Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening and welcome you're watching the big story on NDTV Prophet and I'm Nupur Talwar
00:27Over the past 4 days bomb hoax threats have kept airlines, flyers as well as security agencies on tenterhooks
00:36Just sample the numbers that we are looking at
00:39There have been 18 bomb hoaxes in just 4 days
00:436 airlines have been targeted
00:46They were operating flights on 9 international and 9 domestic routes
00:52Apart from that what we also understand is that the sheer number of threats that have come in have not only been unprecedented
01:00But they have also put security agencies as well as airports into a tizzy
01:07Today on the big story we look at what's happening in this space
01:11And we also look at how the government is dealing with these threats
01:15There is talk of a new law that will be coming into place which will put in stringent measures
01:20But first up we go across to our reporters on the show
01:23Pallav as well as Aditya joining us this evening
01:27And Aditya of course has been tracking this story over the past 4 days
01:31Hi Aditya
01:32To begin with Aditya give us a sense of what we've seen in these past 4 days
01:37Now today of course we've also heard that there have been action taken against social media handles
01:42The government is looking at perhaps putting in place measures
01:46Various agencies have been in a huddle
01:49So tell us the whole picture
01:51Yes, yes Nupur
01:53So basically before I start let me tell you
01:56Just now an information is coming in that 5 of Air India flights have also received bomb threats very recently today
02:03And because of this the flight operations have been disrupted once again
02:08So now the total number has increased to over 20 flights in last 4 days
02:13And this is something unprecedented
02:15This has never happened before
02:17And let me tell the viewers that what we have been tracking for last 4 days
02:21Is that basically some social media handles
02:26Which are handles on X are basically tweeting out the flight numbers with threats
02:32And after this the flights are being taken to the nearest airports and in the isolation base
02:37And flights are being checked thoroughly but nothing is being found
02:40So these threats are essentially hoax threats because of which the flights are being diverted
02:45And I repeat the number has crossed to 20 flights in last 4 days
02:51And this is across airlines
02:53This is not just limited to one airline
02:55Yesterday in Mumbai, Mumbai police had conducted a press conference
02:59In which they revealed that one of these tweets was made by a minor from Rajanandgaon in Chhattisgarh
03:05A small team of Mumbai police had gone to Rajanandgaon
03:09And taken this minor in their custody
03:12And they are questioning the minor right now
03:15And also one more important point in this is that one major is also involved in this
03:20Because the minor had made these posts from the major's handle
03:24Now the entire investigation is underway
03:26Government has swung in action
03:28Home ministry is involved
03:30Aviation ministry is looking after the matter
03:33Tomorrow civil aviation ministry is poised to make a statement
03:36So everything is right at the front
03:39All the departments are in complete action right now
03:43And we will have to see how this story unfolds
03:46But as it is right now the threats are not stopping
03:49Alright Aditya do stay with us
03:51We are going to come back to you later in the show
03:53Let's also get in Pallav now
03:55Pallav the government and various ministries of course have been in a huddle
03:59And have now suggested a new law to deal with hoax callers
04:03Tell us a bit more about this law that is likely to come into place
04:08For the past few days in different parts of the country
04:13There have been threats of bombing airports and planes
04:17Due to this the civil aviation ministry has now become strict
04:21According to the sources related to the ministry
04:24The ministry is now preparing a new law against hoax callers
04:30In this law there is a provision for strict punishment for hoax callers
04:38Not only that, according to the sources
04:41Those who make hoax calls will be given a strict punishment
04:47Apart from that they will be identified and put in a no flight list
04:51Which can be implemented for many years
04:55According to the sources related to the ministry
04:57The new law will also provide strict supervision and supervision
05:01To prevent incidents that jeopardize travel and national security
05:10The ministry is currently working with the law department on this law
05:16Let me tell you that before looking at these incidents
05:19The Kerala government had announced to double the number of sky marshals
05:50Thirdly, how hard has the aviation industry been hit by these bomb threats
05:56Which have gone up to 18 in the past 4 days
06:00To discuss all this and more
06:02We are now joined by Captain Amit Singh
06:04He is the founder of Safety Matters Foundation
06:06We are also joined by Mr. Brijesh Singh
06:08He is the principal secretary to the Chief Minister of Maharashtra
06:11An IPS officer by CADA
06:14We also have Jitendra Bhargav
06:16He is the former ED of Air India
06:18And the author of The Descent of Air India
06:20Joining us as well is Group Captain M.G. Agustin Vinod
06:26All four of you gentlemen, good evening
06:28Thank you very much for joining us
06:30Mr. Singh, that is Mr. Brijesh Singh to you first
06:34It does appear that there may have been a larger conspiracy behind this
06:38Because the sheer number that we are seeing
06:41And it's growing by the hour if I were to use that term
06:45It may seem that there is more to it than meets the eye
06:49What's your assessment?
