The event builds off of Variety’s existing “Doc Dreams” franchise, a video series highlighting the filmmakers behind the year’s leading documentaries. Previous “Doc Dreams” participants include the filmmakers behind “Free Solo,” “Fire of Love,” “The Vow,” “The Rescue,” “Being Mary Tyler Moore” and many more.
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00:00So, I wanted to talk about the origins of each film and Irene, I wanted to talk to you
00:20first about that.
00:21I read that your film, just in case you haven't seen I Am Celine Dion, it's about the
00:29Celine and her struggle with a life-altering illness called Stiff Person's Disease, but
00:36what I read was that you didn't even know that she had this illness when you signed
00:40on to do the project, but you knew that she had something that she wanted to reveal or
00:46talk to her fans about.
00:48Can you talk about signing on to a project and not even knowing, not knowing what you're
00:52getting into?
00:53Yeah, well, I definitely did not know what I was getting into, in fact, I was preparing
00:59and feeling quite ill-prepared to make a documentary about a celebrity, which I've never done,
01:04and to make a concert movie, I just was like, but I was so intrigued and encouraged by Celine
01:13herself when we had met and talked through the idea of a film, but I actually didn't
01:19know she was sick, but I actually didn't know that she had something to reveal, that was
01:23not, and I wouldn't say that was the purpose of her doing the film, I think she was ready
01:29to spend the amount of time that I think a good biography, a thorough biography with
01:38a living subject would offer, and it was because, like so many other musicians, she was at home
01:45during the pandemic, so I just thought that was the reason.
01:48I thought, well, she's not on tour right now, but when she goes back on tour or returns
01:52to her residency, she will.
01:55So it wasn't until after I had signed on to make the film that I learned about it and
02:03her manager called me and just said, look, I have to talk to you about something that's
02:07pretty important, and so as much as I was stunned, I really, within a couple of minutes,
02:17my documentary brain clicked in and I just said, okay, well, I can do this, I can put
02:24one foot in front of the other here and just be with her this year.
02:28She didn't have a diagnosis at that time, so.
02:31Okay.
02:32Karla, we spoke before Frida premiered at Sundance earlier this year.
02:38You explained that you had this deep personal connection with Frida Kahlo when you were
02:43growing up.
02:44Can you talk about that and what inspired you to make this doc now?
02:50Yeah, so I discovered Frida when I was probably 19 or 20, and I think a lot of women get really
02:58obsessed with her around that age, but I saw a painting of hers where she's standing in
03:05between the United States and Mexico and having very kind of like conflicting experiences
03:12in the United States and really romanticizing her home because she spent three years living
03:18in the United States with her husband.
03:21And I was a new immigrant then, and I just saw my own kind of reflections and thoughts
03:26reflected in her self-portrait.
03:29And so that was my entryway into her art, and then as I had different experiences as
03:37a woman in the next two decades, I always find myself attracted and finding comfort,
03:44finding, in a way, refuge and catharsis by just looking at her paintings and being grateful
03:51to her for kind of exposing herself and exposing her most intimate feelings to the public through
03:58her paintings.
04:01It's quite sad to think about this film kind of like taking new urgency now because, I
04:12mean, partly because my team is made out of immigrants, first generation, second generation
04:17Latinx, and I think the immigrant community here in the United States is really scared
04:23about what's going to happen and the threats that we're experiencing and just how we've
04:27been talked about in the last few years.
04:32But also Frida's experience as a woman, I think that she's become such a symbol of female
04:39empowerment because she had the courage to just really show herself, to kind of like
04:45even show physically her body and kind of say to herself, my feelings, my experiences,
04:53my personal experiences are important to talk about.
04:58And that's something that I think we are even more reminded of, of how the personal is political
05:06and how much courage it takes to just say, you know, we are important.
05:14So it's been interesting, the last week and a half to think about.
05:19To think about that, like she's always considered ahead of her time, but she's really not.
05:26Because society hasn't changed much.
05:28I had to commit forgery and grand larceny in order to get a ticket to the concert.
05:36If you haven't seen the film, when you do, you'll see that the very concert that we're
05:41speaking about is a central part of the film.
05:45It's a concert that took place on Thanksgiving night, 1974, when John Lennon joined Elton
05:52John on stage at Madison Square Garden and it turned out to be the last, not only did
05:58it turn out to be the night that John Lennon and Yoko Ono reunited and conceived Sean,
06:05but it turned out to be the night that, the last night that John Lennon ever performed
06:10in public.
06:11So it was very meaningful in very many ways and it was very meaningful to me as a 13-year-old
06:18coming of age.
