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00:00And for that, like, half an hour, it's like, I feel like the best songwriter that's ever
00:04graced this planet.
00:05And then, you know, it comes crashing down when I actually can't write the rest of the
00:09song.
00:10But for that one half an hour, I'm like, oh, my God.
00:16OK, so Griff, I just want to dive in because I know you're about to take the stage, but
00:22we have a lot that we need to discuss.
00:23There's a lot to get through.
00:24So you just did a piece recently with Rolling Stones' Larisha Paul.
00:29And in that piece, you kind of talked about the concept of running to music to kind of
00:34find yourself.
00:35Like, who are the people that you listen to that make you feel the way you want to make
00:39other people feel?
00:40Oh, I love that.
00:41Kirk Franklin and Mary Mary give me like a real soul, spiritual like energy that is like
00:47nothing else.
00:48Whitney, I would say there's like again, there's like a gut pain in Whitney's music that makes
00:54me feel amazing.
00:55And then like Lorde, I love.
00:57She just makes me feel euphoric and heard and articulates things in different ways.
01:01And yeah, I think I always have to say Taylor.
01:03I always listen to Taylor.
01:04So, yeah.
01:05If you soundtracked a movie, what movie would it be?
01:07I mean, it's super cliche, but like I love a Wes Anderson film.
01:11I think they're so beautiful and unique.
01:15So maybe like some kind of Wes Anderson film, but with like a touch of more surreal Tim
01:19Burton-y surrealness in it.
01:22I think that Tim Burton kind of aspect, I get that because I'd also like thinking about
01:28the clothes that you sew.
01:29Right.
01:30It has these little like quirks.
01:31Like lately we're in the spiral.
01:32And then in your past eras, maybe the dresses were quite big and like there's a lot of fluff.
01:36So I get that idea of like having these worlds that are so fine-tunely created.
01:42And they have a way of like living and breathing on its own.
01:45Exactly.
01:46There's something about all those kind of surreal worlds where it's like they provide
01:49escapism in a really beautiful, surreal, dreamy way that I love.
01:54Yeah.
01:55There's On Vertigo, Into the Walls.
01:57I love it because I just imagine like zooping into a wall and just kind of wanting to find
02:02refuge.
02:03And if you look at the lyrics, like they're, they're quite harrowing, you know, they're
02:07dark.
02:08Whatever you do, don't look at the lyrics.
02:09I love it.
02:10If you want to have a nice day.
02:11Well, I immediately went, this is me.
02:12I know exactly what you're talking about.
02:14But then you just want to dance.
02:15Can you talk about weaving those like therapeutic qualities into the music that you create and
02:19kind of how that fits into this kind of like surrealist kind of world that you live in?
02:23Yeah.
02:25I'm drawn to writing really broken songs.
02:28I think there's a side of all of our human hearts that are deeply empty and deeply searching.
02:32And I think when I write music, that's kind of where I go.
02:35But also, I just think there's something so beautiful about like sad music you can dance
02:38to.
02:39Like, there's a reason why Dancing On My Own by Robin is just like, over and over again,
02:42no matter how many times you hear it, you want to dance and you want to cry.
02:46And I guess it's kind of like, why not be greedy with all the emotions sometimes?
02:50Actually, on maybe a psychological level, I think when I was writing this album, I was
02:54feeling so much, I was so lost and so heavy and empty at the same time.
02:59But like desperately trying to write these songs almost to like, evoke feeling in myself,
03:04you know?
03:05So I felt that it was almost like I was writing mantras for myself.
03:09It was like Into The Walls is about being completely numb and alone, but trying to find
03:14some feeling in that.
03:15And I feel like that's why you got this kind of, um, dichotomy?
03:16Is that a word?
03:17I don't want to say it confidently.
03:18It doesn't sound like fake intelligent.
03:19But yeah.
03:20Yeah.
03:21You felt that in your spirit because you was right.
03:24Well, I think that like, it's it perfectly fits into one of the questions I wanted to
03:25ask you.
03:26Thinking about one foot in front of the other to Vertigo now, how do you think that you
03:27as a person has changed throughout this process?
03:28One foot in front of the other.
03:29I think of that, like mixtape EP and I just, it was still like, so different.
03:30I mean, it was still like, I mean, it was still like, I mean, it was still like, I mean,
03:31it was almost more playful and a bit more carefree.
03:51And I think the reality is with Vertigo is like, it's almost like this album marks the
03:55bridge of like adulthood where like, the world becomes super heavy.
03:59And I lost my confidence.
04:01I lost myself.
04:02I found it again.
04:03I lost it again.
04:04It was like, there's so much confusion in this and sadness, I think in this album that
04:09I think it's quite unfortunate that that's what's changed almost.
04:13But I also think on the other side, I think I've gotten a lot better at producing.
04:16I think I've written some of my best songs on this.
04:18So I think like, as the themes maybe get heavier, I think the songs hopefully are more better.
04:23I don't know.
04:25I want to know about your production process.
04:26So like, when you're producing, what are your first kernels of creativity?
04:30What typically starts your process?
04:32Usually I try and like, always have a bank of notes for lyric inspiration so that like,
04:38if we're talking and you say a word that I really like, I'll like secretly, slyly try
04:41to write it down.
04:42So I've just always got a bank of stuff that I can go back to.
04:44But usually if I'm sitting down to write, I will sit at the piano, try and make some
04:48kind of chorus that I like, even if the lyrics aren't finished, and then I'll start making
04:52a beat.
04:54I usually start with like drums and like, try and find a groove.