06:51It's too early to say that
06:53Sometimes these things are motivated by copycat behavior
06:57Now as far as the larger conspiracy angle is concerned
07:01You need to basically see behind the motivations of the threat actor
07:05Whether it's a geopolitical actor, whether it's a non-state actor
07:07Whether it's a criminal element
07:09You will have to see once investigation starts
07:13And our agencies are good at that
07:16If there is something which is connecting everything
07:19It would come out
07:21I would also like to say that
07:23There is a lot of technology today which is used in analysis
07:26So there may be elements from online forum
07:31There would be calls and there would be various kinds of telemetry data
07:36Once you analyze all that
07:38I think a pattern would come up
07:40And if at all there is a larger conspiracy, it will come through
07:43However, what I feel that we should not take them just as hoax calls
07:47Because every hoax can be real
07:50And once a call is made, no airline can take it as hoax
07:53No airline can presume that it is hoax
07:56A proper protocol kicks in place
07:58And you have to take all measures
08:00And one last point, Nupur, I'd like to make
08:02Before other speakers talk
08:04Is that there is an act called Anti-Hijacking Act of 2016
08:08Which has made stringent provisions
08:10Which go up to life imprisonment
08:12And one has to be very careful
08:14So anybody who is getting into this copycat behavior
08:17They should understand that there are very stringent punishments
08:20After the 2016 Anti-Hijacking Act
08:23Nupur?
08:24Mr. Singh, before I go on to the other speakers
08:27Just give us a sense of what an unprecedented situation like this
08:31Involves for security agencies on the ground
08:34Because there's not just these hoax calls
08:38But there's also the entire protocol that's involved after that
08:42See, this is what terrorism does to you
08:45It takes a toll on your resources
08:48It keeps you on continuous alert
08:50And it basically tires you down
08:52It is basically an attack on the public order
08:57And I believe that once a call is made
09:00It has to be treated with great seriousness
09:03So you will have to isolate
09:05You will have to do all kinds of checks
09:08Right from baggage to people to the flight manifest
09:11To all technical, maybe explosive checks
09:15Everything has to be checked
09:16And this is expensive, time-consuming
09:19And I think that is the purpose of the attacker
09:22Is that they want to put you through these situations
09:25Wherein it can sometimes be also for testing
09:28And they may be even testing by making hoax calls
09:31And then they may come up with a real attack
09:34So I believe that whatever is happening
09:37The agencies will get to the bottom of it
09:41And the perpetrators will be brought to the book
09:44Right, absolutely
09:45Mr. Bhargava, to you next
09:47Now, Mr. Bhargava, for airlines, situations like this
09:50Can actually lead to a hefty financial bill
09:53There are diversions involved
09:55There are disruptions involved
09:57And all of this is just costly
09:59So give us a sense of what this could mean
10:02For airlines financially
10:05Well, financially, one doesn't have to look at
10:08When it concerns safety
10:10I've always maintained that safety is paramount
10:13An airline will divert flight and land at the nearest airport
10:17Once a call is received
10:20That there is something untoward that can likely happen
10:23Now, when you have it in this way
10:25And a plane lands at this thing
10:27It's a question of subjecting the aircraft, the passengers, the baggages
10:31That whether the call has any meaning or not
10:34And if it's a hoax call, you proceed further
10:36Which means inconvenience to passengers
10:39And if it's a long time on the ground
10:43Then perhaps taking care of the meals
10:45And taking care of accommodation
10:47All that thing is feasible
10:48The third part is that it disrupts flights
10:51Not just this flight
10:53The further flight that aircraft is supposed to operate
10:56So there's a very different kind of a thing
10:59At times, the duty time limitation of pilots can come in
11:02The plane can be made to be grounded for the next 24 hours
11:05Because you can't really position a set of new crew
11:08To operate the flight
11:09Safety being paramount
11:11But as the government of India has in the past 24 hours
11:15Fortunately, taken the matter seriously
11:18And we were expecting that perhaps today
11:20There will be no instance of a hoax call
11:22But it is
11:23People, when you talk in terms of a conspiracy
11:26Let's look at something
11:27We have been in the first three flights
11:30Relating to a boy from Rajnandgaon
11:33He has been in police custody
11:35He would have been subjected, grilled by now
11:38To understand whether he did it as a prank
11:41Or was it there was any seriousness attached
11:44So when we look at these elements and they say
11:46How is it that the first call by this juvenile person
11:50Led to multiple calls subsequently
11:53And when it happened, what's happened?
