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00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, you are watching Khabar Lahariya. I am Muhammad Malik.
00:23Bushra Bibi was released and then she reached Peshawar.
00:27And with this release, a conspiracy theory has become glorious in Islamabad.
00:32Such a conspiracy theory is going on.
00:34And you can give arguments on both sides.
00:37The first argument is that when these constitutional amendments were made,
00:42the biggest four or five demands were from the PTI.
00:45And then the PTI spoke to Aslam Ghori, who is the JIO spokesperson.
00:51He said that the PTI told us that Faiz Isa should not be involved in any matter,
00:56in the Constitutional Court or anywhere else.
00:58The transfer of power of the judges was being discussed.
01:01You should transfer the judges of the High Court.
01:03This issue should not be compromised.
01:05Military courts should not come.
01:07The judges' ace should not be teased.
01:09It will remain for 65 years so that one day Faiz Isa will get an extension.
01:12The first argument of the Parliament was that the Parliament should have the right
01:18to revoke the decision of the Supreme Court.
01:20That should not be in the middle.
01:21And the Constitutional Court.
01:23Anyway, it was also a member of the JIO.
01:25In my show, Khawaja Asif also repeated that there were two or three conditions
01:29that we agreed to.
01:30And after that, he was actively involved in it.
01:34Then when it was released, people said,
01:37look, it seems like a soft approach, a soft deal is being made.
01:41But we see that Bushra Bibi has been released.
01:44But Khan Sahib's two sisters are still in prison.
01:49And although their case was a very minor case.
01:52It was a case of law and order.
01:55So what is the theory going on in Islamabad?
01:58Look, Bushra Bibi has come.
02:00She has now gone to Peshawar.
02:03And off the record, whenever there were talks with the senior leaders of PTI,
02:08one thing came up again and again.
02:10They used to say that Ali Ameen Ghandapur's nomination as Chief Minister
02:14and his continued confidence in Khan Sahib,
02:18in that, Bushra Bibi's confidence matters a lot.
02:22And now that she has come and is also in Peshawar,
02:25you will see that perhaps Yeni's combo will now come forward as a good habit of the party.
02:30And this is also going on in conspiracy theory.
02:33That is why her sisters will not be released yet,
02:36so that they can take their space first.
02:39When I spoke to the leaders of Punjab today,
02:42there was also a lot of mourning there.
02:46The Hamad Azhar group was having a big clash with Ali Ameen Ghandapur
02:51because this was the issue of Punjab's leadership.
02:54They were saying that we are taking all the beatings, we are taking all the beatings.
02:58And all the posts are with the KP people.
03:02And you will remember that when the parliamentary committee was being formed
03:05and its nominations were made and then the protest on 15th was called,
03:08then Hamad Azhar etc. gave it and there was also a disagreement on that.
03:12So, you see a lot of fractures in the party.
03:16Now there are conspiracy theories as well, which I don't like at all.
03:21Because conspiracy theory is when you don't know what the ultimate deal will be.
03:25What can be the ultimate deal?
03:27That Mr. Khan will now promise that we will go in installments and let Mr. Khan come out.
03:33That cannot be seen from any logic.
03:37Because if Mr. Khan comes out, then the total political equation changes.
03:41And everything will become irrelevant.
03:43And this government, I think, can run as long as it has space and time,
03:50until Mr. Khan comes out.
03:52The party structure has been badly destroyed.
03:55There are these fightings in the party, everything is there.
03:58So, if there is to be an ultimate deal, then it has to be one thing,
04:01that will Imran Khan be released or not.
04:03And if that deal is not on the table,
04:05then the rest of the things are more conspiracy theories.
04:10And secondly, we have seen in the past, whenever there was a deal like this,
04:13whether it was with Benazir Bhutto, General Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif,
04:20there was always an arbiter or a guarantor.
04:24Right now, the guarantor is neither domestic nor international.
04:28So, it seems that people are talking based on events.
04:32But it is a very fast evolving political situation.
04:36Salman Akram Raja has joined us.
04:40He is the Secretary General and a senior lawyer of PTI.
04:43And after the program, we will talk with him in the second part as well.
04:47We will join him.
04:48Barrister Saad Rasool has joined us.
04:50Political Legal Analyst Mazar Abbas, a senior journalist, is with us.
04:54But first, let me talk to Salman Akram Raja, with your permission,
04:58so that we can get a clear version of PTI.
05:01Salam Salman.
05:02Yes, Salam.
05:04Salman, first of all, the law movement and the law community is divided.
05:11Some bars are here and some are there.
05:14Yesterday, Ali Zafar was in my program.
05:17He also said that Mr. Yahya is a great man.
05:21And the constitutional amendment has come.
05:24So, he is the Chief Justice.
