Michael Schwartz and Bobby Rutter, the dynamic leaders behind Forward Hospitality Group, have transformed the Midwest's entertainment scene. With 12 distinct concepts spanning multiple states and nearly 1,000 employees, their journey is a testament to adaptability, vision, and resilience.
Watch now to learn about transforming the entertainment scene in the Midwest and reinvention as a business model.
Watch now to learn about transforming the entertainment scene in the Midwest and reinvention as a business model.
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00:00There's 24 hours in a day, we all get it.
00:02That's the only guarantee that we all get.
00:04And it just depends on how you wanna use them.
00:07I think we all know when we're productive and we're not.
00:09So you can make those choices.
00:11And so you can sit in bed with your feelings
00:13driving you into bed and keeping you there,
00:15or you can use your brain and get the heck out of bed
00:17to start working.
00:18♪♪
00:23Welcome to Restaurant Influencers
00:25presented by Entrepreneur.
00:26I am your host, Sean Waltrip.
00:28This is a Cali BBQ Media production.
00:31In life, in the restaurant business,
00:33and in the new creator economy,
00:34we learn through lessons and stories.
00:36We have a special episode today.
00:38We have a CEO and COO, Michael Schwartz and Bobby Rudder.
00:44They are running the group called Forward Hospitality Group.
00:4912 different concepts, over 500 employees, multiple states.
00:54And it's an overnight success,
00:56which is why I brought them on the show.
00:58They opened up the venues and all of a sudden,
01:02everything made sense.
01:03But no, all kidding aside,
01:05can't wait to dive into this episode
01:08so you guys can get a little bit more
01:10on the nightclub space.
01:12We don't talk about nightclubs a lot.
01:14We talk about restaurants.
01:15These guys run phenomenal restaurants
01:16inside the nightclubs,
01:17but welcome to the show, gentlemen.
01:20Thanks for having us.
01:21Thanks, looking forward to it.
01:23So Michael, let me get this straight.
01:26You're a cum laude graduate,
01:27degrees in finance and accounting,
01:29and you're a former CPA with Price Waterhouse.
01:32And with all that knowledge,
01:35somehow, someway you thought restaurant business,
01:38hospitality business, that's where the money is.
01:41Yeah, I was just going to say,
01:42I don't know if it was about the money,
01:44but I was just going to say that,
01:46yeah, what a great background to be a restaurateur, huh?
01:51You know, really the story for me is,
01:53I was an entrepreneur since I was a kid.
01:56I actually had the privilege
01:57of being inducted into my high school hall of fame
02:00just last weekend.
02:02It was on a Thursday,
02:04and then they had ceremonies over the weekend.
02:06So that's why I say weekend,
02:06but I remember my first true entrepreneurial job
02:13was raking leaves off the high school school board.
02:16And so I brought that up at the hall of fame.
02:18I've always been a serial entrepreneur.
02:20So at heart, when I was in college,
02:23I started a company called M, M, and I,
02:25standing for me, myself, and I.
02:27It was a window washing company.
02:30My mom always told me
02:32that you need something to fall back on, right?
02:34Like a typical mom would say.
02:36So, you know, I was pretty mathematically bright.
02:39So gravitated towards accounting and finance,
02:42and just went that path and hated it from the get-go
02:45once I actually had a real job.
02:47I didn't mind the classwork doing that.
02:50Since then, I would tell people out there
02:52that your mom wants you to have something to fall back on.
02:55I'd say fall forward.
02:56I'd rather you do what you love and try your best at that.
03:00And if you fail, let's fall forward
03:02and get ourselves up off the ground and then try again.
03:05And so in the mid-90s, some friends came to me,
03:10just the typical story.
03:11Hey, let's open up a bar.
03:13They were from Atlanta.
03:15We opened up this sandwich place, late night food,
03:21based on a Cleveland concept.
03:23And Atlanta's a different market than Cleveland.
03:25So I got my first lesson
03:26on why different parts of the country work differently.
03:304 a.m. liquor license at that time.
03:33Cleveland's more of a Midwest drinking beer town,
03:38pile horrible things into your mouth late night.
03:41Atlanta was a bunch of skinny minis.
03:43Nobody was gonna eat this food.
03:46I was out on the street eating these sandwiches,
03:48telling people how great they were,
03:49and street marketing.
03:52And at some point we pivoted.
03:55We opened up a club called The Living Room
03:57in the same space.
03:58It became wildly successful at the time.
04:02I didn't even know Bobby Rudder at the time.
04:04And met a guy named Terry Barbu up in Cleveland
04:09who had done some amazing things, brought him down.
04:11And he helped teach me the business
04:14and transformed the club into The Living Room.