06:20You can imagine Elton came out on stage on the shoulders of two loincloth bodybuilders
06:26and was wearing six-inch heels and a gigantic boa and I was like, what?
06:34Who knew this world existed and it blew my mind musically, aesthetically, in all sorts
06:39of ways.
06:40So carrying that kind of with me, when I had the opportunity, when I met David Furnish,
06:48with whom I co-directed the film, and had the opportunity to make the movie, I laughed
06:52at it.
06:53It was, you know, and maybe the only film I've ever done where I was familiar, where
07:00I had this kind of personal connection, always an interest, but I never made a film about
07:07somebody who I was a, you know, a stan of and there I was.
07:12So there you go.
07:14Well, I wanted to ask each of you about making a documentary about a well, well-known subject.
07:20I mean, Frida and Elton John have been, there's been fiction films made about both of them.
07:27There's multiple documentaries.
07:30I'm wondering if, I want each of you to talk about how you approach the construction and
07:35like the ultimate framing of the film so that it feels unique and revelatory to audiences.
07:42Can you talk about how you approach that?
07:46I think it was, I mean, the vision of telling Frida's story by actually giving her the mic
07:54because for the people that haven't seen the film, it's all through her own words.
08:00Her voice was never recorded, but she left a very rich testimony of her experiences in
08:08letters and her diary and some essays.
08:12So what you hear in the documentary is definitely, it comes from that material.
08:18And it was that idea that, you know, when she popped into my mind, like about three
08:23years ago, and I went back to the books that I had read when I was young, I saw enough
08:30fragments of her voice that I saw the possibility that she could tell some of her story at least.
08:38And so the idea of telling this story in first person narrative came to me.
08:43And then the second question was, wow, how come nobody had thought of this before?
08:51I'm sure people have, but then I was just like, oh, it's really urgent that maybe I
08:55need to do it and I need to do it now before somebody beats me to it.
09:01And so that was, I think that was a uniqueness of that possibility.
09:06And the beautiful thing that we discovered in the research when we collected all of her
09:11writings was that she did not want to let go of the mic, that she could really tell
09:18all of her story.
09:20But we also used the voices of people that knew her really well.
09:25So that you could just really get a very present, you know, this is kind of happening in real
09:31life understanding of a woman's spirit, but to try to get into her mind.
09:38So that was our approach.
09:39And then, and then obviously her paintings are so autobiographical and so connected.
09:44They're, you know, they're so magical and in a way surrealist, but they're so connected
09:50to her emotional reality that we wanted to use those paintings as another type of narration,
09:57as a different expression of her voice as well.
10:00So everything through her point of view.
10:02I'm going to get to the paintings, but Irene.
10:07So I am the daughter of two deaf parents and growing up, I think I would call myself, I
10:14was like musically agnostic.
10:15I also was a big Elton fan, but that's because I had a big brother.
10:19So I just listened to what my big brother listened to all the time.
10:22And so when I got the opportunity, when I even just got the original call about Celine,
10:30by that point in my life, I had started developing my own tastes in music and my own biases,
10:37but I didn't grow up with pop music or folk music or classical music that most kids in
10:41the seventies would have.
10:43So I really didn't have a taste for Celine's music.
10:48I wasn't that into pop music at all.
10:51And I had just made a film about Beethoven when I got this call.
10:57So I was really engaged in music, but actually it was the pop-ness of her music and the fact
11:05that she was so public and had been in the public eye for so long that I was a bit hesitant
11:11because as I said before, I already felt ill-equipped, but then I thought, okay, if I do this, first
11:17of all, what an experience as an artist to make a film about another artist.
11:21I mean, that's what all three of us have done, right?
11:23So I thought, how can I pass this up?
11:26So I basically wanted to be surprised.
11:29I could already tell that Celine had great human qualities.
11:34She was just very kind and friendly with me and accessible.
11:39So what I did was we got 600 hours.
11:43I was kind of curious about your film too, with all the archives, how you accessed those
11:47because we got 600 hours just from Celine.
11:52So I didn't even use an archivist.
11:54I just used her archivist and she gave us everything.
11:58And my editor, who's French-Canadian and could understand everything, watched 35 years, 40
12:06years of archives.
12:08So I had him look through that and I had my French producer, my Parisian-French producer
12:15look through things.
12:17And then I asked them to show me the best of the best.
12:21I wanted to start there.
12:23And then what I decided was not to read anything about Celine, not to watch anything that had
12:29been done about her, because honestly, I was afraid I wouldn't like her as much if I did.
12:35Because I just wanted to take it fresh.
12:39And I think that really was really good synergy with the one thing she asked of me.
