Parents and teachers are buzzing with the question: should UPSR and PT3 exams return? These crucial exams, once a staple of Malaysian education, were discontinued three years ago. Now, calls are growing louder for their comeback.
Life & the City tackles this hot-button issue head-on in its ninth episode.
Hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab are joined by Parent Action Group for Education (PAGE) chairman Datin Noor Azimah Abd Rahim as they dissect the pros and cons of reintroducing these national exams, compare them to the current school-based assessment system, and explore how a potential return might impact learning environments and admissions to prestigious schools.
The podcast is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star’s YouTube channel (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
Life & the City tackles this hot-button issue head-on in its ninth episode.
Hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab are joined by Parent Action Group for Education (PAGE) chairman Datin Noor Azimah Abd Rahim as they dissect the pros and cons of reintroducing these national exams, compare them to the current school-based assessment system, and explore how a potential return might impact learning environments and admissions to prestigious schools.
The podcast is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star’s YouTube channel (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
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NewsTranscript
00:00Should the national exams, namely UPSR and PT3, make a comeback?
00:09What do parents think?
00:10Where do teachers stand?
00:12And how will it affect students?
00:14Welcome everyone to the ninth episode of Life in the City, a podcast where we will discuss
00:20this interesting topic.
00:22And joining me as usual is my co-host Farid Wahab.
00:25Thank you, Aida.
00:26Now, let's cut to the chase.
00:28Currently, there have been calls from certain quarters for the UPSR and PT3 exams to be
00:34reinstated.
00:37We are joined today by Datin Nur Azimah Abdurahim, who is also chairman of the Parent Action
00:43Group for Education, pitched to dissect this issue.
00:47Before we begin, I would love to get our listeners up to speed about what we know so far.
00:52So UPSR and PT3 were discontinued in 2021.
00:57This decision was part of a reform aimed at transitioning to a school-based assessment
01:01system.
01:02UPSR and PT3 were replaced with the school-based assessment, which is an evaluation that assesses
01:09students' performance in both academic achievements and extracurricular participation.
01:14However, recently, our education minister, Fadlina Sidiq, was reported by the media as
01:22saying that the suggestion to reinstate these exams will be brought to the Cabinet meeting.
01:27Thanks, Farid.
01:28Let's get started.
01:29Welcome, Datin.
01:31We are happy to have you on our podcast.
01:35This should be an insightful show today.
01:41So Datin, how has the reception been three years after the abolition of UPSR and PT3?
01:50I think initially, parents were quite open to it.
01:55We've always supported it for good reason, I think.
02:01But it's only of late that some parents have been concerned about the way it's going.
02:08But I think before we cut to the chase, as Farid says, I think we need to know a bit
02:14of background.
02:15Sure.
02:17Okay, I'm just looking at the blueprint here, 2013-2025.
02:23There were so many shifts, right, in the blueprint.
02:26It's a fantastic blueprint.
02:28And shift one here says, provide equal access to quality education of an international standard.
02:36It says here, Malaysian students have historically always excelled at reproducing subject content,
02:44basically regurgitating, right?
02:47And it says, however, this skill is less valuable in today's ever-changing economy.
02:53Instead, students need to be able to reason, to extrapolate, and to creatively apply their
03:00knowledge in novel and unfamiliar settings.
03:04They also need attributes such as leadership to be globally competitive.
03:10So this is the start of actually why we switched from national exams to school-based assessments
03:18or PBS.
03:20And I think that one of the reasons why we needed to review the education system at that
03:30time was because of this.
03:33National exams basically produce robots.
03:39They were just regurgitating facts.
03:42They weren't actually learning.
03:46They were just going to school, memorizing essays, memorizing keywords, spotting questions.
04:01The teachers were drilling their students, and they were just handing pages, 20 pages
04:09of homework every other day because the teachers had to complete the syllabus.
04:17So there was no real learning.
04:21It was about chasing A's.
04:25But the question is, what does that mean for those who are not academy-inclined?
04:32It's good for parents whose children are academy-inclined to be wanting to chase these A's because maybe
04:40they can afford it.
04:42They can afford the extra tuition, for instance.
04:47But what about the majority of them who are not academy-inclined?
04:52So if you look at this PBS, it's not about A's, B's, and C's anymore.
05:00Before it was, you know, my son gets an A, he's better than you.
05:05He's better than your son who sits next to him in class.
05:10And then it was just chasing A's.
05:15And probably now we wonder why children want to go to school.
05:22This could be one of the reasons.
05:24They're not getting the A's, and then they either get bullied or they get neglected.
05:30So if you look also at the way it's being assessed now through the tahap taksiran, one
05:39to six, one is the lowest, six is the highest.
05:45And if you look at just what it says here under taksiran one, it talks about pekara
05:51asas atau kemahiran asas.
05:56And then taksiran two is about with this pekara asas that you have, can you communicate it?
06:04And then taksiran tiga, with your pekara asas and your komunikasi, are you able to use
06:11the knowledge, you know, to apply?
06:15Then tahap four goes on about with the competencies acquired in taksiran one, two and three.
06:23Are you able to analyse and be systematic in your thinking?
06:30And then taksiran five is about being positive about what you have achieved.
06:37And then number six is about can you set an example to your other friends with all these
06:42competencies that you have?
06:44So it's understandable that parents want the A's because that's what they know.
06:53You see, they think it probably did work then.
06:56Programme already, right?
06:57It probably did work then.