05:25You said that we will accept Mansoor Ali Shah.
05:28Mr. Mansoor Ali Shah himself has accepted him as the Chief Justice.
05:31He gave a few hearings in his court before leaving.
05:35And he said, okay, we will go to the courts and benches.
05:39And clearly, he has accepted the new status.
05:43So, is the lawyer movement still going on?
05:48Look, there are two things.
05:50One is that a situation has been created.
05:53The way the votes were taken, people were kidnapped.
05:56Before that, fraud was done in the elections.
05:58You made a party of 17 seats into a party of 100 seats, etc.
06:02We say that all this is wrong and we do not believe it.
06:06So, this is a permanent thing in its place.
06:09We say that this constitutional amendment has also been done through bribery,
06:13force, or greed.
06:15We do not believe it.
06:17And what it means is also an attack on freedom of justice.
06:21We do not believe it.
06:22But there is a situation.
06:24A court has been established.
06:26If Mr. Afridi takes a vote, he will be the Chief Justice.
06:30As far as his personal relationship is concerned, we have no comment on that.
06:35He has a lot of fame and is a fair-minded jurist.
06:40But our movement is not against him.
06:43Our defense is not against him.
06:46It is against this attack on the freedom of justice in Pakistan.
06:51So, it is in its place.
06:53We will definitely protest against it.
06:55Because it is a matter of my freedom.
06:58It is not a matter of PTI.
07:00So, will the courts that will be headed by the Chief Justice,
07:04the lawyers on your side, boycott it?
07:08Because if they do not boycott it, then you will recognize it.
07:11No, we will definitely protest.
07:13Look, when a situation has been established on the ground,
07:17whether it is de facto or de jure, it is a position.
07:21We will not allow cases to be filed against our people.
07:24We will not go and defend them.
07:26We will definitely defend them.
07:28Okay, tell me this.
07:29A conversation has started in Islamabad.
07:31It seems that a soft deal has been made, a truce has been made.
07:35These people point out two or three things.
07:38They said that Faiz Isa is gone.
07:40Military courts are gone.
07:42Bushra Bibi is gone from jail.
07:45PTI's threats of agitation are gone.
07:49Your lawyer movement is nowhere to be seen.
07:52So, has there been a deal for a go-slow?
07:56We will also go slow.
07:58You give us some relief.
08:00Establishment and government.
08:02We will talk, but we will not come on the streets.
08:04We will not disrupt.
08:05Because we are still getting talks.
08:08Lawyers have not come to the streets.
08:10Nor did the party that used to threaten you,
08:13Mr. Gandapur always comes and then disappears from Chungi Chabbi.
08:17We are not getting on the ground.
08:19So, has there been a soft truce?
08:22Something like that?
08:23No, no, nothing like that.
08:25Look, we are based on our principles.
08:28And for that, we will fight on every level.
08:31You will soon see this on the streets.
08:33We will fight this war on the intellectual level and on the streets.
08:37And the courts that are available to us, we will also go to those courts.
08:41So, it is not at all that we have deviated from a principle.
08:46It is not like that at all.
08:48The impact that is being given, and let me tell you,
08:50this is a very big impact of social media or electronic media,
08:53that the leadership of the party is over,
08:55the structures are over, infighting has taken place.
08:58There is nothing like that.
08:59But there are talks.
09:00There should be in every party.
09:03We have committees.
09:04There is a political committee.
09:05There is a core committee.
09:06There is another committee.
09:07There can be disagreement in that.
09:10Salman, with all due respect,
09:12I have been in journalism for 38 years.
09:15I have covered politics.
09:16These are standard sentences that we always used to hear,
09:19whether it is you or the People's Party,
09:21that there is disagreement.
09:23It happens in every family.
09:24There are parties.
09:25There is no one among us.
09:26But all those things come out later.
09:28And there is nothing unnatural.
09:30There is absolute grouping.
09:31There is a fight on the basis of power.
09:33Let's not go there.
09:35Time is wasted.
09:36There is no use.
09:37But tell me two things.
09:40One minute.
09:41You said in the beginning that the structure is over.
09:45It is not like that.
09:46See, whether to participate in the parliamentary committee or not,
09:49there were two opinions.
09:51The majority opinion prevailed.
09:53The structure was there.
09:55The decision we made with the majority opinion,
09:57everyone agreed to it.
09:59So to say that there is no structure is completely wrong.
10:01The parliamentary party, the numbers and names,
10:04did you approve them, Secretary General?
10:06Because the news came that you said
10:08that how did you do it without me?
10:10If I did not approve, how did you notify?
10:13I did not want to do it alone.
10:15There are committees in our party who have to do this work.
10:20That is why this notice was taken.
10:22And we said that this was wrong.
10:23And it was accepted.
