this is back to – my wife and I talk about this quite frequently,

07:08and it is the both-and continuum, right?

07:12It's the both-and spectrum.

07:16Just about everything lives in a continuum like that, where it's both-and.

07:22Probably the exception to that is the world of electricity,

07:26where the circuit is either off or on.

07:28I don't think there's really an in-between unless – I guess the in-between is if

07:32you have a spark that jumps across the positive and negative, the pole,

07:37and you have sort of both.

07:38It's off and on at the same time.

07:40But largely speaking, we're in a continuum.

07:43So, when you start to peel this stuff back and you're like,

07:47well, do I just throw it all out?

07:49And that's what I'm wrestling with.

07:50I'm wrestling with that all the time right now, especially as it's like every

07:54week we have another pastor that falls or that quote-unquote falls.

07:57I don't even like the word fall, but you know what I mean.

08:00Like the media says, well, another pastor has fallen into sexual immorality.

08:05And it's like you have more layers to face and work through and navigate.

08:11And so, it's like in our brain I think we're wired to just say, well,

08:17all that's bad.

08:18I just want to just – let me just throw it all away.

08:21Like this is all gobbledygook, you know, baloney, one big scam.

08:25And, I mean, to be fair, I don't blame it.

08:28I don't blame people one second for doing that.

08:30I've done that at times.

08:31I've said like, hey, just throw the whole thing out.

08:34But are there things that were actually genuine?

08:39I'm just asking the question because I'm still wrestling with that myself.

08:42Like I can tell you what my experience has been, right, and encountering the Lord

08:47and watching him heal people and, you know, things that I could not explain other

08:52than the fact that God did it.

08:54But when it comes to somebody else's experience or a leader in one of these

09:00organizations that is monetizing a structure, they're monetizing a structure.

09:07It's money and power.

09:10That right there is the part that we really need to scrutinize and examine,

09:15and I think that's what you're doing, which I love what you're doing.

09:18Like your work is so important to so many people that are still kind of –

09:23maybe they're one foot in the door, one foot out the door,

09:26or maybe they still have two feet, you know, in,

09:28or maybe they're starting to question or ask questions or consider like,

09:32is there any part of this that's off base?

09:35And so I think that's why conversations like this are so important.

09:38Yeah.

09:39I try for the most part to remain neutral because if you truly write it as

09:44historical content, you can't – you try to avoid your opinion.

09:48However, I focus – I lean towards the critical because there's so much of the

09:53non-critical out there that it's just – I'm trying to bring balance to the scale.

09:57But the problem that I have with all of these things that these guys are doing,

10:04they want you to have – they call it faith, and I have no problem with faith.

10:10You can – you know, people can be believers.

10:13But what they have framed as faith isn't really faith.

10:16They want you to have blind faith.

10:19In other words, I'm going to heal you, and you're going to go home,

10:22and you're going to still be sick as a dog, dying on your deathbed.

10:26You need to have positive confession and pretend that you're actually healed

10:30when you're not, and that's blind faith.

10:33That's not faith.

10:34Faith produces a result, and you believe because you expect that

10:39there's going to be something that happens.

10:41That's what faith is.

10:43And they've switched it into blind faith.

10:47And for me, you know, I have no problem saying that a miracle occurred.

10:52You know, things happen that I, too, cannot explain in some of these movements.

10:57But when they do happen – you and I had this conversation last week as well.

11:02When they do happen, there is a logical means to verify that it did.

11:09And we were throwing out some simple examples.

11:12Like in the Bible, it talks about the walls of Jericho falling.

11:15So in the Bible, this is this great miraculous event.

11:19Well, if you were there at that time, there would have been something that happened.

11:23God, you know, God may have induced it to happen,

11:27but there would have been something that happened that you could verify,

11:30okay, maybe it was an earthquake and the walls fell.

11:33Something happened that it fell.

11:35And there's a tangible result to what happened.

11:38Same with, you know, so somebody has a cancer and they get healed of cancer.

11:43They should be able to go in with a microscope or whatever is the tools

11:48and verify that, no, there's no cancer cells.

11:50It did get better.

11:52And they would also probably find that there was some sort of a, you know,

11:57I don't know how cancer healing works,

12:00but maybe there were some good cells that overtook some bad cells.

12:03We'll call it that.

12:04And the doctors can correct me on the comment feeds.

12:07But there's always a way to see, take what has happened,

12:14the thing that you had faith in, and then go backwards.

12:17The problem is they want you to go forward,

12:19but they never want you to return backwards to verify it.

12:22And for me, that's problematic,

12:25because if you require blind faith for your religion, it's not a real religion.

12:31You have a fictional religion.

12:33You bring up so much good stuff, man.

12:36And you brought up things, like in our conversation last week

12:39when we talked about this, things that I had not thought about before

12:42from that standpoint where it sort of revealed some of my thinking

12:46that I still have that's still baked in my brain, right?

12:49And so it's causing me to examine, well, what do I believe about this

12:55when a miracle happens in a person's life or, like you mentioned,

13:00in the case of Jericho, in a physical structure like a wall

13:04they built around a city and it fell down.

13:06It's recorded in the historical record that that happened.

13:10So what are the signs and verifiable sort of, I guess,

13:18marks that are left or breadcrumbs or whatever it is?