04:16My financial skills, along with his restaurant skills,
04:20were a good harmony.
04:22And so I bought his partners out
04:23with the success we had in Atlanta.
04:25I took that money and bought his partners out in Cleveland.
04:27And we started developing the warehouse district,
04:31which is West 6th Street in Cleveland.
04:34That became the hub of the Cleveland Entertainment Center.
04:37And at that point, Bobby Rudder had contacted me
04:41because he was in Chicago, working in Chicago.
04:44He's a lawyer.
04:45I mean, it's a funny story.
04:46You have a lawyer and an accountant,
04:47and you're talking to us about nightlife, right?
04:51That's, you know, your PR team
04:53did a great job pitching you guys.
04:55And the more that I looked into it,
04:57this is why we do the show.
04:59There's people doing some magical things all over the globe
05:02and for the opportunity to come
05:04in all different backgrounds.
05:05I mean, we'll put links into the show notes,
05:08all the social handles.
05:09But what you guys are building
05:11is very impressive and exciting.
05:13Yeah, so it was, you know,
05:14when you look on it in hindsight, it makes sense.
05:17I mean, we have the business acumen that you need.
05:20I mean, you have a lawyer, an accountant,
05:22and two guys who are truly entrepreneurial.
05:24So, you know, I had that background.
05:26He was up in Chicago.
05:27He had done some restaurant, a nightclub promoting
05:31for extra money on the side
05:32when he was going through law school.
05:34And he heard about me and he says,
05:38come up to Chicago.
05:39And I'll relay the story back to the gentleman
05:41I just mentioned.
05:42His name's Terry Barbuie.
05:43Actually, right now I'm in Edwards, Colorado,
05:45about 15 minutes west of Vail.
05:48Terry, a long time ago,
05:49and I won't bore you with that story,
05:51he moved to Breckenridge,
05:52but him and I's partnership still exists
05:54to a certain extent.
05:54We have one of our restaurants,
05:56our burger joint, Flipside, still in Breck.
05:59And when I asked him to come to Atlanta,
06:02he says, I never want to create bad karma.
06:04Buy me a plane ticket.
06:05And so when Bobby called me in like 2005, six
06:08and said, hey, I'm looking to do something in Chicago,
06:11it felt like he was in my seat
06:14and I was in Terry's seat.
06:15You know, I'd had eight years of education.
06:18I heard this guy's voice, this passion, this drive.
06:22He was calm.
06:23He understood business.
06:25And I said, I don't want to create bad karma.
06:28Buy me a plane ticket.
06:29So we met up there and then 2008 happened.
06:35So things kind of melted down
06:37as far as trying to do any new projects,
06:39but we really enjoyed each other's company.
06:41He moved back to Cleveland, started a family,
06:43was doing his lawyer thing with his father in insurance law.
06:47And in 2014, this opportunity came across my plate.
06:51I had this vision of doing an outdoor nightclub
06:54in Cleveland, which people thought, what are you doing?
06:58It makes no sense.
07:00I felt like it did, you know, I'm a math guy.
07:02So I ran the math and I felt that
07:05even though it was only 16 weeks long,
07:07I always admired the ice cream business.
07:08I said, man, if I could just open an ice cream store
07:11in the summer and get out of Cleveland for the winter,
07:13I'd be a happy man.
07:14So it felt like a big version of an ice cream store.
07:17And so I talked to Bobby.
07:20I'm not an operator, you know,
07:21I'm more of a designer visionary type person
07:24on the restaurant side and on the other things I did,
07:27you know, Terry was really the operations
07:29and on the restaurant side,
07:32Chef Shawn Monday out of Hudson became my partner
07:35and doing some of the restaurants,
07:36but I wanted to get back into the nightlife business.
07:39And Bobby was the perfect fit and the perfect partner.
07:43And I said, hey, you want to do this with me?
07:46And he's took him a half a second to say yes.
07:49And that's when Ford was created.
07:50And back then there was a dirt road leading to the flats.
07:53There was nothing down there.
07:54There just was a vision in our heads
07:57to create the newest entertainment district in Cleveland.
07:59It's a waterfront property.
08:01There's not too many major cities
08:03that you can blare heavy EDM music
08:07till 2.30 in the morning right in downtown Cleveland
08:11or any major city market.
08:13And that's what the vision took hold.
08:15You know, if you felt like you could do enough
08:17during those 16 weeks, it would make sense.
08:20And it took us some time to figure it out
08:21after we got started.
08:23We were successful from day one, fortunately,
08:25but we weren't as successful as we needed to be.
08:28And we continue to do some other projects.
