This thought-provoking interview with Dr. PK Ghosh, a renowned Space Strategist and senior researcher, explores why Indian scientists have struggled to win a Nobel Prize in the field of science for the past 94 years. Dr. Ghosh shares his insights on the challenges Indian researchers face, the importance of international collaboration, and offers solutions on attracting top talent and enhancing India’s research ecosystem to produce Nobel-level achievements. Tune in for an insightful discussion that dives deep into India’s scientific future.
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00:00Why India has not really produced Nobel laureates in science?
00:08I would say particularly significant in India,
00:11where many of them are looking for their personal career advancement.
00:16They want an award.
00:17They want probably the Padma Shri or the Padma Bhushan space.
00:22But in every region in pure science,
00:25there is tremendous potential for India.
00:30We are excessively dependent on foreign technology,
00:34which we can also give up the capability.
00:37We built the cryo engines in space.
00:40Hello and welcome.
00:41You're watching One India.
00:43I'm your host, Riya.
00:45And today we are diving into a topic that is as intriguing as it is thought provoking.
00:53The elusive quest for a Nobel Prize in science by the Indian researchers.
00:59Despite the remarkable talent and innovative spirit in India,
01:03it has been sadly 94 years since an Indian scientist have won a Nobel Prize in science category.
01:11Question is, what are the factors behind this draw?
01:15And what can we do to change this narrative?
01:19So to shed some light on this vital issue, we have with us Dr. P.K. Ghosh,
01:24a distinguished space strategist and a senior researcher
01:29with extensive experience in strategic think tank.
01:33Dr. Ghosh, I welcome you and thank you for joining us on One India.
01:38It's my pleasure to be on your show and talk to all the white people that are seeing this.
01:47So I will not waste even a single moment because time is crucial here.
01:52My very first question to you would be,
01:55you know, the last Indian Nobel laureate was like nine, was long, long, long back, 94 years.
02:03And the prize went to Dr. C.V. Raman in the category physics,
02:08in the science category in 1930 for his work on scattering of light,
02:12which we know now as Raman effect.
02:15So what is taking so much of time for Indian science,
02:21the whole team or probably we can say the fraternity,
02:26the science fraternity or the scientist to get another Nobel Prize in the scientific category?
02:33Absolutely. The surprising thing, what you didn't mention was that the co-founder of Raman effect,
02:40K.S. Krishnan, he didn't get the Nobel Prize, but only the great scientist, Dr. C.V. Raman did.
02:50OK, now there are various issues, I think, that are interlinked to why India has not really produced
03:03Nobel laureates in science.
03:05And the list is really wide, but I'll just mention a few of them.
03:10And surprisingly, of course, some of the scientists who have gone out from there and studied from there of Indian origin
03:20who have managed to win Nobel Prize for science, of course, starting with Professor Hargobind Khurana.
03:29But that's separate, that will come to later.
03:31Now, let's begin why the first thing which comes to my mind is, do you know that we spend only about 0.6 to 0.8 percent of our GDP on science and research and development?
03:53And this is one of the lowest as far as BRICS countries are concerned.
03:58And imagine we are one of the stalwarts of the BRICS, one of the original countries.
04:05So in fact, our R&D investment on R&D has fallen from 0.82 to 0.66 from 2005 to 2023.
04:25So we start off with funding.
04:28That is low.
04:29Then what are the other things?
04:31We have got excessive bureaucracy and red tapism, which is well known.
04:38So you try and order a new equipment and it takes ages for you to get it.
04:44So that is one aspect.
04:47There are small, small things, not really small, but which affect the scientific ecosystem or the environment in which a scientist works.
04:58And these are dampers.
05:00So why don't we produce big scientists?
05:03OK, now we have probably the most smallest percentage of researchers compared to a vast 1.4 billion people.
05:17Now, that's really surprising.
05:20It is, I would say, I'm deeply saddened to give this, but that is the truth.
05:26The smallest number of people who do research in science.