13:22And I think what you bring up about the cancer cells is a great example.

13:26I remember, and I told you about this in our conversation last week,

13:31there was a lady in Reading, and we would go every Thursday to her house.

13:36It was not a church service.

13:38It was actually our outreach with BSSM, which is Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry.

13:43So every Thursday we'd go out there.

13:45There was a group of us.

13:46It was this apartment complex, and there was a lady there,

13:50one of the residents, and she was older, I think probably 60 years or 70.

13:55I'm not sure exactly.

13:57And she had stage 4 lung cancer.

13:59And so every Thursday we'd go and we'd lay hands on her and we'd pray for her.

14:04And we had every intention to see her healed.

14:11One of the things we were taught at Bethel is there can be measures of healing,

14:16and I actually have seen that in my life.

14:18I've seen that happen in people where they have a measure of improvement.

14:25Maybe it's a 10% improvement.

14:27Maybe it's a 20% improvement.

14:29They couldn't do this before, but now they can do that.

14:32But for her, it wasn't like you could – if you've got stage 4 lung cancer,

14:38there's not a way to know if you're progressing or not,

14:42other than, to your point, to go back and get another MRI or X-ray

14:46or whatever it is that detects the cancerous tumors in the lungs.

14:51So we kept going week after week praying for her.

14:55And then one week we went, and she told us she had just been to the doctor,

14:59and they did a scan on her, and they did not find any cancer.

15:05Remember, this is not in a hyped-up church service

15:08where there's somebody on a microphone saying,

15:10oh, you're healed of cancer, blah, blah, blah.

15:13This is somebody who had visited the doctor after there had been repeated times of prayer,

15:20and the doctor told her that she didn't have cancer anymore.

15:24Now, what I wished we would have done that we didn't do is say,

15:28hey, can we see a copy, or can we see your X-ray or your MRI

15:33or whatever scan they do?

15:35Doctor in the comments can tell us.

15:38But we didn't do that.

15:40And that's what I want to mention and highlight as a flaw in what we were taught

15:46and what this movement is teaching.

15:48And I did not realize that I had this flaw until I talked to you last week.

15:52And I'm like, wow.

15:54And the flaw is we were actually – this was not like a blatant teaching,

16:00a byproduct, I think, of the teaching is this.

16:03If you need to go ask for a scan of or some type of verifiable evidence,

16:10whether it's an X-ray or some type of blood test or whatever,

16:13then you actually have less faith than you should.

16:19You shouldn't – so we were taught you shouldn't have to –

16:22you shouldn't ask for the verifiable evidence.

16:25Your faith should be sufficient to know that that person got healed,

16:28God broke in and did the thing, and it's done.

16:32So what's so ironic is, though, wouldn't it be faith, though,

16:39to go and get the verified evidence?

16:44It's the difference between faith and blind faith.

16:47They want you to have the blind faith.

16:49So I'm making the point, and I credit this to your questions, John,

16:57is that not faith?

16:59I mean, the Bible says that faith is the evidence of things unseen in Hebrews.

17:03I think I'm quoting that correctly.

17:05It's been a while since I've read it.

17:07It's the assurance of things – something to that effect.

17:10It's the evidence of things unseen.

17:12So you can see why the teaching is put forth that way,

17:16because it's like, well, you need to believe it without seeing it, right?

17:20But I don't know.

17:22I feel like I'm having a hard time articulating what I'm trying to say.

17:25Why is it bad to go ask for an X-ray?

17:28Like, if I have a health condition, and, you know, I do have a health condition,

17:34and I went to the doctor and they did a scan or a blood test,

17:38I actually could do that, and they could tell me my levels of X, Y, and Z

17:42are high, low, or medium.

17:45And is that a lack of faith, though?

17:48I think that's the question that we're asking.

17:50Yeah, and I don't think it is.

17:52I think the problem is they want you to have blind faith.

17:54So I'll simplify it for the audience.

17:57My wife goes to work every day, and she comes home about the same time.

18:03She's not here now.

18:05And I could take my phone and video camera the entire house

18:09and show solid proof that she is not in this house.

18:14But I have faith that she's going to come here,

18:16and I don't know when it is, 30, 45 minutes from now.

18:19I have faith that she's going to come in because I believe she is.

18:23And that is me having faith.

18:26She's not here now.

18:28When she arrives, I could take the same phone,

18:31and I could video camera her pulling into the driveway.

18:34And what they want you to do in these divine healing nonsense,

18:41say that she got delayed at work and say that she's going to be an hour later.

18:48Well, they want me to accept that she's here when she isn't.

18:54In other words, you're healed, go home, you're going to still be sick,

18:58but the healing will come later.

19:01And so they want you to claim your healing before it actually happens.

19:05So that's blind faith.

19:07But then they don't want anybody to go back and verify it.

19:12Like I'm doing when I'm recording, and she's not here,

19:15and then when she comes, that's evidence.

19:18It's not that I don't believe that she's – I mean, she's in my driveway.

19:21I believe she's here.

19:23I have faith that she's here because I see her in my driveway.

19:26But the way that they frame it, if she's not even in the house,

19:30she's not even in the city, they want you to believe that it happened,

19:34and they don't want you to verify that she's not here

19:37because other people will suddenly have questions.