10:25That is why they did not participate.
10:27Okay, because you said something that went viral.
10:30What you said about Maulana Fazlur Rehman,
10:32that he said that his own people will get up
10:37and we cannot go ahead with this.
10:41Let's listen to how Kamran Murtaza has debunked that.
10:45Kindly listen to it.
10:47It would have been better if you had pushed further with Maulana.
10:50And the voting stage would have been shaken.
10:52If you had succeeded in pushing so much.
10:54We did it.
10:55Maulana went to a place and said,
10:57then they will do it on their own.
10:59And if they want to kidnap, they will do it.
11:01This is their requirement.
11:03I said that we cannot go beyond this.
11:05Maulana said this very clearly.
11:08We will have to go on this.
11:10We will have to vote.
11:11If we do not vote here,
11:13then I do not know how many of our people will be kidnapped.
11:15How many of your people will be kidnapped.
11:17Maulana said that I cannot go beyond this.
11:19In my presence, this has not happened with Salman Akram Raja.
11:23And I myself have been in touch with Salman Akram Raja most of the time.
11:27I was present in both the last meetings.
11:29I was also present in the media talks.
11:32If it was going to happen,
11:34then I would have been the easiest target.
11:36I am the easiest target.
11:38So no one has disturbed me.
11:42Now Kamran Murza is saying that no such thing happened.
11:45His spokesperson is saying that whatever the PTI said,
11:48we got those things done.
11:50So, what do we believe?
11:54This is your choice.
11:55What I said is absolutely correct.
11:57I am standing on that.
11:58And it is not that whatever we said,
12:00it was accepted or accepted.
12:02We had a fundamental disagreement with these parties.
12:05The seniority of the Chief Justice
12:07and what is the role of the Constitutional Bench through the Judicial Commission.
12:11We said that if we want to make a Constitutional Bench,
12:14then it should be the same as in India, for example,
12:17that the senior most become 5 or 7.
12:20No one chooses them.
12:22We opposed the act of choosing.
12:24And what has now come to light,
12:26is extremely disturbing.
12:28Both the Parliamentary Committee
12:30and the Judicial Commission
12:32are completely in the hands of the government.
12:34The government will decide.
12:35And we know what the government is.
12:37So, this was our stance.
12:39In fact, at one stage,
12:41we went to a side room
12:43and the people there,
12:45we discussed among ourselves.
12:47And our stance was that we cannot go beyond this.
12:49And they cannot go beyond this.
12:51So, this is how it happened.
12:53I am absolutely on my stance.
12:55You are saying that you are on your stance.
12:57And Maulana Sahib said this to you.
13:00It is possible that he was away
13:02or he did not listen to us at that time.
13:04This was a matter of course.
13:06Look, your people can also break.
13:08Our people can also break.
13:10What they have to do, they are determined to do.
13:12So, if we can stop them up to this point, then it is fine.
13:14And we also appealed to them
13:16to stop them up to this point.
13:18If we do not go to a worse thing than this,
13:20then what is the fun in this?
13:24There is also a perception that
13:27the release of Bushra Bibi,
13:29maybe it was thought that
13:31there was no point in keeping her inside.
13:34In fact, there is a loss.
13:36And Imran Khan Sahib's position is further hardened.
13:38So, we should take her out and see.
13:40Do you see this as a tactical retreat
13:42of the government establishment?
13:44Or is this an olive branch?
13:46How do you see this?
13:48Look, this is also a very strange thing.
13:51This matter has happened in the court.
13:53The bail has been given by the court.
13:55The bail has been taken by the court.
13:57Now, this is implicit in your question.
14:00It is hidden in it.
14:02And it is not even so hidden
14:04that the court is a part of that action.
14:07They were indicated to give bail.
14:09So, they gave bail.
14:11I will say that I was present in the court.
14:13The debate that took place,
14:15there is no case against Bushra Bibi
14:17or Imran Khan Sahib.
14:19The bail was given because there is no case
14:21Now, if you say that no, no, no,
14:23this is not the case.
14:25Islamabad High Court has given bail
14:27because there is a deal.
14:29So, I do not agree with this.
14:31These were the facts on the ground
14:33since nine months.
14:35Why did the High Court see
14:37that this is not even possible?
14:39No, no, it is not like that.
14:41Look, there were different cases
14:43in nine months.
14:45First, they were put in the case
14:47of Iddat.
14:49So, this has been done in different cases.
14:51And this is right.
14:53The decision to give bail
14:55was made at the court level
14:57a long time ago.
14:59That was done last week.
15:01Immediately after that, we came to the High Court.
15:03There were two or three hearings in the High Court.
15:05Mr. Salman, tell me one thing.
15:07Where are you standing now?
15:09What is the strategy now?
