Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John Collins and McKinnon examine the impact of Avak Hagopian on the Latter Rain movement and, ultimately, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The conversation highlights the intertwining of personal charisma, alleged divine encounters, and the manipulation of religious followers for personal gain. The narrative suggests that these figures were pivotal in establishing a framework where experience and spectacle in religious gatherings often took precedence over genuine spiritual outcomes. The discussion also touches on the questionable ethics and integrity of these leaders, particularly in the context of financial and moral controversies that surrounded their ministries.
The early faith healers laid the groundwork for the theatrical and often exploitative nature of later religious movements, such as the NAR. The focus on building large followings through claims of divine healing and prophetic abilities, coupled with the strategic use of media and public relations, created a powerful but often deceptive religious phenomenon. The conversation implies that the legacy of these figures continues to influence modern charismatic movements, raising questions about the authenticity and motivations behind such ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:05 Overview of Weaponized Religion and NAR
03:43 Discussion of Avak Hagopian's Influence
06:16 Comparison Between Branham and Hagopian
10:02 Role of Wealthy Sponsors in Promoting Faith Healers
13:43 Decline of Hagopian's Ministry
17:03 Narcissism in Religious Leaders
21:04 Manipulation and Stagecraft in Faith Healing
24:37 Transition of Followers from Hagopian to Branham
30:00 Financial Motivations Behind Religious Movements
35:02 Ethical Issues in Faith Healing Ministries
41:02 Connection Between Hagopian and Christian Identity
47:03 Legacy and Influence of Early Faith Healers
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John Collins and McKinnon examine the impact of Avak Hagopian on the Latter Rain movement and, ultimately, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The conversation highlights the intertwining of personal charisma, alleged divine encounters, and the manipulation of religious followers for personal gain. The narrative suggests that these figures were pivotal in establishing a framework where experience and spectacle in religious gatherings often took precedence over genuine spiritual outcomes. The discussion also touches on the questionable ethics and integrity of these leaders, particularly in the context of financial and moral controversies that surrounded their ministries.
The early faith healers laid the groundwork for the theatrical and often exploitative nature of later religious movements, such as the NAR. The focus on building large followings through claims of divine healing and prophetic abilities, coupled with the strategic use of media and public relations, created a powerful but often deceptive religious phenomenon. The conversation implies that the legacy of these figures continues to influence modern charismatic movements, raising questions about the authenticity and motivations behind such ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:05 Overview of Weaponized Religion and NAR
03:43 Discussion of Avak Hagopian's Influence
06:16 Comparison Between Branham and Hagopian
10:02 Role of Wealthy Sponsors in Promoting Faith Healers
13:43 Decline of Hagopian's Ministry
17:03 Narcissism in Religious Leaders
21:04 Manipulation and Stagecraft in Faith Healing
24:37 Transition of Followers from Hagopian to Branham
30:00 Financial Motivations Behind Religious Movements
35:02 Ethical Issues in Faith Healing Ministries
41:02 Connection Between Hagopian and Christian Identity
47:03 Legacy and Influence of Early Faith Healers
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00You
00:00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins
00:00:38The author and founder of William Branham historical research at William dash Branham org and with me
00:00:44I have my co-host researcher and friend John MacKinnon author of the persuasive preacher the gifted prophet and the noble politician and
00:00:53Together we're discussing weaponized religion how Christian identity fused with early Christian
00:00:59Fundamentalism and politics to form the foundation for the new apostolic Reformation
00:01:05well John today we have a
00:01:08unusual
00:01:09unusually weird episode
00:01:12we're bringing in to focus one of the side stories of all of this and it's
00:01:18Interestingly, it's a side story that continued to progress long after you know latter rain developed and then fizzled out
00:01:25I have actually had multiple
00:01:28Former members of the cult that was established by this man that we're going to talk about today
00:01:35contact me and
00:01:37According to them which I you know, I have no way other than what I see in the news, which seems to affirm it
00:01:44according to them it's very
00:01:47eerily similar to what the allegations are with Mike Bickle and I hop KC at the moment there was
00:01:55Apparently according to the people that have contacted me there were some
00:02:00unusual manipulation and grooming of women according to what they told me and I
00:02:05Look it up and apparently apparently there are some there are some
00:02:11Substantiating claims in the news of what was happening. But anyway this figure that we're talking about today
00:02:18honestly
00:02:19As I was researching and I came across this name
00:02:22I had no idea who it was and find out that Branham his early ministry was connected to it
00:02:28I just got curious and I came to realize that without him
00:02:33It would have the message itself may not have looked in the same way that it did
00:02:39This figure even though he has just a blip in our history
00:02:43He appears to have helped shaped it if you know what I mean
00:02:47Yeah, John
00:02:49And we haven't spoken prior to this episode here, but it's interesting you mentioned about the allegations
00:02:55Against a vac and I came across some very can you know confirming evidence that I'll share later
00:03:01That that talks about the grooming of women and so forth in this in this movement
00:03:05And and early on when I used to hear about a vac and I knew he was from Iran and was a healer from Iran
00:03:12I always thought he had to go back to Iran because I knew that was the thing
00:03:15But actually a vac stayed in the United States
00:03:17He had to leave the country for a short period of time before he got deported
00:03:21But he actually ended up creating a religious movement of people that followed him all for his life
00:03:26But it's interesting to see about the women that he groomed and and how the women
00:03:33He eventually had for his own harem
00:03:36Stayed with him, but we'll go through that later. But today we're we're exploring some parallels
00:03:41There's some real intriguing parallels between Branham's ministry and a vac Hagopian that I'll mention throughout the the podcast
00:03:48but both of them came through the 20th century and
00:03:52They had messages from God. They claim to speak for God and even claim prophetic
00:03:58utterances
00:03:59Hagopian
00:04:01Emphasized on divine healing it actually mirrors Branham's focus and and and their one-time meeting
00:04:07It was for different reasons and and we'll talk about Clem Davies at the time Clem Davies was
00:04:13Supporting a vac and he had got involved and and we'll see it was all for the money for Clem
00:04:18And they saw the potential to make lots of money using a vacs ministry
00:04:24And that's much the same way we see with
00:04:26Gordon Lindsay voice of healing got organized around Branham because there was a lot of money to be made and it's astronomical
00:04:32What you see that when they took up the offerings we'll go through that later how much money they got
00:04:38But these faith healers they would present themselves as just unique people claiming divine
00:04:44You know
00:04:46Visitations from God from angels from even from God or Jesus himself
00:04:51And so there was a lot of relationship between him and Branham on that and the followers just flocked to it
00:04:57You know a vac had really gathered quite a following and and had he have had any effect on
00:05:05Archelion's son that called him over here from Iran and and had he had actually healed his son or had some effect upon him
00:05:12I'm sure he would have had a huge
00:05:14Following even larger than Branham's at the time if he would had any success at all
00:05:18But it was only because he didn't have the success that he came over here to do that his popularity in the West Coast
00:05:25You know diminished and he actually ended up moving over to the East Coast
00:05:28Where people didn't know him as well and he could act like he was a great healer
00:05:33So they both had these personal revelations and most of the material I got
00:05:37I actually found a book and I don't know if you found it John, but it was a German that wrote a book about
00:05:43Avoc his name was Roy
00:05:46Wehrman Chuck and you've got it. Yeah. Yeah, and I found the English
00:05:50Version of that I don't know if his is in German there
00:05:53But so I could just say that in these ministries
00:05:57I can say with a fact that not one person was ever healed by these men
00:06:02You know, if anybody ever was healed it was of course the power of God himself
00:06:06His sovereignty is grace
00:06:07but these men just wanted wanted power and control over people or they desired just to get
00:06:13The lifestyle they wanted to live out and that's how they I just wanted that contentment in life
00:06:18The things they wanted to do so each had their own goals
00:06:21But in the end a vaccine content with his own smaller following of people
00:06:26He didn't he didn't seem to desire up, you know a nationwide following but Branham on the other hand
00:06:31he really wanted the the world to follow him I think and believe his message was from God and
00:06:37most of Branham in the end he and ended up being very satisfied with just a small core network of people and
00:06:44And at the expense of the rest of the world and Christianity
00:06:46He said, you know fooey on you. I'm just gonna take my core following it really believes
00:06:52I'm I'm the man of the hour, but but when you look at the New Testament example with Paul
00:06:57You know Paul never never focused on divine healing as a major and this movement that we see came out of the 1940s even
00:07:06Earlier with John Dowie that the main focus was on healing and most of these healing ministries were more were sham than they were real
00:07:15There might have been some people healed as I mentioned
00:07:17but Paul never made a big deal out of healing or
00:07:20He never gave it more emphasis than that say the gift of tongues or word of knowledge or anything else
00:07:26it was all lumped into the gifts of the Spirit and
00:07:29the major focus was supposed to be Christ and salvation and the gospel and
00:07:33We'll see that in the scripture that Paul only focused on that
00:07:37I would say probably ninety nine point nine eight percent of the people ever prayed for
00:07:42Really got none. Most of them did not get healed
00:07:44You had that one here or there that got healed and you hear them claim
00:07:49We've got really documented evidence from doctors that that we were healed that the people thousands were healed
00:07:55But you never see them produced to documents. They just always say that so a lot of us just
00:07:59Speaking things that really weren't true, you know of how the success of the meetings were but Paul
00:08:06When people tried to make him a great power of God after he healed a person, you know
00:08:10somebody stood up it says in Acts 14 10 he a man that was crippled got up and walked and then when the people saw
00:08:16that they
00:08:18Lifted up their voices and said the gods are come down in the likeness of men
00:08:22And that's exactly what we see in a VAC and and William Branham's ministry
00:08:26They wanted to say God was in them in the likeness of men now. They made a big deal of it
00:08:30But let's look look how Paul did it
00:08:32They tried to make Paul and Barnabas these these gods and then as soon as they heard about it
00:08:38It says which when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of that they tore their clothes
00:08:42They ran out in the streets among the people and just cried out saying why are you doing these things?