06:59But I think assessments have to be more broad and wide also because our national education
07:08policy is about producing holistic students.
07:12It's not about producing straight A students, you know.
07:16So this is it.
07:18And then I think it was an eye-opener also when we started to get involved in the TEAMS
07:24and PISA assessments.
07:26Because TEAMS and PISA assessments was looking at problem-solving, creativity, innovation.
07:32These are what employers are looking for now in the graduates which are coming out of the
07:37system.
07:39So we learn this from them and the reason why we're not excelling in TEAMS and PISA
07:44is because we're still regurgitating facts.
07:49They call it content recall.
07:51You know, that's what we're doing.
07:52We're actually not learning.
07:54So hence the PBS comes in, whereby, well, teachers are supposed to follow this assessment
08:03system.
08:04But I think the shortfall is, so what if you are at TP1?
08:13How do we go up to TP2?
08:16These are the hard questions that the parents need to ask the teachers and the teachers
08:20must have the answers.
08:22Probably the teachers are not giving the right answers.
08:25So that's why the parents are concerned.
08:28But why are some quarters suddenly pushing for these exams to be reinstated now, three
08:33years after the fact?
08:35I think three years is a very short time.
08:38And I think as far as the ministry is concerned, I think they have a poor reputation of flip-flopping.
08:46You know, they did that with the teaching of science and maths in English and now with
08:50DLP before, all schools could do 100% science and maths in English and now they're saying
08:56we want one class back to be in BM or Tamil.
08:59That's a flip-flop to me.
09:02So if they are going to flip-flop on this UPSR and PT3 thing, I think it's really bad
09:08because it reflects poorly on the Ministry of Education.
09:11What are some of the concerns about the current system?
09:14I think it's about, parents, I think, have to open their minds and I think they have
09:21to interact with their teachers more, you know, just because the kids don't come up
09:29with A's, B's and C's.
09:31Speak more with the teachers.
09:33Find out what needs to be done.
09:36How can parents help?
09:38It's a three tripartite relationship anyway, you know.
09:43And how about assessing when you have report card day?
09:46How about changing things?
09:49How about the teacher speaking to the student and then the parent is witnessing the conversation
09:59At the moment, report card day is the teacher talking to the parent and the student is just,
10:08he's there, he's physically there, but his mind isn't there because he's not interacting
10:14in the conversation.
10:15So let's try this, you know.
10:17And let's hear from the student what they need to say, you know, because in the end
10:24it involves the student.
10:25So the teacher should ask the student, you know, you're in tahap dua, how do you think
10:30you can go up to tahap 3?
10:33Let the student, students got great potential, let's hear from them.
10:42And then the three of them sit down and figure out what needs to be done next because actually
10:48this PBS fits very nicely with Tivet because suddenly we realise that we need to go into
10:54Tivet, right?
10:55Because the PBS actually assesses not just academics, but it also assesses your skills,
11:04your skill sets.
11:05So as you go along, you may find that you've got very good skills which need to be nurtured
11:12and you are set to go into the Tivet stream which can be quite, you can be earning quite
11:21a lot from Tivet once we get our act together.
11:25Thank you, Datin, for the brief introduction into this topic.
11:28It wasn't brief.
11:29Okay.
11:30It's quite insightful.
11:31Quite insightful, all right.
11:33The background is important because parents have to realise this, you know, that there
11:38is another way of assessing aside from A's, B's and C's.
11:42Yeah.
11:43I think you said that in our education pull-out last Sunday, Dr G Malika Vasugi said that,
11:52like what you said, Datin, assessments in schools have also diversified to include alternative
11:57forms such as portfolios, projects and practical components alongside final exams.
12:02So like, heeding to what you just said, a more holistic and reflective of true learning
12:09outcomes, wouldn't you say, right?
12:11Yeah.
12:13Datin, we are going to transition into the first part of this, into the next part of
12:17this podcast which is we are going to discuss the pressure to perform and this applies to
12:22both students and teachers.
12:24So the first topic that we want to talk about is there have been claims that national exams
12:28exert an impact on children's mental health.
12:32Where do you stand on this?
12:33Yeah, I totally agree with it because with national exams, you could be sleeping for
12:44the first nine months of the year and then suddenly you realise there's national exams
12:50at the end of the year.
12:52It's not just mental health of students, I think it's also mental health of teachers
12:58because they have to complete the syllabus by crook.
13:02And when the teacher is stressed and the student is stressed, the parent gets stressed
13:08as well.
13:10So I don't think that it's a good idea to be all stressed out over exams and I think
13:16mental health also.
13:17I think we had this before in the past but we didn't actually define what mental health
13:24is.
13:25But because there's so many studies on mental health now, it's actually become a major factor
13:32in educating children.
13:33That's right, yeah.
13:34You know, before we would just breeze through it, well, we were stressed out ourselves but
13:40there wasn't a term to describe it and now there is.
13:43I actually think, prior to, I mean, to prepare for this podcast, I spoke to a number of parents
13:52who I asked them this exact question and they said, some of them said, have a different
13:59opinion than yours.
14:00They said that perhaps having that pressure is actually a good thing because they said
14:05without that, in the absence of that pressure, students are becoming complacent, they're
14:11not putting in as much effort into their studies and these parents, they said that having that
14:16pressure is actually a motivation for them to do better.
14:20So I think if I was to, if I want to play devil's advocate here, it's not really, it's
14:25not about not having pressure, it's about teaching our children how to handle the pressure.