15:11Because it comes every day that
15:13there will be protests on this,
15:15on this.
15:17Now, they have left the case
15:19of the Military Courts.
15:21The Six Judges
15:23were said to be the targets of Islamabad.
15:25That this power will come
15:27that the High Court judges
15:29should be transferred without their consent.
15:31That also came out of nowhere.
15:33So, a lot of big things came out at the time.
15:35Then, Bushra Bibi was also there.
15:37At this time, people connect one thing.
15:39In a string of events,
15:41you find a pattern.
15:43On the other hand,
15:45there is a pattern of go slow.
15:47Now, tell me specifically
15:49if you are going to start
15:51protests by lawyers,
15:53when are you going to do it?
15:55If you are going to come
15:57against this protest,
15:59when are you going to come?
16:01Will these weeks pass
16:03in such a way that
16:05you have a specific time frame?
16:07It won't take long.
16:09We will definitely protest
16:11and you will see.
16:13What happened with the High Court
16:15was that the Military Courts
16:17and the transfer of judges
16:19from one High Court to another
16:21was stopped.
16:23But the people
16:25who are close to the Supreme Court
16:27are saying every day
16:29that the 27th amendment will come
16:31and we will arrest everything
16:33that did not happen here.
16:35I am surprised when people
16:37think that this is a matter of PTI.
16:39Today, in the High Court,
16:41the PTI said to the lawyers
16:43that in a year you will cry
16:45and you will come to us
16:47and complain that we made a mistake.
16:49Look, what has happened
16:51is such a big incident
16:53that you said that the power
16:55of the High Courts
16:57to give relief on constitutional grounds
16:59should disappear or
17:01should issue an order
17:03against a channel or a journalist.
17:05Where will you go?
17:07You will go to those special judges
17:09and what relief will you get?
17:11Please correct me if I am wrong.
17:13We will talk about this later.
17:15Didn't they say
17:17that you will not give
17:19more relief than what you have asked for?
17:21You will not go beyond the sorting.
17:23No, no.
17:25This is a matter of its own.
17:27But who will give relief?
17:29Judges will be elected for that
17:31on the level of the High Court.
17:33So if you challenge this
17:35constitutional amendment,
17:37you will go to those judges
17:39who will be your hand-picked judges.
17:41This is what I am saying.
17:43In my opinion,
17:45this will not be possible in the courts
17:47because we will tell those judges
17:49to end their existence
17:51by ending this amendment.
17:53So I do not have much hope
17:55that the same judges will end their existence.
17:57The real problem is that
17:59on the level of the High Court
18:01and on the level of the Supreme Court
18:03the elected judges will hear this argument.
18:05You will not get relief.
18:07This is not a matter of PTI.
18:09This is a matter of every lost person.
18:11This is a matter of every journalist
18:13who wants to speak truth to power.
18:15You will see this now.
18:17No, no.
18:19We are also afraid of this.
18:21This is a very alarming development.
18:23I totally agree with you.
18:25But tell me one thing.
18:27Let me tell you one thing.
18:29This will happen.
18:31I assure you.
18:33You will stand with us.
18:35You will be a journalist.
18:37This is a matter of every lost person.
18:39The whole society will be out
18:41when they will understand
18:43what has happened.
18:45Will Bushra Bibi have a political role
18:47in the party now?
18:49I don't think so.
18:51I don't think she will have a political role.
18:53Because her leaving from here
18:55and meeting the Chief Minister
18:57and the KP
18:59and everything else
19:01The angle is very clear
19:03that you are afraid
19:05that she will be arrested again
19:07and taken into protection.
19:09But when she meets your highest profile
19:11political leaders
19:13then you get the impression
19:15that she will be more active.
19:17No, this is a wrong impression.
19:19She will remain a homemaker.
19:21She has only come as a KP
19:23so that she doesn't get killed again.
19:25So that she doesn't file a false case.
19:27Last question, Salman.
19:29Your protest movement
19:31Lawyers Movement Front
19:33Are we talking about days?
19:35Weeks?
19:37Or months?
19:39No, we are not talking about months.
19:41We are talking about days.
19:43Days and weeks.
19:45But it won't happen
19:47that we will go crazy
19:49and get our heads chopped
19:51and our workers killed.
19:53We will do this in a very careful way.
19:55And this will happen
19:57in such a way
19:59that the society will support us.
20:01We are absolutely certain
20:03that this is a matter of society
20:05and not just a matter of PTI.
20:07Salman, thank you very much
20:09for giving us time.
20:11Let's start with you.
20:13I heard the whole thing
20:15and with a lot of patience
20:17you both heard it.
20:19What do you think?
20:21This is a matter of weeks.
20:23I don't see any movement
20:25What do you think?