05:31Apart from that, our entire ecosystem for scientific research is very weak.
05:39And this is, of course, being talked of ad nauseum.
05:42That is why many of our bright students who study science in India, they go abroad and do wonderfully.
05:52It's something which hurts me, but that is the truth.
05:55And of course, there are changes.
05:57I'm not saying that there are some positive changes, for example, in science.
06:02You've got ISRO and all that who are doing well.
06:05A lot of the talent is still there, space scientists, etc.
06:09But if you take the overall picture, it is, I would say, still rather bleak.
06:16Then there is lack of scientific direction as far as research is concerned.
06:24Many of us do research on outdated projects, on outdated topics, rather than things that will affect us immediately.
06:35Now, the other thing is, many of the senior people who are there, senior scientists who are there, often they fail to give the contortion to the juniors.
06:50Now, this is a common thing all over the world, in fact.
06:53But it is, I would say, particularly significant in India, where many of them are looking for their personal career advancement.
07:02They want an award.
07:03They want probably the Padma Shri or the Padma Bhushan.
07:07And they're looking for post-retirement benefits, when actually they should be looking at the institution and fostering the nascent talent which has come up.
07:20The other thing which strikes my mind is that dependence on foreign technology.
07:27We are excessively dependent on foreign technology, which we can also, we've got the capability.
07:33We built the cryo-engines in space.
07:36When it was denied to us, the TOT was denied, the cryo-engines were given, and so on and so forth.
07:42I mean, I can give a lot of more anecdotes, but that is, the main idea is this.
07:47And then, finally, I would also like to say that we believe a lot in mediocrity.
07:55There are so many extraneous reasons for us to choose a person, and we believe in numbers, not in quality.
08:04So, a research institution is quite happy to say, look, we have 10, and a certain period of time, 10 research publications.
08:15Why? We need one, and brilliant one.
08:20And the contrary to this is, it's ironic, we depend on individual brilliance.
08:26If one guy is good, then...
08:29So, all these factors, I think, go sort of against us.
08:35And we have got to look at these aspects if we want to really advance science in India.
08:43And we want to see more Nobel Prize winners.
08:49Of course, I must also mention that there is a slight bias in choosing of Nobel Prize winners.
08:58But people will say, hey, that's Sagaresh.
09:02You didn't get it, that's why you're saying this.
09:04So, I would leave it at that.
09:08Right, sir, right.
09:10Very truly said, and you have almost covered all the points, all the primary challenges that Indian researchers are currently facing.
09:18But building on that, I would want to ask you, there are a lot of collaborations that are going on, both globally and in the country as well.
09:27So, in your opinion, how crucial is this collaboration with international research organizations for elevating India's scientific profile at large?
09:39I think they are very important.
09:41You know, for example, there's enormous amount of work that is going on in coal fueling.
09:50I'm talking of nuclear.
09:52And in so many other fields, I'm obviously not aware of all the fields in which now we are trying to build up semiconductors, etc.
10:01That has, of course, got a commercial angle to it.
10:05But our effort, including climate change and that technology, the scientific backup to that, environmental science.
10:18So, all that is going on on a global level.
10:23Now, we got to have our Indian scientists who take part in this.
10:30It is not only a question of enhancing India's scientific stature, but it is a projection of our capability.
10:39And some of our brilliant people are coming out in these fields.
10:44The field is so vast that sometimes even I find it difficult to grasp.
10:49But a lot of the projects are there, and we have got to come up and collaborate on this for the advancement.
10:58And like I said, we have got some brilliant scientists in this.
11:04They can be part of all these projects.
11:07And I'm sure it will not only enhance their personal stature.
11:11Apart from that, of course, it will enhance our own stature in the scientific world.
11:19Right, sir. Right.
11:21And as you mentioned about, you know, the scientists who are working here, but we have seen more like a trend, I would say.
11:28Is it really a trend or is it more like a necessity for the scientists?
11:33Because they're choosing to work abroad rather than choosing here in India itself.