14:32I mean, I think, personally, I feel like having a little bit of pressure might be a good thing
14:37and it might actually be good to prepare them for the real world because in the working
14:41world, there's going to be pressure when you enter the job market.
14:44Yeah.
14:45Definitely.
14:46And one parent that provided some feedback said that, we need both exams to know the
14:55performance of the children, be it primary or secondary.
14:58With the exams, they can know whether the children are on par with peers or lacking
15:03behind.
15:04Okay.
15:05Let's look at it this way, PBS, it's not that there are no exams.
15:09You have your formative exams after so many months, right, in the first term, and then
15:15you have your second formative exams.
15:18So this is more consistent assessment, which is good, you know, so teachers got time to
15:23explain things rather than teaching to the test.
15:27I must finish my syllabus, it's too bad if you can't follow me.
15:30That's the way it is now.
15:32But now they have time to sit down, you know, sit down, solve problems, do project work,
15:39and this actually fits nicely into your career because in the end, your career is about projects.
15:47Problem solving.
15:48Problem solving, you know.
15:50The bosses want you to solve problems over there because they can't solve it themselves
15:53and you always want the young minds to come up with out-of-the-box ideas, you know.
15:59So we do have this formative one, formative two, formative three throughout the year.
16:05And then recently, in fact, when the Minister of Education came in, I think she did hear
16:11about concerns about national exams.
16:13So she actually introduced this UASA, Ujian Akhir Sesi Akademik, which is at the end of
16:27the year.
16:29But what she's done also is that it's not just for Standard 6 and Form 3, but she's
16:36also introduced it at Standard 4, Standard 5, Standard 6, Form 1, Form 2, Form 3, which
16:43I think is a bit excessive.
16:45You were just talking about Standard 6 and Form 3, but she's, I think, overdone it.
16:52So I would rather keep the UASA, but just do it at Standard 6 and Form 3.
17:03Let's not stress the kids with Standard 4, Standard 5, Form 1, Form 2.
17:08There have been stories about children, I mean, we've all heard the stories, you know,
17:13that my relative did better, my cousin did better, and come Hari Raya, the parents would
17:19be comparing UPSA.
17:20I mean, this happened even in my family.
17:22You went through all of that.
17:23Yeah, I remember.
17:24Bragging rights.
17:25Yes.
17:26But I remember something during my Standard 6 year, I mean during my Standard 6, when
17:31I think at the time I scored 3A, 2Bs.
17:34And a lot of my friends after that went to MRSM, went to Eskolah Asrama Penuh, and when
17:41we met again six months after they came back, right, they came back, I mean after one year
17:45they came back and we met again, and of course there were comparisons.
17:50They were like, oh, our exams are far more difficult than your exam because you went
17:53to a regular daily school.
17:56Even though I said, you know, because of that, I felt motivated.
18:00I wanted to do better for PMR, during my time it was PMR.
18:03So I felt like I wanted to do better.
18:06But then they kept saying, well, our school's exams are far more difficult than your school
18:10exam.
18:12That made me a bit upset.
18:14The comparison made me upset.
18:15But the good thing at that time was, we had a standardised national exam.
18:21So come PMR, I scored straight As.
18:23This is not to brag, just to be clear, but I got straight As.
18:26And some of my friends who went to MRSM got, I think, 7A, 1B, 6A, 2Bs.
18:31So the present, I mean, having that standardised national exam, I think, gave me vindication
18:38that, huh, you're not as good as you said you were.
18:41Just a little bit of story here.
18:43So I feel like, while people say national exams can make students feel bad about comparison,
18:49but I feel like there's another aspect to it.
18:51Yeah, one parent said, they must read instead, no competition, no challenge, no markers to
18:57check the standards.
18:59No standards to check progress and improvise.
19:02Well, that's what the tahap pesari padpat serang, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is for.
19:09So obviously this parent doesn't understand.
19:12And probably the teachers didn't explain properly.
19:15I think, you know, it's very difficult for teachers to meet parents sometimes, especially
19:19when both parents are at work, right?
19:21So I think you should sit down, you know, it's so easy to, through social media, it's
19:25so easy to communicate with parents now.
19:28Parents just have to sit down and read and try to understand where the whole system is
19:34coming from, you know?
19:37You have to keep an open mind.
19:39I recently spoke to another parent who, I think her children is going to school in PJ,
19:44she has two children, and one of the things she told me is that, this is what she claims,
19:53I'm not sure if it's true, but she said that sometimes the school-based assessments may
19:57not accurately reflect her children's performance.
20:01And she related about her son's Tamil study, she said apparently the son scored a 3, whereas
20:11she believed that the son should score lower.
20:13Now normally we hear parents thinking that their children should score higher, but in
20:17her case she said that the teachers are somehow, because their students' performance, their
20:23grades, is their KPI, and when they are in charge of that KPI, you know, rather than
20:28having a national exam, now they are the ones, they are the ones marking the papers.
20:36So they don't want to look as bad, so they inflate the result, that's what she claims.
20:41So she did meet the teachers, she said, I don't think my son deserves this score.
20:46And the teacher said, okay, I will look at it again.
20:49So I think that there's a concern there, you know, that teachers might inflate the
20:54results to look better on paper, and I think there's also this unspoken competition between
21:00schools that who can produce better students, I mean, who can have, I mean, like the exams
21:05are not gone, the exams are there, so they might say, okay, our students tend to do better.
21:10And when they are the ones in charge of that assessment, you know, there's a real concern
21:14that they could inflate the results.