19:40Yeah, the questions.

19:42So check this out.

19:43I just thought of something.

19:45That's a great way of describing it, way better than what I said.

19:49I was trying to mumble my way around in my southern accent over here, John.

19:52You simplified it.

19:55But here's what's crazy.

19:56Think about this.

19:57I don't know if I've thought of this before.

19:59This is a light bulb.

20:00I'm having a light bulb moment right now.

20:02And the light bulb is this.

20:05Think about Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke.

20:09Wasn't he a doctor?

20:11I believe he was, yeah.

20:13I believe Luke was a doctor.

20:14So here you have a disciple of Jesus, and Jesus was very intentional

20:18about who he picked as his disciples, right?

20:21Well, he picked a doctor.

20:24And Jesus knew full well that he was going to be doing

20:26some miraculous healings along the way, I'm sure.

20:29I'm sure he had some kind of idea.

20:31Hey, I'm probably going to be healing the sick, you know?

20:34And he picks this doctor.

20:36And it just so happens that one of the Gospels in our Bible

20:40is written by a doctor, which, if you think about it,

20:45can be considered a medical record, can it not?

20:48It's not just a historical record, but it's a medical record, isn't it?

20:51Because it's coming from a professional who is an expert in medicine.

20:58So my point is the very notion that we can't go look for verifiable evidence

21:09is an antithesis to the Gospel of Luke.

21:13Yeah.

21:15Well, and if you take it a step further, it's an antithesis to the entire Old Testament

21:19because the Old Testament contains prophets who had scribes,

21:23and they wrote down their prophecy before it happened,

21:26and then they had the chronologies, like the Book of Kings, etc.

21:30So they're logging what happened, and so they've got both sides of the equation.

21:36They've got here is the prophecy, here is what is coming,

21:39and then here is, as we see it, this is how history records it.

21:43And God doesn't punish people for wanting to look at the evidence that was supplied.

21:52Faith is the evidence of something unseen, back to my example.

21:55That's what I was trying to think of, yes.

21:56I can't see my wife.

21:57She's not here.

21:58But when she comes, I can certainly verify she's here.

22:01The evidence of things unseen.

22:03That's right.

22:04That's what it says.

22:05It actually uses the word evidence.

22:06Yeah, yeah.

22:07Oh, and by the way, a question for you.

22:09You mean so the Old Testament prophets didn't prophesy it after the fact

22:14and say that they had the encounter before?

22:17They didn't do like the guys in the latter reign?

22:20And by the way, I didn't make this up,

22:23but you know what that's called?

22:25It's called prophelying.

22:28But people do that stuff, man, where they pull that card.

22:30I'm so sick of that card.

22:32Well, so that's the funny part about all of this.

22:35And this hit me like a brick wall.

22:37You mentioned things that hit you.

22:39This was the biggest thing that hit me like a brick wall.

22:43A fortune teller is a person who tells your fortune.

22:46A fortune teller is somebody who you go to and say,

22:48I want to know my future.

22:50That's what a fortune teller is.

22:52Fortune telling was a horrendous thing if you read the Bible.

22:57Fortune tellers are evil people.

22:59A prophet is somebody who is a mouthpiece for God.

23:02Think of it like we're in like a Zoom recording, right?

23:06It's not Zoom, but it's something similar.

23:08So I am speaking, but I'm nowhere near you.

23:11The mouthpiece is your speaker that's in your computer.

23:14That's what a prophet is.

23:16A prophet is nothing but a mouthpiece.

23:19So sometimes it is future, but it's more,

23:23if you look at all of the prophecies,

23:26it's something that really impacts the spiritual lives of the people

23:30whenever it's futuristic.

23:32If you read through all of the prophecies,

23:34not all of it is futuristic.

23:36The Mosaic Law had two sides to it.

23:40If you do these things, you'll be blessed.

23:42If you do these things, you'll be cursed.

23:44Well, sometimes God's mouthpiece spoke about things in the past.

23:49Speaking through the prophets, he would say,

23:51because you did this, this is the curse that is coming.

23:54So the thing that hit me the hardest was

23:58we were falsely taught what a prophet even was

24:01because they wanted to create this.

24:04It was a scam.

24:05They wanted to create this scam that they could predict the future,

24:09and for the latter rain movement, that future was

24:12I know that you wrote on your card that your address is such and such,

24:15and I know that you wrote on your card that you had,

24:18that's a gimmick, man.

24:20That's not even prophecy.

24:21Yeah, that is a gimmick.

24:22Yes, it is.

24:23That's a used car salesman gimmick.

24:25Actually, it's worse because at least the used car salesman,

24:28at least to the used car salesman credit, right,

24:33to their credit, at least they have a car to sell

24:35or what looks like a car.

24:38But these guys that harvested prayer card information,

24:42and now we call it Facebook mining,

24:45from the stage, they've got the phone up there on the thing,

24:49and by the way, I listened to Jedediah's interview with you earlier today,

24:53and amazing, going through his story of knowing his dad, Bob,

25:01his dad prophesied over me years ago at his house in Kansas City,

25:06and to this day, I feel like he read my mail.

25:10And now knowing that that information came from somewhere else.

