On the latest episode of the Poolie Podcast, Rich Mennear and Robbie Stelling discuss Darren Sarll's sacking as Hartlepool United manager and what the club's next steps could entail to find his replacement.
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00:00You
00:30Hello and welcome to this week's Pooley podcast although it's the second one we've done Robbie
00:39and in a week or so given the I was going to say shock news but I don't think there'll be a shock
00:44to any Hartlepool United fans after Darren Siles sacking on Wednesday morning following the Tuesday
00:50night FA Cup exit to Brackley. We'll get straight into that Robbie in just a minute or so and then
00:57obviously we'll discuss what Hartlepool have done to replace him with Lenny Lawrence and caretaker
01:02charge along with the other coaching staff and then we'll have a little look at some of the
01:06names in the frame and who do you think might stand a good chance of getting the job at the
01:10Vic and I think it's still a pretty good one with the squad that they've got there's still plenty of
01:14time to turn the season around so you're at the game Tuesday Robbie what was your what was your
01:19thoughts at the final whistle on sat on Tuesday did you think that's it that's probably him gone
01:23and how was he after the game yeah I think it was inevitable to be honest rich I think
01:29Sal's been under big pressure for the last three or four weeks at least for a number of reasons
01:35not least the fact that he's obviously really butted head with butted heads with the fan base
01:41he had the comment a couple of weeks ago where he said he'd never receive such levels of personal
01:46abuse that's something we discussed on the last podcast obviously supporters didn't take kindly
01:51to that a couple of other snide remarks I think in in post-match interviews that he made when
01:57describing the fans and it really felt like almost the entire fan base were at loggerheads
02:05with Darren Song and obviously when you lose the fans particularly at a club like
02:08Hartlepool when when the fans are on side they can be such a massive asset we've seen just how
02:14the fans are I know it's such a cliche but the fans really can be the 12th man
02:19but when it starts to go wrong it can be an incredibly difficult place to play
02:23football and it felt like that for a few weeks it sort of felt like Sal was hanging on by the
02:30skin of his teeth because of course not only was he struggling to form any kind of relationship
02:34with the fans on the pitch the football was not good at all the performances were
02:41really unimpressive the style of play was turgid at best and of course football is a results
02:48business and Hartlepool weren't getting results four wins in 15 games from Sal's tumultuous
02:55tenure we've spoken in the past how they actually had a pretty kind beginning to the season they
03:00played all four newly promoted sides they played three sides that survived on the last day last
03:06season of course they played National League North opposition in Brackley drew with them on on
03:12Saturday and were a bit fortunate to to rescue a replay in truth particularly because of the first
03:18half performance when they were completely outclassed and Tuesday night was a sort of a
03:24similar sort of occasion Pools started well enough actually but but failed to make the most of
03:31their chances goal scoring has obviously been a big problem this season they were at least
03:35creating chances that there have been games we've seen this season where where Pools haven't looked
03:41anything like scoring a goal but it felt inevitable Rich I think Sal knew that the game was up we
03:50spoke to him before the game and he he said something to the effect that he knew he was sort
03:57of operating on a a game by game basis there was in effect a gun to his head and after the match
04:04I know we'll get into his comments in a little bit more detail he he basically said goodbye to us
04:11you know we shared a laugh and a joke we we had a hug I I've made no secret of the fact that I've
04:16always gotten on well with Sal as a man even even if I don't necessarily understand or appreciate
04:21some of his comments particularly about fans but I think that he knew that the game was up and
04:27Pools took a bit of a risk didn't they getting rid of of Kevin Phillips who'd done a a pretty
04:32good job under difficult circumstances inheriting a squad of players that that wasn't his and and
04:39going for Darren So I mean that looked at the time like a bit of an odd decision and I think
04:45now it looks like a calamitous mistake to be honest Rich because it just hasn't worked out
04:50I wonder if um if he was sacked on the night and they allowed him to stay over there because he
04:54lives near Brackley doesn't he or whether he he came back with the team and back to his um temporary
04:58base in Durham but um I mean we wish him well you know I mean not nice to see anybody sacked but
05:02clearly it wasn't working at Pools um and I don't think there'll be too many fans who are sad to see
05:07him go still a really good squad though um we're only however many games in the season still quite
05:12a long way to go um Lenny Lawrence has taken charge which again won't be a surprise to anyone
05:18given that he's been on the bench certainly the home games the last few weekends um how long do
05:22you kind of anticipate Lenny to be in charge and with the kind of some of the early names in the
05:26frame for taking the role permanently yeah I mean Lenny's obviously done this role before he did it
05:32last season and obviously his managerial track record speaks for itself one of a select few
05:39managers to have taken charge of more than a thousand games one of the original 20 Premier
05:45League managers incredible experience but of course he might not thank me for saying this he
