This week Chris Deacy is joined in the studio by Kristin Hawthorne to discuss the films; The Birds, Psycho, Barefoot Gen, and Bandersnatch.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Kent Film Club, I'm Chris DC and each week I'll be joined by
00:18a guest from Kent to dive deep into the impact certain films have had on their life.
00:23Each guest will reflect on the films which have meant the most to them over the years.
00:27And every week there will be a Kent Film Trivia where we quiz you at home about a
00:31film that has a connection to the county.
00:34And now let me introduce you to my guest for this week.
00:37She is a former film and philosophy student and a recent addition to the KMTV's news
00:42team as a video journalist.
00:44She is Christine Hawthorne.
00:47Great to have you on the show Christine.
00:50Now this is a classic which I saw for the first time when I was at university, The Birds.
00:54Yeah, well I saw this for the first time when I was doing my A-levels and I seen this one
01:00and I remember the first time I watched it I instantly fell in love with it.
01:03It's one of my favourite films.
01:05I just think the way that it was shot and the way that it's been made is so interesting
01:09and it's such a different concept, especially for its time when it was made.
01:15One of my favourite facts about the film is that when she went up into the attic the birds
01:19were real but Alfred Hitchcock didn't tell her.
01:22So actually her reaction is so believable because it was real, because they were real birds.
01:27So when she's being attacked?
01:28Yeah, yeah.
01:30And so I just thought all those things were so interesting and it really just, one of
01:35the films that really got me into horror and maybe sort of a different kind of horror as
01:38opposed to maybe the pop-up ones or more traditionally scary.
01:43Because when I saw this on the one hand the birds kind of looked fake but also they were
01:48all the more chilling for it because you could never quite tell and so that scene that you've
01:52just mentioned there is very revealing.
01:54But there's so much isn't there on what this film means and there's some sort of guilt
01:57because there's an element there that she does something wrong in a pet shop.
02:02Tell me what happens and then it's sort of like she's paying the price for it afterwards.
02:06Yes, well she has this sort of, I think she tries to play a prank or something on her
02:12other half and I think it goes wrong and basically the whole thing of the film is that the birds
02:18are taking revenge and I quite like birds.
02:21I've always liked birds, I have a bird of my own.
02:23And so I just think that the concept is so interesting and I just think it's a great
02:28idea for a film and I haven't really seen much like it yet so far.
02:33There was something in there about Hitchcock who was trying to deal with that sort of notion
02:37of guilt or sort of effectively almost a punishment maybe for something because it's the inexplicable.
02:47All the way watching this you're thinking why is this happening, why is it happening
02:49to her?
02:51And you're right, it's a horror film because this was made just a short while after Psycho
02:57but some people will see this as the sort of archetypal chilling Hitchcock movie.
03:04Yes, it kind of reminds me of Frankenstein a bit in the way that it's sort of like monster
03:09based like the birds themselves aren't monsters but when they band together it's sort of like
03:14this terrifying thing and I also think it's interesting because a lot of it, as opposed
03:19to other films, they're shot in darkness and at night time whereas this is broad daylight
03:24and it's something where it's real, we see birds all the time, we go out in the street,
03:29there's pigeons everywhere and I think it's interesting because once you watch it and
03:32you leave the cinema or you stop watching it on your computer or whatever, you go outside
03:36and you're kind of looking around like is this going to happen?
03:39I think you put that really well because that's Hitchcock isn't it who deals with the everyday,
03:43the sort of prosaic, the sort of things that happen to us all the time but then turns it
03:47into a site, a cauldron almost of, well maybe evil, but of something malevolent and North
03:55by Northwest did the same kind of thing as well, an everyday person in an everyday situation
04:00suddenly thrown in the deep end and having to extricate themselves.
04:04Yeah, definitely.
04:05I mean he's made so many films and I just find the way that he shoots things is really
04:11interesting especially the terrifying scene when they're all leaving the school and all
04:16the children are running away.
04:19I mean yeah, I think it's incredible, I really like the film.
04:23And there's something in there isn't there about the way that sometimes we adapt to circumstances
04:29but sometimes, I mean people have the same, I know people who find films where there's
04:34a clown to be really horrifying because you see clowns everywhere, children's birthday
04:37parties but it doesn't take much, the Terrifier 3 or the Joker film shows that with just a
04:43small modification that can be something quite venal, really quite scary.