00:08:47Well, why are you trying to make us big?
00:08:49We're men of light passions like you and we're asking you to turn to the Living God
00:08:53You know not to a gift of healing that I've got or that God gave me. It's turned to the Living God
00:08:59And they even state that you know in times past, you know, you walked in your own ways
00:09:03But now he's trying to get you to turn to the gospel
00:09:06So the whole thing was to turn to the gospel of Christ
00:09:10Repentance, you know and and serving Christ and not your own self anymore
00:09:14so we see a huge difference in the
00:09:16Healing revival the 40s and really what Paul if you were preaching the gospel of Paul
00:09:21You wouldn't be majoring on healing like these men did. Yeah, I agree
00:09:25You mentioned the book by Roy Wareham check and I I have a copy of it that it was sent to me by him
00:09:33Whenever I began researching the early years of latter rain
00:09:37He contacted me because he was researching Branham at the same time
00:09:41He's I should have brought it in here to show but I also have a book from him on William Branham
00:09:47He was writing the book on Branham and we both came to this side story about the same time
00:09:53and so we're going back and forth with the research and I'm sharing things that I found with him and he with me and
00:09:59He ended up writing this book based off of that I've often considered of going going back and writing a book
00:10:08Showing the importance of Ava Cagopian to latter rain and ultimately to the NAR because this
00:10:16Branham Branham said that angels were messengers and then when he describes his fictional alleged angel
00:10:23He is describing this character. If you go look at the newspaper, right?
00:10:27Yes, he is fully describing this guy. And so
00:10:31Roy and I both we we came to
00:10:34similar conclusions that Branham Branham knew this guy a lot more intimately and we had not yet seen the photograph of Branham with him and
00:10:43Later after it may have been even after this book
00:10:48We came across that Roy is also the guy who found out that William Branham was using a false middle name for the revivals
00:10:56he's the one that sent me the
00:10:58The GI record of Marvin. I never even thought to look at it
00:11:02You know, I should have looked for it, but that's the first thing he did and he was it was like, oh my gosh
00:11:07Have you seen this?
00:11:08But anyway, this this is an excellent book. I recommended it's called Ava Cagopian
00:11:14from fame to failure and
00:11:17like I said
00:11:18I know that many people were they were they will never have heard this name and they will never have connected it with latter rain
00:11:24and all of the various movements that came after but Branham said an angel is a messenger and
00:11:32This guy was an alleged faith healer
00:11:36You could almost say that Branham was building him up to be an angel for the church age
00:11:40and we don't have the recordings that have been erased from our history before
00:11:461947 and many of them in
00:11:481947 and 48 are missing. They're
00:11:51So-called quote-unquote missing I
00:11:54Suspect that he's probably in a lot of those recordings that we don't have access to have
00:11:58So Branham may have even been touting him as an angel messenger to his prophet and setting, you know
00:12:05Prior to the latter rain setting up Apostles prophets, etc. We don't know what William Branham did
00:12:11But we can see from the newspapers and from Branham's own statements that very very wealthy people
00:12:18Were setting up this
00:12:20faith healing ministry with Branham and
00:12:24Avoc and he says the same men who sent Avoc to this area sent me
00:12:30so he's saying literally that
00:12:32If you know the history the Kardashian family is sponsoring it. You've got the Kardashians the shakarians
00:12:39Dima shakarian founded the full gospel businessman, which is deeply connected to many different things. We'll get into that later
00:12:47But
00:12:48Anyway, all of this started in 1947 prior to William Branham's explosion into fame and this guy was actually
00:12:56Avoc Agopian was actually more famous for a brief period of time. So it gets it gets really interesting as we get into this
00:13:04Yeah, it was interesting that those ministries started about the same time
00:13:08Branham got started just right after Avoc had got to the country is his national fame started
00:13:13But that that's really what pushed Branham into fame was Avoc's diminishing because Avoc failed to heal Vaughn
00:13:22Achillean
00:13:23After he was brought over here
00:13:24His dad had great faith in Avoc because he had heard about his stories and I ran how he had these gifts
00:13:29So he paid lots of money to get him over there and believe it or not
00:13:33I read where I think it was in Roy's book there
00:13:35He paid two hundred and fifty thousand dollars already to try to get his son
00:13:39Well, if you take that and translate that into today's money, you're probably talking about millions of dollars and and no no effect on his
00:13:47Son there. So when Avoc failed to really produce healing he actually said within two weeks. I'll have your son healed
00:13:54and he never could produce the healing and he claimed he gave certain excuses because you know
00:14:00it was maybe too many people around him or he couldn't get off and pray and
00:14:03so his fame diminished right at the time Branham's took off and
00:14:08At the time Branham was demonstrating
00:14:10you know so-called great powers of God and people just flocked to it because people were flocking to
00:14:16The homes out there in California in Palm Springs
00:14:19Where Avoc was they were already flocking out there and sending thousands of letters a day to seeking the healing
00:14:25So there was many ailments, I guess in the United States about that time dealt with medical science not having been advanced like it is today
00:14:33But there's always plenty of sick people and there's always people that if there's a hope of getting well
00:14:38They certainly want to go to it. So we saw that I
00:14:41Thought about this podcast
00:14:44What could you call it and I guess you know you the subtitle this thing might could be narcissism
00:14:50Because there is a certain amount of narcissism in these leaders and is defined as a self-centered personality style
00:14:58Characterized as having an excessive preoccupation with oneself and one's own needs at the expense of others often and
00:15:06There's an essay in 1913 called the God complex Ernest Jones
00:15:10Wrote down what he considered extreme narcissism as a character trait. So narcissism is a personality disorder. Actually, it's
00:15:19It's actually a disorder like any other psychological disorder people have and I believe there's a certain amount of that
00:15:25A certain amount of it in all of us, but there's a certain great amount in these in these men
00:15:30He described people this guy Ernest Jones as with the God complex as being aloof
00:15:36self-important
00:15:37Overconfident auto erotic inaccessible. So there you go self admiring
00:15:43Exhibitionists with fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience
00:15:47He observed that these people had a high you need for uniqueness. I
00:15:51Think that pretty much describes, you know, these ministers that we're talking about
00:15:56They wanted to be
00:15:58Unique they they had a high sense of self-importance like I'm the prophet of God
00:16:02They might not overtly state it many times but many times they did but they wanted you to know that hey
00:16:08I am in the scripture. These scriptures are written about me
00:16:12And we see Malachi 4 being one of the main ones where it was openly proclaimed
00:16:18You know, I'm Malachi 4 and people began to believe that so as long as that's what they were after and they had this God complex