25:18You talk about a ton of bricks.

25:19That's a ton of bricks to hit you.

25:21Yeah, and the problem is I see being in the upper sides of all of this

25:26and being connected to other people, not even in the same cult,

25:30who were in the upper echelons.

25:33Many cult leaders have entire, back in the day,

25:36they had entire files, like paper files.

25:39One cult, the person was the file keeper,

25:43and they said they knew more about the people going to that church

25:47than the people knew about themselves.

25:49They had everything.

25:50Okay, and you wonder why there's a connection

25:53between those movements and the frickin' CIA.

25:58I mean, if they're keeping files on people,

26:00who else is keeping files on people?

26:03And I don't know how far you want to go down that road,

26:06but I mean, it sounds like espionage,

26:09and I'm getting kind of out there now,

26:11but that's what it sounds like.

26:14You're keeping files on people, and ultimately,

26:16probably to blackmail them and control them

26:19and take their money and whatever else.

26:22But anyway, that's the jaded side of it.

26:24All sorts of stuff.

26:25I mean, I've talked to many people now who,

26:28through the mouth of I don't know how many,

26:31probably 10, 15 witnesses now,

26:33Paul Cain recorded every conversation,

26:35and he kept the recordings.

26:37And when you live a life like this

26:39where you have all of the information about somebody,

26:42and the prophecies are so incredibly vague and silly,

26:46like they have nothing to do with their salvation, right?

26:50It's just ridiculous stuff.

26:52He's got all the information.

26:54He can talk to other people who know a specific person,

26:57and then from the platform, he can say whatever he wants,

27:00and that person themselves would be like,

27:02well, how did he know that?

27:03I never told him.

27:04Well, of course you didn't.

27:05Somebody else told him.

27:07And they keep these files because they can get in your head

27:10by thinking they're divinely receiving words of knowledge

27:15or whatever is the nonsense they call it.

27:18But instead, like you said, it's just simple espionage.

27:21And this is back to my personal experience.

27:25This is where it's so hard,

27:28because I've actually experienced the legitimate word of knowledge before.

27:33And I won't go into the story right now,

27:36but it will blow your mind, actually.

27:39And it was information that there's no way I could have known this

27:44about a random person that was 400 miles away in another state.

27:49And so I make the point like, yeah,

27:55there's all this gimmickry going on here.

27:59And if you were to say, well, what percentage of it is a hoax

28:03and what percentage of it is real?

28:04I don't know.

28:05Is it 80-20?

28:06I have no idea.

28:07But somewhere out there, there's a real version of this that came from God.

28:12And that's what's hard.

28:15That's what's really hard about this is, like,

28:18you have real gifts of the Spirit that the Bible talks about.

28:21You have real miracles.

28:22You have real healings.

28:23You have real encounters.

28:25People encountered angels in the Bible that actually happened.

28:29Bob Jones' description of Emma is different than what we read about in the Bible.

28:36It's a counterfeit of what we read about in the Bible.

28:41So there's real stuff there.

28:43But it's hard, because when you've been neck deep in these movements,

28:48I still have a hard time with it.

28:52Like I mentioned this last time, when I listen to some of these guys talk,

28:55it's like you want to believe that what they're saying is real and true,

28:59and I still struggle with that.

29:01So I don't know if that made any sense, but just trying to, like,

29:03pick apart and navigate the real from the fake,

29:08and I guess that's where discernment becomes so important.

29:11Yeah.

29:12Well, back to the simplified example.

29:15If my wife, say 515, whatever time,

29:18if she says that she's going to be here every time at 515,

29:21and I go out there and she's there at exactly 515,

29:25I can trust what she's saying.

29:27But if she says it and then continually is two hours late, three hours late,

29:31four hours late, never does what they're saying,

29:34but keeps saying that they are, I'm not going to believe,

29:38I'm not going to trust what she's saying.

29:40But the problem is, because we're in churches,

29:43and these leaders are saying things that is complete nonsense,

29:47easily provable false in many cases,

29:50but they're telling you that if you go investigate what I'm saying,

29:54if you try to find out whether it's true or not,

29:57you don't have faith, so you're a sinner.

30:00Well, they've convinced people not to do their due diligence

30:05on whether or not they're even trustworthy.

30:07And so then it comes, beyond that, it goes to a bigger problem.

30:11If you can't trust the preacher, then after you leave that church,

30:15you have a hard time trusting any preacher.

30:17So they actually burn people for religion in general.

30:20Yeah. Oh, it's so true.

30:22Yeah, I've experienced some of that myself,

30:24like in various waves and degrees and seasons.

30:27Just the overall distrust, mistrust of church leaders in general,

30:33and especially after this past year with Mike Bickle and IHOP,

30:36it's like a whole other round of that.

30:38Like just every day it's like getting slammed in the face

30:42with another revelation of just absolute evil.

30:48So, yeah, it's easy to come away from that and say,

30:51well, gosh, they must all be that way.

30:53And I've said that myself.

30:54They must all be bad, but there are some good ones out there for sure.

30:58And most of the good ones out there are not on the visible platforms.

31:02They're just, you know, they're probably pastors of churches that are small.