05:50is just two months shy of his 77th birthday I'm not sure it's a role he will relish to be honest
05:57Rich he was a little bit reluctant to come down to the dugout this season if we are to believe
06:02what Sal was saying certainly because he'd missed a couple of games earlier on in the campaign he
06:07didn't feel like he had quite got to grips with the current squad and he didn't want to um give
06:13out his advice when he didn't feel like he was fully qualified to to to give it out but I think
06:21things will need to make a decision as quickly as possible to be honest Rich I mean the last time
06:26Lenny took charge it took a long time didn't it I think John Askey was sacked on on Boxing Day
06:32Kevin Phillips was appointed almost exactly a month later I think Lenny oversaw three or four games
06:38in that time the ideal would be that he only has to oversee one or or two of course pools play on
06:45Saturday they then play again on Wednesday and then they've got a home game on Saturday so it
06:50might be difficult but pools will need to act fast I think if they're to if they're to get their
06:55man because like you say there is still time to to turn this season around and whoever does come in
07:02well they might inherit a difficult job I think there'll be prospective managers looking at
07:06Hartlepool and fearing that it is perhaps a bit of a poison chalice given how many managers have
07:10come and gone in recent years but they do inherit a good squad that they inherit a passionate
07:17dedicated and sizable fan base particularly for this level but with that of course comes
07:24its own pressure in terms of the names that are being mentioned at this stage I think Pete Wild
07:29would be many people's favorite but I don't think that's realistic he's been linked with a pool's
07:35job in the past I don't think he's particularly keen to relocate and I don't think he's especially
07:41keen either to drop back down to the National League obviously did a fantastic job with Barrow
07:46took over with them having finished 22nd in the National League the season before
07:51led them to a ninth place finish before winning the National League title and turned Barrow into
07:56a into a side challenging for promotion from league two so I think he'll he'll feel that his
08:02stock is a little bit higher than Hartlepool United I've got five names in front of me here
08:08Paul Simpson I think would be a a good shout obviously plenty of experience done a really
08:14good job at Cargill okay it didn't end particularly well that they were relegated from
08:20league one and he was sacked but it's worth bearing in mind that he took over with Cargill
08:25staring down the barrel of relegation to the National League kept them up and then won
08:29promotion so he he he he's obviously a a manager that has something to offer and would give you
08:37that experience Tommy Widdrington obviously a former pools player has done a good job at
08:43Aldershot struggling a little bit more this season but does have a reputation for playing
08:48fast free-flowing attacking football and given his connections to Hartlepool United one promotion with
08:53pools as a player might be a popular choice in that sense the thing with pools Rich is you never
09:00quite know what kind of manager that they're looking for are they going to look for an English
09:04manager a Scottish manager someone with lots of experience no experience because the the appointments
09:11in recent years have been pretty slapdash so they might go for someone like Jonathan Greening who
09:16doesn't have a host of experience but had an impressive playing career done a good job at
09:21at Scarborough Graham Murty is I know someone that we've discussed again not a whole host of
09:26managerial experience but I think a lot to like about him and what he's done as a player and a
09:34coach and Phil Parkinson at Altrincham who's done a fantastic fantastic job there but has been at
09:39Altrincham since 2017 must feel as though his job is pretty secure given the success that he's
09:44achieved there so it might take a lot to prize him away from Altrincham especially given
09:49pool's recent reputation for spitting up managers and chewing them out so there are plenty of
09:54attractive candidates the question really is Rich where the pools can attract the right man
09:58yeah I wonder if um I know Jack Ross has just got a new role at Newcastle United within the kind of
10:03youth set up structure and things but he's certainly been a name that has been mentioned before at
10:08pools and I think they've spoken to him several times in the past but whether he wants to dip
10:12his toe back into management or not we shall see um former pools player as well of course after
10:17his spell at Sunlanders manager um I think a fair question as well is who's actually making the
10:21decisions at pools in terms of the appointment of the new manager that was referenced in the
10:25host statement yesterday that they released um which was short and sweet but pretty strong um
10:32you know some clarity from the top I think would probably be useful in terms of who's actually
10:35leading that selection process is at the board or is it the owner himself um in terms of Lennie
10:42um how do you think he'll approach Saturday's game do you think he'll make many changes he
10:46seems to have had an influence on things anyway the last few weeks yeah I mean I don't think
10:53there'll be wholesale sale changes Rich in truth I don't think there's really a need for for
10:59wholesale changes I mean you look at the we've already touched on it you look at the squad of
11:03players it looks to be a good squad I think it's a stronger squad of players than pools had
11:09certainly at this stage last season I think really the biggest change needs to be perhaps in
11:17in in mindset and style of play I'm not sure that Lennie Lawrence is going to set his side out to
