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00:00Welcome to the programme. And we start then with the latest on the French election drama
00:06today. Over 200 candidates, most of them from the centre and from the left, have dropped
00:12out of the race for Parliament. The aim is to re-establish the so-called Republican Front
00:18and block the national rally from reaching power by ensuring the anti-far-right vote
00:24is not split. But in more than 100 constituencies, no candidate has stepped aside and left-wingers
00:32are now accusing some in the President's centrist bloc of not doing enough to keep
00:38Jordan Bardella and Marine Le Pen from high office. Oliver Farrie has this report.
00:44With the prospect of the far-right national rally getting an overall majority in the second
00:48round of France's legislative elections, other parties are resurrecting the so-called
00:53Republican Front. The election has thrown up more than 300 three- or four-way second-round
00:58run-offs. This has prompted left-wing and centrist parties to consider giving way to
01:03other candidates better placed to defeat the national rally. As of Monday night, more than
01:08180 candidates had withdrawn from races. Two-thirds of these were from the left-wing New Popular
01:13Front and one-third from Emmanuel Macron's Ensemble coalition. Prime Minister Gabriel
01:19Attal, likely to lose his job after only six months, said keeping the far-right out
01:23of government was the most important thing.
01:26Quite sincerely, the stakes are so high for the French. I'm secondary in all this. What
01:31I want is to avoid a national rally having an absolute majority, because I sincerely
01:36believe that would be catastrophic for the French, for our pensioners, for their savings.
01:42For national rally leader Jordan Bardella, the alliance intended to exclude the far-right
01:46is a sign the establishment is worried.
01:50I am not going to give any voting instructions, unlike Mr Macron and Mr Mélenchon. I believe
01:56that the French are intelligent, that they are old enough to decide for themselves. We
02:00are qualified today in 444 constituencies and for change, we must vote for the patriotic
02:06candidates of the national rally party.
02:08But the left-wing France Insoumise party says the president's coalition has not been clear
02:12enough on urging its third-place candidates to step aside, or advising supporters on who
02:17to vote for.
02:20As far as we're concerned, we applied a clear rule, in line with the principles we've always
02:25applied. It's not one vote for the national rally, not one more seat for the national
02:29rally. And we do hope that the Macronist camp will show the same clarity. And indeed, it's
02:34not the case, depending on who you speak to.
02:38289 seats are required for an overall majority. Failing that, parties will try to form a coalition
02:44similar to the one that has governed France for the past two years.
02:48Well, let's go live now to the streets of Paris. Our reporter Clovis Casali is out and
02:53about covering the national rally campaign. He's with me now. Clovis, there are just a
02:58few hours to go before those candidate lists are sealed, confirmed. What's the national
03:05rally up to at the moment?
03:06Well, all day here at the national rally headquarters, there have been meetings. We've seen Marine
03:13Le Pen as well as Jordan Bardella. His entourage telling us that he's having one-on-one meetings
03:20also to try to finalise deals, of course, maybe clinch some alliances, maybe attract
03:26some right-wing MPs or candidates who could join the national rally ultimately and try
03:34to form an alliance, get that outright majority in parliament that the national rally desperately
03:41needs. Of course, it's always easier to attract allies when you're leading in the polls and
03:47when you're leading after the first round of the legislative elections. At the national
03:52rally, the French far-right members we've been talking to here, very confident. And
03:57this morning, their historic leader, Marine Le Pen, was also. Let's take a listen to her
04:02on French radio, France Inter.
04:05When we have, say, 270 members of parliament, we'll need 19 more. We'll go to the others
04:11and ask them, are you prepared to join us for a new government, for a new politics?
04:17Yes or no? Are you prepared to give us a vote of confidence? Are you prepared to vote for
04:22the budget?
04:23Who are these others?
04:24Well, it's a few MPs, members of certain groups on the right, on the left, some from
04:31the Republicans, who have in the past shown themselves to be close to our views. And if
04:36at that time we have a majority, we will do what the voters have elected us to do.
04:46Marine Le Pen there, the leader of the national rally. Clovis still with me. Clovis, let's
04:50talk about substance. What kinds of issues will Le Pen's party be campaigning on in this
04:56final week now?
04:59Final week, final push before the second round of the election. And of course, the national
05:04rally will try to explain its vision for France, with its anti-immigration stance, as well
05:11as its desire, will to reform Europe, give less money to Europe, and at the same time,
05:18get just as much. Jordan Bardella stressing that it's possible if Europe cleans up its
05:24act as it needs to. Marine Le Pen and Jordan Bardella also again trying to soften their
05:31message publicly, change the party's image. They've been trying to do so for years, and
05:36it does seem to have worked, given the results in the first round of the election.