00:16:24I think we could call this narcissism, you know in a way
00:16:28It was also narcissism is a grandiose sense of self-importance a constant need for admiration
00:16:34That's another thing that an excessive desire for attention
00:16:37So these men they grew up with this personality trait and because of their excessive desire for that attention that they really craved
00:16:45They they sought to get it and they had these abilities and we'll see these abilities
00:16:50Really is is what separates them from the rest as he's being charismatic and being able to you know
00:16:57Sway people there's there's a lot there, but they these people engage in manipulative and controlling behavior sometimes in their relationships. So
00:17:07It's a every narcissist even Roy writes us in his book says to be surrounded and adored by the masses is a
00:17:14secret wish of many of the natural
00:17:17aspiration of every narcissist
00:17:18But only those who have a certain charisma talent appearance or in the worst case power receive the attention on a permanent basis
00:17:26so
00:17:27hit
00:17:28Avoc had a godlike homage
00:17:30He he tend to look like Christ as we said that he was
00:17:34Even Roy writes in his book that he's the pre figure of the the angel that appeared to Branham
00:17:39So right about the time Branham was talking about this angel that appeared whereas we know before before that time
00:17:45He only talked about a vision in 1945 when he got started with this healing ministry
00:17:49He didn't talk about some angel in human form and right about the time he met Avoc
00:17:54you know, we see him describing a man that perfectly looks like Avoc with the white robe the olive complexion the long hair to his
00:18:01Shoulders and that's what Roy writes in his book. He's probably very much
00:18:06Maybe describing Avoc and and he writes it's uh, the ancient Greeks described
00:18:14Narcissism as an arrogance which brings the person to the verge of social failure
00:18:19And we see that happening when you get so narcissistic that you are hurting men and hurting others
00:18:25In your ministry and we find that people tend to shy away from that
00:18:30But but there's always a balance there. They try to remain powerful. So
00:18:34I'm afraid of Lindsay writes in her book here that
00:18:38Branham loved flatteries. She wrote some of her diary secrets that
00:18:44And and early days Brandon was very much
00:18:47Messed up in his doctrine, you know haven't had some strange doctrines Gordon actually helped straighten him out, you know in the early days
00:18:53That's that's the recordings. We don't really have
00:18:56Available all those recordings prior to Gordon Lindsay working with Branham trying to straighten him out
00:19:01It would be very nice to have all those because then you see what what the ministry was really like
00:19:06In the early days before it sounded more Christian because in the early days, you know
00:19:10Freda Lindsay said it was bordering on the occult and when we saw some of those
00:19:14recordings we went through last time about the bracelet and the things that he would do about saying I can just look at a person and
00:19:20Uncross their eyes all that kind of things is is really doesn't sound like that kind of healing that God gave out to men
00:19:28and and Branham was such a
00:19:31I won't say narcissist but such a feeling of importance of about himself
00:19:36They would schedule meetings and he she said he wouldn't even show up
00:19:39He said well, I just didn't know I had to drive that far
00:19:42so his feeling of importance was
00:19:45Such that he wouldn't even bother to show up for the meeting that they spent thousands of dollars to set up for him
00:19:50sometimes and
00:19:51and he even said I'm going off the field after his physical breakdown and get a job as my game order and job back in
00:19:58Indiana and
00:19:59And about the magazine Gordon asking about what's gonna happen to the voice of healing and he just said well, that's yours
00:20:04Say that was your idea. And and that's what she writes in her diary
00:20:08So it just goes to show that these men have a greater sense of their self
00:20:13And they seek to gain the following but they always have that sense of importance about themselves and they crave it
00:20:19And that's what drives them more. So sometimes the money or fame or popularity
00:20:24They're driven by that need to fulfill that need in their life, right? I would agree
00:20:29Narcissism if you study cults and study cult leaders, they all display various
00:20:36levels of
00:20:37Narcissistic personality disorder and you can you can go on the internet and you can type in what are the signs of narcissism?
00:20:43and you'll see, you know a list of characteristics of personalities that
00:20:49Suddenly, you know if you're in a destructive group suddenly you're gonna read this and think oh, wait a minute
00:20:54That's describing this guy that this guy that we're following and it's very common if you look across all of them, but
00:21:01You know getting to Avoc Hagopian's story coming to America
00:21:06When you first see it, it's it's really weird because they're bringing him in from I think I think has said his last major
00:21:14Revival was Egypt if I remember correctly, I'd have to go back and refresh my memory
00:21:18But immediately prior to him coming to the United States regardless of what country is in he had worldwide fame
00:21:26so this was a man who was
00:21:28Globally famous not just in a space in a specific region
00:21:33And these very very wealthy
00:21:37owners of vineyards out in Palm Springs brought him over to the country and when he landed it was
00:21:43You know
00:21:44I'm trying to picture somebody as famous as that back then and I'm not struggling to pull up a name because
00:21:50His plane landed and suddenly this throng of people come to greet him and everywhere. He goes throughout the United States. It's very
00:21:59it reminds you of how a
00:22:01you know a
00:22:03Stage act would tour through the United States back then
00:22:06He did not just land and then go directly to where he was called to be
00:22:10He would go to different cities and build up this big
00:22:13Hype over him. So there was an element of showmanship that came with this
00:22:18So if you think of the NAR you think of the way that they do these showmanship ministries these lights cameras glitter action
00:22:27Cadillacs all of this. Well, this guy had it and he had it prior to getting to Palm Springs
00:22:33He had built up such a recognition in the United States
00:22:37That by the time he landed in Palm Springs
00:22:40There were people flocking by I think one of the counts I read was over 10,000 people and
00:22:47Palm Springs was inundated with people who you know
00:22:51There was there was not enough housing and in hotels to keep them all so these wealthy
00:22:57homes and you know these these very rich people were having to
00:23:02Having to bring some of these people in their homes because they would law they're out there in the elements
00:23:07They didn't even have food. They did not have enough food to supply them
00:23:10so there were I read one article where it described the
00:23:14mess that was created by all of this and they were having to bring in mobile hot dog stands and give
00:23:21people hot dogs
00:23:23Because there were there just wasn't enough food. There wasn't enough restaurants to hold them all they it was not
00:23:29It was not designed to handle a 10,000 people throng
00:23:34To come into the area just simply put but he brought with him all all of this glamour and
00:23:41stage persona that
00:23:44it set the stage for what was to come and
00:23:48if you compare
00:23:50What happened with a VAC in that period of time whenever he's just getting established in Los Angeles to?