12:46And she didn't ask this like, will you do this for me?
12:49It was more of a question about the craft of documentary filmmaking.
12:53She said, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to make
12:59a film that's just in my voice?
13:03There's no one else talking about Celine.
13:06It's just me talking about Celine.
13:09And I said, is it possible?
13:11Yes, it's absolutely possible.
13:13I mean, Celine, that's my dream.
13:16But it's going to be a lot harder for you because I only have you to rely on.
13:24And I told her, I'm not going out there looking for anything about you.
13:29I'm not looking for the best person to talk about your music or your family.
13:33So she said, well, Irene, I have the time.
13:36We're here.
13:37And we spent the whole year in her house.
13:41We left the house twice.
13:43Yeah.
13:44And I also realized it was also my, it's always my dream to make a film as verite as possible.
13:52My cinematographer, Nick Midwig, and I have worked together on six films together.
13:56And he is just mouse-like.
13:58He just, he's there and he moves around, but he never impacts the scene.
14:04And so we really got to approach her, I think, in the way we wanted.
14:09And like I said, I realized it really was the one thing she wanted.
14:14It wasn't so much to make the film this way or that way, but she just didn't want other
14:18people talking about her.
14:20I think she was a bit sensitive to a whole lifetime of people opining.
14:24And frankly, she wasn't, it wasn't always positive.
14:27So who could blame her?
14:28You know?
14:29Yeah.
14:30R.J.?
14:31The question is, how do we make it feel unique to audiences?
14:40Well, I think with every film, it's a question of what the themes are that you're exploring
14:46and what is it that is making this a unique piece of cinema.
14:51With this film, we realized very early on.
14:56In fact, the day David and I met, he told me he was thinking about doing a film about
15:01Elton's final months on the road.
15:03And I told him that I had always thought that the first five years of Elton's career would
15:09make a great film and that perhaps there was a way to have the final months of Elton on
15:20the road serve as the spine and the nervous system around that spine would be those first
15:25five years.
15:26And the reason they worked so well together, it seemed to me, was that each of them culminated
15:33in a monumental life-changing decision.
15:38Elton was retiring after a lifetime, what I call the last great addiction of his life,
15:43a lifetime of touring in order and in context of the fact that he was a man in his 70s who
15:51had young children and he didn't want to miss their childhood anymore.
15:56He wanted to spend whatever remaining time he has left and he hopes it's decades, but
16:02he wanted to be able to spend them focused around his family.
16:07And at the end of those first five years, which were a remarkable period of Elton released
16:1613 albums in five years, seven of them went to number one.
16:19He kind of filled the gap that was created by the breakup of the Beatles and the end
16:29of the 1960s.
16:30I mean, it was, there was a huge void in pop music and Elton John came along and filled
16:36it in an insane way.
16:39I mean, he was, he was, it's hard to fathom, you know, he, it was times were different,
16:46but he was Taylor-esque in his level of success.
16:52And at the end of this period, during which he was also deeply unhappy, he decided to
16:58come out to Rolling Stone Magazine and this is 1976 and to come out at that time was literally
17:06to risk his career.
17:09And as you'll see in the film, he, you know, his albums were burned.
17:13It was a, it was a risk, but it was necessary for him.
17:18So here are two monumental decisions that resonate with each other.
17:22One that takes place in 1976, one that takes place in 2022, and suddenly you have a structure
17:29for a film that you can work with.
17:31And then to tie it all together, we used a similar kind of solution.
17:39Elton had written his autobiography several years ago, and we found the tapes that, of
17:45the conversations that he and his best friend who co-wrote the book with him, Alexis Pedritus,
17:53their conversations where Elton told Alexis his life story.
17:57And they were incredibly intimate because he was speaking with one of his best friends.
18:02And to use those instead of, you know, we're always trying to be as intentional as possible
18:07with interviews and not just assume a talking head is a way to go.
18:15And it's what I admire about both of your films is that the notion of the central interview
18:22or the central voice is re-imagined and it's so exciting.
18:26There's so many things we can do now.
18:28And we tried to do the same with Elton and the narration, if you will, for the film or
18:33the central interview is really that conversation throughout the film.
18:38So that's kind of how we built it.
18:40Well, I want to talk about talking heads.
18:43You know, I saw the Elton John doc and the Martha doc you did for Netflix, Back to Back.
18:49And I noticed that the animation used in both films is similar.
18:52And also the talking heads, you don't, it's audio.
18:56You don't, there's no, you don't see them.
19:00Can you talk about the decision to, you know, it's sort of become a thing to not show talking
19:05heads.
19:06Well, can you talk about, you know, just the audio part.