20:27Is this a tactical retreat
20:29of the government and the establishment
20:31to allow Bushra Bibi to come out?
20:33Okay, the court has given her bail.
20:35I agree with the court
20:37to give her credit.
20:39But not to make another fake case.
20:41It could have happened again in a good case.
20:43Is this the realization
20:45that there was no point in keeping her in?
20:47Should we take her out and see?
20:49From what we hear from the party
20:51that this combined
20:53Bushra Bibi and Gandapur
20:55will be the main powerhouses.
20:57Is this a soft deal?
20:59What do you think?
21:03The first thing
21:05that Salman was saying
21:07is that
21:09if we
21:11lawyers look at
21:132007
21:15then I don't think
21:17a 2007 movement will work.
21:19In 2007,
21:21there was a general
21:23who was a ruler
21:25and against him
21:27there was a general
21:29who was against him.
21:31He was a military ruler.
21:33Then there was
21:35Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry,
21:37the Chief Justice.
21:39It was a very different movement.
21:41I would like to add
21:43one thing.
21:45Do you remember
21:47when General Kiani
21:49started a game
21:51against General Musharraf?
21:53There was a
21:55crack and a very fast
21:57movement.
21:59There were
22:01two or three things.
22:03Because I was
22:05the Secretary General
22:07at the time of PFUJ.
22:09When the media was banned
22:11I became a part of it.
22:13There were two things.
22:15One was that in June or July
22:17when the Supreme Court
22:19restored Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry
22:21it was obvious that
22:23that movement was
22:25a success.
22:27In a way,
22:29it was a success
22:31within a few months.
22:33But after that,
22:35we saw that in November
22:37there was another emergency.
22:39Once again,
22:41Iftikhar Chaudhry and his
22:43colleagues were removed
22:45from the agreement.
22:47In 2009, when Nawaz Sharif
22:49took a long march,
22:51the agreement was restored.
22:53This is why Iftikhar Chaudhry
22:55has a long tenure as the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
22:57But
22:59as Salman was saying,
23:01the first thing is that
23:03People's Party and
23:05Muslim League claim
23:07that the 26th amendment
23:09is the implementation
23:11of the Charter of Democracy.
23:13In the Charter of Democracy,
23:15as far as the Constitutional Court
23:17is concerned,
23:19the executive
23:21and the judiciary
23:23will be separated.
23:25There are many other things.
23:27Now,
23:29it is true that
23:31Iftikhar Chaudhry,
23:33Saqib Nisar,
23:35Atif Saeed Khosa,
23:37Justice Umar Bandyal,
23:39or even Justice Qadi Faizi
23:41have developed an impression
23:43that the judiciary
23:45is being over-reached
23:47in many cases.
23:49Even within the judiciary,
23:51it has been said that
23:53we are going beyond our limits
23:55and because of that,
23:57there is political uncertainty.
23:59But our political leaders
24:01also have a hand in this.
24:03For example,
24:05when Yusuf Radha Gilani
24:07was disqualified,
24:09we see Mr. Chaudhry's role
24:11and we also see Mr. Nawaz Sharif's role.
24:13Mr. Nawaz Sharif was the one
24:15who went into that case.
24:17So, we have to see
24:19whether judicial overreach
24:21has been done or not.
24:23But the answer to this
24:25is not political overreach.
24:27Let's focus on this first.
24:29Is it a tactical retreat?
24:31Is it being done in such a way
24:33that the parties are given
24:35small reliefs?
24:37Mr. Malik, I can see
24:39two things very clearly.
24:41One is that because of the
24:4326th amendment
24:45and the formation of
24:47constitutional benches,
24:49the government
24:51has become a little
24:53confident that
24:55their government
24:57will not be removed
24:59through the Supreme Court
25:01or through the court.
25:03So, in a way, they have
25:05become safe from this front.
25:07Now, in the other front,
25:09the movement for justice,
25:11there hasn't been any
25:13big movement so far.
25:15Now, one thing can be that
25:17when one thing is satisfied,
25:19then a little gesture
25:21can be given,
25:23a little relief can be given.
25:25But I am not getting
25:27the impression that
25:29there has been a deal
25:31with Mr. Imran Khan.
25:33We can talk about the
25:35constitutional benches
25:37because I don't understand
25:39the basis of the deal.
25:41Ultimately, the deal
25:43will be that Mr. Imran Khan
25:45will come out.
25:47I am saying that you
25:49can give a gesture
25:51by releasing Bushra Bibi
25:53or by removing
25:55Mr. Imran Khan's facilities
25:57or by giving a gesture
25:59to his lawyers
26:01or by releasing
26:03Mr. Imran Khan's
26:05facilities or by giving
26:07a gesture to his lawyers.
26:09Let's talk about this.
26:11Let me ask you a legal question.
26:13This will take a long time.