31:06They don't have a big following, and they're relatively unknown,

31:09and they're just doing the right thing over and over again every day

31:12and following God and helping people believe in him.

31:16Yeah. I know some good pastors, too,

31:19and men who have escaped the cult who were ministers in the cult

31:23and then they left and they're no longer.

31:26I struggle to trust them because they were ministers in the cult,

31:29and how do you deceive somebody for this long?

31:32But some of them, they were deceived themselves.

31:35So it's really – even that is not black and white.

31:38You know, they could be good people

31:40who are just not behaving like a normal person would

31:44because they've been manipulated.

31:46Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started

31:50or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned

31:53through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements

31:57into the New Apostolic Reformation?

32:00You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

32:04william-branham.org.

32:07On the books page of the website,

32:09you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley,

32:13Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

32:16with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

32:21You can also find resources and documentation

32:24on various people and topics related to those movements.

32:28If you want to contribute to the cause,

32:30you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.

32:34And as always, be sure to like and subscribe

32:37to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

32:41On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,

32:43we want to thank you for your support.

32:46So we're like 30 minutes in.

32:48We're here to talk about Bethel and the Ponzi scheme.

32:51I was digging through information,

32:54and you gave me a heads up that I was probably going to find it.

32:57And I found multiple Ponzi schemes that hit Bethel.

33:02And suddenly, that's what made me really fascinated to dig deeper

33:07because in the Branham churches, there was a similar situation.

33:12And I'm not going to name the names,

33:14but several people had set up a Ponzi scheme,

33:18and they were swindling the parishioners.

33:20And then you go back, John G. Lake was set up.

33:22It wasn't a Ponzi scheme, but Lake was setting up

33:26what they call a blue sky fraud or something against his parishioners.

33:31I mean, you can go through the trail of history.

33:33You can find Charles Fox Parham.

33:35He's in a magic gold from God scam.

33:40He's one of the investors in this magic elixir

33:43that turns ordinary rocks into gold.

33:45So you've got all these scams.

33:47And the thought hit me after I researched what you said.

33:52People who are in the type of movement

33:56that is a prosperity gospel type movement,

34:00which the faith healing was and the modern prosperity gospel is,

34:05they seem to be more susceptible to this

34:07because they take that blind faith that we've talked about for 30 minutes.

34:11And lo and behold, one of the first ones I found,

34:15they had an entire section talking about

34:18the people who are in the prosperity gospel

34:20are more susceptible to be duped like this.

34:23Yes. Oh, my gosh. Thank you.

34:26I have so much to say about this.

34:28And so back in 2007,

34:31I was a firsthand witness to the Ponzi scheme.

34:34And I know you said I say it differently than you, Ponzi.

34:39Your redneck is different than my redneck.

34:42That's my accent on the wrong syllable.

34:46But so here I am, first year student at Bethel School Supernatural Ministry,

34:50moved to Reading.

34:51I actually moved back to the United States

34:54because I was a missionary in Africa prior to that.

34:58And then went to Bethel in 2007.

35:01And incidentally, everybody was talking about this guy named David Sousa

35:07that sort of came out of nowhere.

35:09He came to Reading from another part of California.

35:12And everybody's like, David Sousa, David Sousa, you got to meet David Sousa.

35:16And so I eventually met him not long after moving to Reading

35:21through a friend and who introduced me to him.

35:25And so, you know, a lot of us would just go over to his house on a regular basis.

35:29It's kind of weird thinking back on it now.

35:31But he lived in this really big mobile home.

35:34It was like a double wide mobile home with, I don't know, four or five bedrooms.

35:38I'm not sure exactly how many in a big like living room.

35:42And you come in and there's this big I'll never forget.

35:44It's so crazy.

35:45There's this big recliner in the middle of the living room.

35:48This big, lazy boy, cushiony recliner.

35:51And everybody there's this unspoken rule that nobody sits in this chair.

35:55OK, nobody sits in David's chair because he would flip out if he did.

36:01And anyway, one thing led to another.

36:04But what you the stories you started to hear from other Bethel students,

36:08there would be certain Bethel students that would be highlighted and they would

36:12just, you know, unsuspectingly receive a check from David Sousa, you know,

36:17randomly like, hey, God highlighted me to you and I'm giving you this money to

36:23help go towards your missions trip or your tuition or whatever.

36:27And all of us Bethel students were fricking poor.

36:29Like we were doing good to eat one meal a day.

36:32So when that happened, like we were in this environment that was primed.

36:38Yes, the prosperity, even though it was never called the prosperity gospel there,

36:42you know, every service where we're doing the offering declaration where we say

36:48raises and bonuses, estates and inheritances, rebates and returns, bonuses,

36:54gifts, surprises, checks in the mail, debts paid off, blessings and increase.

36:58It's been 15 years since I've been to a Bethel church service, I think, or maybe 10 years.

37:04I can't remember, but I still have that in my head.

37:07It's like a it's a mantra.

37:11And in the Bethel environment, you are primed to believe that that it's your destiny to be wealthy.

37:20Like, and the whole thing is this.

37:23If you can be if you can become a steward of what God's given you now,

37:29then you can become wealthy so that you become a blessing to other people.

37:33That's that's really so like prospering you in every realm, financially, spiritually,

37:39all of the different realms.