19:14I've been curious about that.
19:16With Martha Stewart, we, Martha is the only talking head in the film.
19:21And this was, this was accomplished through process.
19:26We started with multiple talking heads.
19:30As I say, we're always trying to be as intentional as possible.
19:34So I don't mind, I don't mind talking heads.
19:37I just want to know why it's there and what it's doing.
19:39I don't want to, you know, I say somewhat facetiously, but not untruthfully to the editors.
19:46What's, you know, there's no talking heads in The Godfather.
19:50Why would we have talking heads in our film?
19:52And so we go from there and we have a conversation.
19:56And in the case of Martha, we were trying things, but the talking heads were not saying
20:05anything, you know, filmically.
20:11And as soon as we pulled the talking heads out and Martha was at the center, all of a
20:16sudden, here's a woman whose life story has been told so many times, but never by her.
20:21And here's also a woman who's kind of an unreliable narrator in the best sense, you
20:27know, in the most intriguing way possible.
20:29And suddenly that becomes centered.
20:32So her character leaps off the screen in ways it wasn't when it was just part of this kind
20:37of, you know, muck of a lot of, a lot of talking heads.
20:43She's privileged, but what she does with that privilege is what intrigues us.
20:49And that's the Martha Stewart story, isn't it?
20:52So it all resonates.
20:53And then, as you know, she goes to prison for being an unreliable narrator.
20:58So that's interesting.
21:00So it all fit together in a really exciting way.
21:04And then with Elton, again, we had this opportunity.
21:08So it's just part of the, you know, I'm always saying this is what...
21:14Every time I watch somebody's film, they're pushing the boundaries, exploring new form,
21:20being intentional, not taking things for granted.
21:24It's why I admired both of your films so much.
21:28It's new.
21:29You learn so much.
21:30You see what we can do.
21:31And, you know, I keep saying it's like, for me, this time we're in is like the 70s was
21:36for narrative film.
21:38So much is being explored in documentary.
21:41So much is new.
21:42So much is exciting.
21:45And this is one example of what I see and is inspiring.
21:52Well, Carla, I mean, animating Kahlo's paintings was very...
21:58I thought it was beautiful, really, and it did help to tell her story.
22:04But I'm wondering if there was any anxiety or hesitation to take her paintings and reimagine
22:13them in terms of animation, because she's so revered.
22:17And those paintings are, you know, nobody wants them touched.
22:19So can you talk about that decision?
22:21Sure.
22:22I wouldn't say hesitation, but a lot of nervousness to do that.
22:29Before I answer, I want to say that your decision really allowed me to see the highlights of
22:35when she was really a non-reliable narrator in really amazing ways of her talking to you
22:43in the interview.
22:44And I watched your whole film thinking, oh, my God, was she nervous about touching Frida's
22:51Like what boldness to do it.
22:53And yet you revealed, somehow you even revealed more, right?
23:01I mean, I think that you're right.
23:03I mean, I think that it's intention is really important, like why you seem to play with
23:08the form.
23:10And that's how I try to approach either the films that I've edited or this film, my directorial
23:18debut.
23:20You know, you have to be, you have to try like bold decisions to see if it gives you
23:25more depth into revealing of character.
23:28And with Frida, I remember telling my kids really early on, I told them like, I'm making
23:32a really risky, bold decision.
23:35And they said, why, what are you doing?
23:37And I said, animating Frida's heart, and they didn't get it.
23:41And then I sat them down, I said, you know, it's like Star Wars, that a world you loved,
23:47and they changed the rules of Star Wars.
23:50And they were like, aha, it's very risky.
23:52But it was, you know, also with animation, you have to make those decisions early on
23:57because they affect the budget and your timing so much.
24:02But it was just so clear that, you know, the whole vision and focus of our film was to
24:10really present Frida's point of view as much as possible, and to really be as intimate
24:16as possible.
24:17And so I, you know, I mean, I've been living with her paintings for so long.
24:23And at every opportunity that I get to see a painting, you know, in real life, like I've
24:28gone to those museums, and I've been able to have a conversation not only with her painting,
24:33but you know, visiting museums is something that is really important to me.
24:38And that conversation that you can have in front of a painting, or even if you're looking
24:42at it in a book, is such a different experience than watching a film.
24:47A film is such a different art form that moves, like you're being carried by a story moving
24:54forward.
24:55So for me, animation just really made a lot of sense to bring those paintings into that
25:00timeline of a film, and to bring it into that cinematic space, while preserving that type
25:07of conversation that we can have with art, that we can have with painting.
25:12And, you know, literally, at the very beginning, I wanted to have that literal, for the audience
25:18to have that kind of like literal experience of actually physically diving into her internal
25:24world.