11:55The government, of course, is talking about punitive action
11:58That putting them on no-fly list and various other things
12:02But is that enough?
12:03That's the question to be asked
12:05In my opinion, government investigating agencies
12:08Ought to be very agile at the moment
12:11And say, where are these materializing from
12:14Originating from on the social media
12:17Where is it?
12:18Now, should it take more than 24 hours?
12:20That's a question that I would like to ask
12:22As a former airline person
12:24That why can't we get on here?
12:26Because if you have had 20 plus instances
12:28In the past four days
12:30Taking a financial toll, yes
12:31Inconveniencing passengers
12:33And the bigger thing is
12:35Creating a sense of fear
12:37Harming airline image
12:39Because it's not just the airline which are suffering
12:42Country's image is also doing
12:44That 20 hoax calls have been made
12:47And we haven't been able to get to anybody so far
12:50The government did indicate to the parliamentary committee yesterday
12:53That we've got some leads
12:55Some FIRs have been filed
12:57Now, whether they were really talking about the Rajnath Gaon boy
13:01Or there was some additional lead
13:03But the country would like to have more information on it
13:06As to what have they done
13:08And where have our investigating agencies reached
13:10To catch these culprits?
13:12Yes, absolutely
13:13And the government, of course, today
13:15Mr. Bhargava has spoken about a law
13:17The question again, as you yourself said
13:19Is that enough?
13:20Is that going to stop something like this?
13:22Well, only time will tell
13:23After the investigation is completed
13:25I wanted to bring in
13:27Group Captain Vinod into this
13:29Group Captain Vinod
13:30You know, of course
13:31We may say that safety is the most important point
13:33But when there are repeated hoax calls
13:35Finances also do become a concern
13:37Now, in this particular, you know, four days
13:40We've had about nine international routes
13:43That have been targeted
13:45Now, what has also happened is
13:47That in two cases particularly
13:49Fighter jets from Singapore and Canada
13:52Had actually to be scrambled
13:54And this was essentially to make sure
13:57That the passengers these aircrafts were carrying
13:59Were safe
14:00So explain to our viewers
14:01How, you know, does one manage
14:04An evolving situation like this?