08:30You know, I don't want to bore you
08:32with a too long of a story,
08:33but, you know, today, you know, as you mentioned,
08:37we have concepts in California, Illinois, Florida, Ohio.
08:45And I think we're actually pushing
08:46close to almost a thousand employees right now,
08:48part-time.
08:49Oh, really?
08:50Yeah.
08:51Wow.
08:52We might've lost track at 500.
08:53Bobby, when he says that you bought into this vision,
08:59how many people, do you remember the first person
09:01that said you were crazy?
09:03Yeah.
09:05No, but I remember how many times people turned us down
09:09when we were trying to raise capital.
09:10Okay.
09:11I remember those stories
09:12because they all came back to us the next couple of years
09:14and wanted to buy in.
09:16Okay.
09:17So it worked out well.
09:18I mean, we, you know, once we kind of established
09:21what we wanted to do,
09:22I mean, at that point, it was not just about,
09:28I think the one thing that I would say about our company
09:31is pretty early on, we had a vision of doing,
09:35you know, multiple brands centered around entertainment.
09:39Now, what that was has evolved.
09:42I mean, if you told us we'd be in, you know,
09:45disco and country music heavy right now in 2013, 14,
09:50probably would have said that
09:51that doesn't sound like the path.
09:54But once we started a forge,
09:55like what the core competency of the business was,
09:58which was, hey, how do we entertain people?
10:01We do sell a lot of alcohol.
10:03And how do we do it around music, food, whatever,
10:07that became, you know, the case study
10:10over the next seven, eight years.
10:13And, you know, we've gotten now really,
10:17we have multiple brands,
10:19but at the center of them is really,
10:20we're entertainment driven.
10:22I mean, we're throwing great parties,
10:23whether it's involves food or doesn't involve food
10:26or involves dance floors or whatever.
10:28And, you know, that's grown strategically over time
10:32with different partnerships
10:33and great relationships we've made over time.
10:36But I think originally to your question,
10:39yeah, I mean, a lot of people said it was crazy,
10:42but I think when people started to experience it,
10:45they got it.
10:46A lot of people never understood like the math behind it,
10:48how it was financially successful,
10:50but we did.
10:52And so it was just honing in, you know,
10:55a lot of things you could talk about in your shows,
10:57it was honing in some of the talent costs,
10:59some of the cogs, some labor.
11:01And once we did that, we were in a good spot.
11:03So the namesake of the company Forward is in its,
11:07you know, just finished its ninth year
11:09in the pure nightclub sector.
11:11That's very rare.
11:14Why is that rare?
11:16You know, they're typically just
11:19a hit quick type of business model.
11:22Traditionally on the nightlife side has been that way.
11:25You know, there's some outliers there,
11:27but most of them can make a lot of money
11:30in a short amount of time.
11:31But when somebody new opens around the block,
11:34they take that crowd and, you know,
11:36you find yourself in a pivot or a reconcept mode.
11:40But what it really did, so that's been great.
11:43And knowing that, you know,
11:45is why we've tried to put our stamp
11:47using kind of niche concepts.
11:49And I mentioned country music and disco
11:52as some of our other brands.
11:55We've gotten more longevity
11:57and we'll get more longevity out of those
11:58because they're really like niche into that market,
12:02whatever they might be.
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12:43One of the things that happened
12:45when we were building forward
12:46and one of the things that was part of the business model
12:49and what I was pitching to the investors,
12:51and I had investors from our restaurant success.
12:55And previously, like in the nineties,
12:57as I mentioned, it started in Atlanta.
12:58It was all nightclub driven.
13:01And 9-11, when it happened,
13:05people don't, I don't necessarily know
13:07if they remembered so much in the restaurant industry
13:09or the bar industry.
13:11People went out and drank.
13:13They went out and drowned in their showers.
13:14They wanted to sit at the bar stool
13:16and talk to their friends,
13:18but they didn't want to dance.
13:21So the nightlife, the nightclub sector really took a hit.
13:26And my investors that I was working with at the time,
13:29we had tremendous success and they all passed on forward.
13:33Their mindset was just Cleveland has crappy weather
13:36and it doesn't make sense being open only 16 weeks.
13:40I can't see you guys are gonna get rained out,
13:42but we did a weather survey.
13:45We figured it out.
13:46It really does not rain that much.
13:48And when it rains, it's a quick shower you can get through.
13:51But back to your point, to answer your question,
13:53one of the parts of our business model
13:55was Ford reinvents itself every year.
13:59It's open 16, 17 weeks.
14:02So that means it's closed 30 plus weeks a year.
14:06So you have 30 weeks of anticipation
14:09and that's the trick to it.