05:41The national rally, the French far right, basically saying, if you vote for the left-wing
05:47bloc, well, you'll allow Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the radical left leader, to become prime minister.
05:53He will cause chaos and insurrection in the country. At the same time, if you vote for
05:58the centrist bloc, well, you will be voting for President Macron's allies. President Macron
06:04accused by the French far right of doing very little for the French people, and not actually
06:09listening to the people's vote. According to Marine Le Pen, for instance, President
06:15Macron is doing all he can to prevent the French far right of getting into power.
06:22Mervis Kasali, thank you very much indeed. Well, I'm pleased to welcome now to the studio
06:27Christopher Weisberg. Hello to you. You are, well, you are a former MP. You were serving
06:34in the recently dissolved parliament for the Renaissance Party, for the president's party.
06:39You were representing Americans living abroad in North America, French people living abroad,
06:44excuse me, in North America. And I just want to explain briefly to our viewers the kind
06:49of rather unusual role you're playing in this election, because you are what's known
06:54as a substitute, which means that you are, if the MP who wins, and then they, for example,
07:01join the government, you would go in their place. It's a quirk of the system. I wanted
07:04to clarify that. But let's talk about the big story of the day. And that is candidates
07:10dropping out or indeed not dropping out to avoid splitting the vote and preventing the
07:14far right reaching power. Are enough people in your bloc, the centrist bloc, dropping out?
07:22Yeah, I think it's very clear. It's a no brainer. I know that some people like Edouard Philippe
07:27or Bruno Le Maire had, and I regret it, a more balanced approach, saying that it shouldn't be,
07:36they shouldn't vote either for the National Front or for La France Insoumise. But the official
07:43position from, called by the President himself and the Prime Minister was very clear. And it's
07:48a no brainer for me, either. It's we have to drop out to avoid the catastrophe of having
07:56Marine Le Pen and Jordan Bordelaire governing the country.
07:59Okay, so your view is very clear. There are people in your party who are in that third
08:03place in the first round, they should drop out. But it doesn't seem that across the board,
08:07everybody in your party agrees with you. I mean, I looked at the latest stats before we came on
08:11air just now. 127 candidates from the left, not from your bloc, have stood down, and just 75 from
08:20the presidential camp. So why are not more of your people within your party agreeing with you? Why are
08:28they staying in place, even though it's going to split the vote?
08:30I don't think there's that many. Of course, there are more people.
08:33There are 75.
08:34Because we're in less district, we're in power to stay and to keep up in the election,
08:39because we didn't win as many districts as the left did. But if you look, there was this morning,
08:49one of our ministers who was thinking of staying in the race finally dropped out.
08:54And I think that in most cases, almost every cases now, we are about to have candidates that
09:00withdraw in order to have this famous Front Républicain, which is the Republican front,
09:07the Democratic shield against the extreme right. So it seems that, from what you're saying, that
09:13the left is doing it more than us. But I think in every case that I've been looking for,
09:19almost everyone has decided to drop out.
09:23Okay. That said, though, both your prime minister, Gabrielle Attal, and the president, Emmanuel
09:29Macron, have warned during the election campaign of what they called extremes on both sides,
09:34extremes, of course, on the far right in the form of the national rally. But also,
09:38they talked about an extreme on the far left, figures like Jean-Luc Mélenchon.
09:44Is it really fair, in your view, to compare those two to suggest that they are somehow
09:51equal in their extremity, given the history of the national rally in France?
09:56No, I agree. And I always was very careful to not compare both extremes.
10:03But for the past two years, the extreme left and Jean-Luc Mélenchon and some of his troops
10:09have been very ambiguous about the role of democracy, very tough stances on
10:18just their personal behaviors in the institutions, trying to make a mess about everything,
10:26having very strong stances about what happened in Israel, and a very unclear message about
10:34anti-Semitism. You thought he lent into anti-Semitism a little?
10:37Well, some of them did. And I was able to express and say that I think most of the candidates in
10:44La France Insoumise are very respectable people who have different beliefs and different thoughts
10:51about politics than I do, but respect the essential values. But some of them, I'm sorry to
10:58say, have been extremely aggressive and had some anti-Semitic thoughts and sayings. It would be
11:08strange for your auditors to hear about that, but there were a few people that had anti-Semitic
11:15messages on Twitter that were very clear. Those people, for me, it would be very difficult to vote
11:21for them. So what I mean is that the message is clear. We have to drop out. Extreme left is not
11:28actually in capacity to win this election. Jean-Luc Mélenchon has no chances to become
11:35prime minister. So today, where we stand now, the absolute objective for us is to avoid an
11:42extreme right government. But when a week ago we were saying that the extreme left and the extreme
11:47right both didn't stand for the same values than we did, I could understand that. And lots of our
11:53constituents, when we went campaigning for the past 10 days, and many people, many people who are
11:59very respectable, were saying to us that they would be very dubious about voting for a candidate
12:08on the extreme left because of what they've been doing for the past two years.