26:15One thing is clear.
26:17Judiciary is also totally split.
26:19As we speak,
26:21there was a court
26:23that was given by the Supreme Court
26:25and the Pakistan Bar Council
26:27for the present Chief Justice.
26:29Interestingly,
26:31those who have not reached
26:33yet,
26:35Justice Munir Akhtar,
26:37Justice Atta Manila,
26:39Justice Ayesha Malik,
26:41Justice Shahid Waheed,
26:43and Justice Mansoor,
26:45who was suddenly misguided
26:47in such an emergency
26:49that he will not come
26:51today, tomorrow,
26:53or in the full court.
26:55First of all,
26:57there is a clear message
26:59that if you do not
27:01go to each other's houses,
27:03then what is the point?
27:05We were hearing that
27:07the new Chief Justice
27:09should be given
27:11a full court.
27:13Just as Justice Mansoor
27:15has sent a letter
27:17to the Chief Justice
27:19that he will not sit
27:21in the three-member bench
27:23that will make the benches
27:25empty. Why?
27:27When the judges are so split
27:29that they are not going
27:31to each other's houses,
27:33why is the Chief Justice
27:35forced to sit in the full court
27:37and argue?
27:39Mr. Malik,
27:41what you said is absolutely
27:43correct and I will
27:45answer it from another
27:47perspective.
27:49Another way to put it,
27:51I think, will be that
27:53the new Chief Justice
27:55will face some political
27:57reliefs or political cases.
27:59I think there are
28:01bigger and more delicate
28:03challenges in front of the
28:05new Chief Justice.
28:07In the judiciary,
28:09there is a split in the past.
28:11In the judiciary of the 90s,
28:13there was a split in the past.
28:15I will tell you the difference.
28:17After Justice Qazi Faiz Esa,
28:19not when he was Chief Justice,
28:21but with the current Chief Justice,
28:23Mr. Saqib Nisar and Mr. Bandyal,
28:25he did not
28:27put that split or that conversation
28:29behind the judicial curtain.
28:31He brought it through letters,
28:33petitions, allegations,
28:35and writing into a space
28:37where you spoke,
28:39I spoke, social media spoke.
28:41It was a public space.
28:43Even here,
28:45if you read Justice Qazi Faiz Esa's
28:47last judgment,
28:49he has given his detailed reasoning.
28:51Even in that, there is a
28:53judiciary dispute.
28:55He did not give
28:57the remaining reasoning
28:59on Article 106 and Article 54.
29:01In his answer, there was another
29:03controversial note in which he said
29:05that Mr. Faiz Esa should not use such language.
29:07This tradition, even before now,
29:09there have been differences of opinion in the judiciary.
29:11We can go back to Malik Qayyum.
29:13There have been many differences of opinion.
29:15But those differences,
29:17they have been brought through letters
29:19into the public space.
29:21In front of Justice Yaya Afridi,
29:23the first challenge will be that
29:25all the disputes,
29:27they should be taken from the public space
29:29to the private space,
29:31to the administrative side of the full court,
29:33to the Supreme Court,
29:35to the Procedures Committee.
29:37There may be judicial disputes,
29:39there may be disputes on the interpretation
29:41of the Constitution,
29:43but there should not be a difference
29:45that they become so public
29:47that people start questioning
29:49the credibility of the Supreme Court.
29:51This is the second thing.
29:53Justice Qazi Faiz Esa's one unfortunate legacy,
29:55and now everyone is talking about it,
29:57so we should also talk about it,
29:59is that public confidence
30:01has also eroded in our judicial system.
30:03People say that...
30:05No, no, that is fine.
30:07I am being asked to take a break.
30:09But I want a quick answer.
30:11Is there any compulsion
30:13on this issue?
30:15The letter that you referred to
30:17Justice Mansoor Ali Shah,
30:19and Justice Muneeb Akhtar's letters
30:21say that on the administrative side,
30:23not on the judicial side,
30:25every Chief Justice regularly
30:27constitutes a full court meeting.
30:29When the first law of procedures came,
30:31it was also put on the administrative side.
30:33A new Chief Justice
30:35cannot do this.
30:37In the past, there is no example
30:39of a new Chief Justice
30:41who did not call within a week or 10 days.
30:43Some even called before that.
30:45Justice Yaya Freedy
30:47will have two kinds of obligations
30:49to constitute this full court meeting.
30:51One is that he is a new Chief Justice,
30:53he has to preside the full court.
30:55What will be the conversation in that?
30:57What will Justice Mansoor Ali Shah say?
30:59The rest is up to them.
31:01Second, the two members of his committee,
31:03who are number two and number three,
31:05both have written letters
31:07and said that
31:09they will constitute a full court meeting
31:11and put the law of procedures
31:13and the committee in front of it.