25:25And I always thought about it as like, okay, there's the pool of Frida's emotions.
25:30A lot of times that pool is very bloody.
25:33And I really want the audience to kind of jump in, and for the film to guide them through
25:38those different emotions, as they're hearing, you know, what's happening in the scene, or
25:43what's happening in the sequence.
25:46So, you know, as the creators of this film, had the power to highlight very specific things
25:54in the paintings, and to, again, use it as a type of narration for the film.
25:59Yeah.
26:00I mean, I really appreciated them.
26:02Well, I'm going to, I want, this is a question for all three of you.
26:06So, close to nine years ago, Asif Kapadia won an Oscar for Amy, a documentary about
26:12Amy Winehouse.
26:14No one at the time had much to say about it being a celebrity documentary.
26:19But now we live in a time that feels like, you know, the only doc filmmakers who are
26:24making money in this space are making docs about true crime, sports, cults, or celebrities.
26:32So, in the last few years, there's been so many celebrity docs made, and some are produced
26:37by celebrities, and some aren't.
26:40But it's led to criticism that these celebrity docs are infomercial.
26:45So, I'm wondering how you feel about this notion that was just brought up, that celebrity
26:51docs are not real documentaries.
26:53What is your response to that?
26:55You want to start, RJ?
26:56I'm happy to.
27:01I mean, I'll start by saying, with love, a balderdash.
27:09But, and why I'll say that is because, you know, we're working in a tradition here.
27:16Some of the greatest pieces of documentary cinema are what I guess you would call
27:24celebrity documentaries.
27:26Amy is one of them.
27:27So is Don't Look Back, the great D.A. Pennebaker film about Bob Dylan.
27:32Bob Dylan was a celebrity.
27:34So is Give Me Shelter, the great Maisel's brother film about the Rolling Stones.
27:40The Rolling Stones are celebrities.
27:41So, right away, we know that there isn't something inherently off about celebrity filmmaking,
27:49right?
27:50Because we know that there are these great films, and these are the films that inspired
27:54so many of us to get into documentary filmmaking and really propelled the American documentary
28:01movement in the 1960s and the cinema verite movement that, you know, is part of the rich
28:10tradition that we're all working in.
28:13The business is complicated, and in the last few years, because of the media business,
28:22we've lost a lot of buyers.
28:25It's made it tougher than it was when we had Showtime, and we had CNN for Real, and
28:31we had other places.
28:36Discovery was making premium documentaries and supporting them.
28:40And the other buyers that are still around, HBO is different than it is now, the other
28:50buyers that are still around had different profiles, and there was, you know, the boom
28:55was still going on in all aspects of the industry, and so there was a lot of opportunity.
29:05And that's changed, so there's been consolidation.
29:07And, you know, I want to caution people to not be too conclusive, you know?
29:14This is the business.
29:16These things happen.
29:18But I will say, it's so much healthier now, I hate to use the phrase when I, you know,
29:26sound like an old guy when I say, but in 1992, when we did The War Room, you could count
29:32the number of career documentarians on two hands.
29:36People, every film was a different business model.
29:39There was no pipeline.
29:41Thank God there was Sheilan Evans and HBO who kept this whole thing going for a long
29:45time.
29:45Thank God there was POV and PBS, but, you know, there's an industry now, and there
29:53are pathways.
29:54So before we start kind of ruling out what's real and what isn't, I'm all in favor of
30:01media literacy and knowing what you're getting, and if you're looking at something that's
30:06an advertisement, understanding, yeah, understand that it's an advertisement.
30:10But this is a subgenre of documentary that has resulted in some great films and films
30:17that we're proud of our films.
30:19We think they stand for something much more, and I'll point to a number of different
30:24films as, you know, so that's kind of, believe me, I'm happy to go on.
30:32But that's, you know, those are my headline responses to the idea that if there's a
30:38famous person in the middle of your film as a subject, you know, listen, what's Maestro?
30:48That's a pretty great film.
30:49I didn't hear anybody saying, why is he making a film about a famous person?
30:53Lenny Bernstein was as famous as you could be, right?
30:56But we don't have a problem with that.
30:59Johnny Cash was famous.
31:00Nobody complained about that feature film.
31:02Why are we looking at documentaries differently?
31:06Which is another thing.
31:07If I were to go on, we could talk more about, but I will cede the floor.
31:12Well, you know, I live in Portland, Oregon.
31:14It's not exactly the epicenter of documentary craft.
31:19We have a lot of animators and writers out there, but I can attest the good news is I
31:25would say you can make a living making films that are not in those genres.