04:57I think that's why I love producing beats that just feel a little bit wonky and a bit
05:01like not imperfect, you know?
05:03Yeah.
05:04And then my favorite part, I think is like, once I feel like I've got a loop or a production
05:07beat that I like, I'll just let it run for like half an hour and just improvise on the
05:11mic and completely get lost.
05:13And for that, like half an hour is like, I feel like the best songwriter that's ever
05:17graced this planet.
05:18And then, you know, it comes crashing down when I actually can't write the rest of the
05:22song.
05:23But for that one half an hour, I'm like, oh my God.
05:24And then you listen to the next day, you're like, this is terrible, but that's what I
05:27love about songwriting.
05:28It's a high.
05:29Yeah.
05:30And we're going to ride it.
05:31Exactly.
05:32Yeah.
05:33In that piece that you did with Larisha Paul, you talked about POC pop princesses, right?
05:35Yes.
05:36I really enjoyed this conversation.
05:37Yeah.
05:38It was great.
05:39It was phenomenal.
05:40And I'm so happy to read it.
05:41At a certain point, it's like the mold wasn't made for you.
05:43So you kind of have to toss it out completely.
05:46With that in mind, what does success look like to you?
05:51It's changing all the time.
05:53I think now it just looks like being able to sustain a really long career where I can
05:59write songs I love and that people feel moved by them is actually just what success is.
06:05And I think sometimes it's easy for industry and everything else to put so much noise in
06:10your head about what success should look like.
06:12But actually, like you said, a lot of those marks that people can put you in a box aren't
06:19made for me.
06:20You're comparing me to a pretty cis-Caucasian white world that I've never really been able
06:27to slip into too easily.
06:29The longer I'm in this industry, the longer I'm trying to find comfort in my own marks
06:34of success instead of looking over there and being like, oh my God, she's doing that or
06:38they're doing that.
06:39Because actually, like you said, I actually, growing up, have never been able to compare
06:42myself.
06:43It's been impossible.
06:44So yeah, being Chinese and Jamaican, it's not like there's loads of Chinese Jamaican
06:48London girls just chillin', you know?
06:50So yeah, I think every day I need to remind myself to just like, remember that I've never
06:55been on this planet in a very conforming way.
06:58So you know, you have supported people on tour, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa's Cold Plays.
07:03What is that experience like?
07:04How is that different in a supporting space and then coming out here on a headlining space?
07:08What does that feel like for you?
07:10Headline's always so much more fun.
07:11I mean, it's like, support is like such a crazy thing because you're performing on stages
07:16that you never dreamed you could perform on.
07:18I've technically performed in like the biggest venues I could ever perform in.
07:21Like it's thousands of people that aren't there to see you.
07:23So it's so satisfying showing up to my shows and hearing people sing the lyrics.
07:27And also, yeah, like seeing like so many like Asian girls, so many like black guys, black
07:32girls, like actually, to be honest, there's such a range of diversity in my audience.
07:36But I think that makes me really happy because I do think it represents like who I am, my
07:40upbringing and what my music is and should reach everyone, hopefully.
07:44So yeah.
07:45So before we get us out of here, I want to think about Vertigo.
07:48What was the shortest song that you like?
07:51It was quick for you.
07:52It was just like chords, drums, vocals.
07:55Let's go.
07:56And then what was the longest period of time where you're like, I need to go back to that
07:59one?
08:00Oh, some of them just like I just spent too long for no reason.
08:03Like I would be done and I would still be playing with the snares and whatever.
08:07I would say.
08:08OK, what was quick?
08:09I would say Pillow was pretty quick, Pillow In My Arms.
08:13That one I just did works on by myself and usually with songs by myself, it's pretty
08:17quick.
08:18It's like I either like or I hate it.
08:19So, yeah, I knew the concept.
08:22I knew I wanted to write about I wanted to write about like almost this Pillow becoming
08:25your only companion and this idea of loneliness.
08:27I would say Vertigo took a second.
08:30It actually was written super quickly that night.
08:32It took like maybe half an hour to write it.
08:35But again, I was overthinking the production and went back in on like all of those 808s
08:39and those arps at the end and all the BV stacks.
08:42I guess Astronaut took a second.
08:44Really?
08:45Why?
08:46Because it was made and it sounded a lot like Vertigo.
08:48And then I went on tour with Coldplay and then Chris Martin was like, you should strip
08:52that back.
08:53And so it went through lots of different versions to the it was never made to be a ballad, basically.
08:57And it's only because I was very, like, blessed enough to work with Chris that and he played
09:01the pianos on it that it kind of almost over the year took on different shapes and forms.
09:07I'm really excited to see your not only your your style as a lyricist and as a performer,
09:13but I'm extremely excited to see how you continue to grow as a producer.
09:18Like the way you're talking about music right now and like the intricacies of it and the
09:22formation of it.
09:23I'm just so excited to see that continue to grow.
09:25That is truly special.
09:26And it's something that, yeah, we really need in pop music.
09:29Yeah, we do.
09:30We need us.
09:31We do.
09:32I mean, I think the female star at the moment, I think the latest was like six percent of
09:35all producers is women at the moment, which is crazy, let alone, you know, POC.
09:40I'm not totally sure what the stats are, but it's the imbalance is still so crazy.
09:45So it's important that like, yeah, we're still talking about it and trying to knock those
09:49doors and barriers down.
09:50So, yeah.
09:51Thank you so much.
09:52I appreciate it.
09:53We're good to go.
09:54OK, amazing.
09:55Thanks for having me, Rolling Stone.