12:13Right, but, you know, it's fascinating what you say there. And there are Jewish intellectuals in
12:19France who have sort of echoed that challenge, saying, of course, they know the history of the
12:24national rally in France. They know it's racist, anti-Semitic roots. They are, like you, not happy
12:30with some of the language of individuals from that far-left party, La France Insoumise.
12:34So what do voters do if they are in a constituency where they have a far-left LFI candidate on the
12:42one hand, the national rally on the other? Where do they go? Those people are politically
12:49homeless, aren't they? They should vote against the most likely scenario of next week, which is
12:55having an extreme right government because the National Front has an absolute majority. So they
13:01should vote against the extreme right for an extreme left candidate. Even if you think that
13:07candidate is anti-Semitic? And that's where I have a slightly different opinion, is that some of them,
13:16which have had racist talks, and there are just a few, but those, it would be, I would understand
13:24that, you know, it's hard for some people, for someone who's been attacked to vote for
13:30some of them. But it's very few exceptions. And in most of the cases, this question will not raise.
13:39There's lots more I want to ask you. But before I come back to you, I want to go to the headquarters
13:43of the Green Party now, actually, and speak to James Andre, our reporter who's standing by
13:48for us there. James, good to speak to you this afternoon. Can you tell us
13:53what's the latest with the Greens and indeed with that broader leftist alliance this Tuesday?
14:01Well, as you know, we're closing into the time limit to step down in various elections across
14:08France. And what we have here is that indeed, over 126 candidates from this left-wing alliance
14:14have stepped down over the past couple of days. That's bringing the total to 208. And yes, of
14:21course, what people are expecting here is to see more candidates from the Together bloc,
14:27the presidential bloc, to step down. Roughly 75 have done so at this stage. So earlier on,
14:32we were talking to Marine Tendelier, and I said, well, is it all done? And she said, well, no,
14:36you know, there is still some negotiating, some horse trading that's being done behind the scenes
14:42with some people having a tough job stepping down. She did say, you know, even personally,
14:46for a lot of candidates, it's difficult to just let go and step down. It's not an easy thing to
14:51do. And then saying also a lot of saying, right, yes, I will step down if such and such in another
14:55place also does step down. But Marine Tendelier, we spoke to, saying that she sees that there is
15:01a possibility of, a slim possibility, of indeed a left-wing majority in the upcoming Parliament
15:08after Sunday's elections. She was saying we don't want to raise expectations too high,
15:13but with a good campaign, we could get a good result.
15:16James, we know who the far-right candidate would be, should they do the best in this election.
15:28It's going to be Jordan Bardella. They've been very clear about that.
15:31On the left, we don't have that same clarity, do we?
15:37No, we don't. And indeed, what the left is talking about is a so-called third round. In a sense,
15:42they're saying that their decision is that the party, you know, there are four parties that
15:46compose this left-wing alliance. You have the Socialist Party, the Green Party, the Communists,
15:52and the France-unbowed hard-right party led by Jean-Luc Mélenchon. While they're saying whoever
15:58gets the largest amount of seats should be, you know, the Prime Minister should be chosen within
16:04the ranks of that specific party. Now, indeed, there is a debate that is planned on
16:12one of the channels here in France. We know that Jordan Bardella will be on that debate,
16:16Gabriel Attal as well. But when it comes to the left, well, the decision of the group was that
16:21it would be Marine Tendelier, the head of the Greens. But Jordan Bardella is refusing that
16:26debate and saying that he would like to debate with Jean-Luc Mélenchon. This is what Marine
16:31Tendelier had to say about that. Let's listen to her. From what I understand, Gabriel Attal
16:37isn't against this debate with me, but Jordan Bardella is against it with his entire being.
16:41Is he scared of us, of ecology, of women, all of the above? I don't know. I do know how they put
16:47their influence on a city, their good sides and their bad, their weaknesses. I know all of it,
16:52and I think that scares them. That's how it is. In democracies, we don't choose who we debate with.
16:56The format is imposed. You can also tell why they want to debate Jean-Luc Mélenchon.
17:01They want to elevate him because it serves their narrative.
17:04Indeed, Jordan Bardella wants to discuss with Jean-Luc Mélenchon as part of a strategy.