14:06And obviously, this does create
14:09As all our panelists have spoken
14:11A great sense of fear amongst flyers
14:15Great question, Vipul
14:17And as you started the show
14:19When you were speaking to your reporters
14:23Is the time AI-129
14:26The Mumbai-bound flight from London
14:29Was returning back
14:31And just touched down at London as we speak
14:34And probably one of the victims
14:36Of one of the hoax calls
14:38Here, what I wanted to put in perspective
14:40Vipul, the previous speaker
14:45Spoke about the aspect of hijack
14:48Not many people know
14:50Probably well before many of us were born
14:54Between Cuba and the United States
14:58In a matter of a couple of years
15:01There were 86 hijacks
15:04Everyone who took off from Cuba
15:07Landed in the US
15:08And there were no stringent international rules for hijacking
15:13So people would hijack, land in the US
15:17And seek asylum
15:19And nothing would prevent the US
15:21From not looking at these people
15:24Or the pilots and the co-pilots
15:26From seeking asylum
15:28And some of them got asylum
15:29And some of them are today
15:31Citizens of the United States
15:35That is when there was
15:38A hole in the procedure that was noticed
15:41And the first protocol of hijack started
15:45To put in place and put in play
15:48That kept revising till
15:51The SLPC, the Secondary Ladder Point Check
15:54And all started post the Lockerbie incident
15:57Which killed so many people
15:59So what happens is every now and then
16:01A certain dichotomy or a certain hole in the SOP
16:07Is exposed by the environment
16:11And one such hole is this
16:13The solution to this problem does not lie in India
16:17The solution to this problem lies on the tables of IPA
16:21The International Civil Aviation Organization
16:25They have to wake up
16:27And what is noticed normally is
16:29They wake up when something happens in Europe or America
16:32When something happens in the African regions or Asian regions
16:37They normally don't wake up
16:39Another example I will give you
16:41There was an African captain
16:45Who when a First Officer left to go to the loo
16:50Committed suicide
16:52They did nothing about it
16:53Till there was another pilot in German wings
16:56Committed suicide
16:58And then they said
17:00Whenever any of the pilot goes
17:02One of the cabin crew has to leave the cockpit
17:04So this rule came about
17:06Because there was a gaping hole in the system
17:08The current gaping hole in the system is
17:11Anyone with a Twitter account
17:13Sitting anywhere in the world
17:15Can cause problems
17:17And what will you do
17:18How will you put him in no-fly list
17:19If he is not flying with you at all
17:21So what you are saying at this point is
17:25Obviously we are looking at the situation
17:29In a very narrow manner
17:31Even though this may be a much larger problem
17:33That we are dealing with
17:34I am going to come back to you Group Captain
17:36Let me also bring in Captain Amit Singh
17:39He is the founder of Safety Matters
17:40In fact he did join us yesterday as well
17:42Thank you very much for taking out the time today as well
17:44One thing that has been coming to my mind again and again
17:49Is the timing of it
17:50Look at the timing
17:52It is right in the middle of the festive season
17:54There are increased number of flyers
17:56Who want to go meet their families
17:58So what is happening in a sense is
18:00That there is a greater sense of fear
18:02There is a greater sense of chaos
18:04And obviously whoever is behind this
18:07Is managing to get a lot of attention
18:09What do you make of it?
18:11Well that is why
18:15If anything happens on a bus or a train
18:20It will not grab enough media attention
18:23So people who are motivated to do so
18:27Target civil aviation
18:29Because of primarily the media attention
18:31That is one thing which is well known and well documented
18:35Here I would also like to say that
18:38Even though the rules are basic
18:42But what ICAO and everybody else has moved on to
18:46Is the risk assessment
18:48Earlier everything was black and white
18:50You could either do something or not do something
18:52But now it is upon risk assessment
18:54Risk assessment has to be based on your current information
18:57And whatever inputs are coming from various sources
19:02So by stringent laws
19:06Yes you can punish a person
19:08That can be a deterrent
19:10But how to prevent another series of bomb hoax happening
19:15Or threats happening
19:16That has to be dealt with in a different manner
19:20You have to train your people
19:22How to take decisions
19:24How to analyze the risk
19:26Which I doubt there has been much happening
19:30Because we looked at the safety management system
19:33Which is prevalent
19:35And that has not been successful
19:37As far as the civil aviation is concerned
19:40Similarly for security
19:42We have a security management system
19:44Which is primarily based on the risk assessment
19:47If you have a threat
19:48Then you have to segregate it into a minor threat
19:52Or a major threat
19:53So your action will depend on that
19:55So we cannot continue to take the same action
19:58Which is divert every flight
20:00Stop every flight
20:01Evacuate passengers
20:02Even for a minor threat
20:04We know that is a low-level threat
20:06Or non-specific threat
20:08So the bomb threat assessment committee
20:11Has to be well trained
20:13It has to have inputs from AI
20:16In July 22
20:20A teenager traveling from UK to Spain
20:23Just put on a Snapchat
20:26About a bomb threat or a possible hijack
20:30That was just a joke
20:32And the security agencies monitoring the Wi-Fi at Gatwick
20:36Picked him up as soon as he landed in Spain
20:39So that is the speed at which they need to act
20:43Rather than sitting quiet
20:47Because there has not been any statement issued by the ministry
20:51Or PCAS
20:53Assuring the passengers that our system is safe
20:57There has been an audit in August 24
21:01By ICAO security audit
21:03So when you have undergone an audit
21:05Are you not 100% sure that nothing can happen here?