11:23play tiki-taka Barcelona football but I think there needs to be a balance pools have been
11:30so direct so route one under Darren Simon that simply hasn't gotten the best out of
11:36a number of their creative players because they have a lot of talented footballers
11:41within this squad and trying to get the ball from back to front bypassing the midfield bypassing the
11:47wide areas just simply isn't designed to get the best out of some of that attacking talent
11:53in particular that the pools have at their disposal I don't think he's going to make
11:57massive changes Luke Waterfall the captain was obviously left on the bench in midweek I think
12:03Billy Sastavy's actually on form deserves to be in the side ahead of Luke Waterfall although he
12:08had a bit of a difficult night in midweek Lennie Lawrence was sitting just a couple of rows in
12:13front of us he was watching on so he'll have an opinion on that I think he might put Waterfall
12:18back in just because of his character his leadership his vast experience he obviously
12:24has had a lot of success not just at this level but particularly at this level so I think we
12:29might see Waterfall come back into the heart of defense I think we'll see him rely on players like
12:35Nicky Featherstone who Darren Soule maybe thought put more in and out obviously Featherstone has a
12:41role on the coaching staff as well so it's going to be interesting to see how that dynamic works
12:46one player that I expect to come back into the side is Adam Campbell he did a very explosive
12:50interview on Saturday after he'd scored his first goal for Pools we spoke when he arrived about
12:58what huge potential he had to be a sort of statement marquee signing for Pools having
13:03won promotion to League One with Crawley last season and he was a pretty regular member of
13:09their team I think he played 42 league games scored seven goals started in the player final
13:14at Wembley but Soule just hasn't been able to get a tune out of him part of that is because of
13:20the way that they've played Adam Campbell's a player who likes to have the ball to feet he
13:25likes to have runners beyond him and he hasn't had either of those during Darren Soule's tenure but
13:30he scored his first Pools goal on Saturday and then made a real point of saying look I'm so
13:35frustrated with a lack of opportunities this has been the most frustrating time in my career and
13:40then he was left on the bench again on Tuesday I understand to an extent why he made that decision
13:45because Anthony Mancini had had a really good game on Saturday and Pools fans of course always
13:50want to see Mancini in the side Mancini went down injured he's obviously had such a checkered
13:55history with with injuries especially since arriving at Pools we don't have an update on him
14:01as yet but I would suggest that we'll see Campbell instead of Mancini but not huge changes in terms
14:07of personnel but I think the message the mentality and the style of play is what needs to change
14:12I wonder if the warm-up will be any better on Saturday because Campbell was critical of that
14:15wasn't he I think he was to be in fairness he was being more critical of the players in terms of
14:18you know we weren't quite a bang at it rather than anything from the coaching side but yeah
14:22interesting to see what the team selection is on Saturday and just circle back slightly to
14:26Sal and some of the comments he made post-match really in particular about you know I mean
14:33Parc United for the second consecutive season had just been knocked out there for the Cup of the Lost
14:38point and he did apologize in the end but it probably would have been better if he'd started
14:43with an apology I mean what what did you make of his comments post-match and maybe he knew then
14:47that the right was on the wall but you want to take this fully by by Hartlepool fans
14:53no I mean I think he did know the writing was on the wall that's that that's the first thing I would
14:59say but I mean the divide between manager and fans I mean there have been some divisive managers
15:05through the door at Victoria Park in in recent years you know I'm thinking Paul Hartley I'm
15:10thinking Keith Curl, Richard Money, Dave Jones but in many ways I think that the ill feeling between
15:18the fan base and Darren Sal was probably stronger during this tenure than it has been at any previous
15:25point with any of those particularly contentious managers I don't think Sal necessarily helped
15:32himself with some of the things that he said not just on on Tuesday night when perhaps he knew that
15:37he was going to get an unpleasant phone call on on Wednesday morning but throughout his
15:41his time at pools at any football club it's so important to get the fans
15:46on side and he had a tendency to alienate them didn't he I mean he came with a reputation for
15:51being a a straight talker he said he wouldn't pull any punches and he did deliver on that promise but
15:58it came at the cost of his relationship with fans obviously one of the big talking points on Tuesday
16:03night was the fact that he said he thinks Hartlepool United fans have had worse times than this and
16:10look Rich I'm 26 now I think pools have had three top half finishes in the last 17 years one of those
16:15was last season when they finished 12th so not exactly something to shout about so there haven't
16:20been many good memories but of course that promotion season in 2021 and the FA Cup run which
16:26followed the following campaign when pools reached the fourth round and played Premier League Crystal
16:31Palace means that there are memories of good times and what pools can achieve in the not too distant
16:38past and and of course when you exit the FA Cup especially to a team from the division below as