11:37And following to that, what measures can India take to attract and retain these top scientist talents here in the country itself?
11:47Like I said earlier, that a lot of our young talent still prefers to go abroad.
11:54And that is no secret. I mean, everybody knows this.
11:58I think there is a positive change. There are some scientists who are coming back.
12:03I wouldn't say so. They've realized the potential.
12:07They have realized that the ecosystem is becoming better.
12:11Now, what steps can we take to enhance the scientific environment in India?
12:17Get better peer reviewed journals in India.
12:23Get people to write for that. Give them better opportunities.
12:28As I mentioned, quantity is not necessarily, you know, equal to quality.
12:34They get and give inducements to the brightest minds and select people for their merit, not necessarily in others.
12:47I'm not, this is more of a social issue, actually.
12:50So while in others, we can have for empowerment of other people.
12:55But please choose the most brilliant guys who are there, who can support the scientific research in a particular area.
13:05Then leverage this public-private partnership.
13:10There's a lot of R&D going on in private companies. We can do that.
13:14And lastly, of course, if we strengthen our global collaboration, I think it will be a fantastic thing.
13:24And we are doing it inside, in space.
13:27I keep mentioning, look at space, how well we have, you know, traveled the distance that we have.
13:34We are now one of the biggest space powers.
13:38I'm not saying that we are the biggest, but we are definitely.
13:42ISRO is one of the best.
13:45So I think we got to take a leaf out of the entire system and say that, look, these are the methods.
13:53These are, it's all evident.
13:55The only thing we have got to follow it and follow it to the team.
13:58Right, sir. You just mentioned, in fact, I was about to bring the topic of space strategy itself.
14:04So how do you think the relationship between the space strategy and the scientific research
14:09impacts India's position in the global scientific arena?
14:13As you just mentioned, you know, the world is talking about ISRO.
14:17So how do you see both going on together?
14:20See, any advancement in space research is somehow or the other viewed as an advancement on mankind's
14:34achievements in space and aspirations in space.
14:38And I think ISRO has been in the forefront of this.
14:43In fact, now, not only that, they are encouraging a lot of these startups, private company startups,
14:52young, bright people who are coming out and they are guiding them as far as technology is concerned,
14:59because many of them are not capable of getting this technology.
15:03So they are hand-holding them.
15:05So we are really poised for a big leap.
15:08And not only that, I think ISRO has really been doing an excellent job because on one hand,
15:18they are that private partnerships they are encouraging.
15:24On the other hand, they are doing their own research.
15:27And on the third, the commercial wing is achieving all these launches, satellite launches, etc.
15:34If I go into that, you know, I'll keep talking about it.
15:39But we are all seeing it.
15:40It's there in the media.
15:42So I think advancement in science, and I'm not only talking of space, but in every region in pure science,
15:52there is tremendous potential for India.
15:58And the more we get into it, the more our stature will come up.
16:04The more we write in prestigious journals, do research, vaccines.
16:12We are a superpower as far as vaccine manufacture is concerned.
16:17But I think we still got to go some way in doing research in vaccine as far as that is concerned.
16:24We are producing them.
16:25So here again, there is, some people may not like me saying that, but there is a disconnect.
16:32It's not to say that we are not doing something, but we could do much more.
16:36That's all that I'm saying.
16:37So this was evident during COVID.
16:41So I think we can go a long way on this.
16:46Right.
16:47So, sir, if we talk about the current landscape and the current situation in the country,
16:54do you think there is any specific initiative by the science fraternity
17:00that you believe could enhance the research ecosystem in India
17:03and potentially probably lead to Nobel level discoveries?
17:08See, there is no particular scientific distinct.
17:11Like I told you, there are so many things, even in the field of nuclear science.
17:16Nucern is acting, then working, then the cold fusion and so many others.
17:22I mean, if I mention one, the others will say, hey, why did you mention all this thing?
17:27That is coming up.