31:15Both these obligations
31:17for an independent Chief Justice
31:19who wants to reduce the judicial dispute
31:21and improve the credibility of the judiciary.
31:23Both these obligations will serve
31:25for him to call the full court meeting
31:27on the administrative side.
31:29That is, Justice Mansoor and Muneeb Akhtar
31:31will have to satisfy.
31:33They will definitely have to.
31:35They do not agree with him.
31:37What will be their option?
31:39I will tell you two options.
31:41First, Justice Mansoor...
31:43We are asking for an option.
31:45Let's take an urgent break.
31:47Then I will come back
31:49and talk to Mr. Mazhar about
31:51what will happen politically after this break.
32:01Welcome back to the show.
32:03Viewers, let me put this in perspective.
32:05Justice Mansoor Shah has written a letter
32:07to Chief Justice Faiz Shah.
32:09He has said that
32:11until a full court bench
32:13decides on the ordinance
32:15that changed the procedure act
32:17and gave the power back to the Chief Justice
32:19to elect a third member,
32:21he will not sit.
32:23In my opinion,
32:25he has put the future Chief Justice
32:27in a fix.
32:29Technically, he has written a letter to the Chief Justice
32:31but a hole has dug for him.
32:33Muneeb Akhtar has also written a similar letter.
32:35Although he says that
32:37Justice Mansoor
32:39and Justice Jaya Afridi
32:41were from the same chamber.
32:43I thought it would be a friendly treatment.
32:45Very quickly, I have to go to Mr. Mazhar.
32:47Tell me, Mr. Shah,
32:49he is saying that
32:51first, make a full court bench.
32:53First, decide
32:55whether the ordinance was wrong
32:57or right.
32:59Otherwise, I will not sit on the bench.
33:01He has two options.
33:03First, make a full court bench
33:05and listen to the petition.
33:07If the ordinance is wrong,
33:09then the question will arise
33:11what will happen to the bench.
33:13Second, he will say
33:15that he does not want to sit
33:17because he has the power
33:19and will bring the other two members.
33:21These are the two options left.
33:23This is a minefield
33:25for the future Chief Justice.
33:27The Chief Justice
33:29who could not become the Chief Justice.
33:31Let me clarify this
33:33for your listeners.
33:35The letter of Justice Mansoor
33:37which you are referring to
33:39and the letter of Justice Muneeb Akhtar
33:41in the perspective of this committee
33:43have come under the bench formation.
33:45I did not write it to you.
33:47I wrote it to Faiz Isa.
33:49I think he is referring to the Chief Justice
33:51whoever he may be at the time.
33:53On the last day.
33:55There are two different things
33:57that are happening.
33:59One, the demand of these two judges
34:01after reading their letters
34:03is that the Chief Justice
34:05has the power
34:07after the amendment
34:09and after the ordinance
34:11to choose the third judge
34:13of the committee of procedures.
34:15One, these two senior judges
34:17say that on the administrative side
34:19No, both are saying
34:21to make a full bench
34:23otherwise we will not sit.
34:25On the administrative side
34:27the Chief Justice will make
34:29an independent and transparent decision
34:31about the third judge.
34:33And now there are two challenges
34:35in front of the Supreme Court.
34:37One is the challenge of this ordinance
34:39and the other is the challenge
34:41of the constitutional amendment
34:43which has been challenged
34:4514 times in the history of Pakistan.
34:47You were not a bench
34:49and now you have become a bench.
34:51Mansoor Ilyas Shah is saying
34:53that the games of the judges
34:55are still going on.
34:57And I don't think
34:59that a full board court bench
35:01will be formed.
35:03But I want to discuss
35:05a little in politics
35:07because we are talking
35:09in this context.
35:11You are absolutely right
35:13that the government
35:15has got a sense of relief.
35:17If this relief is being given
35:19and the message of softness
35:21is being conveyed
35:23then there will be
35:25more cases.
35:27Jali was a weak case
35:29but it was a big case.
35:31And the sisters of Ibrahim Khan
35:33are also in jail
35:35and their cases are lesser.
35:37So why were they not
35:39released in this small justice?
35:41Sir, this is a very simple thing.
35:43This is the biggest
35:45misfortune of any court.
35:47Not only this.
35:49If a layman like me
35:51can look at the judges
35:53and tell them
35:55that these judges
35:57are of Muslim League
35:59known mind,
36:01PTI mind,
36:03People's Party mind
36:05then there can't be
36:07a bigger misfortune
36:09of judiciary.
36:11But this mind
36:13can be identified.
36:15In America you know
36:17the law of law
36:19and law versus weight.
36:21Everyone knew what the decision was.
36:23Here it is not only
36:25this.