37:41So here you are as a Bethel student.

37:44And in comes this guy, David Sousa.

37:47And it turns out that this friend of mine introduced me to him, had an MBA.

37:53And so, you know, looking back, this particular friend helped him sort of do his business stuff.

38:00And he didn't know.

38:01My friend didn't know that David was a fraud.

38:05He had no idea because David was pitching to people 158 percent return on your investments.

38:12He said there was this there was this property project they were doing down in Calexico in Southern California,

38:18right on the Mexico border.

38:20There was this water bottling plant in Oklahoma you can invest in.

38:26So there are all these different promises that David was making.

38:30And really, when it comes down to it, what David did is he saw an opportunity for people who who really had this,

38:38this faith, if you want to call it faith to to really latch on to a wealth that they could access.

38:45And he saw himself as, man, I'm going to come in and I'm going to take advantage of that.

38:50And that's what he did.

38:51And he built, I think, over a million dollars out of people.

38:55I mean, people liquidated their retirement accounts.

38:57They sold their houses.

38:59They took out second mortgages on their houses, invested their money with him.

39:03And he didn't invest one dollar.

39:05It was it was one big washing machine.

39:08And, you know, money came in and then he would write checks to.

39:13It's the classic Bernie Madoff, like the people that came in the ponds asking the soonest for the people that got the checks as soon as.

39:20And eventually some checks started bouncing and, you know, people started asking questions and like, OK, there's something not right here.

39:28Yeah. You know, you can't really say that this is a fault of Bethel Church.

39:33I'll make that clear right now.

39:35Yeah. But but the framework of doctrine makes people more susceptible, just like the news said.

39:41And to prove that point, it wasn't just one time that a Ponzi scheme has hit Bethel.

39:47I was as I was digging, I found there was another one in 2020 that made major news because it ended up in some weird chase where the guy had.

39:56He ran into into the lake and he had some kind of underwater scooter that he was trying to ride them with.

40:02Yes. And so you have two Ponzi schemes hit the same church.

40:06And I mean, how many more will there be when you have a group of people that are trained to not critically think, trained to have blind faith instead of faith,

40:17trained never to look at evidence or you're questioning your blind faith.

40:21You're going to have predators hit it left and right because they have literally set up guinea pigs for the predators to prey upon.

40:28Yeah, it's exactly right. And this is what I wanted to say.

40:31And I wrote this down before we started the meeting.

40:35It's really three ingredients here. It's faith.

40:38But whatever you want to call this faith plus desperation plus poverty equals exploitation.

40:46And so you had all these Bethel students that were man, we were so excited.

40:52We were so excited to see miracles. And we did. We saw some.

40:55We saw a lot of them, honestly, full disclosure.

40:59We saw a lot of amazing stuff happen.

41:02But the faith plus the desperation, like we were desperate for God in a good way, but also in a not good way, like healthy or I should say unhealthy way,

41:11like where it crossed the line into desperation, which which then you it's like you've talked about.

41:17You sort of you check a critical thing at the door.

41:21You sort of don't listen to the warning signs and the flags and stuff.

41:27And then on top of that, poverty. So it was really hard to get a job in reading.

41:32People were struggling financially. And so you have this guy come in and promise the moon and heck, you're going to believe it.

41:39And so, yeah, it's was it Bethel's fault? No, I don't want to slam Bethel for it.

41:45But it is one of the byproducts of an environment like this where wealth is sort of this promise that, you know, if you follow God, you're going to be a wealthy person.

41:55And that is not the gospel. I'm sorry. It is not the gospel.

41:59The fact of the matter is, Paul said that he learned to be content when he had a lot and when he didn't have anything.

42:07So I don't think that's what we're promised. And so, yeah, that's that was just like one of the fruits and byproducts.

42:16And I will say this, though, to Bethel's credit, when this happened, when it when words started getting out because he made his way,

42:24David made his way up the echelons of Bethel leadership.

42:27And there were even leaders at Bethel that, quote unquote, invested their money with him.

42:33I don't know exactly which ones, but I know that some did.

42:36And so it eventually got out and the leadership called a big meeting with all of the students at Bethel at the BSSM and then also the church.

42:46And everybody got into this big meeting and they said they warned everybody about David Sousa.

42:52They said, you know, don't invest money with him. He's he's fraudulent. He is not a safe person.

42:59So at least they did that. But how much headache and heartache and loss could have been prevented if that had been done, you know, before before all the damage had been done?

43:13And for me, nothing is black and white.

43:16It's all complex. And I'm hearing what you just said.

43:20And the good person in me would love to believe that's transparency and that's what a church should do.

43:26And it is. It's transparency. That's what a church should do.

43:29The critical thinker in me is looking at that thinking, OK, they know the feds are fixing to crack down on this thing.

43:35It happened in a church. We're about to be investigated.

43:39We have to draw a clear line in the sand that says we are not part of the Ponzi scheme.

43:45So there you go. It's you're right.

43:47Whenever you look at it, you think, why on earth is there transparency in one particular issue and never in the other stuff?

43:55You're absolutely right, though. That's a great point.

43:57It's just like with the clergy sexual abuse that's come out.

44:00Like it's it's when the heat gets put on that, you know, you get some kind of quasi, you know, statement from the stage or publicly.