00:23:57The way that the the faith healers the alleged faith healers and the latter rain movement presented themselves
00:24:04They would land in a city build up this hype and then go to the next city and take the hype with him
00:24:09this guy was literally a prototype for the carnival that was about to ensue and
00:24:16The fact that they brought William Branham who would lead the that revival
00:24:20He was he spearheaded the latter rain revivalist the fact that they brought Branham into this mix
00:24:26Shows that there was some sort of strategy involved in setting all of this up because the man who led it was also
00:24:34working with the guy who's creating all of this hype and
00:24:38Again, I wish we had those records
00:24:40I wish we had those audio recordings because if you look back at the dates there there were a lot more
00:24:46Recordings than what we have access to in 1947
00:24:50So if we had it we could probably see how the
00:24:53Latter rain movement came to be shaped by all of this. Yeah, I think you're right
00:24:58I think a vac was just the beginning of the whole show that was fixing to break out upon the nation and
00:25:05Like I say had a vac been a little bit successful and had had something that happened in Vaughn
00:25:11Herculean's life that that might have showed a healing
00:25:14That had taken place. I mean he would have been having worldwide fame as all these other ministers
00:25:19He'd actually been the spearhead of all the revival instead of Branham perhaps
00:25:23But there were men ready to jump on board with this as we'll see
00:25:28They saw lots of money and I think Taito's
00:25:32Kardashian and two others
00:25:34they as soon as he failed to heal Vaughn they took up a vox cause and
00:25:40and went on and Clem Davies was also involved in the mix Clem Davies was known as a
00:25:46You know like one of those fascist
00:25:49White supremacist and he wanted to use a vox more to get his message across
00:25:54But he also saw the money that was to be made there, but eventually with Clem Davies being involved
00:26:00Taking a vox around the country because Clem Davies would do these tours and it would be a patriotic tour
00:26:06To take people around the country on a train and and and promote
00:26:11Anti-communism and to try to fight communism at the time and so that's what Clem Davies was about and also Clem Davies had written books
00:26:18About the Aryan race being the supreme race and so forth
00:26:22So he was involved with the Klan and KKK as well
00:26:25And that's what turned Taito's Kardashian off and they backed away from a vox
00:26:31for a time or
00:26:33Forever, I guess as while Clem Davies took him around but while Clem Davies was taken around interesting
00:26:40Clem Davies got sick and he had to back away from the tour because he actually got sick
00:26:45So I guess the healing powers of a vox didn't make him well enough to continue with the tour
00:26:50But but people flocked to that and they actually paid a lot of money. They had to pay in those days
00:26:56$665 or so to join that train
00:26:58But but getting back to the narcissism
00:27:01Characteristic to another thing that goes along with that is charisma and we see all these men from a a Allen to T.L
00:27:08Osborne, you know Branham all those been you could listen this list there put them all together
00:27:14They definitely have charisma because you take some of the men that have come on the scene today
00:27:19That's probably one of the first things let's look for they're not looking for some
00:27:23Humble man that's that they're teaching the word and really expounding the gospel
00:27:27They're want somebody with great, you know charisma and charisma is just really not even a talent
00:27:32Sometimes it says in Roy's book. There's just an unearned aura
00:27:37Involving a phenomena that's just in the person
00:27:40So the person is born with it and you're either born with it or not
00:27:43And I don't think we should exalt one person over another just because they're have a more charisma charisma has its place
00:27:49but it's not to
00:27:52Dominate other people with your charisma and especially in these types of ministries, but
00:27:58Instead of overt narcissism, I think and say in Branham's ministry. They also describe a covert narcissism
00:28:05That's
00:28:07Coupled with a lack of self-esteem and with high self-claims. I think that pretty well describes
00:28:13That's from Paul wink two faces of narcissism from the Journal of personality and social psychology in 1991
00:28:20Overt narcissism expresses itself and is striving for dominance self-importance
00:28:25So I think that doesn't particularly describe a VAC and and Branham
00:28:29But I think it more law long in the covert side of narcissism
00:28:34You tend to have a lack of self-esteem, but you have high self-claims in that
00:28:40Charisma requires no personal performance or qualifications
00:28:44So, you know, you can be the worst Bible teacher in the world such as we see, you know
00:28:49Branham had a very hard time teaching the Bible correctly, but but your charisma actually
00:28:55Carries you along you don't have to be anything. It gives them
00:28:59Social advantages that gives them they receive attention and admiration and trust even
00:29:05Without even earning it the way the majority of us have to do, you know with people and they're usually surrounded by a group of
00:29:12Loyal admirers they have a have a core group of people there and what what this author called this was seed capital
00:29:19You know, they already have money in the bank there in their personality
00:29:22So all paths are open to them whether it be politics religion business or entertainment industry
00:29:28and I think that's what we see in the NAR is
00:29:32There's men born with charisma and and the ones that go into the religious path
00:29:36They get involved in this NAR and they rise up to be the Apostles and prophets over others
00:29:43But it's that charisma that carries them. They don't have to be accurate in their prophecies
00:29:48Or they don't have to be a good Bible teacher
00:29:49They just have to join the train that that's moving and then they're all paths are open to them
00:29:55Now those that get into politics, of course, you know, they're also or business, you know
00:30:00They just have these advantages that most of us don't have
00:30:03AVAC chose the religious paths as did Branham
00:30:07Religion, he said in this book does not require any special gifts or a high level of education or talents
00:30:14Just a simple spiritual revelation is all you need
00:30:17So anybody out there wanting to start a new religious group get your spiritual revelation
00:30:21If you got some charisma, you can probably form a group or a following
00:30:26Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism transition through the latter rain?
00:30:35Charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation
00:30:39You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website
00:30:44William dash Branham org on the books page of the website
00:30:48You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen Montgomery
00:30:54John MacKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book
00:31:00You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements
00:31:07if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the
00:31:12Contribute button at the top and as always be sure to LIKE and subscribe
00:31:16To the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham historical research
00:31:23We want to thank you for your support. I want to get back to something you said previously though
00:31:27you mentioned Clem Davies, which he is going to have to be another side story that we do because as
00:31:35Weird as it sounds like a voc ag opium
00:31:38That name also helped create what became without
00:31:43without this combination this group of men that were gathered together the
00:31:47shakarians the Kardashians Branham a voc Clem Davies and
00:31:54some other Pentecostal men, which we'll get into also later that had a very a
00:32:01Very stage act centered version of Pentecostal ism and would later lead the Branham campaigns
00:32:08We'll get into that later without this group of men
00:32:10It would not have shaped the NAR it would not have shaped latter rain and and later the NAR
00:32:16So Clem Davies was a well-known
00:32:21widely publicized white supremacist from
00:32:26From up in I think it was Vancouver and he was deeply embedded into Christian identity
00:32:33And so when you think of this group of men you've got
00:32:37Branham who was mentored by the second in command of the Klan who is a who would become a
00:32:43Leader in Christian identity Clem Davies who's in Christian identity Gordon Lindsay became Branham's first
00:32:51Not first but one of his significant stage
00:32:54campaign managers
00:32:55He was involved in Christian identity and then you bring all of the other men that were we've been
00:33:01Discussing Wesley Swift Gerald LK Smith all of this conglomeration of people Christian identity was front and center
00:33:09and so I
00:33:11tried to look
00:33:12Last week and part of this week to find links between a Bach and Christian identity and there isn't a lot of information
00:33:20Existing out there
00:33:21But I suspect that he was part of that movement as well because they were building a Christian identity
00:33:28Stage act. I mean pure plain and simple. You don't invite people like Clem Davies to the game
00:33:34And William Branham, you know to who's and the all these white supremacy guys
00:33:39You don't invite them to be part of this party
00:33:42if you will if if they're not of the same mindset, and so it shows the mindset that was being
00:33:49established and they were setting up for this
00:33:54Stage act to go on a road tour and that's where when I mentioned the photograph that we have a Branham with a
00:34:00Avoc Agopian, that's actually where that photograph came from. It was part of the road show
00:34:06I want to say that one was in it might have been Tampa somewhere in Florida. They were holding revivals out there and
00:34:14Some magazine which I have not yet found where it was published
00:34:18but some magazine has a photograph of William Branham Avoc Agopian and
00:34:24Another gentleman that will will bring into the story later
00:34:28But they set up the stage act and they went across the country with it
00:34:32The interesting part of all of this I've got newspaper articles. In fact as we're talking
00:34:37I'm pulling up on the screen to refresh my memory, but
00:34:40the newspapers from coast to coast followed this story and they show these
00:34:46Photographs of Avoc reaching down and praying for the sick
00:34:50Archelion boy
00:34:52man, I guess he was at this age and they followed the story of the prayer and the healer and
00:34:59You can find it all throughout the United States. If you just go to newspapers.com type in Avoc Agopian
00:35:05you're going to find the
00:35:08Widely publicized prayer for the sick that part gets published
00:35:13Where it gets interesting is by the time that
00:35:17The story is ending which we'll get into later by the time you want to see the outcome. Well what happened to this this guy?