36:27Here it is not only
36:29politicization of judiciary
36:31or polarization of judiciary.
36:33Both are there.
36:35You are so polarized.
36:37Justice Jaya Khan Afridi
36:39has one option
36:41that he should call
36:43a full court meeting.
36:45In a full court meeting
36:47you have an idea
36:49who is of which mind.
36:51But in a full court meeting
36:53there can be a discussion
36:55of agree to disagree.
36:57There can be a discussion
36:59of full court bench.
37:01But Jaya Afridi has a window
37:03of opportunity.
37:05The window of opportunity
37:07is that the Supreme Court
37:09normal cases,
37:11pending appeals,
37:13should be on the other side
37:15and in constitutional benches
37:17all these cases should run.
37:19So call a full court bench
37:21and decide
37:23about this ordinance
37:25rightly or wrongly.
37:27I want to ask you
37:29one thing.
37:31I want to ask you
37:33one thing.
37:35I want to ask you
37:37one thing.
37:39I want to ask you
37:41One theory in Islamabad
37:43is that before 8th February
37:45there was a thought
37:47of government, ruling parties,
37:49establishment that PTI should be destroyed.
37:51Then 8th February happened
37:53sweeping results came
37:55then 9th February, 10th February
37:57a lot had to be done.
37:59Then this thought was formed
38:01that the party should be controlled
38:03and how to make alternate leadership
38:05and do soft things
38:07in which the ultimate prize
38:09is that Imran Khan should not come out
38:11but there should be so many power centres
38:13in the party that
38:15neither the party can protest
38:17nor the party can do street movement
38:19and destroy the structure to a large extent.
38:21The luck is that
38:23small parties are getting small releases
38:25in their pockets
38:27but the ultimate step is
38:29Imran Khan coming out
38:31and if he comes out,
38:33you and I agree that
38:35all political parameters
38:37will change.
38:39So is this scheme
38:41successful that
38:43alternate power centres should be made
38:45and there are threats
38:47that if there is no protest,
38:49there should be a protest.
38:51The party is protesting
38:53but there is no meaningful impact.
38:55Has this been a strategic
38:57victory of the establishment
38:59and government
39:01or not yet?
39:03Look,
39:05it is a very simple thing.
39:07Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
39:09was arrested on 5 July 1977
39:11and then
39:13he was released
39:15and as a result of his release
39:17he realised that
39:19his massive support was not over.
39:21So he was arrested again
39:23and then we know what happened to him.
39:25As long as
39:27Bhutto was there,
39:29as long as he was there,
39:31no matter what
39:33groups were formed,
39:35it didn't matter.
39:37And even after that, it didn't matter
39:39because Bhutto was hanged
39:41and Bhutto's empathy escalated.
39:43Imran Khan is present here
39:45and in the presence of Imran Khan
39:47no cracks
39:49in Tehreek-e-Insaf
39:51can come.
39:53Because the day he will be released,
39:55everything will be over.
39:57But before he is released,
39:59I am asking
40:01in your opinion,
40:03has the party
40:05remained in this position
40:07that it can make a big protest movement
40:09that the government can overturn
40:11or compel the establishment
40:13to sit and talk with them?
40:15No,
40:17it hasn't remained.
40:19Look, there are two things.
40:21Firstly, in Pakistan,
40:23the movements are mostly run
40:25with the help of the establishment.
40:27I can say about the movement of MRD
40:29that it was a genuine movement
40:31and a genuine alliance.
40:33Secondly,
40:35the situation now,
40:37Tehreek-e-Insaf
40:39from April 2022
40:41has not been able to run
40:43any meaningful movement.
40:45In that, their organizational weaknesses
40:47are visible,
40:49there are extreme groups within them,
40:51there is a problem of taking
40:53superiority from each other
40:55and plus,
40:57there is an onslaught of
40:59terrorism on them.
41:01Tehreek-e-Insaf has not remained
41:03in this position.
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44:17The biggest debate in Islamabad today is whether there will be a deal or a soft deal.
44:21I don't have a deal, but I definitely feel that these decisions will be seen.
44:26Small reliefs should be given so that the party does not take such an aggressive strategy.
44:31And tell your chairman to keep his hands a little lighter.
44:34Because every deal has an ultimate objective.
44:37The ultimate objective of PTI or Khansak is to come out.
44:40And if they come out, then whatever the deal is,
44:44the mood of the road does not suit the government or the establishment at all.
44:49The whole game, the rules of the game will change.
44:52And I think this stability or continuity,
44:55more than constitutional reform, more than controlling justice,
44:59the government is free because Imran Khan is restricted.
45:03And I think if this status ultimately changes, then all bets are off.
45:08So I don't think there is a deal yet.
45:10There may be a soft deal, but not more than that.
45:13With your permission, goodbye.