44:09But no, he distanced himself from the minister or whatever.

44:12And they're just trying to see why. That's that's absolutely the case.

44:18It's just. Anyway, there's just a lot I could say about that, but yeah.

44:24Then the feds did come the SEC in this case, they came in and and he and not only was he pursued and the SEC went after him,

44:35which is the Security and Exchange Commission's federal agency, and then this the Shasta County authorities went after him.

44:43He went he was sentenced to prison for 18 years, I think it was.

44:48So as far as I know, he went to prison. Wow.

44:51So at least he went to prison for it. I mean, you know, it's more than can be said for some of the other scandals.

44:58Yeah, it's just it's hard to believe, man.

45:00I look at all of this and again, this happened in the Branham churches as well.

45:06The difference is, you know, I don't know that there was that level of transparency,

45:11but they may have been just so naive that they didn't realize there would be a federal crackdown.

45:16So who knows? Even that is not a black or white thing.

45:19But I look at all of this and I just have to believe that if a church were popular, you know,

45:26say there is a lot of a large population of poor people, poor people are often preyed upon by scam artists.

45:33In fact, I've seen it outside of the churches.

45:36I've seen people who were really poor and they came and tried to sell me multi-marketing schemes.

45:43They fall for this stuff, but tried to sell me some ankle bracelet that had magnets on it

45:49and said the magnets would cleanse my blood and I would feel better and all of this stuff.

45:54You know, it's all nonsense, right?

45:56Well, I critically thought about it the moment they said it.

46:01But when you're poor and you're struggling and you're thinking,

46:04oh, wow, I'm going to make all kinds of money on this new thing that's come out,

46:09you shut off critical thinking because you're thinking more about the carrot on the stick that you're never going to get.

46:15If a church were to truly love the poor, it's not just the gospel that a church can help with.

46:24The church is the community.

46:26They could educate people on the scam artists and they could prevent some of this stuff from happening.

46:31Now, I'm not saying that it's Bethel's fault.

46:33Again, this is outside of that.

46:36But what they're teaching is blind faith, which isn't biblical at all.

46:42So if they're going to teach something that isn't biblical,

46:45why not teach how to apply critical thinking and avoid scam artists?

46:50Both sides are on biblical doctrines, except for the fact that the Bible does say to have critical thinking.

46:58So I guess there's that.

47:00Yeah, and I think, you know, the thing that comes to mind here,

47:03especially, and I've thought about this the past couple of weeks, actually,

47:06and this is a phrase that Bill Johnson said a lot, and I think he still says it.

47:13And it's a very widely quoted maxim that Bill is known for saying,

47:19and it's this.

47:20If you want the peace that passes all understanding, you have to give up the right to understand.

47:26OK, and and but if you actually go and you read that verse in the Bible, well, not that.

47:33That's not a verse.

47:34Sorry, that that part that I just quoted is not a verse,

47:36but he's referencing the verse in the Bible that talks about the peace that surpasses all understanding.

47:43The thing is, though, that if you look at that statement, it's not true.

47:48It's not true.

47:49That's not what the Bible promises.

47:53The Bible promises peace that surpasses all understanding.

47:57It doesn't mean that we give up the right to understand like.

48:02So one of the things that I've learned, I think it was from Stephen Hassan.

48:07I believe this is for him, is that when somebody says something very slow and profound,

48:16the human brain is more likely to believe it.

48:20So just by me doing that right there, by slowing down my speech, it almost sounds like, oh, it's more true.

48:26It's more impactful.

48:28It's got to be true because I say it with a microphone and I say it slowly and I say it with a lot of finesse.

48:35And so I think that's an example of what you're talking about, where critical thinking is.

48:42It's like check my brain at the door and just fill me with you.

48:47You just tell me what to think.

48:49And it just so happens that what you tell me to think is actually not true.

48:55And I go back to the predators preying upon the poor people, selling magnet bracelets.

49:01And this wasn't the only scam that I've seen hit a person who is financially struggling.

49:08I've seen multiple scam artists.

49:10Well, think of this.

49:11You have the churches that are teaching this prosperity gospel nonsense.

49:16And in effect, they're doing the same exact thing.

49:19Give me your money because God's going to bless you with the money.

49:22They're preying on the poor people because it's the poor people that are going to give them the money.

49:26The rich people stay rich because they don't give them the money.

49:31Well, I will say, though, there actually are rich people that fall prey to it, too.

49:36But I'm with you.

49:38It's probably proportionally much larger percentage of people that are poor and financially struggling, right, that end up.

49:48It's like the old grandmothers that watch the televangelists that call 1-800-BLESS-ME-NOW and sow $50 seed into Kenneth Copeland.

49:58And, I mean, Kenneth Copeland's over there in his, you know, one of the nicest jets in the world.

50:04I think he's got $700 million net worth.

50:07And it's like, in what universe is that even okay?

50:12And that's like the ultimate sort of word of faith, like prosperity gospel, you know, movement.

50:20That's even probably even far, way further down that road than even the NAR, but still, like, very much steeped in it.

50:31Yeah.

50:32And, you know, I've got no problem with a rich person.

50:36In fact, I've got some friends who are very wealthy.