04:47So other particular, other scenes, anything about this, did you ever like me come away
04:51from it and think what is this about?
04:55Yeah I mean really the main scenes I like in it are the ones towards the end, the ones
05:01towards the start and they have things like love birds in it and so the whole film just
05:06has so many birds and different kinds of birds and I really like it and it is quite real
05:12just like I said, I mean there's birds everywhere and you just sort of, you walk out once you
05:16see it.
05:17I mean I quite like the idea of when you see a film, if you were to see a spy film or something
05:21you would leave the cinema and you're kind of, it feels real, you're kind of looking
05:24around.
05:25So I feel like this one you kind of, you might leave the cinema and think oh wow, what's
05:27going to happen?
05:28That happened to me after watching Get Out but that's for a different conversation.
05:32But have you sort of watched this and got something different from it?
05:35Have you always, like me, thought why is this happening or is the fact that it's unresolved,
05:41the fact that the mystery remains exactly key to its success?
05:46Yeah I mean, let me think, I mean my favourite part of it is just the uniqueness of it really
05:56because I mean you have films about monsters, ghosts, all sorts of things, psychological
06:03horror, this is kind of on its own really and like I said, I mean the instant I watched
06:08it, it was one of my favourite films just because it was so intense, so graphic really.
06:12I mean the way people were screaming and everything, it's, yeah, it's really something that grabs
06:16your attention and I think from its time I find it very inspiring.
06:20Fantastic.
06:21Well it's time now to move on to your second chosen film and I didn't know that you had
06:27chosen Psycho but that is your next choice.
06:30Exactly.
06:31My next film, another one of my favourites, just because it is the film that I think encouraged
06:39me to start making my own films.
06:41One of my favourite genres is horror, as we can probably tell from this far.
06:46So yes, a fact about this one, in the scene, the shower scene, in the cinema at the time
06:51I was told that people were running out of the cinema thinking that they could see real
06:56blood.
06:57It was in black and white so you couldn't and Alfred Hitchcock, I believe he used chocolate
07:00sauce.
07:01And so, but it was just, it was the first of its time and it was the first real gory
07:05film that I think really sent people into hysterics really, like what is happening,
07:09is this real, can you even do something like that?
07:13And I also like how it has inspired so many new films.
07:17There's a series on Netflix called Norman Bates which is based on this, I've watched
07:22it three times, three or four times, I think it's amazing and yeah, I just think that the
07:27way it's done, it's unique again and there's a lot of layers to it and I think it's really
07:32interesting.
07:33And it's interesting that you say that there have been all these adaptations since because
07:36Gus Van Santen would have been around 98, 99, did a remake and it was literally a scene
07:43by scene remake.
07:44It's almost like he was doing this as a sort of directing masterclass.
07:48But you mentioned that you were drawn to make your own films because of the strength of
07:53this.
07:55There is something that wasn't there about Hitchcock who was asked by the censors in
07:58that famous shower scene to take something out and he did something with the filters
08:02I think but then effectively gave back to the censors what he'd already shot and they
08:07were happy with it so he was sort of having a bit of a joke there.
08:10So there's a lot of that about what was going on behind the scenes.
08:13Yeah definitely and I feel like there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes in Hitchcock
08:17films but really, I mean, I have analysed the film before at A-level, I have analysed
08:24the whole scene and it really has inspired photography for me.
08:28I made my own horror films sort of based on things like this and as opposed to The Birds
08:33this is more of a pop-up one but I do quite like it just because it sort of creates a
08:37feeling of darkness maybe.
08:40It creates a sort of feeling as opposed to maybe other horror films that you watch and
08:43then you get over.
08:44This one, it does create a sort of dark feeling.
08:47And actually in relation to what we were saying about The Birds, it's the everyday, somebody
08:51checking in a hotel or a motel.
08:53It should be a fairly sort of ordinary, we've seen it a million times before and you're
08:57right, now whenever we see in a film somebody checking in a hotel or a motel, we're expecting
09:01something sinister to happen.
09:03But there is something isn't there at the heart of this because when it came out, it
09:07was stipulated that no one said something about films in those days, that you weren't
09:11allowed to enter the film after it had started because there was something quite shocking
09:18in that first half an hour, isn't there?
09:20I suppose you are allowed to give it away now after so long but effectively somebody
09:24dies who we think is the main character and I think that also really wrong-footed people
09:28as well as the shower scene.