21:16So what is your take on that, Patin?
21:19Well, you know, teachers have a code of ethics, right?
21:23I think occasionally they need to be reminded of that, you know, and I think if teachers
21:30continue to over-inflate or be over-generous with marks, there will be a trust deficit.
21:37And I think that trust deficit is widening, especially if you look at the World Bank report
21:44recently, in April 2024, the report is called Strengthening the Bamboo Shoots, and I think
21:54it was quite a damning report, and to the extent that, I was at the launch of the report,
22:04to the extent that the Minister of Education, who was supposed to give closing remarks,
22:08didn't come.
22:10And the country managers struggled to give closing remarks off the cuff.
22:15And I think that's bad because it was an independent study, and it did say that our teachers need
22:23to improve, and I think the ministry's response later was that, yes, we are in the process
22:30of doing that, which is good, and I think that teachers' reputation is at stake, and
22:38I think if they continue to not do what they're supposed to do, according to the code ethics,
22:45I think we'll have a crisis in our hands.
22:48So I think teachers cannot do as they please, they are guided by benchmarks and student
22:58outcomes, and I think that if they take this very lightly, in the end, really, it's going
23:13to affect the nation as a whole, moving forward, because in the end, it will decide on the
23:21quality of the workforce.
23:24And if you're having a government that's bringing in so much foreign direct investments,
23:30and our own people cannot cope with the required skill sets and the required line of thinking,
23:40in the end, if you're bringing in all these investments, unfortunately, they'll have to
23:45bring in foreigners to do the work, because we can't do it ourselves.
23:50So where is the transfer of knowledge?
23:52So I think it's not just what happens in school, but what happens in the future, if
23:58we want to enjoy better quality of life and a higher gross domestic product.
24:03I want to share my experience, because after PMR, I was offered a place at a boarding school,
24:10Sekolah Baas Ramadpenuh, SBP as they call it, and I remember when I was in Form 3, we
24:20had coursework for Sejarah and Geography at the time.
24:24So we had to do a coursework, and for me at the time, because I didn't have a computer
24:28at home, it was a bit difficult for me to complete the coursework.
24:34But I did manage to, because I went to my mum's office, I got it done and everything.
24:38And then when I went to a boarding school, so this boarding school, they had students
24:43from Form 1, Form 2 and Form 3, but I came in at Form 4.
24:47So I saw the different approach, because this was a boarding school, it's not a regular
24:51daily school.
24:52So I remember the teachers placed the students in the computer lab, they gave them two days,
24:58you could not exit this room unless you've completed your coursework.
25:02And the teachers will be there monitoring you until they are satisfied with your coursework.
25:08So I see the difference in approach, whereas at regular schools, the teachers accept whatever
25:14work you submit, and they're going to grade that.
25:17But at the boarding school, at the more well-known school, the teachers, because of the name
25:24of the school, they want to maintain the name of that school.
25:27They sort of, you know, produce, they want to make sure that the students produce good
25:31enough of a work so that they can give them a good result.
25:34And I think that this is the problem.
25:38I wouldn't say problem, but the concerns when you move from exams to coursework.
25:43Because now, I mean, we are talking about wanting teachers and students to stop gaming
25:48the system, but they find another way to do so, you know, that's my concern.
25:54Because there have been talks about introducing more courseworks, and drawing from my personal
25:58experience, I see how that, you know, people still found a way around it, you know.
26:03Yeah, so perhaps the thing we can talk about how, you know, in this case, the abolition
26:11of UPSR and PT3 could affect the process of admission into boarding schools.
26:16Not a problem, actually.
26:17I don't see why it is a problem.
26:19Because boarding schools, they have the entry exams, you know, and it's good because these
26:28boarding schools know what kind of students they want.
26:31So you can tweak your questions in your entry examinations as to what kind of students you
26:37want.
26:38But if you are a secondary school, science secondary school, then you should, you know,
26:42you should be asking the hard questions, maths and science, you know.
26:47So not a problem at all, at all, actually.
26:53Again, because I asked a number of parents, so in the past normally you have to submit
26:59your UPSR results and the system will do its work.
27:03But now the individual school conducts the exam.
27:07So you need to go to those schools in order to sit for those exams.
27:12So there have been concerns from parents, for example, they are from Sabah and Sarawak,
27:16they want to send their children to the peninsula or the people in the peninsula want to send
27:19their children to Sabah and Sarawak.
27:21So it's quite a hassle for them to go to each individual school to try to secure a spot
27:26they are not even offered yet.
27:28So I think that there is a concern about that, yes.
27:32I think what's happened of late is they have centres.
27:37You don't actually have to go to the school that you intend to go to.
27:42You have centres and then you go to the centres closest to your home.
27:46It should not be a problem.
27:47So even if you are in Sabah, Sarawak, I think even if you want to come, say, a boarding
27:51school in the peninsula, you don't need to come to the peninsula to do the test.
27:56It can be done at the centre closest, in Sabah it could be in Kota Kinabalu, in Sarawak,
28:03it could be in Kuching, you know.
28:07Anyway, if you are a Sarawakian, I don't see why you want to go to the peninsula to further
28:13your studies because they are offering so many freebies in Sarawak now.
28:19What do you think of this comment by a parent, Datin?
28:25UPSR and P3-3 should be reinstated instead of only having these two.
28:29A yearly assessment is also essential for mental development of students and allow them
28:34to recognise and identify their passion that they wish to pursue, or their ambitions, to
28:40discover their potential for future careers.