31:31I mean, the film I made before Celine was about trees.
31:34It was called Trees.
31:36And well, it was really about the people who are obsessed with trees.
31:40But so I also really think where the magic occurs in any of these biographical pictures,
31:47whether they're famous or not famous, but if they are a public figure, the real magic
31:53is what R.J. Cutler makes of Elton John.
31:56It's what you make of Frida.
31:59And I think it's so bold what you did with the animation, and it's so spot on because
32:06I feel like you had every right to do it because you are an artist.
32:10It is reminding everyone these are all subjective.
32:15Observational pieces about another person and the filmmaker is a person, too, and
32:21cinematic art.
32:22You're you're making just like real movies.
32:25Yeah, right.
32:26Yeah.
32:27Just like real movies.
32:29So, you know, I think that I, for one, you know, am grateful that I was able to throw
32:39myself into a completely different world of celebrity.
32:43I managed to I think because of the time in Celine's life where she was sick, but also
32:49it was the pandemic and she wasn't on the road.
32:52Um, I just had this tremendous opportunity and I can't say I want to do another celebrity
32:59documentary again.
33:00It's not that I wouldn't want to, but I want I was talking with John earlier about
33:05wanting to do something about owls next, you know, like I'm just my I'm just hopelessly
33:09curious.
33:10And I think what's interesting is what you make of Frida Kahlo, what I make of Celine
33:16and what you made of Martha and all of the other profiles.
33:19You know, it's just I think there's a real synergy there.
33:22And I think what's also really interesting is the larger someone's body of work is, the
33:29more you can appreciate that that was RJ's take.
33:33Of course, you know, on Elton having had not too far distant past, having had a narrative,
33:40you know, but it was like this one part of his life.
33:42So I am I really, I really enjoy seeing these biographical pieces, particularly if I know
33:51the filmmaker or I've seen something else.
33:54Yeah.
33:56What can I say after both of you?
33:59I mean, so I, you know, it's been really interesting because I keep being introduced
34:05as like first time filmmaker with Frida.
34:08It is my directorial debut, but I've actually been on this business for quite a while.
34:13So I do remember where like all the funding for films were only through Independent and
34:19PBS.
34:20So I was able to kind of like witness the boom and I would say maybe it was really like
34:27a balloon.
34:28Like I suddenly saw all these like new direct really young directors that were making their
34:33first film and everybody was expecting to like make a lot of money by selling them at
34:39Sundance.
34:41And I think that, you know, obviously I wish there was more financing for all types of
34:47documentaries.
34:48There's definitely, you know, I think I wouldn't say a mandate, but a desire from buyers to
34:56get the celebrity film or to get the true crime film.
35:00What I will say is that, you know, again, it is the cinematic expression that you're
35:05bringing to a film.
35:07I do find a lot of biographical films that I might not get into.
35:12They're just kind of like a telling of what happened in somebody's life.
35:16And I find, you know, like both of your films when, you know, when we go into somebody in
35:23a profile or somebody's, you know, life story as a window into really understanding bigger,
35:31you know, society issues or dynamics or, you know, or experiences of women, which is the
35:38way that I approach Frida.
35:40You know, for us, Frida was in a film about not so much about only Frida, but like it
35:47was about a woman who chose not to contain her voice.
35:51And we always talked about that theme, like that was our cinematic central theme for the
35:56film.
35:57So, you know, like RJ say, I mean, there's so many amazing documentaries, not all celebrity
36:03documentaries are great, but there's amazing pieces of art that have been done around important
36:09figures in our history.
36:10And I think that, you know, when those figures really give us a reflection of ourselves and
36:16make us think about how, you know, we act as humans, how our society acts like that,
36:22those films become super, super interesting.
36:24Yeah.
36:25I mean, the Elton John film isn't about a celebrity.
36:27It's about mortality.
36:29And the Billie Eilish film wasn't about a celebrity.
36:33It was about family.
36:35And the Martha film is about American womanhood.
36:38And you've just described the themes of the court.
36:40That's what, so again, debates happen in the press.
36:46And we love that there's a vital press, by the way.
36:4930 years ago, there was no vital press.
36:51There were no awards.
36:52There was no, you know, and so we've matured.
36:54And this is part of what, when an art form matures, these kinds of things get discussed.
37:01But we want to always honor our history and, you know, and aspire to, you know,
37:09continuing to make these films as, and there are so many sources for inspiration, for subject
37:18matter.
37:18And so there you go.
37:22Well, I mean, the Martha film has been in the headlines for a few weeks now.
37:26She criticized the film because she didn't like some camera angles.