09:30Yeah, definitely.
09:31It's just one of those films where you watch it and I feel like you're constantly surprised.
09:37It has psychological elements to it obviously with Norman Bates being a psycho, a debatable
09:44psycho, and I just think that it is really interesting.
09:49Definitely you're being surprised.
09:51The shower scene, incredibly shot.
09:55The drain going down, it's just like the eye, it's supposed to look like the eye isn't it?
09:59Because the last shot is her eye, she goes down the shower and then it goes into the
10:02drain and yeah, it really inspired me to have more symbolism in films really as opposed
10:10to just this is what it is and let's move on to the next scene.
10:13It makes you think a bit more.
10:15Because although she then dies, the same actress appears and she is as her sister and
10:21so this whole doppelganger thing but also you mentioned symbolism but suddenly Hitchcock
10:25kills somebody but then he sort of brings them back in a different way.
10:29Is that something that really shocked you when you saw it?
10:32I mean definitely.
10:33The whole film shocked me and even in the series itself it sort of goes on a little
10:37bit afterwards and I just think that the story is really good, yeah.
10:42And because you studied it, has that in any way sort of made it difficult to enjoy this
10:49or is the enjoyment through what you've studied about it?
10:51In other words, is this a film that you can almost overstudy in some ways because it's
10:56technically so brilliant but does it still have that same almost like visceral power
11:00to really haunt you, to shock you?
11:02I think it's more just, I haven't watched the film in a long time but it's something
11:07that I always tell people about when we're talking about films or talking about horror
11:11films just because it has a real place in my heart.
11:14Even I have little, for Halloween you can get these things that you put on your wall
11:18and so I have this handprint tile in my shower that kind of reminisces of that, it always
11:23reminds me of that.
11:24Possibly it's over-analysed but I still think I could watch the film and maybe not watch
11:29it so much but appreciate what's within the scenes.
11:32Brilliant, well that's about all the time we have for this first half of the show, however
11:35before we go to the break we have a Kent Film Trivia question for you at home.
11:41Which book-to-film adaptation features Dover Castle?
11:45Was it A. Little Women, B. Mr Toad's Wild Ride or C. Sense and Sensibility?
11:51We'll reveal the answer right after this break, don't go away.
12:06Hello and welcome back to Kent Film Club.
12:09Just before that ad break we asked you at home a Kent Film Trivia question.
12:13Which book-to-film adaptation features Dover Castle?
12:17Was it A. Little Women, B. Mr Toad's Wild Ride or C. Sense and Sensibility?
12:22And now I can reveal to you that the answer was in fact B. Mr Toad's Wild Ride, the production
12:28filmed at Dover Castle which doubled as the jail where Toad dines before stealing and
12:33crashing a motor car.
12:35Did you get the answer right?
12:37Well it is time now Kristin to move on to your next chosen film and you've gone for
12:42Barefoot, is it Barefoot Jen?
12:45It is, it is.
12:47So this film is about the Hiroshima in Japan.
12:53I really like this film because it kind of shows such a unique perspective really.
13:00The way that the actual bomb is shown within the film, it's really interesting.
13:07Basically it happens, things sort of slow down and then the colours on screen go quite
13:13black and white, it's quite graphic looking.
13:17It takes a while to get into it so you sort of, basically the Barefoot Jen is this group
13:22of orphans.
13:24You can see them at the start of the film, they kind of come together and basically the
13:29film goes through this journey before the Hiroshima and yeah, like I said, I just think
13:35that the anime style is so interesting and I think that the way that it was done is,
13:42it's quite, I mean it just looks brilliant really.
13:47It's not something, it's not like this big loud noise, it actually goes silent and because
13:52it was an atomic bomb as well, there's a lot more to it really and how to showcase that,
13:58I just think it was done really well.
14:00And do you think that the animation actually helped in the way that it resonated with you?
14:06In other words, is that the whole thing, that the animation was a particular draw, appeal
14:12for you?
14:13Yes, definitely because I think typically we don't know really what happened to people
14:20there.
14:21I mean we can guess but there's no real footage for obvious reasons really and so just the
14:26way that it goes to black and white, everything slows down, it's quite quiet.
14:31I just think artistically that it's really, really interesting, looks amazing and I think
14:37the story in general, it sort of flows through really well.