17:28So I think across the spectrum, there is an entire horizon of scientific projects,
17:37research that needs to be done.
17:40And I would like to mention, though I didn't mention space, but like I said,
17:46all the others will say you didn't mention this particular subject or that particular subject
17:51or this particular project and not that.
17:55So all I would like to say is that the potential is vast.
18:00And in unimaginable subjects, the scientific research is going on.
18:08And it extends right from one end of the spectrum to the other,
18:12in pure science, applied science.
18:15And I think it is just for us to take in.
18:19But you've got to enhance the budgetary allocation to R&D, to science,
18:27all sorts of science research, probably build more research institutions
18:32and see that they are managed well.
18:34That's the other thing.
18:35Just not build them, but manage them.
18:37And then there is an entire horizon there.
18:40Right, sir.
18:40As you mentioned earlier also about the percentage,
18:43the contribution in the field of research and science in our GDP
18:48is very, very significantly low.
18:50So what, according to you, should be a percentage to at least match a level
18:55where the other countries, you know, who are producing or who are
18:59doing a lot of research or a lot of discoveries?
19:02So what should be that percentage if we are at such a significant low number of contribution?
19:081.5% of the GDP to start over.
19:13I've already given you the statistics earlier.
19:15Yes.
19:16We are below, you know, 1%.
19:20Some people say it's 1%.
19:22I gave you the statistics.
19:23Now, I would say at least 1.5% to start over.
19:28And then we can probably build it up a little more.
19:31But we must have at least 1.5% of the GDP on R&D and science.
19:38Right, sir.
19:39We are really running short on time, sir.
19:41So I'll take one last question from you.
19:45That we have seen that several countries have successfully, you know,
19:49produced a lot of Nobel laureates, especially in the science category.
19:54So what lessons India should take from their approaches to, you know,
20:01move in this direction so that in the coming years,
20:04we can see another Nobel from India in the science category?
20:09I've already said what are the measures.
20:12And it's very sad for me that some of our best, I mean, absolute brilliant minds like,
20:20you know, J.C. Bose, Meghnad Shah, Bhabha, and so many are even now down the line.
20:26And I mentioned of Krishnan's name, etc.
20:29So many others have not got the Nobel Prize.
20:32One thing is, of course, you know, and there comes the tricky bit.
20:38On one hand, there is aspiration to be recognized by the Western powers.
20:45And Nobel Prize was instituted by Alfred Nobel in 1901.
20:51And some or the other, it has, like I said, there are certain inherent Western biases.
20:58And more not towards science, Nobel, more towards the others.
21:03But it's there even in the science system.
21:06But at the same time, we must prove to the world that we are having the scientific temperament.
21:16We are having the capability.
21:19We are producing.
21:21We have got absolutely brilliant minds.
21:24And with a conducive atmosphere, you know, about 150 Jews have won this Nobel Prize.
21:36Well, of course, three or four have won it from Israel, I'm not saying.
21:39Now, they are also brilliant minds.
21:41So they have got it.
21:42I mean, hats off to them.
21:44So I think we've got to learn from them.
21:48I'm not giving it any political tinge at all.
21:51All that I'm saying is, let us go after merit.
21:55Let us encourage our youngsters.
21:59And I know and I believe that our youngsters can perform very well.
22:05Let us encourage them.
22:07And I'm sure you'll find that we will have, we won't have to wait long for another Nobel Prize.
22:15Absolutely, sir.
22:16Absolutely.
22:16And as you said, rightfully said, you know, that now it's high time to probably focus
22:25more on the quality instead of quantity, the number of research that we do.
22:29Instead, we should do one brilliant research that can lead us to the next Nobel.
22:37Dr. Ghosh, thank you so very much for your insightful responses today and for
22:42joining us here on One India and talking to us.
22:46And all I can say that as we continue to foster a culture of innovation and collaboration,
22:52we can hope that very soon, one day we will celebrate together
22:57another Indian Nobel laureate in science.
23:01Thank you for joining us.
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