50:39No problem at all with it.

50:41That's, you know, there's a way to do business in the right way and to get ahead in life.

50:46But when you're doing it on the backs of poor people and you're getting rich off of poor people, that's problematic for me.

50:53Yeah.

50:54Oh, absolutely.

50:55It's not that being wealthy, I mean, there are plenty of wealthy people in the Bible, too.

50:59You know, kings and people like that.

51:01But it's not that having it doesn't say having money is the root of all kinds of evil.

51:08It says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

51:11Yeah.

51:12So and I'm with you.

51:14Like, there's nothing wrong with doing well.

51:18But if you're a preacher and you're supposed to be preaching the gospel and you're grifting off of people and you're making people poorer.

51:27And you're causing them to suffer because of your ridiculous nonsense that you're telling them to sow a seed into your ministry and you're going and buying a jet.

51:36Or you're building a $200 million building in Reading.

51:39Give me a break.

51:41Yeah.

51:42That's ridiculous.

51:43It's funny because you triggered me.

51:46It's funny.

51:47You're talking and I give you things that make you, you know, think outside of the box.

51:52Well, you say things that bring back all this programming that's in my head.

51:56And you're talking about rich people.

51:58I apologize.

51:59I'm sorry.

52:00No, this was a good one.

52:02You're talking about rich people in the Bible.

52:04Actually, I can't say this was a good one, but this is a good example, I should say.

52:09We heard over and over.

52:12They love to use the phrase from Matthew, what is it?

52:1519, I think it is, where it talks about it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven.

52:23And then pass the offering plates.

52:26In other words, we do not want you to have money, so give it to us.

52:31We want to be the rich ones.

52:33So make me the camel that can't go through the eye of the needle.

52:37It's like they're preaching that to the people, but they're the ones that are the camel.

52:42You can't freaking fit through the eye of the needle.

52:44You know what I mean?

52:45Exactly.

52:46That's the irony of it all.

52:47That's the irony.

52:48My grandfather, not the one that was the pastor of the Branham Tabernacle, but my other one,

52:52he was a humble, very simple man, and he is a humble, very simple man.

52:58The pastor started harping on giving him money and tithes.

53:03Every service was like using this verse and others and saying, you're not going to need the money for this world.

53:10The kingdom of heaven is almost at hand.

53:14They would use another phrase, the Bible says, for the rich to give the money to the poor.

53:21My grandfather confronted him finally and said, look, man, if I give you all of my money, then I become the poor.

53:28Are you going to give it back to me?

53:32You can imagine the way the pastor reacted.

53:35They love getting it, but they don't love giving it back.

53:38No, they don't.

53:39No, they don't.

53:40I'll tell you, I get triggered when I see pastors posting on Instagram.

53:47They got their bathrooms renovated.

53:49They got the most beautiful granite courts, whatever.

53:54Get your granite bathroom, but don't put it on Instagram.

53:58You know what I mean?

53:59People are writing checks to your church, and these people actually believe that when they donate to your church,

54:06that they're doing something in faith.

54:08You're going to rip them off and buy a $2 million house or however many millions of dollars over here.

54:15That infuriates me.

54:17Yeah.

54:19You know, it's funny.

54:20Every time I have a conversation with you, it's like I don't know what we're going to end up.

54:24First, we start talking about faith healing, and then we go to Ponzi schemes, and now we're talking about bathrooms.

54:30I got something else for you.

54:33You got to hear this.

54:35I didn't tell you this yet.

54:36You can edit this out if you want.

54:39Along that same time, when David was pulling his grift, I'm going to say it.

54:48I remember Bill talking about the Iraqi currency, the NAR.

54:53I remember Bill talking about that and other people at Bethel, and they said, you need to invest.

55:00It's like a prophetic word.

55:01You need to invest in the Iraqi currency, the NAR.

55:05Supposedly, it was the next best investment.

55:07It was going to go to wherever, go to the moon and back.

55:12Of course, it didn't.

55:15All these people invested in the Iraqi currency.

55:22It's just another example of, even though I don't think they were profiting off of it, it's just like you try to mix prophecy and finance.

55:30It doesn't go well.

55:32It's back to the fortune-telling stuff.

55:35It literally is fortune-telling.

55:37You're trying to tell people to invest in a currency to make a fortune.

55:43Anyway, I just threw that in as kind of like a side context there.

55:48Now, my head's going back to the CIA direction.

55:51Why did Bethel Church need money to be moving into Iraq?

55:55That's the real question for me.

55:58I'll dig, but I'll never find it.

56:02I bet if anybody can find it, you can.

56:04Let me know what you find out.

56:07Well, this was incredibly fun, man.

56:10When I found your name in the paper, I knew we had to get you back on.

56:13Then it sealed the deal today when I was talking to this couple, and they mentioned you specifically.

56:19They said that you gave them a lot of help.

56:21Thank you for doing this.

56:22Awesome.

56:23Man, it's my pleasure.

56:24Happy to chat, John.

56:26Awesome.

56:27Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

56:30You can find us at william-branham.org.

56:33For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponize Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.

56:41Available on Amazon, Kindle, and soon, Audible.

Bethel Church Ponzi Scheme - With Adam Short - Episode 196 Branham Research Podcast

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