14:41And do you think in that sense that maybe, it was the same with 9-11, how do you capture
14:48something that is so horrific and we've had Holocaust films in the course of the last
14:52year as well, like Zone of Interest, how do you grapple with something that on a scale
14:57that is so personally difficult for people and by the sound of it, this was actually
15:02quite a successful means?
15:03Yeah, I mean to me it was.
15:06This is another film that I studied in my last year of uni and I mean yeah, like I said,
15:12I just think that the artistic style in it, really interesting, the way that the bomb
15:19itself is shown, the way it's depicted, the different relationships, maybe how people
15:25were living in their life before that time and then after, how much it changed people.
15:30There's actually a girl and her little sister I believe that survive the bomb or maybe they're
15:38quite badly injured but I mean it's really quite gripping and if you were to watch it
15:44in the cinema or dedicate your evening to it, it generates a lot of emotion really.
15:50And so you were watching this at university, you may not have perhaps watched it otherwise
15:54but is this something that you've been able to return to since?
15:58It really made me find anime more interesting.
16:01I have not really been a huge fan of anime, I've liked different ones throughout studying
16:07film but usually I kind of watch it and forget the name.
16:11I mean there's Ponyo, ones like that but this one, like I've been, it's just artistic style.
16:16I think that it's just so incredible, the way it goes to black and white, the goriness
16:21of it, the drawings, something really unique in that as well.
16:25And do you think that in watching something like this, it can then, not necessarily yourself
16:29but somebody who wants to know more about what happened, it's almost like that's the
16:34way and that's the hook because I often find that, I mean I'm not really a big fan of say
16:39war films but I can also see that war films can be a good way of understanding more about
16:44historical conflict.
16:45Conflict, it sounds similar with Barefoot Jen.
16:48Yeah, definitely and I mean, anime can be sort of difficult to stay engaged with sometimes
16:55because for a lot of us, we don't like to watch films in a different language, we prefer
16:59to watch the screen visually as opposed to reading the subtitles.
17:03This one, with the images and the drawings, maybe you don't even need to read the subtitles,
17:07you can kind of watch it and gather what's happening and I think because the way it's
17:12drawn, because the way it's depicted, it really sparked my interest in what happened there
17:18and I do just think it's really interesting, really easy to engage in and to watch.
17:24It's not too difficult to understand or stay entertained with.
17:30And is this something that, when you saw it, was it on your own, was it as part of a class
17:37lesson?
17:38In other words, were you able to share the experience of watching this with others afterwards?
17:42Definitely, so I watched this as part of one of my lectures.
17:45So what happened in uni, we would have a lecture about the film and then we would watch the
17:48film in the cinema.
17:50So it was one of the ones I was watching in the cinema, I just thought wow, this is incredible
17:54and then in the seminar afterwards, we all discussed it and I think most people had the
17:58same sort of idea, that it was just really interesting and again, unique in the sense
18:02of how it's done the story in of itself.
18:04I mean, anime, we usually maybe think of something where it's like action or maybe things happening
18:08in a school or maybe it could be sort of supernatural, whereas this one, it is quite real life.
18:14So it's sort of a mix of history, real life and a new perspective really on what happened.
18:19Well it is time now to move on to your final chosen film and you've gone for Bandersnatch.
18:26Yeah, so this one, this is part of the Black Mirror series.
18:30It is a film, but basically it's, you go through the film and you can choose what happens.
18:37So it's a bit, it's an interactive film, basically.
18:40It's kind of like those ones, if you've heard of the butterfly effect.
18:44It's kind of like this one, you choose an answer and it determines the outcome.
18:48So you can choose, it'll give you two options.
18:50You can choose it while you're watching it and then it'll come up with a different outcome.
18:55When I was looking, you know, I was looking through my Netflix yesterday to see what sort of films I'd watched.
18:59It seems like interactive films are really becoming more popular and I'm just, I thought
19:03it would be good to just sort of think about maybe, is this something that's going to happen
19:06more in cinemas?
19:08Maybe it's going to become more popular, you know, there might be sort of like gaming films
19:11that you could do, different things.
19:13I just thought it was a really interesting concept and maybe something that we're not
19:16particularly used to.
19:17I think that's a really important point because when I saw that come up on the screen, I thought
19:22I don't know it, but Black Mirror, so it's a TV phenomenon, but it reminds me of the
19:29Twilight Zone, which obviously before I was born, but they used to show them on TV when
19:34I was growing up in the late 50s, early 60s and then it returned in the 80s.