28:43What do you think?
28:44I think the tahap pentakseran actually covers that, because it covers skills.
28:50Your UPSR and P3 doesn't actually assess you for skills.
29:00And the coursework that you do during the school year actually indicates your skill
29:10sets and your inclination towards certain skills.
29:19I think that's a good time to actually pick it up or maybe reinforce these skills because
29:25sometimes your skills turn into your hobbies and your hobbies turn into careers.
29:32That's true, yeah.
29:33Datin, there are concerns about unfair grading due to favouritism by teachers.
29:40I mean like what my lecturer in university likes to say, because I studied engineering,
29:47he said you can have the most best design system in the world, but ultimately what operates
29:55that system is humans, and humans are prone to errors, they are prone to emotions, and
30:00we are dealing with humans here.
30:02So there are concerns that teachers may be biased, may give higher marks to students
30:06they favour.
30:08So I think we've all been to school, I think we all understand that feeling when the teachers
30:12have their pets and you don't want those pets.
30:15So in the absence of national exams, standardised exams, where do we stand on this, favouritism?
30:23Because it's a real concern that some parents have.
30:26I think it's not just for teachers but civil servants at large.
30:30I think the government is very particular about gifts, and I think it doesn't just apply
30:39to other ministries but to teachers as well.
30:42You have to be objective in what you do, and everything must be done at arm's length and
30:48you must be independent.
30:50So if you are susceptible to gifts and altering marks because of the expensive gifts that
31:03you receive on Teacher's Day, then I think you should think twice about becoming a teacher.
31:08There is something to be said about that, yeah, integrity.
31:11Integrity, yeah.
31:12Teacher integrity is a big deal.
31:15What about how national exams can spur competition among schools and teachers?
31:23You can, actually this ranking of schools is debatable, because at one time we did rank
31:34schools when Pemandu was commissioned to do that.
31:38It had, I can't remember what levels there were, but it did spur the bottom schools to move up.
31:51Again, maybe this UASA which has been introduced will cater for that.
31:58But, so I think all is not lost with tahap pentakseran and a combination of tahap pentakseran and the UASA.
32:12But again, I repeat, I think UASA at standard 3-4, 4-1 from 2, can do without.
32:21Let children enjoy learning.
32:25This is what it's all about.
32:27Let them be independent learners.
32:29Let them want to learn on their own, without being told to learn.
32:33I think this is what we're looking for, really.
32:38Datin, let's move this conversation forward about how exams do or do not help shape attitudes and disciplines among students.
32:46So, do national exams help instil discipline among students?
32:53I think the assessments throughout the year is, actually instils discipline from the start.
33:02If you have just national exams at the end of the year, they'll probably be ill-disciplined.
33:07Until suddenly teacher says, okay, it's latih tubi time and we have to get the A's.
33:13And then they become disciplined for the last three months of the year.
33:16Whereas you have consistent assessments throughout the year.
33:20You are disciplined from the start.
33:22Without the added pressure at the end of the year.
33:25I think that's good.
33:27I think it's good that we have that consistency.
33:30Because at work, you never know, right?
33:33You've got to be consistent with your work.
33:35You cannot lay back and hope to get a bonus at the end of the year.
33:40You just have to perform throughout.
33:45I think that's a very good discipline.
33:51But with the abolition of UPSR and PT3, right?
33:55How has this affected children's attitudes towards their studies?
34:02I think, like, go back to what you just said, Datin.
34:06It's about consistency.
34:08And, you know, avoiding that cramming at the end.
34:12When it's just three months away, right?
34:15Yeah.
34:17Yeah.
34:19So, like, I think...
34:21She answered our question.
34:23To rephrase the question, I think, like, what, I mean,
34:27how has, you know, the abolition of UPSR and PT3
34:31changed the way students view their learning experience?
34:34I think one of the reasons they introduced PBS is also because
34:38they wanted good students to be mentors to weak students.
34:44You know?
34:45So instead of the A students being very proud of him or herself in class,
34:49you're good in your work.
34:51Why don't you share what you know with the weak students?
34:54So I think it's a fantastic idea because it actually inculcates leadership.
35:00You know?
35:01And this is what we need.
35:02We need leaders.
35:04And also, we...
35:08But whether or not this is happening in the classroom,
35:10it's up to the teacher to make it happen.
35:12Yeah.
35:13You know?
35:14And at one time, we were talking about teaching assistants.
35:18For a long time, we have been talking about teaching assistants.
35:21I think the National Union of Teaching Professionals
35:23also supported teacher assistants.
35:25We did, too.
35:26Some, I don't know, I think they tried and then they failed
35:31and then it probably became too expensive.
35:34But you don't need teachers to be teaching assistants.
35:37You can get the parent-teacher support group to come in and help
35:41assist teachers.
35:42But I think when you mention teaching assistants,
35:45could you explain what teaching assistants are?
35:47Are teaching assistants people who oversee certain students who are weak
35:54and sort of help them?
35:57Is that it?
35:58Yeah.
35:59Basically, especially of bigger classes.
36:00Say, for instance, if you have, say, 20 in a class,
36:03you probably don't need a teacher assistant.
36:05But you have up to 35, then you could.
36:08And I think the children also appreciate it.
36:11You have the good students who do well
36:15and the teacher may not have time for the weak students in the class.
36:20So that's when the teacher assistant comes in.
36:22Could be a parent, which makes it a lot cheaper.
36:25So the ministry doesn't need to create a budget for teaching assistants.