14:10The real trick to that in Cleveland market,
14:13you go to Vegas, these that are more touristy markets
14:16and you kind of reinvent yourself
14:18with new crowds coming in all the time.
14:20But in a city like Cleveland, which is kind of small,
14:23as Bobby mentioned, the newest club tends to be the hit,
14:26but Ford's outdoors.
14:28So it has that advantage.
14:29It's the only place in the city
14:31where you could play music at that volume.
14:33And every year we redo things and people are,
14:38they have cabin fever.
14:39They just wanna get outside.
14:41And that was really part of our pitch.
14:43It wasn't a, hey, we're gonna crush it in three year pitch.
14:47We were in this mindset and Bobby and I preach this,
14:50slow and steady wins the race.
14:52I think if you go fast and furious,
14:53you're setting yourself up for a lot of problems.
14:56And then a lot of people think, my God, oh, I'm crushing it.
14:59And then three years in, they forgot about the details
15:03and they forgot about the longevity of the business.
15:05And yeah, they made a lot of money in three years.
15:07And usually those people go out and spend a lot of money
15:10and increase their lifestyle.
15:11And now you got to support that.
15:13And so I think it's something really important
15:14to think about as you move forward in this business
15:16that we think about all the time
15:18is the longevity has to be a primary factor in your mind,
15:23not just the instantaneous success.
15:26It's more important to make less money now
15:29and create longevity for the brand
15:31than it is to try to bring everything you can
15:33to the bottom line at the beginning.
15:36Bobby, when you go back
15:37to your early nightclub promotion days,
15:40what are the lessons that you've learned
15:42that you've applied to forward?
15:46I mean, you guys have been dubbed the Ibiza of the Midwest.
15:50You've won so many different accolades.
15:51You have so many different stars.
15:53We were just talking before this interview started
15:57about Shaq spinning during the NBA All-Star Game.
16:01Can you share any of the lessons
16:03that you took from those early days?
16:07Yeah, I think early on,
16:08especially when I was at those venues,
16:13constantly open to close.
16:15I mean, I think the first thing is,
16:17is that providing a great customer experience for everybody,
16:24not just who's ever spending the most money that night,
16:28has to be the focus of the brand, right?
16:33People shy away from clubs sometimes
16:35because it can be a little bit
16:37of an intimidating experience, right?
16:39You can use the big markets like Vegas.
16:41You don't know how to get in.
16:43There's this and that.
16:44I think the one thing we did,
16:45and it was a product of being in Cleveland
16:48because we're a non-transient market,
16:51meaning I'm dealing with the same customer,
16:53hopefully, week over week over week.
16:56You go to Vegas once a year, once every two years,
17:00it's like, you're not gonna get that level of treatment.
17:03So for us, early on,
17:05and I had learned this because I was around,
17:08I predominantly, early, early on,
17:11was working at country, Jack Nicklaus Country Clubs,
17:14where there needed to be a very high level of service.
17:17To me, everybody was the same when I was brought up.
17:21If a club I was working at,
17:22Muirfield Village in Columbus,
17:25they had 300 members.
17:26Those 300 members were all important to me.
17:28And when we opened,
17:29I think the one thing we did a good job of
17:32is we were just treating everybody like,
17:36hey, I need you back next week,
17:38so I better take care of you this week.
17:40And some of those people spent a lot of money
17:42and some didn't,
17:43but you still need that base crowd.
17:48We talk about it all the time.
17:49You still need that base crowd.
17:51It's like the early resos in restaurant life.
17:55It's so important to be full early
17:58and to develop those client relationships
18:02because I can't tell you the amount of people
18:04that started off as customers just coming through the door,
18:07buying a ticket, hanging out on the dance floor.
18:10Then they grew up a little bit,
18:12they get a better job,
18:13and all of a sudden they're buying bottles
18:15and spending, they're a $15,000 a year summer guy.
18:22That's how it all got started.
18:24So I think it was out of necessity, though.
18:28The market dictated that we had to be that way,
18:31and I think I just had that mindset fairly naturally.
18:35And I really wanted and liked that part of the business,
18:38so that's how we really developed that base
18:43and it was a skill that hopefully got passed on
18:46to a lot of staff.
18:49Michael, I'd love to hear,
18:51was there any point of failure
18:54or was there an aha moment
18:55of when you realized for you to truly grow,
18:58you really needed to build a team,
19:00a team around you that instead of designing the thing,
19:04trying to run the thing,
19:07you can't grow to 1,000 employees
19:09unless you start to recruit higher level talent
19:11to run different parts of the business.
19:13Can you share maybe a failure
19:15or maybe a mentor that might've taught you
19:17something along the way?
19:21Yeah, there were a lot of failures.