16:44good as Brackley were actually huge credit to them they were really impressive it kind of feels like
16:50a damning indictment of of the regime the first time they were dumped out at the fourth qualifying
16:54round stage of course was last season when John Askey's Hartlepool United lost to National League
16:59North Chester and at the time that performance and result was seen as the beginning of the end
17:04for the pool so I don't think Sal really was right to say what he said he did apologize he
17:13obviously appreciates that that fans pay the hard-earned money they travel far and wide and as
17:19I say I always got on with him on a personal basis he always answered my questions thoroughly and
17:25thoughtfully we exchanged a couple of messages yesterday after the news broke that pools had
17:30parted company with him and as you said when we started this conversation never nice to see anyone
17:36lose their job but but I think some of the things that he said about the fans were ill-informed
17:43ill-thought-out ill-advised because Hartlepool United you know I speak with a southern accent
17:48I've lived most of my life in the south one of the things that really has always drawn me to
17:53Hartlepool is the fan base the people welcome me in as an outsider initially with open arms and I've
18:01always really found that their passion their commitment come rain or shine it is one of the
18:07things that makes Hartlepool United so uniquely special and I don't think Sal was ever quite able
18:12to grasp that just just finally before we wrap things up it's obviously not a good reflection
18:17on on the state of the club itself to be frank everything comes from the top down and the fact
18:23that Hartlepool have had so many managers I think it's your third manager in eight months
18:26yeah and the fact that Hartlepool United have had so many managers over recent seasons
18:30doesn't reflect well on on the club from many many different reasons and I guess you know
18:38pools will be in danger of getting a bit of reputation themselves within the game as well
18:42in terms of then attracting managers moving forward although as we know you know everyone
18:46will always think they can do a much better job than the other guys so I'm sure they'll be inundated
18:50with applicants for this role as well but yeah just just a final sort of short word Robbie really
18:53on you know how it kind of reflects on where pools are at currently and how big of an appointment
18:58the next one is yeah I mean it seems like every appointment's a big appointment doesn't it Rich
19:04but it's a damning indictment of the state of affairs at pools because Darren Tsang as
19:12as disappointing as his tenure was was not the only problem at Hartlepool United there clearly are
19:18other problems you look at how the club have recruited the playing staff in in recent years
19:26a lot of the signings have been unsuccessful there's been no real rhyme or reason to their
19:31recruitment you know one year they're recruiting a certain type of player the next year they're
19:36recruiting someone completely different you look at the managerial appointments as you rightly said
19:41I'm looking forward to meeting my third manager in just eight months at the Hartlepool male but
19:47you look at the last 10 or 11 managerial appointments obviously Dave Chaloner was a
19:52success Kevin Phillips to a lesser extent was a success and that situation was badly mishandled
19:58wasn't it whether you thought pools were right or wrong not to stick with Phillips the way that they
20:03went about it was absolutely wrong and and you're right to say that they do risk giving themselves
20:10a bit of a bad reputation in the game because there's a lot to like about this Hartlepool
20:14United job Dave Chaloner has shown that if you can harness the fan base this club has has real
20:22potential you know when Chaloner left pools were in the top half in league two it is possible
20:27to achieve success especially with a pretty decent playing squad that this manager stands
20:34to inherit but there just feels like such a disconnect Rich to be honest I understand that
20:40fans are never going to be privy to everything that goes on in the corridors of power but I
20:45think it would be really nice if there was a little bit more communication as you said it's
20:51people are not sure whether the chairman is the one that is is making all the decisions
20:57what sort of role the board have you know they seem to be very much in the background but no
21:03one's quite aware of what their influence is look you're never going to get everything right running
21:09a football club it's almost impossible to predict it at times and you're never going to get every
21:13managerial appointment right but you look at the recent track record and there's been a lot more
21:19bad than good but of course you've got to give managers the best chance of success and you're
21:26going to do that by making things in the background as smooth as organized as well structured as
21:34possible and you have to question at the moment where the pools are doing that or not good stuff
21:40thank you very much Robbie for your time um just before we wrap up let's get some feedback this
21:43week Robbie um a good friend of mine David Haradine known as Harry to his friends um he was um
21:49avid listen to the podcast every week saying he's a big big fan um but he was getting annoyed he was
21:54getting annoyed with my typing in the background so I was trying to explain I'm a busy man so um
21:59but yeah so hopefully you've enjoyed this episode Harry this one will dedicate to you
22:03um yeah thanks for your time Robbie thanks for the insight from Pools um hopefully three points
22:08at the weekend and we look forward to catching up the next week or so for a another update on
22:12the manager search in the meantime head to the website for all the latest from the Vic thanks