36:29And it may not be for every subject.
36:31It could be a specific subject, science maybe, math,
36:36especially math.
36:37You need a lot of practice, right?
36:39So if the ministry cannot do that,
36:44then make the good students be mentors to their friends.
36:49I think that was the idea.
36:50But whether it picked up or not, I don't know.
36:52But I think it's worth exploring.
36:54During my time, we had a program like this at my school.
36:58So the students who did well in four difficult subjects during my time,
37:03math, biology, chemistry, and physics,
37:05these were often renowned for them being very difficult.
37:09So we were sent to a camp.
37:12I mean, the students were sent to a camp, maybe two or three days.
37:15And then they came back and then they were required to teach their peers,
37:19their students, what they learned during the camp.
37:21So I think it's similar to what Datin has suggested.
37:25I think it's a good idea, actually,
37:27because students might be able to explain the subject matter
37:31in ways that their teachers could not.
37:32Like a buddy system?
37:33Yeah.
37:34So a student could be, say, tahap pentadrisalan lima.
37:38And then when he goes, when he decides, I want to mentor my friends,
37:42then that's his opportunity to move up to tahap pentadrisalan enam.
37:47Di contohi.
37:48Yeah.
37:49You know?
37:50So these are the ways that the system actually elevates the student
37:55within the classroom, which I think is fantastic.
37:58You tend to understand the subject better if you try to explain it.
38:02Yeah, that's true.
38:03Datin, we would like to talk a little bit about a review
38:06of the school-based assessment system.
38:10There are concerns that these types of assessments
38:13are adding to teachers' workload.
38:15Because, you know, like you said just now,
38:17we want to encourage continuous exchange between parents and teachers.
38:23But I came across a lot of posts on X
38:25where parents, you know, in the WhatsApp group with their teachers,
38:29Cikgu, esok anak saya kena bawa botol ke,
38:31tengok kan pencil box anak saya.
38:33You know, like all this kind of micromanaging, mundane concerns,
38:37and the teachers have to respond after hours.
38:39And now you add this school-based assessment.
38:42So do you think it's a little bit too much for our teachers to handle?
38:45Yeah, definitely.
38:46I think parents have to respect teachers' time.
38:48And I think, you know, you must be a cut-off, you know,
38:535pm or something, don't disturb the teacher.
38:55Yeah, because the teachers are parents to their own kids as well, right?
38:59Yeah, they have, you know, they want to lead their lives in peace as well.
39:03So I think if there is, then I think if there is,
39:07if the parents expect teachers to micromanage,
39:09maybe they should come up with a different system.
39:12Figure out a way.
39:14This is problem-solving.
39:16Figure out a way so that you don't need to bother the teacher after school hours.
39:21There must be a way.
39:22This is the easy way out.
39:24Just WhatsApp the teacher.
39:26I came across a post on X a few days ago.
39:30It was circulating.
39:32Apparently the parents asked the teacher, I mean the mum,
39:35asked the teacher to pay the cost,
39:39I mean to pay her for the cost of the pencil box or something.
39:43And the netizens were bashing her and said,
39:46how can you expect the teacher to monitor your child's pencil box?
39:51Yeah, that's a story that has lasted for long.
39:56Come back home and where are all your pencils?
40:00Someone could have chewed me.
40:01So there is a solution.
40:02Just have a pool of pencils, erasers, sharpeners, whatever, in the classroom.
40:06Everybody help themselves.
40:08Or you can even donate towards it, you know.
40:10It might seem like a...
40:12Trivial.
40:13Trivial thing.
40:14But these are the things that are going on in our school.
40:16Going up to a mountain.
40:19The second question I think is very interesting.
40:21And I can share something based on my experience as well.
40:25Do you think it's good to have the assessment of extracurricular participation
40:30bundled together with academic performance?
40:33Well, okay.
40:35When I went to school in Penang,
40:37sports, uniformed bodies,
40:41we were so proud to be in these associations, right?
40:44Because it developed us as people, as teenagers, right?
40:48And my school, for one,
40:51was known for hockey, athletics, and uniformed bodies, right?
40:57When I left school, which was in the mid-90s,
41:00all that I saw just dwindled.
41:04So much so, on the field, they built another annex.
41:09So it's more than a quarter of the field taken up.
41:12And from what I gathered from the parents of the students
41:19in that particular school,
41:21they said it's not important anymore.
41:25Everyone's in the classrooms, they're not exercising,
41:28they're not getting to know each other,
41:30they're not playing sports.
41:31So what do you think, Natin?
41:34I think that the interest in extracurricular activities now
41:41is having positions.
41:45I think it's about, you know,
41:47let's join this association society
41:51and then let's get into the committee.
41:54And after that, that's all we need to do.
41:57So there are no activities being held
42:02or the activities are just being held
42:05for those who are present.
42:07The rest go off for tuition during COCO.
42:11That's what's been happening.
42:13There's no pride.
42:17And of course, but, you know, on the other hand,
42:22if you're looking for post-SPM scholarships,
42:27post-STPM scholarships,
42:31these sponsors and foundations,
42:32they look for your extracurricular activities.
42:35They want all rounders, right?
42:36So, you know, so you think you can get away with it,
42:39but you can't.
42:41Even if you are, even in fact,
42:45if you go, if you look at the international schools,
42:47private schools,
42:48they emphasize on extracurricular activities.
42:52It's just the national schools who take it very lightly,
42:55which is unfortunate.