19:24So I mean, I started with my story originally.
19:28I mean, we had a concept that was proven in other markets
19:34and the Atlanta market was way busier,
19:38elbow to elbow in the streets type of market.
19:41We thought we would just crush it
19:43selling this late night food.
19:45Yeah.
19:46We had no idea that the market
19:47was not gonna be acceptant of it.
19:50So I think early on that first punch in the face
19:56made me realize the importance of pivoting
19:58and not waiting too long to pivot when you need to.
20:03We did a concept in Atlanta off of that.
20:06We had a great chef that did the catering events
20:09at one of our places as we grew and he was amazing.
20:14And he was super amazing.
20:16We'd have these sit down dinners, five, 10 people.
20:20He'd cook us the test food, blow us away.
20:22He wasn't capable of cooking for 300.
20:24We found that out the minute we opened.
20:27We weren't prepared.
20:28We were learning lessons.
20:30I wasn't brought up in the industry.
20:31I wasn't trained in the industry.
20:33A lot of times back then,
20:33I call it drinking from the fire hydrant.
20:36So Terry Barbu taught me a ton about design
20:41in the industry and compression.
20:42And we have an acronym in our company called CSAW.
20:46It stands for Cleanliness, Sound,
20:47Atmosphere, Lighting, Temperature, and Smell.
20:50And if we feel like, if we focus on those things
20:53in the nightlife sector, we can provide a great experience.
20:58But that was developed over time.
21:01And we added to that a PF instead of a PS
21:04and it could PS at the end of the letter.
21:05And the PF stands for perfect food.
21:08So that means how's it plated?
21:09What's the plates look like?
21:11How does it taste?
21:12Is it warm?
21:13Is it at the right temperature?
21:14All those different things.
21:16And Bobby and I, when we were in,
21:19I'll give you another example of,
21:21I'm gonna call it a failure.
21:22I mean, we've always been able to scratch and claw
21:24and at least get most of the money back, let's say,
21:26but you don't wanna buy yourself a job.
21:32And so, but we did a lot of times.
21:33And so, I'd say we bought ourselves a job,
21:36but we bought ourselves an education.
21:38So we opened up a club called Magnolia,
21:41Catty Corner to Forward, an indoor club.
21:44And our thought process was, well, in the winter,
21:46the forward people need somewhere to go.
21:49And secondly, if it does rain,
21:51we can move some of that crowd over.
21:53But it was a 4,000 square foot space,
21:55forward's 22,000 square feet.
21:57Maybe not the best logic.
21:59You know, again, a learning experience.
22:01I'm not sure a mathematician would.
22:03Right, right, right.
22:04Yeah, I'm admitting to my faults.
22:06I'm lying on the ground for you guys right now.
22:08You know, because I know a lot of people
22:09are listening to this.
22:10And I think one of the important things,
22:12there's so many resources out there
22:14to learn from other people's mistakes.
22:15You don't have to make your own.
22:16Yeah.
22:17You know, if you're listening to someone
22:18who's gone through the grinder,
22:20it's, listen, it's not all pretty.
22:23You know, Bobby and I have gone through a lot of struggles.
22:26But going back to Magnolia,
22:28it was an instant success because it was the new club.
22:30But it's exactly what we were talking about before.
22:33It didn't renew itself every year.
22:35It was indoors and it had to compete
22:38with forward in the summer,
22:40which is the busiest time of the year.
22:42So at the busiest time of the year, we were the slowest.
22:45Yeah.
22:45And we did okay out of the gate
22:47and we were struggling towards the end.
22:49And, you know, COVID was obviously very awful
22:52for everybody in this industry,
22:54but turned out to be a really big pivot point for us.
22:57So we had to close, obviously.
23:00And we knew that Magnolia was on its last breath.
23:03And we had time.
23:04I mean, it was the first time we really had time.
23:06I mean, it was such a pleasure to have time
23:08and nothing to do.
23:10And we brainstormed.
23:12We didn't stop.
23:12Like if I was to give anybody advice,
23:14you know, I give this example to my staff sometimes.
23:16And picture yourself, somebody holding you underwater.
23:19They're just joking around.
23:20They're joking around.
23:21They're holding you underwater.
23:23And you think, oh, this is just a game.
23:25And then after 10 seconds,
23:26it's starting to get a little more serious.
23:2820 seconds, even more, 30, maybe more.
23:30What's going on?
23:31Is he really, what's he really doing?
23:32What's the one thought that comes to your mind?
23:35The only thought that comes to your mind is I want air.
23:37You forgot all your problems,
23:38all your different, you know, trials and tribulations.
23:43You've become completely focused.
23:44And I think that's what we did.