37:31Talk about a PR plan, huh?
37:33Yeah, yeah.
37:37But what I wanted to ask you was, she said there was like a collaboration clause in the
37:40contract.
37:41And I'm wondering if that's true when it comes to celebrities.
37:45Like, is there a collaboration clause?
37:48And do you always, like the two of you, did you have final, I know you did final cut,
37:53but Irene, did you have final cut as well?
37:55Well, for those of you who have seen the film, there's first of all, no way I never
38:00would have shown her this film, regardless of whether there was a final cut clause or
38:05not.
38:05And that is because Celine nearly died while I was filming her and never asked me to see
38:13the raw footage.
38:14I thought maybe just she might want to see what it looked like because she has these
38:18episodes once a year, maybe.
38:21And so I think that the focus on final cut or not final cut for me was never really an
38:31issue because from the get go, I saw how hands off she was.
38:35I even like sometimes tried to engage her like artist to artist, like, oh, I think I
38:39found my composer.
38:40And she'd be like, oh, that's wonderful.
38:43And then she wouldn't ask me anything more.
38:45And she just said, whatever you think, Irene, whatever you think.
38:48And so I never felt threatened by it.
38:52I didn't start the film film back on my heels.
38:55But I do think it takes an exceptional subject who can do that.
39:00And I can't speak to Martha or Elton.
39:03I can't speak to the others.
39:04But in the case with Celine, Frida's ghost.
39:09But I think that even if you do have final cut.
39:15Even if you have a final cut about a music, a music, sorry, about a documentary, about
39:22a musician, there are still ways for that musician if she doesn't care for that part
39:28in the film, there's I think I just don't want you to I don't want to license that song
39:33anymore.
39:34And so suddenly the scene falls apart because it was based on an anecdote about that song
39:42or, you know, there are ways.
39:43And I think it's not all that difficult or different rather than working with everyday
39:50normal people, so to speak, who do not have power and wealth and influence and a reputation
39:58to uphold.
39:59Other people are still going to use the tools they have to come back at the film or the
40:04filmmaker to try to prevent something from happening.
40:07And I think when you are working with a public person, a public figure, I think you just
40:12have to accept that that's going to be part of it.
40:15So, you know, I think in this idea of final cut, it is something that I don't worry about
40:24too much anymore because I never made a film about someone who would have final cut, but
40:31I voluntarily showed them films.
40:33Sure.
40:34You know, I did that in the past and and then, you know, the first my debut film that I made
40:40was about my mother and my father, who, by the way, when I made that, that was in 2007
40:46and people would say, oh, you made a film about your mom and dad.
40:49Is it your first film?
40:50And it was my first theatrical film, but I'd actually been for 10 years making like television
40:55documentaries, just trying to get good at this, you know.
40:58So, you know, I think that there's a new acceptance for me and perhaps in our field about what
41:05a collaboration with your subject means.
41:07There's a lot of talk about subject care, about the ethics of filmmaking once the film
41:12is done and where you leave that person kind of in the dust.
41:16And how can we, you know, be better ethical professionals, really?
41:23Well, I mean, I mean, there's lots to talk about on the subject, you know, first film
41:30I produced, The War Room, D.A.
41:32Pennebaker and Chris Hedges directed it.
41:34And one of the first lessons they taught me was that the story belongs not to me or them,
41:42but to the subject and that the entire process of making a film is, you know, it's all about
41:50of making a film is earning the trust of the subject so they will share that story with
41:55you and that you must honor that.
41:57And on an important level, the greatest manifestation of that honoring happens when you are almost
42:07done with the film and you share it with the subject and you engage in thoughtful conversation
42:11with them.
42:12And we did it on The War Room.
42:14I've done it on every film I've directed.
42:17You haven't lived until you've shown Dick Cheney, his wife and daughter, a film called
42:23The World According to Dick Cheney.
42:25Yeah, that was something.
42:27So I but we've and Mrs. Cheney before before Lynn Cheney, before we started screening,
42:33I said, any questions?
42:36And she said, yeah, what are you doing?
42:38I was like, well, we came here to Casper, Wyoming, because the vice president trusted
42:43us to tell his story.
42:44And we want to hear what he has to say.
42:46So we engage in a thoughtful conversation.
42:47You have to you have to do it.
42:50So we've done this and and and you and this is trust is all right.
42:56That's what all we've got.
42:57So it's it's the it's an important part of earning trust.
43:03But that is a separate thing from we're going to agree at the beginning.
43:09We're about to spend a year making a film and a year editing.
43:12If roughly speaking, a year editing a film and then roughly speaking, a year sharing
43:17the film with the world.