00:35:25the the newspapers just
00:35:28Blatantly stopped covering it. So you don't actually ever see the result. All you see is the intent and
00:35:35That's where it gets even more interesting because the results don't match it match the intentions at all
00:35:43Yeah, you're so right, I mean that was a very good explanation there the whole thing but these men
00:35:50That were gifted and had charisma, you know, a lot of times they had to have handlers
00:35:55so that's what we see is the
00:35:57Handlers who are behind the scenes that want to start the stage show that they can use these men for their own personal gain
00:36:04And I think it was even written in David Harrell's book. All things are possible
00:36:09That of course Branham got in trouble with the IRS, but he claimed only
00:36:13$8,000 on his tax return and the others were claiming
00:36:17$80,000 now I'll bet I'll bet that
00:36:21$8,000 was very small compared to what he really got because the IRS claimed
00:36:25He owed Branham owed a lot more money than just you know, those few taxes that probably he reported
00:36:31But if men were claiming $80,000 you can probably bet that he was making the same money, too
00:36:36Just not reporting it and that's why he got into trouble and actually in Gordon Lindsey's free Lindsey's book
00:36:42she mentions the case of the IRS and mentions that Gordon warned Branham says you need to be reporting this income and
00:36:49And she she said it was a he warned him way before the IRS got involved
00:36:53And so when he had his tax case Branham came crying back to Gordon say what do I do? What do I do?
00:36:59But yeah, that's that's very true
00:37:01So so Avak it was about eight years old and there's a lot of parallels here as we mentioned earlier
00:37:06This is a parallel ministry between him and Branham
00:37:09And I don't know if they just come up with these stories to make their fames to get started
00:37:14But but this is how they get started Avak was about eight years old. He was tending sheep
00:37:19He had his first divine vision and with it came the gift of healing he claimed
00:37:24And it's also claimed that he worked his first miracle at the age of 12 now
00:37:27This came from the stories told about him and I ran so by the time it got to the United States, you know
00:37:33Oh, you're hearing all these stories about a person and then all of a sudden his persona is just blown up
00:37:39Because so many people were saying he works miracles
00:37:41He heals the sick and there's a lot of people that stand behind the stories that were told
00:37:46I claimed he worked a miracle at age 12
00:37:49When a drought struck the country and he actually prayed for rain and it rained
00:37:54So he was kind of like an Elijah figure praying for rain
00:37:57It also says he was illiterate until adulthood and not attended school very much in parallel with what you know, Branham had and another
00:38:06Writing it actually said Avak was very literate, you know, so
00:38:10And not really uneducated, but that was one of the things he was very illiterate, you know
00:38:15I'm such I don't know anything, but I just know the Bible
00:38:18Another vision gate was given to him
00:38:20he was working as a goldsmith at the time and I ran and
00:38:24It was said the entire Bible was revealed to him
00:38:27And there's even another vision that he had were two white doves came and we know
00:38:32Brandon mentions doves and visions a whole lot, too
00:38:35He heard the voice of his deceased mother and the other voice of the dove came from Jesus Christ himself
00:38:41And they told him to preach the word and heal those who have faith
00:38:45Given the ability and he was also given the ability to see inside people
00:38:50So we see this these gifts about seeing inside people
00:38:53Reading their minds and so forth. It really started with Avak because he claimed to have that ability
00:38:59He said from then on he was able not only to recognize the seed of godliness in every human being
00:39:04But also to see people's physical ailments and illnesses
00:39:09So
00:39:10This is exactly the type of ministry that Branham had as well being able to see inside people's lives their physical elements and illnesses
00:39:18As well as the seed of godliness, so, you know
00:39:21Some people even claim Branham knew the seed that was in you whether you were seed of the serpent or whether you were seed of
00:39:27God
00:39:28That's kind of amazing that you know, God would even give somebody the ability to do that
00:39:32I don't I don't believe that he does but
00:39:35Avak told his audiences that vision that after his mother had passed away
00:39:40But but interestingly it actually contradicted other statements made so so you see even in Avak's ministry
00:39:46He couldn't tell the stories right it contradicted other stories which were made while his mother was still alive
00:39:52About that vision. So so we see very contradictory statements even being mentioned in these articles
00:39:58and another
00:40:00Very interesting vision that he had and I don't know if Branham ever read about these visions or knew about
00:40:06That through his contact with Avak
00:40:09But it says he added visions of Old Testament prophets years later and even had a vision about angels
00:40:16Even a hand with a sword
00:40:18So that's very much in line with the sword that came in Sabino Canyon or out there in Arizona
00:40:24at the age of 16
00:40:25he claimed to have been visited by a supernatural being endowed with complete knowledge of the Bible at that time and a gift of healing and
00:40:32And Roy writes in his book. That's very similar to the experience related by brother Branham
00:40:38And more visions followed after that
00:40:40He was presented
00:40:42As the temple of wisdom whose source of knowledge he could access at any time
00:40:46So he he had infinite wisdom and knowledge he could access
00:40:50From then on it said Avak had the ability to read people's minds
00:40:55And there was a story about one two-year-old son of a woman that fell into a water cistern
00:41:00He had supposedly drowned and then Avak looked at him for 20 minutes and he came back to life
00:41:06But eventually
00:41:07Avak joined this doctor this doctor claimed that he was healed of hard of hearing
00:41:11By Avak and this doctor and him joined together, but a very after he joined this doctor and I ran
00:41:18I don't know what year it was, but sometime before he came to the u.s
00:41:23It's very similar to what Branham was into the Tehran based Iranian Society of experimental spirit science
00:41:31They heard about the high number of healings and so it brought to their attention
00:41:35Avak and so eventually they got involved with the spiritual spiritualism over there and I ran
00:41:42Because of that so so we see
00:41:44Spiritualism, you know combined with these so-called visions from God and all kind of intertwined and you would think that Avak would stay away
00:41:52from that but they actually got involved in spiritualism over there and I ran and
00:41:56And because of these healings like the spiritualism were very much in
00:42:00Interested in that there's around 1946 that the retired millionaire
00:42:05Krikor Achillean, you know brought him here and Krikor said it was only as a last resort because like say he spent
00:42:11You know two hundred fifty thousand dollars already, you know own his son's healing. So it was really a last resort
00:42:18thing and and
00:42:20Avak said he could do it
00:42:22If if the patient only believed in his gift
00:42:25So another another way that Avak presented himself is that if you can believe me believe in my gift, you'll get healed same way
00:42:33Branham said, you know
00:42:35The angel told him that if you can believe me
00:42:37You get the people to believe in what you're saying about about the visit of the angel. They'll get healed
00:42:43So so very much different than and probably how the Bible teaches how you should believe healing, you know
00:42:49And so the newspapers were all abuzz with a box visit. So that's how his fame all started
00:42:54It just started with that that visit to Krikor Achillean and how he got a start, right? There's so many similarities
00:43:01I mean we could probably do a whole episode on just the similarities between the two
00:43:06but the the big takeaways for me is
00:43:09the way that these men were manipulating the crowds they wanted people to see that there was not just a
00:43:18Single presence it initially started with Avok, but then they brought other people into the mix
00:43:24They brought Branham and they're trying to show that this was the format formation of a movement. This was something that was
00:43:32Igniting a I don't know what the word that they use because we don't have access to the recordings
00:43:37but in the NAR terms, they would say this was igniting a revival and
00:43:41These are the spiritual leaders of the revival. That's how it would be said in today's words