42:56Also because with the private schools,
42:59international schools,
43:00you have a different department
43:02just taking care of extracurricular activities.
43:04In national schools, the same teachers are doing it.
43:07So imagine how different it can be
43:11if you actually have, again,
43:13maybe teaching assistants to conduct
43:15the extracurricular activities.
43:17Then maybe the students will take it
43:19a little bit more seriously
43:20because the teachers are watching them.
43:22I think the teachers who are teaching in the morning
43:24and then they have to stay back on Wednesday to do work,
43:26they are very tired, actually.
43:28So if you want to, if you want,
43:30again, I think it's school leadership
43:33and I think that if the school itself
43:37emphasizes on extracurricular activities,
43:40then children have to go with the flow.
43:43I'll be very honest.
43:44When I was in school,
43:45I skipped all of my extracurricular classes.
43:47There you go.
43:48But suddenly when I went to the university,
43:50suddenly I had this urge.
43:52I wanted to take part in as many activities as I did
43:55and I kind of, I did take part in a lot of things,
43:57but when I was in school,
43:58because it wasn't assessed, I didn't care.
44:01Why wasn't it?
44:03Because it wasn't assessed.
44:05It wasn't assessed.
44:06So it wasn't you not finding something
44:09that you were interested in?
44:13I couldn't find anything that I was.
44:14I mean, I was interested in debating,
44:16but because I went, I moved,
44:19I went to a boarding school,
44:20so they already had an established team
44:22from Form 1, so I was a bit late.
44:25In university, only then I started becoming active
44:28in debating and whatnot.
44:30So it was only then I thought
44:32I wanted to get involved in extracurricular activities.
44:35But in school, because it wasn't assessed,
44:37I didn't care.
44:39But I think it's kind of like
44:41there's a paradox in there somewhere.
44:43When there was no assessment, I didn't care.
44:47But now, like Datin said,
44:48when there is an assessment,
44:49perhaps students will care a bit more.
44:51So it kind of brings us back to the point,
44:53if you're not assessed, if you don't have exams,
44:56would you care less?
44:58Where's the baseline, right?
45:00So moving forward, Datin,
45:02with all things considered,
45:04what is your take on this?
45:05What solution would you suggest?
45:09Well, as you know,
45:10we are not in favour of going back to UPSR MPT3.
45:14I think we should continue where we are going.
45:19And I think there's a lot of research
45:23and feedback and discussions
45:28when the Ministry decided to do away with MPT3 UPSR.
45:34A lot of work, like everything else,
45:36like everything else with all their policies.
45:40So I think if you want to do a U-turn on it,
45:44I think it's not as simple as that.
45:48It's very disruptive, isn't it?
45:49It is, and I think you have to go back to why,
45:53the reasons why we did this,
45:56and why do we need to go back
45:59to what we were actually running away from.
46:03And I think, again, I think,
46:08carry on with the formative assessments, PBS,
46:11have the UASA at the end of the year,
46:14but not every year.
46:16Just the important years.
46:18So when you say not every year,
46:20will that be dependent?
46:22Not standard four, standard five.
46:25I mean, the classes, the years,
46:29will still have their formative, their PBS.
46:32At the discretion of the schools,
46:33how they want to implement it.
46:34But the UASA, just standard six and form three.
46:38Okay.
46:40I think the children need breathing space.
46:43I think the teachers need time to explain concepts.
46:46And just teaching the test is not a good thing.
46:50Would you say the non-UPSR and PT3 arrangement
46:57lacks structure?
47:00No, I think the structure is okay.
47:04It's just that there's too much emphasis
47:07on chasing, just chasing A's.
47:12There's too much emphasis on chasing A's, you know.
47:15And I think that a minority of students
47:21are straight A students.
47:23But the system has to cater to everybody.
47:26And I think students who are not academic inclined
47:29but are actually good in skills,
47:32these should be nurtured.
47:34They shouldn't be labelled and say you're no good.
47:37Because they have other ways to excel.
47:42But unfortunately in the national exam system,
47:45they are neglected.
47:48I personally stand on the other side of the equation.
47:51Because I'm in favour of restoring it.
47:53But I will say that I'm not blind to the shortcomings.
47:57And I'm all for reforms.
47:59I mean, yes, exams put a lot of pressure on students.
48:02So I would probably suggest things like,
48:05for example, I still keep my SPM result, the SLEEP.
48:09But the SLEEP doesn't state what extracurricular activities
48:13I took part in.
48:14So maybe that's something we can explore, you know.
48:17I think it does know.
48:19Because in my time it wasn't.
48:22Like I said, I didn't care.
48:24And maybe having things like open book exams.
48:27And open book exams I think is good
48:29because as a student you don't have to memorise the things.
48:31But you do need to study.
48:33You need to know where the material is found in the book.
48:35So that gives you, takes the pressure off.
48:39But it still gives, I mean the exams still provide you
48:41with that push to study hard.
48:44And I think that strikes a balance between, you know,
48:48the pressure and also giving you motivation to study.
48:52I would agree to that.
48:54Because I was a pandemic student when I did my Masters.
48:58So the open book arrangement was so helpful.
49:03I think the open book way of assessment
49:08is actually being done already in schools.
49:10And I think it is for history, if I'm not mistaken.
49:12Yeah, yeah. History is a lot to remember.
49:15But it's important, yeah.
49:19One thing, Datin, what challenges do you think we will face
49:24if we are to implement these suggestions, your suggestions,
49:26Aida's suggestions, my suggestions,
49:27what are the challenges we might come across
49:29if we were to implement these things?