23:46So we had this non-air moment of COVID.
23:49And instead of just sitting there and crying in our milk
23:51or whatever you want to call it,
23:53we refocused, we rededicated ourselves.
23:55We worked harder than ever.
23:56You know, there's 24 hours in a day.
23:59We all get it.
24:00That's the only guarantee that we all get.
24:02And it just depends on how you want to use them.
24:05I think we all know when we're productive and when we're not.
24:07So you can make those choices.
24:09And so you can sit in bed with your feelings,
24:10driving you into bed and keeping you there,
24:13or you can use your brain and get the heck out of bed
24:15to start working.
24:16And that's what we did.
24:17And that's where Goodnight John Boy was born,
24:19which is a 70s disco designed after my childhood basement.
24:23So it looks like my childhood basement
24:24with the disco floor inside.
24:26And it was funny, Bobby and I were fighting.
24:28I wanted disco, he wanted country.
24:30And fortunately we were able to get a second lease.
24:33So we were able to do them both.
24:35And the other thing that COVID provided us
24:36was we were able to hook up with Chase Rice
24:40because of COVID.
24:40We probably would have never met him otherwise.
24:42So obviously he couldn't tour as normal.
24:45There was, they started doing these shows
24:48in vacated mall parking lots
24:50where you actually had to socially distance your car.
24:53So our car had to be parked six feet from another car.
24:56And it wasn't very busy.
24:58And he knew about us through a friend, Dante Deanna,
25:01one of our other partners who's based out of Chicago,
25:05hooked us up with him.
25:07And we sat in his trailer and we just bullshitted.
25:08And it was, COVID made it that time
25:10where you could sit around.
25:11I'm sorry, am I allowed to say bullshit?
25:12Oh yeah, this is for entrepreneurs.
25:14All right, I want to be careful.
25:15I apologize.
25:16No, Shaquille O'Neal drops F-bombs on the show.
25:18So it's totally, everything's all good.
25:20I'll keep it at bullshit in case my kids listen.
25:23So, you know, it gave us extra time.
25:27You know, he wasn't on stage every day.
25:29And we went down to his farm in Tennessee
25:33and out just about 20 minutes out to him.
25:35Maybe it's about 35 minutes outside of Nashville.
25:37It's beautiful, 140 acres, Buffalo roaming the place.
25:41And it gave me my next design thought.
25:43And that's what we leaned into.
25:44I mean, I think we've been really good
25:46leaning into our concepts from that standpoint.
25:49You know, we leaned into,
25:50we're going to make a bar look like his farm.
25:53But those are the things, you know,
25:55back to your question about, you know, being knocked down.
25:57I think those are your biggest learning lessons.
25:59It's just how you're going to approach it.
26:02Are you going to approach it as a quitter?
26:03Are you going to approach it as someone
26:04who's going to learn from it?
26:06And I have a great partner.
26:07And so going back to that, early on for me,
26:12I had Terry, I had someone to rely on.
26:14He left in 2005.
26:17He wanted to, he wanted to get out of Cleveland.
26:20And that's why he ended up in the mountains.
26:21He's a mountain guy.
26:22And I always knew that the people around me,
26:27we have another partner named Matt Knoth.
26:28He helps immensely with the design,
26:30super talented artist.
26:32I always knew that those people are important.
26:35I guess I probably didn't analyze as much as I do today.
26:38And if I was to give a word of advice, analyze it earlier.
26:41It took me a while.
26:42I mean, look, I started in 96, 97.
26:45It's almost been 30 years.
26:46Overnight success.
26:47Right.
26:48And even when Bobby joined the team,
26:49I knew I needed an operational partner,
26:51but it was just a broad, like throw it out there.
26:53I need an operational partner and let's see what happens.
26:58If I had a little more experience
26:59and a little more knowledge,
27:00and there's so many more resources available today,
27:02this podcast included.
27:03Yeah.
27:04I might've been a little bit more forward thinking,
27:06no pun intended, but today we are.
27:11Today we're super forward thinking.
27:12We're super calculated.
27:13We know what we need to do to pivot
27:15and work on different concepts.
27:17You know, we just opened up in San Diego.
27:19Good night, John boy.
27:20We just opened up in Chicago.
27:22And it's not easy.
27:24It's not like your backyard in Cleveland
27:26where everybody knows you.
27:27There's a lot of work to be done.
27:28There's some pivoting we're making right now.
27:31And, you know, that's, I guess that's my message.
27:34My message is don't sit back
27:35and try to necessarily figure,
27:38think that things are automatically gonna change
27:40or get better.
27:41You know, marketing yourself into success
27:42is a little bit tricky.