43:18We want that film to be taken seriously.
43:21And it's going to be taken seriously if it's made by me, not by Martha Stewart.
43:27Right.
43:27And yes, Martha Stewart was going to make a different film that I'm going to make.
43:31That's OK.
43:32I get it.
43:33I said to her, must speak freely.
43:35I, you know, don't I don't I don't mind that you that you wish that I had shown more pictures
43:42of puff pastry.
43:43It's OK.
43:44But I but I made the I made the choices that I made because we're and trust me, the world
43:51will see that this is a film about American womanhood and, you know, all those things.
43:57So but we know, is there a collaboration?
44:00I if there are any lawyers in the room, I've every lawyer I've asked has never heard of
44:04the term of art collaboration agreement.
44:07But we have an agreement that says, I'm going to show you the film and we're going to talk
44:10about it.
44:11I'm going to show it to you again and we're going to talk about it.
44:13That's what our agreement articulates.
44:15We've codified that kind of Pennebaker principle over the years.
44:20So, yeah, this is an important part of what we do.
44:23And if I may say just to get through for the record today, she went on the Martha went
44:28on the Drew Barrymore show and Drew asked her what she thought of the film.
44:34And she said, it's a wonderful movie about American womanhood.
44:38Way to go, Martha.
44:40Well, and I think if your subject trusts.
44:43Good job.
44:45See what tomorrow if your subject, if your subject trust, Celine trusted that she would
44:51have a seat at the table talking about the film with me.
44:54She never asked me to see it before I was ready.
44:56She never even asked me to see it.
44:58She act surprised when I said, could I fly out in the next few weeks?
45:01I'd like to come and show it to you.
45:04Is that she I think it's human nature.
45:08Your subjects going to be more open.
45:10They're going to be if they feel like they don't get to see it until the premiere that
45:16they are going to pre sensor so that you have a little less control.
45:21They're going to be a little bit.
45:22They're going to be more reticent.
45:23What's harder than seeing yourself in one of these films?
45:27You know, right?
45:29Well, I don't know.
45:30It's freedom.
45:32But there was an estate, right?
45:34There's an estate.
45:34Exactly.
45:35I mean, it's not sometimes it's not.
45:37It's not easier with somebody harder.
45:39It's harder with gatekeepers because they have this like, you know, view of the person
45:45they're protecting or the legacy they're protecting.
45:47So sometimes the person is like, yeah, I'm full of flaws.
45:50Yeah.
45:50Thank you for finding them.
45:52I don't want to overgeneralize, but you know what I mean?
45:54The subject is more forgiving.
45:57If you nuance complexity is what makes I think a lot of these profile films really interesting
46:03because they're not perfect.
46:04They're not heroes.
46:05They're also, you know, not all bad, except I don't know.
46:10I don't know what.
46:10No, it's true.
46:13Like you asked before, what is the challenge of a famous person?
46:17And on some levels, the challenge is that they're not born a famous person.
46:22Their fame is a reflection of our culture and the values that we that we have.
46:27You know, I'm executive producing a film now about the man who pioneered immunotherapy,
46:36and he's not famous at all.
46:38But, you know, goodness gracious, he's in another time, in another culture, he would
46:44be he'd be the most famous man in the land.
46:47Yeah, well, I just want to say I just want to can I add one thing about the idea of trust,
46:52because it's not only, you know, with the subjects are, you know, the state of your
46:56of your subjects, but also the trust that you create within your team and also the trust
47:02with your partners.
47:03There is, you know, I mean, you you you're making bold decisions.
47:07You want to make a film with with artistic integrity and just having that trust with
47:13your partners and the financing coming in is also incredibly important.
47:19I was really lucky to to work with with Brianna at Amazon, because we had some pushback really
47:25early on when we took the film out about, you know, this vision of wanting to make this
47:31film in Spanish, like we have to make it in Frida's native language.
47:36And, and, you know, and, and a lot of people do still get nervous about so much black and
47:43white archival, you know, is it gonna feel dated?
47:45Is it gonna feel old and dull?
47:48A little tired.
47:50So it is that building of trust all around that, you know, to make a film with artistic
47:56integrity, you know, it's that trust is needed.
48:01It's essential.
48:02Yeah.
48:03I'm gonna have to wrap it up at RJ.
48:05I would be I would give you money for the calls that you had with Martha, just to hear
48:11those calls would be available.
48:14I believe our collaboration agreement, our collaboration contract allows me to record
48:20everything.
48:22And the text.
48:24Yeah, I bet they're, they're doozies.
48:25Well, I want to thank all three of you for coming and joining us today.
48:30Thank you for sharing, everyone.