21:09Or likelihood
21:11Everything works on likelihood or probability
21:13The probability is very low
21:15When you have undergone such a strict audit by ICAO
21:18So an assuring statement to the passengers
21:21So what about that?
21:23So many passengers are traveling
21:25So with these news
21:27Panic is spreading and nobody is doing anything about it
21:30So that is a bigger question
21:32In fact, even as we are talking about this
21:34We are given to understand
21:36That the civil aviation minister has issued a statement
21:40We are just going to cut across to what he said
21:42And then I am going to come back to all of you
21:44On your assessment of how this is going to go forward
21:48So we are ensuring that these kind of fake bomb threats
21:52Don't happen in the future
21:53And any change in rules or change in legislation
21:56We are thoroughly pursuing from our department also
21:58So that it becomes a strict barrier
22:01For people who are trying to do these kind of prank things
22:05And also the police are pursuing the cases
22:09And trying to find out who are behind this
22:11And in fact the home affairs is also helping us a lot in that area
22:16Other than that, whatever needs to be done
22:19Because airlines are also feeling a lot of inconvenience
22:23Including the passengers also
22:25Mr. Brijesh Singh, you just heard the minister over there
22:28Saying that we do need to put in place
22:30Perhaps newer laws
22:32Perhaps more stringent action
22:34What is your sense of how do we take this forward from here?
22:39See as a law enforcement officer
22:40I think our primary difficulty arises
22:42When we need information from either social media platforms
22:45Or information which does not reside in our boundaries
22:48So while for incident sharing
22:50There is something called traffic light protocol
22:52Where information is being shared between
22:55Aviation agencies and agencies across the world
22:59However, when it comes to social media platforms
23:02Or telcos or any such organizations
23:06Then we have serious issues
23:08I believe that there should be a modicum of platform responsibility
23:12Wherein, whatever platform it is
23:15Should take stringent measures
23:17That these things are detected
23:19By whatever, if they want to use an AI
23:21If they want to use ML
23:22Whatever they want to use
23:23They should see to it that threats are not made using platforms
23:27Apart from that, for investigation
23:29Antiforensic measures are used by these people
23:33Like VPN
23:35I understand that for democracy at places
23:40For activism at places
23:41For individual privacy
23:44These technologies are essential
23:46But when these become a threat to larger public security
23:50You will need to have measures
23:51Where you would need to get information from
23:53Let's say VPN service providers
23:54From social media platforms
23:57From telcos
23:58And if we can get this information in real time
24:02As one of the speakers was telling
24:03Then only we would be able to put a lid
24:06To all these things
24:07Whether they are vox calls
24:08Or whether they are real threats
24:12Absolutely, so those are perhaps
24:13Some measures that could be looked at
24:15Any final thoughts Mr. Bhargava on this
24:18On what is the need of the hour
24:21To deal with this threat?
24:24You know the minister made a statement
24:26And we all heard
24:27He talked about the inconvenience
24:28Cost to passengers, the airline
24:30And the punitive action
24:32That you will be taking
24:33Against the people who are pranksters
24:36But the reality is
24:38What are we doing to ensure
24:41That no such calls are made
24:43And how fast can we reach
24:44The origin of these messages
24:47Only then can you catch people
24:49We can't be talking of punitive action against them
24:51Unless we know how to catch them
24:54And how to prevent them
24:55The focus in my
24:57Of course he is minister of civil aviation
24:59But let the whole ministry come out
25:01And say well we have a problem on hand
25:03And this is what we are doing
25:05And this is how we will go about
25:07And catch them
25:08The sense of confidence
25:09Has to be put in the airlines
25:12That look we are going to catch them
25:15And we are on track to do it
25:17Now when you look at
25:18The last four days that we are talking about
25:20First instance we know about it
25:22Second, the first three instances
25:25One man is responsible
25:27Take from the fourth onward
25:29Now what have we done in the last 72 hours
25:32Now that's where it is