27:44I think on the restaurant side, sometimes it can happen.
27:47People get to eat your food over and over again,
27:49but we're more vibe dining and more entertainment.
27:52And I think if you, you know,
27:55you got to work on it every day
27:56and grind to continue to bring those customers back,
27:59as Bobby mentioned,
28:01but you also can be smart enough not to,
28:03not to like sit in the same spot
28:06and not do anything differently.
28:08You know, we don't want to perfect the mistake.
28:10I, first of all, I want to make sure I,
28:13I love your analogy about drowning
28:15and only thinking about air.
28:17I mean, it's so applicable.
28:19We all went through the pandemic.
28:21We hate talking about the pandemic,
28:22but clarity is something that helps you survive, right?
28:28Why San Diego?
28:30Well, you know, I travel the country a lot.
28:32I mean, it's primarily what I do.
28:34I travel the country, scouting new locations.
28:35We have a brokerage firm as well,
28:37but I look for districts that feel right for us.
28:42I get a sixth sense in my, you know, gut.
28:46We also, you know, obviously look at demos.
28:48We have cell phone data,
28:49all that kind of stuff that everybody would look at.
28:51But at the end of the day,
28:52you look for districts that make sense.
28:55California wasn't that much on our radar.
28:59It's, you know, pretty far distance,
29:00obviously from Cleveland, you can't get much farther.
29:03And, but when I went to San Diego, I kind of felt at home.
29:09It feels a little Midwestern there.
29:11It's not LA, it's not ritzy and glam.
29:15You know, as I mentioned,
29:16Good Night, John Boy is a duplication of my basement,
29:19the Farrah Fawcett poster, the old wood paneling,
29:22the god awful linoleum, all those things.
29:25And you're not gonna put that in a glitzy atmosphere.
29:28And San Diego is down to earth.
29:30It's a great town and it's a great party out there.
29:35There's a lot of density
29:36in the entertainment district there.
29:37I don't even know the number of bars,
29:39but it's gotta be north of a hundred.
29:41Wow.
29:42Yeah, and see a lot of bodies on the streets,
29:44a lot of feel for it.
29:46And it just felt right to me.
29:47The demos matched up, A,
29:49but the bigger thing was it just felt right.
29:53Bobby, how do you look at storytelling
29:56from a brand perspective?
29:58It's hard when you're a hospitality group
30:00to put the hospitality group in front
30:02because you guys are always going to be highlighting
30:05the brands, the different concepts that you're growing.
30:08How do you look at it from a storytelling standpoint?
30:12Yeah, I think when we first opened,
30:14regardless of whether it's a new concept
30:17or if it's a existing concept
30:20and we're doing another location,
30:22we're still trying to get across to our customer
30:25what we are.
30:26We talk about this in meetings all the time.
30:28It's like, what are we doing?
30:29What are we, who are we for?
30:32And it has to be very intentional
30:35in not only the social media, the website,
30:39that side of it, but consistent in venue experience.
30:44We do talk a lot about matching what we're showing
30:46to what the person's experiencing.
30:49I think that matters.
30:50I mean, if we're marketing using imagery
30:53and maybe language and photography
30:58that person's going to come into the venue
31:00and just be like, yeah, this is not what we're experiencing,
31:05you know, we'll fail pretty quick.
31:07That experience, when we're trying to build a crowd
31:10for a Friday night, I mean, that's starting on Monday
31:14with some social media posts.
31:15Maybe we're talking to different clients.
31:18We have a calendar up.
31:21Maybe we have a band or DJ that's coming in town
31:23that we want to highlight, stuff like that.
31:25So we're building Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday
31:28because people are making decisions
31:30as to where they want to go.
31:32And really that story starts early
31:34and then we have to deliver on it
31:37when they come into the venue.
31:39From a staff standpoint, from a drink standpoint,
31:41from a food standpoint,
31:42certainly from an entertainment standpoint,
31:44like we're always trying to throw the best party.
31:49Now, it doesn't always need to be like full.
31:51Some of the great times that our venues happen
31:53when they're like half full and you have a lot of space,
31:55but we try to match all that so that it makes sense.
32:00And that story about what we are involves different people.
32:04So, you know, Michael mentioned Chase Rice
32:05as being one of our business partners.
32:09And we have a sub part of the farm called I Hate Cowboys,
32:13which is after one of his songs that he wrote with Hardy
32:17about how he hates hot cowboys
32:19because there's the coolest people in the room.
32:21So people see the name and this is a great example.
32:24People see the name I Hate Cowboys
32:26and they're like, what is that place?
32:27And they come in and it's like the most Western
32:31Montana vibe that we have in the portfolio
32:35with a lot of bourbons and we serve fried chicken.