00:43:46And they
00:43:48established the notion that the people could connect to God through these men as mediators and they also
00:43:57set the precedent of
00:43:59setting the
00:44:01Agenda of the movement to focus on the experience rather than the outcome
00:44:08If you look at these newspapers, they don't really care so much that
00:44:12What these men are saying they can claiming that they can do isn't happening
00:44:16they want the experience so people are coming in throngs to see these healers and
00:44:22There's a point out. It gets mundane reading through all of the newspaper articles on Avok
00:44:27but if you read through the fine details of
00:44:31The months that were spent out there quote-unquote healing this young man
00:44:36Avok gets tired of the crowds and they're all coming. You can tell they're probably asking him
00:44:41Why isn't he healed you said that you're healing him and nothing is happening
00:44:45It gets to the point where all these people are coming to pray for coming for their own
00:44:50prayer for their own situations and Avok is saying that I only have the I
00:44:56Don't know what the word he used but it basically I only have the energy
00:45:00To heal for a limited period of time per day
00:45:04and and that window of time gets shorter and shorter and shorter as time progressed because he's getting tired of these people and
00:45:12the more time that he gives himself to the people the more people that are going to
00:45:19Claim me believe his claims that they're going to be healed and the more people that aren't healed
00:45:23So if you expand that window your chance of success is greatly diminished
00:45:28So they close the window and they say only only a little bit of you know
00:45:32a few of the people for a few minutes basically and if you look what happened in the early years of latter rain Branham would
00:45:38say the same thing the I
00:45:40Can't you probably remember the word Branham used but basically the the stamina goes out of him
00:45:46he says I can't I can only do a few at a time and and then there comes a point when I think it was
00:45:51about the time that the
00:45:53Wireless earpiece was invented there comes a point where he says now I'll be able to do this for hours on end
00:45:59But prior prior to that point
00:46:02He says I can only do it a little bit and then I get just so weak
00:46:05They have to carry me off the stage
00:46:07Well, there's a reason for this right if you stay up there the more people that you tell are healed
00:46:12Well, they go home and they're not healed
00:46:14those people are gonna get very very angry and so Avoc and these men set the stage for
00:46:20The experience is more important than the outcome
00:46:24the healer is more important than the God that heals and
00:46:29The movement is a move of God where you can gain access to God
00:46:35through these men and that was the precedent that was set and
00:46:39Again, look at the NAR today. Look at all of the movements leading up to the NAR
00:46:44It's always about the mediators between God and man, which is in direct violation
00:46:49If you read passages like, you know, Paul's letters to Timothy, there is no mediator between God and man
00:46:55Well, these guys did not want to set that precedent because there's no money in that
00:47:00They want to set the precedent go for the mediator because that mediator can collect your money
00:47:07That's exactly right, you know, they they made a lot of money and continued to this day making tons of money
00:47:13We see these ministries that are built all on the prosperity gospel
00:47:17Just buying 50 million dollar jets jet planes so they can fly around and enjoy themselves
00:47:23Along them on religion the money that it makes but it continues to make to this day, you know millions and millions of dollars
00:47:31So getting yeah, you were right these these experiences like people had in these meetings, you know
00:47:37You know Branham will say I get very weak, you know virtues going out of me
00:47:41They would only do about you know, he would only call about ten or so to the stage and I guess even in Roy's book
00:47:47he said they passed out the prayer cards and and Branham used those as sort of a
00:47:52Almost like a fortune-telling which was in in in what we know
00:47:57we call it the word of knowledge and so forth that we believed it was a gift, but
00:48:01If you only just ten is about all you could probably memorize at a time if you were using the prayer cards
00:48:06You know for that purpose. So but the services themselves were very powerful in a sense the music
00:48:12You know swayed people the experience that you had prior to the man ever
00:48:16Stepping on to the platform the people were primed and ready
00:48:19So the few that he would call to the platform and then supposedly get weak and have to be taken off
00:48:25He would do a mass prayer for everyone. And so that that's how it that's how it was staged and and it was very effective
00:48:33our a block
00:48:35Very similar to what Branham would always say and what Bosworth and all them would teach he said
00:48:41About talking about people's healing. It depended on the patient's degree of faith and then another statement about Vaughn
00:48:48He said I'm sure I can cure him. So on both sides of his mouth
00:48:51He's saying well, it depends on your faith and then he says I'm sure I can I can cure you
00:48:56So that they believed that they could do it
00:48:58But then they it didn't if it failed at all, well the person's faith failed. It wasn't me
00:49:04Avak also is known to been said have faith in me and you will be healed
00:49:09And then when the prayer of this lady that he was praying for after he told that to her
00:49:13It did not bring any change to her
00:49:15He said he said after that I must do it in my own time in my own way
00:49:20So they always have some kind of excuse for for the person that's not healed
00:49:24Some newspapers quoted Avak is saying no matter what your nationality or religion keep faith in me and you will get well
00:49:32Now in Branham's early days, there's a sermon in
00:49:361947 about November called the angel of God
00:49:38We took a lot from that and there's a lot said in that and that's probably why we don't have a lot of the earlier
00:49:43Recordings because my who knows what really went on behind us in those meetings. I would love to really know
00:49:51So Branham was talking about the miracle line if you ever go back to his earliest recordings
00:49:55He tended to want to display the power and such that he would create these miracle lines
00:50:00People were asking him, you know, put put all the cripples up there and let's say you heal everyone
00:50:05He said there'll be a miracle line for nothing but cripples and then when the cripples weren't getting healed
00:50:10He claimed that well, he was only doing it by the permissive will of God not the divine will of God
00:50:15God permitted it for a time, but he had to quit all that because nobody was getting healed and he even said that
00:50:22He gave another excuse there was some deaf people that came before him and he said the vibrations in his hand left
00:50:28But then it said immediately it came back and the person wasn't healed and he said he some of his quotes here
00:50:37I'll mention first that when he got rebuked by the angel
00:50:40He said he said he stood in the hotel room
00:50:42There was a big rainbow and mist in the room and standing there before those people and told me I was confining
00:50:47too much of this gift of healing to working miracles and he said
00:50:52But then he also said I've never seen all my life till this afternoon
00:50:55Anything lay before the gift of healing without it being healed
00:50:58So he was already having issues with success in his ministry right there in 1947 about people that weren't getting healed
00:51:06And so that's how he he told this he even talked about the deaf people
00:51:10He said out of this entire meeting
00:51:12There's been several deaf people come by here and after I called that even the vibrations wouldn't even leave
00:51:17He said that's right. It would leave and it take a hold of them and come back again
00:51:21He said it was just a witness
00:51:22So what he was trying to do is blame the failures of the healings on this miracle line that was created
00:51:28That he claimed that what God permitted it for a time, but now I'm not doing that anymore
00:51:33I'm only gonna do it. You know the way the angel tells me to do it and that's where he started bringing
00:51:39fewer and fewer people before him because eventually he as we know left the field out of collapse from trying to pray for thousands of
00:51:47people and
00:51:48One by one and so no man could withstand all that
00:51:52So so he also says remember don't come to me and ask me to perform any more miracles anymore
00:51:58Now God has permitted it to this time. He said every one of you is a witness. Is that right?