19:39And you, almost like those parallel reality scenarios, but interactive.
19:45They did it with a film called Clue in the cinemas in the 80s, based on the Agatha Christie,
19:49like a board game really.
19:50And there were three different endings, which showed different endings showing at different
19:54cinemas in New York when it was released.
19:57But I wonder whether what you're outlining here is something quite similar to that, about
20:02the possibilities of us, the audience, effectively having a bearing on the outcome.
20:09Well, I think that it's really interesting because obviously with AI becoming more advanced
20:14every day and we have things like VR, some people are questioning, are we going to have
20:18films on VR sets, virtual reality?
20:21And so I just think, you know, with these interactive films, it's got me thinking about
20:24the future of film.
20:26Will it be something so basic to where we're sitting and watching it for two hours or will
20:29it be a lot more interactive in the future?
20:31And when you were watching this, I don't know how many times you've seen this and whether
20:35there are lots of other Black Mirror episodes that have really appealed to you.
20:41But do you want to just talk me through what happens in this one?
20:44What is the sort of the alternative ending, if you like, or the alternative scenario that
20:49plays out?
20:50Yeah, definitely.
20:51So you choose different options.
20:52I believe that it's quite computer science-y, so you can kind of choose the outcome at the
20:59end.
21:00Again, I haven't watched this one a long time.
21:01I just thought it was really interesting to have something interactive.
21:05The rest of the Black Mirror ones, however, they're quite futuristic.
21:08So it is based a lot on, you know, dystopian worlds and what could happen if we had real-life
21:17dating apps, ones that you could sort of rate people in real life.
21:20You know, they walk past, you see they're reading, this sort of thing.
21:23And so it's quite dystopian, really.
21:27And I just think that, you know, the different outcomes, very unpredictable, nothing that
21:31you'd ever really be able to predict.
21:34And so choosing the different options, I mean, you could watch the film three or four
21:39times.
21:40And it's experimental, but when you think that just a few moments ago, we were talking
21:43about Alfred Hitchcock and the way that he did something very inventive back in the day.
21:49This might be, you know, if Hitchcock was around today, maybe he'd be, you know, I suppose
21:53he was always interested in giving the audience a bit of a scare, taking them on a bit of
21:56a thrill ride.
21:57And I wonder if maybe this would be something he'd approve of.
22:01Yeah, I guess.
22:02So that is a very good point, because, I mean, like we were talking at the start, he likes
22:06everyday things, really, uniqueness.
22:09And I suppose with these sort of films, quite dystopian, futuristic, it's sort of quite,
22:16it is the everyday, but it's what would happen in the everyday if this were to happen.
22:20And I guess it is quite sort of similar to Hitchcock's films, really, in that way.
22:25I do think that he would like the interactiveness of it.
22:29Maybe he would prefer, I'm not sure.
22:31I feel like he liked to have quite a lot of control over what the outcome of a film
22:34would be.
22:35So I'm not sure if he personally would appreciate this, but I definitely think he would have
22:40thought it was a great idea.
22:41Because I think in Hitchcock's day, of course, the primary means for watching a film was
22:45on the big screen.
22:46So you can almost imagine him wanting to stand just outside the, you know, watching the audience
22:49scream in terror and getting a bit of a, you know, rather liking that he'd had that effect
22:53on them.
22:54I suppose it would be very different in terms of technology today.
22:59But were you imagining various outcomes here?
23:03Did you manage to choose the outcome that matched what you thought?
23:06Have you watched an alternative ending to this on a subsequent viewing?
23:10I think I did.
23:11I think I honestly watched it about three or four times, and I chose a different answer
23:15every time.
23:16So it is one of those ones that you can watch over and over again, really.
23:19And it's quite, I mean, you could watch the film one night, the next night you say, oh,
23:22I'm going to watch the same film, but I'm going to do it a different way.
23:25Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today.
23:28But before we go, if you live in Kent and want the chance to share four films of your
23:32choice, reach out to us at KMTV and you might be invited in to be my next guest.
23:37But for now, many thanks to Kristin Hawthorne for joining us and being such a brilliant
23:41guest.
23:42And many thanks to you all for tuning in.
23:44Until next time, that's all from us.
23:47Goodbye.