17:13Jean-Luc Mélenchon, despite getting 22% of the first round of the previous presidential election,
17:18is a very divisive figure here in France. A lot of moderate, left-leaning voters really don't want
17:25to see him in Matignon, the Prime Minister's palace. So, for now, the left-wing alliance
17:31is indeed sticking to its guns. And indeed, Marine Tendelier was telling me earlier, she said,
17:35you know, the decision is made. It will not be Jean-Luc Mélenchon. But still, this strategy
17:39is very clear in the extreme right camp. And Jordan Bardella, for now, has not accepted
17:46to debate with Marine Tendelier. James Andre, outside the headquarters of the Green Party,
17:51thanks very much indeed. Well, still with me in the studio is Christopher Weisberg. And look,
17:56I'd like to talk about your alliance, the centrist alliance. We've heard there about
18:01kind of the machinations on the left and on the right today. What's happened to the centre?
18:07You know, in your own vote in North America, you are ahead, but with a smaller margin than you were
18:14in the 2022 elections. But across the board, Ensemble, your bloc has been decimated. What's
18:21gone so wrong? Well, you know, it makes sense. We've been in power for seven years.
18:26You know, what usually happens, look at what's going to happen to the Tories in a few days from
18:30now. They're going to have an alternative from the left. And this is democracy. And what I think
18:39is terrible is that instead of having a very strong left alliance who could take over us,
18:46there is this extreme right front who could win. So, you know, we have, when you look at those
18:52elections, I was almost a little surprised that we did that well. You know, 20 percent,
18:58and in some cases, we are second in a lot of districts. And I don't, for me, the most
19:07important thing today is how do we avoid a disaster? You know, let me bluntly honest,
19:13we are here on a public funded channel. There are many chances that if the extreme right wins this
19:20election, this channel doesn't exist anymore. They want to privatize public media. They have
19:25said that before. And you imagine what happens then. You know, you have our Robert Murdoch,
19:32for your American and British listeners, is, we have one like him, Mr. Bolloré, who's been buying
19:41every channels, who's been trying to keep this coalition between the right and the extreme right
19:49for the past few days. Those are the things that matters. And clearly, you see the situation as
19:54grave. But if I may, you know, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the decision of your own
20:00leader of the president to call this snap early election. And I've said personally several times
20:07that I think it was it was a mistake. I think it was a mistake. I didn't understand why and how he
20:13could do this right after, you know, what was a loss, a political loss after the European elections.
20:21We are where we are. And, you know, I've always thought to myself that I will go until the end
20:28of this election to try to avoid a disaster. And this is our common responsibility, you know,
20:35saying that people from the left or people from our board are going to drop out because there is
20:42an ultimate threat in front of us. That's what's at stake.
20:46You sound to me, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you feel politically
20:49homeless now? Do you feel like, you know, you don't you're not happy with what the president,
20:53the leader of your party, the decision he's taken? Where does this leave you now as a former MP?
21:00I know exactly where I am. You know, I've never questioned. We had an immigration law about six
21:07months ago where in the first draft of the bill was completely fine with me. And at some point,
21:15because of the Senate's role, it went up to the right. And I didn't believe it anymore. And I
21:21didn't vote for this bill. You thought it became too far right? It was becoming too far right.
21:26And I was always very clear. I think that the left, the centre left, which I came from,
21:34should be stronger in this country. I think that Raphael Glucksmann did a very good campaign,
21:39stand for values. And I will do all my best to avoid having on one side, the extreme right,
21:45and on the other side, a left that is losing its identity. And the identity of the left is to
21:51govern. You know, they're talking about the Front Populaire. Front Populaire is the first time the
21:55left in the 1930s was able to govern France. And they did so because, of course, they had
22:02incredible social impact. But they were responsible to take power to govern a country.
22:10I don't believe in this strategy that, you know, the Labour adopted for a few years that,
22:16you know, was a dead end. And the one that's trying to push Jean-Luc Mélenchon.
22:22Just a final question for you. What do you think President Emmanuel Macron's legacy will be?
22:29Well, it will depend on what's happening on July 8th. If it's the extreme right, it will be hard
22:35to have a positive vision of what he did. But I think, and that's what most of the people in my
22:43district are telling me, that for the past seven years, we achieved a few great things. You know,
22:49France is economically better than it was eight years ago. Unemployment is lower than it was
22:58seven years ago. We have lots of investments coming to the country. There are plenty of
23:02things that have been positive. Now, in terms of legacy, hopefully, on July 8th, we can keep up
23:08with what's been good and give the next generation of leaders the possibility to do better things.
23:18Christopher Weisberg, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed. That
23:21was Christopher Weisberg, an outgoing MP in the parliament with the Renaissance Party
23:28and a candidate as well in this election. Thank you very much indeed.