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00:00Let's go to Washington, D.C.
00:02Sarah Zaiemi is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council Think Tank's North African Initiative.
00:08Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
00:11Thank you for having me.
00:13What's this visit all about for you?
00:15Well, it's clearly a very symbolic and emotional reconnection between the two allies, but let's
00:21put this in context.
00:23The Morocco which President Macron visited in 2018 is very different from the Morocco
00:30of today.
00:31The Morocco of today is very emboldened by the U.S. recognition of its sovereignty over
00:35Western Sahara, followed by the recognition of Spain that was the former colonizer of
00:42this space.
00:43Morocco is also at the forefront of African investment, especially in West Africa, with
00:49its newly launched Atlantic Initiative, allowing Sahel countries to have access through a harbor
00:56in Dakhla to the Atlantic Ocean, and further investments in all the continents.
01:03Many analysts even say that Morocco is replacing France in some of these countries.
01:09The France also of 2018 is very different from the France of today.
01:14We see a growingly receding influence in some of these countries in Africa, and the
01:20world of today is very different from the world of 2018.
01:24Now with all the multipolar order and the malign influence of some of the countries
01:29in this region, notably Iran, that's trying to create a new proxy in Western Sahara and
01:38trying to train Polisario militants there, but also Wagner Group in the Sahel, also the
01:46Chinese dragon and economic machine trying to invest there.
01:51So it's a different Morocco, it's a different France, and it's a different world order.
01:55You mentioned Sahara, Spain.
01:57There's the feeling that there's something transactional as well in this recognition
02:01of Western Sahara.
02:03We recognize your sovereignty over Western Sahara.
02:07How do you help us keep migrants from crossing the Mediterranean?
02:12That might be the headline, since the European Union seems very obsessed by that agenda of
02:19migration.
02:20But there are other more important things in terms of security.
02:24I think the transatlantic community is tired.
02:28There's a fatigue from this conflict.
02:30Everyone is ready to turn the page.
02:32There are already two big fronts that France and Spain and the U.S. are involved on, notably
02:39in Lebanon and Gaza, and then also on Ukraine.
02:43So no one needs a third front.
02:45No one needs a third conflict at the door.
02:47Yes, but for any European politician who wants to get reelected, it's the migration question
02:52that is tops right now, not the question of Gaza.
02:57Well, I think the security and the migration things are interwined and interlinked, because
03:03if you want to stabilize the Sahel and the Sahara and curb some of these migration flows,
03:10you need to invest in having stability in the Sahel and the Sahara, and hence the political
03:17will of some of these European countries to bring in investment, to bring in new alliances
03:23and fresh perceptions of how they've been dealing with North Africa, notably with Morocco.
03:30Morocco's economy has grown over the last six years, but its trade ties with France
03:34have also deepened in that time.
03:37And there is this sense that Emmanuel Macron wanted to have good relations with both Morocco
03:44and Algeria.
03:45Is that impossible?
03:47As I said, Morocco is changing and they are feeling like they are perceiving the world
03:53through the lens of Western Sahara.
03:55Now they have been diversifying their alliances and their partnerships and kind of distancing
04:01slowly themselves from France and having new, forging new partnerships with the UK, with
04:08the US, et cetera, with China as well.
04:12And so France wants a seat at the table, especially with Morocco having some huge infrastructure
04:20projects coming up ahead of hosting the World Cup in 2030, but also with its ambitious plan
04:28of the Atlantic partnership.
04:30So I feel that there is an opportunity there, a business opportunity, and France and French
04:36companies are aware of that and salivating for this market and also for this mediation
04:42that might grant them further markets within Western Africa and the Sahel.
04:48I ask the question again, Sarah, if you're the president of France, can you be friends
04:53with both Morocco and Algeria without one of the two being upset about it?
05:00Well, we have seen clearly that Algeria is receding behind Cold War borders, siding more
05:08with Russia and another axis, and distancing itself from some of these transatlantic countries.
05:16So I think in this current climate, Morocco seems like a more reliable and a country that's
05:23more in line with the values that France and its allies are trying to promote.
05:28So my short answer is that would be very challenging.
05:32Very challenging at this point.
05:33Sarah, one last question.
05:35The whole visa row, where France decided to push back against Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia
05:45over their refusal to take back those who needed to be deported after seeing their request
05:52to stay rejected.
05:55Is that really also behind now, the three-day state visit?
05:59Has that cleared the air?
06:00Has that issue been cleared up?
06:02For some, this is the most important issue.
06:05I'm sure it has been cleared up now that there is a new ambassador, someone who is, someone
06:11very close for, close with the royal palace, but also close with some of the spheres inside
06:18of France.
06:19So I think there has been a clear will and a roadmap of reconciliation, of clear reconciliation
06:26since July to now.
06:28For sure tonight, there are going to be some interesting discussions between the two partners.
06:33So looking forward to hear more about the outcomes of this and the announcement of some
06:38huge projects and partnerships between both countries.
06:41And France's interior minister, among those who are front and center for this three-day
06:47state visit.
06:48I want to thank you so much for being with us, Sara Zaimi from Washington.
06:53Thank you very much for having me.