00:52:03He wanted to keep everything in the prayer line
00:52:05He says everybody thinks everything's a miracle line as we told you or asked you rather
00:52:10Here's interesting. He was pretty actually praying in this and we got kind of a blank spot on tape here
00:52:15But he's actually praying to God at this time and he prayed to God this way and we told you
00:52:21He said or ask you rather if you would bring everyone here and heal them that I would continue on to have nothing but miracle
00:52:27Lines, but if you did not heal the people in miracle line
00:52:29Then it'd be a witness that you were not going to heal the people by letting them pass by and believe
00:52:34He said now the angel of God told me it would come to pass
00:52:37They wouldn't believe unless there was a miracle. He says your words have been proved true
00:52:41So that's that's generally how he spun that at the time because of these failures and healing that were occurring
00:52:48And then later on just 20 days later
00:52:52He's got the miracle line again
00:52:54He says and especially this afternoon to you who shall come in this miracle line
00:52:58Don't you dare come unless you promise God with all your heart and mean it that you will serve him the rest of your life
00:53:04So the people were very primed for these
00:53:06Miracle lines because they really believed in his powers
00:53:09Same way they believed in a vox powers prior to him coming to the United States
00:53:13It really primes your adrenaline your emotions and you're expecting really something to happen through this man of God
00:53:19And he becomes the great power of God as we mentioned and that's not what Paul wanted
00:53:23To present before the people is that I'm some great power of God and have this miracle line and it's all about healing
00:53:30You know really was supposed to be about the salvation of the soul as we mentioned
00:53:34And he talks about in that same service, you know talk about the child come together
00:53:40He said he healed the deaf girl and she said now the child is healed and he's tried to talk to her
00:53:46He said he couldn't even yell at her beat my hands together
00:53:48And she couldn't even hear and then he cast it forth again. And then in the end he said I just left the child alone
00:53:54He couldn't he couldn't even touch her to be healed. He says she couldn't even hear me when he another man
00:54:01He couldn't hear when he beat his hand behind him
00:54:03So so he talked about those failures there and he had to change his methods and or otherwise
00:54:08He might have been with the same reputation Avoc had where his popularity really dropped off
00:54:13They were gonna have to change something in a hurry
00:54:15So they changed the way they were doing the meetings and like I say, we don't have those early recordings
00:54:19We just have these few and we're very fortunate to have these ones in 1947
00:54:24Even but there was plenty more recordings prior to that as we know, but it's just amazing what we could find on those tapes
00:54:31if we only
00:54:32Was able to go back and hear them
00:54:34but during that time in the 1930s and 40s
00:54:36There was other people that rose up there was a man that called himself the reincarnation of the Prophet Isaiah
00:54:42There was and his he was quickly forgotten there after a while and there was other men that rose up
00:54:50And instead but so so people were very primed in those days for these great men to rise up
00:54:55It was just a special time in American history, I guess and and it was just prime time for these ministries
00:55:01But but men that wanted to make the money they saw the opportunities there. So I'll talk more about that in a minute
00:55:07There's definitely money to be made
00:55:10That's pure plain and simple
00:55:12In fact, if you go look at some of the quotes that William Branham mentions
00:55:16he mentions being with Avoc and he mentions being with the people who sponsored him, which is obviously the
00:55:21Kardashians the Shakarians and
00:55:24Branham formed a long-term relationship with the full gospel businessman, which was ran by Dima Shakarian
00:55:31it's funny because
00:55:33He he mentions that they they tell him we gave Avoc a Cadillac. We'd like to give you one, too
00:55:40We want to give you some money like we're giving Avoc some money and Branham says no. No, no
00:55:44I can't picture myself doing this and then we've got photographs where he accepted the Cadillac from these people
00:55:50So there was definitely money flowing through it and how they used it, you know
00:55:55It remains to be seen but you can see some some expensive watches and some other things enter Branham's ministry after this point
00:56:04but you're right and there was a point in time in which a Vox ministry diminished and
00:56:10that's where this gets really interesting because as
00:56:14Branham goes out there to work to heal this sick boy. The boy never gets healed
00:56:20You can go back and you can read the newspapers
00:56:22It's difficult to find because his failure in healing is not publicized
00:56:27But the prayer for his healing is coast to coast
00:56:31And so this entire throng is here. The boy is being prayed for
00:56:35nobody cares that there is no healing that comes from this and that's what set the stage for this whole thing and
00:56:43then
00:56:45Whatever happens we don't again. We don't have those recordings. We don't have the record
00:56:49Something happens where the focus shifts from a Vox Hagopian to William Branham and after that shift is made
00:56:57You can watch the newspapers all of these
00:57:01all of this throng just basically starts following Branham away from a Vox and
00:57:06They follow Branham well up into you can find similar articles in Canada
00:57:11when Branham goes up into Canada and sweeps across from
00:57:15The east to the west in Canada and sparks what would become the latter rain revivals
00:57:21You can see
00:57:22Articles in the newspapers where those cities are inundated from people from the United States and they can't support them. There's not
00:57:30Housing there's not hotels enough to handle them all so they're going into houses and you know of people who are in
00:57:38like-minded faith up in Canada and
00:57:40The throng has left a Vox and so I found one article
00:57:44I'll try to find it for the video version of this podcast, but I found one article where it's just really kind of
00:57:51Sad when you think about it a Vox
00:57:54Goes he leaves the Archealeons and he goes up north to hold a revival up there
00:57:59after having toured through the United States carrying a throng with him and
00:58:03Then he gets off the plane and I want to say the article if I'm remembering correctly
00:58:07I want to say there was only like three people to greet him. All the rest of them had gone with William Branham and
00:58:14We know based off of what we're seeing here that if the Shakarians were sponsoring him and the connections with full gospel
00:58:21Businessmen continued for the entire rest of William Branham's life. It's likely they were involved to some extent
00:58:27we don't know what extent but it went across Canada and then back into the United States in a very
00:58:34Carnival like fashion if you read the newspapers signs wonders miracles just just like they advertise today
00:58:41but the throng of people had left a Vox and
00:58:45Again, you cannot have a latter rain in the form that it existed without a Vox because he's the one that
00:58:51Collected the initial group of people
00:58:54Then they went to Branham left a Vox behind and then that spread throughout the globe all of those people
00:59:01Spreading this movement as though this is a movement by God
00:59:05But they had lost the focus of did it actually work and did the guy actually get healed that sparked the whole thing?
00:59:12And he did not
00:59:14Yeah, all that you said was correct there. So I want to mention this real quick
00:59:19You know Tom Kardashian William Peru room Ian
00:59:23They realized how much money could be made. So all that you're saying there is just absolutely right is all about the money there and
00:59:31Avoc was reported to be under their wing at that time and the paper reported it like this
00:59:36He says a public relations officer issues a bulletin that the first days take
00:59:42He said beg pardon love offering amounted to twenty nine hundred and twenty two dollars
00:59:47That was in the Los Angeles Times in nineteen forty seven September. So twenty nine hundred and twenty two dollars and forty seven is
00:59:54Forty one thousand two hundred fourteen dollars in today's money. So that's quite a sum of money forty one thousand dollars a day taken in
01:00:04Clem Davies came on the scene about that time because of course he saw the money to be made and believe it or not
01:00:08Clem Davies had already sponsored a Hindu guru. So Clem Daisy Davies wasn't about Christianity
01:00:14It was about whoever he could build up before the people that will make him a lot of money
01:00:19Christianity tended to be the majority religion in the United States. So Clem Davies saw that as a way on his gravy train
01:00:26And which he actually had a train that went around the United States carrying people to promote this
01:00:31But Clem Clem Davies became his new sponsor and companion in the USA
01:00:36And they started holding these mass healing events Tom Kardashian was actually a vox interpreter
01:00:42So calm Tom Kardashian had his two other folks there with him and they were all making this money
01:00:48Clem Davies was asking for visa extensions for a VAC and actually got it and
01:00:55But Clem Davies the Immigration and Naturalization Service noted in a memo
01:00:59That a VAC was in contact with Clem Davies who had close ties to various fascist groups and was together with a VAC
01:01:06Suspected of collecting funds illegally. So that was something else reported
01:01:11and and in these healing revivals a lot of newspapers would question about healing and
01:01:18I think we even had one in Branham's ministry where the newspapers were investigating
01:01:24They want to know are people really getting healed and they asked
01:01:27Bosworth to stand up and ask the people to come forward anybody that got healed and they did and it was said in the newspapers
01:01:34Not one person even stepped forward that was healed in the meeting and then so they brought up this excuse
01:01:39Well, well people when they get healed, they just go home. They don't stay for the meetings