25:33It can't be that the social media
25:36Which are being used by them
25:37To give these threat calls
25:39We can't reach them
25:40One of course Mr. Brijesingh
25:42Very rightly said
25:44To prevent it
25:45Get them people to look at it
25:47But the reality is
25:48That we need to be acting
25:50Very fast
25:51Mr. Ahmed Singh made a statement
25:53That how on his plane
25:54Within hours the plane landed
25:56You could catch him
25:57Now can't we have
25:58That kind of speed with us
26:00This is a very serious matter
26:02Absolutely
26:03Now it's not just a financial loss
26:05That we talk about
26:06Inconvenience of passengers
26:07The bigger question is
26:08How do we get to the culprit
26:10In the shortest possible time
26:12And that's the challenge
26:13Before our investigating agencies
26:15Absolutely
26:16Captain Ahmed Singh
26:17You were talking about the challenges
26:19That we are facing
26:20And obviously everybody seems to agree
26:22That the need of the hour
26:23Perhaps is quicker detection
26:25Quicker management of the situation
26:28Also perhaps
26:29Any final thoughts
26:30Before I bring in Aditya
26:32Who in fact
26:33Is going to speak about
26:34The pilot protocols
26:35That are in place
26:36In a situation like this
26:39See in the modern world
26:40There are systems available
26:41Like natural language processing
26:44Text matching
26:46And you check the sentiment
26:48Emotion of the person
26:49Machine learning
26:50Pattern recognition
26:51Anomaly detection
26:53Data fusion
26:55Predictive analysis
26:56So this all combined
26:58Can give you an assessment
26:59Of how realistic the threat is
27:02So you cannot treat everything
27:03As a big threat
27:06Like play safe
27:07And put all aircrafts down
27:09Evacuating the passengers
27:11And secondly
27:12I would like to say that
27:14In Europe
27:15A scramble costs about $103,000
27:18So that is charged to the person
27:20Who is caught
27:21Right
27:22And every diversion
27:24Which was calculated
27:25Way back by FAA
27:27Translates to about
27:28Between 70,000 to 1 crore
27:31Every time an aircraft diverts
27:33Depending on the size of the aircraft
27:34And the route they are flying
27:35So that is a kind of
27:37Finances
27:39Or the financial hit
27:40That we are looking at
27:41Okay
27:42So it is
27:43If we invest that amount
27:45Into predictive analysis
27:47On the modern technology
27:48I am sure that we would be
27:50On top of things
27:51Right
27:52I am afraid
27:53Gentlemen
27:54I am completely out of time
27:55Thank you very much
27:56For joining us on the broadcast
27:57All of you
27:58Quick word from Aditya
28:00Aditya
28:01Just tell us
28:02What are the protocols in place
28:03For a pilot
28:04Who is dealing with
28:05An issue like this
28:06Before I begin
28:07A quick update
28:08That as we speak
28:10Two more indigo flights
28:11Have got these bomb scares
28:13And this issue is not stopping
28:15Now let me get down
28:16To the pilot protocols
28:18When such a scare happens
28:20Basically what a pilot
28:21According to DGCA
28:23Civil aviation requirement
28:24What a pilot actually has to
28:26Does is to
28:27He has to basically
28:28The pilot has to declare
28:29The full emergency on the flight
28:30And then the flight is diverted
28:32To nearest military
28:33Or civil aviation airport
28:35Where the flight has landed
28:36And after that
28:37All the passengers
28:38And the crew members
28:39Are disembarked from the flight
28:40And flight is thoroughly checked
28:42These passengers
28:43Who have been disembarked
28:44The crew members
28:45Who have been disembarked
28:46Are taken to the aerodrome
28:47And they are kept in a safer place
28:50And then
28:51After all the security checks
28:52It is only then
28:53The flight is allowed
28:55To take off
28:56For the further journey
28:57Or then it remains
28:59With the authorities
29:00To decide
29:01That what could be
29:02The further solution
29:03But when a flight
29:04Makes a landing
29:05As we have been told
29:06In our previous discussions
29:08It is an expense
29:09Of nearly 50 to 60 lakh rupees
29:11Per domestic flight this is
29:13Alright
29:14Aditya thank you for that
29:15Well with that
29:16It is a wrap
29:17On the big story
29:18We are of course
29:19Continuously receiving more threats
29:21And agencies of course
29:23Are dealing with it
29:25There is also going to be
29:26A new law that is likely
29:28Going to be put in place
29:29To deal with this unprecedented situation
29:32That Indian flyers and airlines
29:34Are having to face