49:32Again, I think not disrupt.
49:34Because I think we have got a good thing going.
49:39I think it's a matter of getting the teachers
49:42to understand what needs to be done.
49:46And they have to do it in the,
49:51they have to do it in a simple manner.
49:53Don't make it so complicated.
49:56I think the ministry is very good actually
50:00about having all this, so many outcomes,
50:07so many things that you have to achieve.
50:10You have to achieve 66 KPIs, 100 don't know what.
50:17It's a bit crazy for teachers to be doing that.
50:21So let's make it simple.
50:23As long as you meet your outcome at the end of the day,
50:28I think that's what matters.
50:32I know, I think I'd go crazy as well if I was a teacher.
50:37The instructions are so long and so complicated.
50:41And probably that's why we saw an exodus of teachers,
50:44about 10,000 teachers retired unexpectedly.
50:50Speaking of long instructions,
50:52just a minor story I want to share
50:53before we reach the end of the podcast.
50:56One of his parents I spoke to said
50:59her daughter recently moved to Form 1.
51:05So she was given this question
51:08or some kind of homework to complete.
51:11And you know like sejarah,
51:13they have question 1, question 2, question 3.
51:16And then the exam paper will be like
51:18pilih dua soalan, choose two questions out of three.
51:21So question 1 was divided into 1A, 1B, 1C.
51:25So she only answered 1A and 2A.
51:29And then of course she got very low marks.
51:32The teacher said you didn't answer 1B and 1C.
51:35And then she told her daughter,
51:37look, you have to complete 1B and 1C.
51:40And then she said, no mum, the question said
51:42I have to choose two questions.
51:44So I chose two questions.
51:46She didn't realise the sub-questions.
51:48So the mother said she is so unused to exams
51:51that when she finally comes across an exam,
51:54she doesn't know how to answer it.
51:56So she said, my concern Farid, she said,
51:58what happens if this happens during SPM?
52:01Because they have never answered exams before,
52:04so this becomes a problem.
52:06Yeah, that's an interesting situation.
52:08I think SPM has a format, right?
52:11So why is it that during the formative exams
52:14they can't adopt the same format?
52:16It's as simple as that.
52:20Why make life difficult for the student
52:23if you can already put in all these things
52:25throughout the year, so they are ready.
52:28You don't have to give it a name.
52:30Just put it in.
52:32In fact, this debate about UPS RPT3
52:35actually took place in Singapore as well.
52:39So Singapore decided that it will stick
52:44to the School Living Certificate in Standard 6.
52:49But what they did was a compromise.
52:51They reduced the number of assessments
52:54all the way down.
52:56So I think they also saw that,
52:59okay, you need to be assessed,
53:01but don't over-assess.
53:03Let the kids have fun, especially at primary level.
53:05That is true.
53:07My mum always likes to say,
53:09learning actually takes place during playtime.
53:11There you go.
53:13Because I used to teach at a tuition centre.
53:15There were kids age 3, age 4 learning maths
53:18and I thought, whoa!
53:20It's too much.
53:22Even Finland, we always go to Finland
53:24to see what they're doing.
53:26Finland, they don't even have subjects.
53:28They just learn everything altogether.
53:31So, I mean,
53:33if we were to adopt that system in Finland,
53:37I think parents will have a national protest.
53:41There's one parent who gave their feedback.
53:46Oh, good that UPS RPT3 will abolish
53:49no jobs for tuition centres.
53:51Some teachers teaching or operating tuition centres
53:54neglected their primary duties to their school.
53:57There you go.
53:59Now, post-COVID, a lot of teachers
54:01are giving online tuition,
54:03which is actually very easy
54:08for the teacher who can do it from home,
54:10from the student who can do it from home.
54:12So, it's a good compromise, actually.
54:15But unfortunately, it still goes on.
54:18Actually, as far as tuition is concerned,
54:22by law, teachers can give tuition,
54:25but only up to four hours a week.
54:27So, a lot of them do more than that
54:30because it's very lucrative.
54:32Yeah, it is.
54:33Any final thoughts, Farid?
54:37I'm all for reinstatement,
54:38so we stand on the opposite side of the equation.
54:41But yeah, we do need to look at
54:43the concerns that were raised.
54:45We can't go back to the way things were.
54:48Reinstatement maybe can work,
54:51but we need to find some ways to reform some things
54:54and look at some of the concerns
54:55that parents have raised about the exam,
54:57national exams.
54:58Yeah, Datin?
54:59Okay, I think that if we want to go back
55:03to EPS and PT3,
55:06forget about TIMSS and PISA then
55:09because we'll never do well
55:11if we're going to do it the way we've been doing it.
55:14So, it's either-or?
55:15Yeah, I think we have to strengthen PBS
55:20and still go for the TIMSS and PISA
55:22because we need the independent study
55:24to tell us what else we need to do
55:28and if we don't do, how will we go wrong?
55:32Thank you, Datin.
55:33Pleasure.
55:34This has been-
55:35This is not an easy topic to dissect.
55:37Yes, it is.
55:38Like you said, complicated.
55:39But we appreciate your feedback today.
55:41Thank you very much.
55:42Once again, it's been a pleasure.
55:44Thanks for listening, everyone.
55:46The Life in the City podcast
55:47can be viewed on our YouTube channel
55:49and Starr Online
55:50or www.starr.com.my
55:53slash Metro