01:01:43So that was one way here in the Canadian press
01:01:46There was a Tinkham that wrote this article
01:01:49I guess said there was no medical evidence that any of the
01:01:523,500 people that a VAC had treated had benefited from his prayers and laying on of hands, so
01:01:59They they announced we healed all these thousands of people
01:02:02but there was no medical evidence that anybody got healed and the train finally pulled into Los Angeles in November of
01:02:091947 and his tour came to an end
01:02:11That's when Tom Kardashian quit following him because Tom Kardashian wanted to build a temple for a VAC and
01:02:17You know, I guess to have him placed to camp out and do his services right there in Los Angeles
01:02:22But Tom Kardashian then backed away and the real reason it says that he distanced himself from a VAC after the tour was
01:02:30He was assisted by Clem Davies and and he thought they were frauds. So that's why he basically backed away
01:02:37So so a VAC became very unpopular in the West because of his failure to heal and he moved
01:02:43He eventually moved to east to Miami and that's where that's where a lot of the interesting things started
01:02:48We're not gonna have time to go through it on this podcast
01:02:50I know but he distanced himself
01:02:52physically from from the West Coast because of his failure to completely cure Vaughn and he started his ministry there and
01:03:00And an interesting now reflection
01:03:03That was noted in the book here
01:03:05By Roy, I guess he said a VAC had already reached a point where his critical self-reflection was no longer possible
01:03:11He believed in his divine election
01:03:13Separation from the masses the admiration he received from his followers only confirmed his belief in himself
01:03:20Doubt and criticism of his abilities were questioned his dignity
01:03:24Something he equated with disbelief
01:03:26Anyone who did not believe in him was not a true Christian
01:03:29It is this inner logic of his if one can speak of logic which explains his behavior from then on out
01:03:35So that's very much like what we see in the message, you know
01:03:38If you if you disbelieve you're questioning, you know
01:03:40We're questioning the abilities of Branham say you're you're seen as not even being a true Christian
01:03:45And that's that's how you get kicked out of the movement, basically
01:03:50So it's about this time when he got to Miami that that's when Clem Davies was with him
01:03:55and then he was visited by William Branham in Jeffersonville and
01:03:59William Branham used the meeting with a VAC for his own publicity putting it in the voice of healing magazine and that's generally how
01:04:06It was used Clem Davies used it for his further furtherance of his
01:04:11Boasting and getting more money
01:04:13but that was about the time William Branham had some meetings with little David Walker, which y'all mentioned before and the
01:04:20Spectacular show they were showing there about him levitating off the ground and and all those things
01:04:25And and William Branham actually viewed a VAC as an inspiration
01:04:30For some time and it also said as we mentioned before it took him as the visual model the angel that met with him
01:04:38so so a VAC kept trying to get
01:04:41Event extensions of his visa and eventually had to leave the country living in Cuba for some time
01:04:47And all these this time is where it gets interesting with a VAC
01:04:50Like I said, there were women that came into his life and he eventually broke up a marriage and
01:04:56Costing this one man millions of dollars to finally get his marriage dissolved, but actually these women were set up
01:05:03Close to a VAC and they actually became his mistresses and he actually called them temple brides
01:05:09so eventually he got off into
01:05:12Immorality, it's not spoken of very much and nothing's ever said about it
01:05:16But it was kept under the cover, but we see that being a part of a lot of these ministries
01:05:21You know, it eventually creeps in and these men
01:05:24They don't ever get married
01:05:26But they do have a harem now a VAC eventually being in Cuba for that time wanted to come back to the United States
01:05:32Because that's where he wanted his home to be. So eventually he married the 16 year old girl
01:05:37One of the ones of the women in the u.s. That was supporting his ministry
01:05:41Married her daughter and
01:05:43That marriage was believed just to be for the sake of him getting to the u.s
01:05:47To become a citizen because once you get married you can become a citizen. So he married a 16 year old girl and
01:05:54Became a US citizen then eventually that marriage was annulled
01:05:59for obvious reasons and
01:06:01He stayed in the u.s. From then on out and had his ministry, but but he did have his harem
01:06:07He did it has mentioned that book we won't go into it, but boy, I invite to read the listeners to get that book and read
01:06:13it
01:06:14But a vac actually gets ordained as a Pentecostal holiness minister in 1949
01:06:21They felt his ministry was legitimate they ordained him as the Pentecostal holiness Church
01:06:26But eventually they let him go to when they learned about his immorality
01:06:30and
01:06:31It said a vac self-promotion and appearance are strongly reminiscent of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine of the latter days movement
01:06:39So we see a lot of that tied together, you know with what the when the Manifest Sons of God doctrine began around the 19 late
01:06:461940s so
01:06:48It was mostly an Armenian group that there were surrounding a vac at the time in Miami
01:06:52So so a vac was breaking up these marriages and this one big story that became in the newspapers a lot
01:07:01It was a
01:07:02Frederica Phillips and Cha Chao the divorce decree was to Chao versus Chao, but Frederica
01:07:09She ended up taking a lot and her and a vac kind of did stay together
01:07:13But the value that she got was 2.2 million dollars in addition to four hotel properties
01:07:19Very very large sum of money. So we see how a vac strategy, you know to keep himself very well off and
01:07:28Eventually when Frederica died
01:07:31She left him a quite a sum of money
01:07:33He was awarded three thousand US dollars annually and that's a salary of forty two thousand dollars
01:07:38You know today today's money pretty good sum of money back in those days
01:07:43He also got another two thousand dollars to cover college expenses for any children. He might have one day
01:07:49And that's pretty prophetic as well because he eventually had some children out of wedlock that actually took on his name
01:07:56So a vac eventually stayed in the United States all these years and eventually died died here, but he used
01:08:03He used that healing revival
01:08:05Momentum to carry him on through and kind of became a little cult leader of his own moved up into New York
01:08:11they bought this
01:08:13castle like place and
01:08:15He you know his his hallway his bedroom down the hall. They said was very close to the women
01:08:21I
01:08:22Guess that would go in and out of his room at times
01:08:24So it's kind of an under-the-cover thing that that would happen, but so that's how a vac ended up
01:08:30You know, he just ended up with a small group of following
01:08:32They didn't really become nationwide and it kind of fizzled out but there may still be a following there today
01:08:38That still follows the teachings of a vac. What was created was a complete mess
01:08:44You're playing simple. I don't know any other way to explain it and I know people are listening to this and thinking yeah
01:08:50But how does this tie to latter rain? How does it I mentioned Pentecostal ism?
01:08:54how who was the man that I'm talking about Pentecostal ism where you mentioned little David Walker and
01:09:00You can study latter rain and look anybody who's familiar with latter rain knows little David Walker
01:09:06It's it's a story of the the floating levitating boy, right that toured with William Branham
01:09:12Well, he was literally owned by chaplain Raymond Hoekstra who was one of Branham's early campaign manager ministers
01:09:20you can go look up the lawsuits that were involved in the the parents losing the Sun and then the fight to get him back and
01:09:27Anyway, he created the stage act of I think he called them the atom
01:09:32You had the healer and the atom William Branham and little David Walker
01:09:36Well in that photograph of a vac sitting there with William Branham
01:09:40Standing off to the right and in the corner of this is chaplain Raymond Hoekstra
01:09:45So whenever the Kardashians the shakarians all of these wealthy people were bringing in all of the Christian identity folk
01:09:53They also brought in the Pentecostal
01:09:55stage act manager
01:09:58Raymond Hoekstra chaplain ray and as we'll get into later in our episodes
01:10:03He plays a significant role in multiple phases of William Branham's ministry from the era in the you know in the early
01:10:111947's all the way to the
01:10:14Cloud story that we'll get into the crazy
01:10:17The crazy thing where all of the message people see this cloud and they think they're seven angels
01:10:22Raymond Hoekstra played a role in that as well. So Raymond Hoekstra was involved in this from start to finish and so
01:10:30The combination of all of this it seals the deal for me
01:10:33This was deeply connected to latter rain, even though latter rain not yet fully existed
01:10:39This thing that they created that these men gathered all of the Christian identity leaders together to
01:10:46Create a movement. It worked. They did create a movement and
01:10:50That you know, they didn't claim ownership of the movement
01:10:53But it sparked in in the Canada and came back in the United States and then they capitalized off of it
01:10:59heavily
01:11:00Financially capitalized off of it. So we'll get into that in future episodes
01:11:04But anyway, it's a crazy side story and I think we're gonna have a few crazy side stories as we go
01:11:11So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web
01:11:16You can find us at William dash Branham org for more information about Roy Davis and William Branham
01:11:22You can read the persuasive preacher the gifted prophet and the noble politician
01:11:28For more information about the dark side of the NAR and Christian identity. You can read from
01:11:33Weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle and soon audible
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