32:38And then we do this kind of cool mix
32:40of like Johnny Cash music and hip hop.
32:44So it's like this real yin and yang.
32:46And that story starts like early
32:49with how people are gonna experience the venue
32:53and what they're being told and what they're being shown.
32:56So hopefully all of those pieces along the way add up
32:59and it always ends, I will say this,
33:01always ends with the staff interaction.
33:03We, as an owner, especially now,
33:06when I was at Forward by myself,
33:09I would talk to hundreds of people a night.
33:10Now we're doing north of seven, 8,000 covers
33:14across the country on any given night.
33:17I mean, I'm gonna talk to maybe seven people.
33:22But I always tell the staff,
33:26of all those seven, 8,000 covers we're gonna do,
33:30the only thing I can guarantee is that they are going
33:32to interact with at least one staff member.
33:34Maybe it's a bathroom attendant,
33:36maybe it's a security guard, maybe it's a door person,
33:40maybe it's a bartender.
33:43And they have to kind of complete the story
33:46as to what we are in that level of hospitality
33:49as to what we're doing with their uniform,
33:51with their vernacular, with their body language.
33:55We're in loud environments.
33:56A lot of times you can't even talk to this customer,
34:00but you have to get across that really strong sense
34:03of engagement and that the customer belongs.
34:07And if we do that, we've kind of completed the story.
34:10That's a full circle experience of somebody.
34:13Not a lot of people find us by accident, to be honest.
34:16I mean, there's not just, hey, I see this.
34:18I mean, most people intentionally try to experience us,
34:23think they know what they're getting.
34:25Do we deliver?
34:26That's the question.
34:28So my grandfather, he taught me to stay curious,
34:31to get involved, to ask for help.
34:34We started this show back in 2022.
34:37We pitched Toast, our primary technology partner.
34:40We use them at our barbecue restaurants here in San Diego.
34:42We said, we have this crazy idea for a show.
34:44We're gonna go to entrepreneur.
34:46We're gonna bring on the best hospitality professionals,
34:49the best storytellers, and we're gonna share this content
34:52on all platforms so that people can learn.
34:57I think that's really the biggest takeaway.
34:59When I was in school, I thought,
35:02I thought I wanted to go to business school,
35:04and I started taking some business classes,
35:06some introductory business classes,
35:08and I was bored to death,
35:09until they brought in an entrepreneur that came in
35:11and told me the stuff that you guys are sharing today.
35:14Like, that's when I started taking notes.
35:16That's when I was like, holy shit,
35:17this is the stuff that I need to know.
35:20Can you guys talk a little bit about technology
35:22and how you guys view technology in your venues?
35:25Yeah, we're experimenting with a lot of,
35:28our tech stack is grown probably over the last 12 months
35:32because there's been some new stuff.
35:33I mean, obviously, we're toast across the board now.
35:36Awesome.
35:37Which has been nice.
35:39We were Aloha, we experimented one venue, Toast,
35:44and really, I deal with the front end,
35:46Michael deals with the back end,
35:47but when the first people we went to were the staff.
35:52We're like, you know,
35:53because they had been in Aloha for a long time,
35:55when, I mean, you're talking,
35:57this is probably six, 15, 16, 17.
36:01That was kind of the first time where the staff was like,
36:04hey, this is a product that is making,
36:06it's really making our life easier.
36:10We're ringing faster.
36:11We're in a speed industry.
36:12I mean, we have to move product fast,
36:17because we have narrow windows.
36:19So Toast has been great.
36:20And then we brought on,
36:21we're a seven rooms based booking system
36:25on the Nightlife side.
36:28We're using a technology called Beat Gig
36:31on the booking side for bands,
36:33which has been good because we want to track
36:38how bands perform.
36:40This was, Michael and I,
36:41we would have these conversations,
36:43like we wake up in the morning
36:44and typically we talk right away.
36:45And he'd be like, how's the band last night?
36:47And I'd be like, they were awesome.
36:49And he'd be like, well, why is the ring only X?
36:51I'd be like, I don't know.
36:53Maybe they suck, I don't know.
36:55And what Beat Gig does is it's pulling data
36:58from bands' set times in,
37:00it's pulling Toast data while the band's performing.
37:04And it is taking into other things like weather
37:07and time of year and special events,
37:10but it's giving us immediate feedback as to,
37:12okay, the band, and we share it with the bands.
37:15We're telling them, listen, this is a business, man.
37:17If I'm paying you, you got to move the needle.
37:19And it's the same thing with DJs and stuff at other venues.
37:24I think, and Michael's really spearheads this,
37:28but we spend more time talking about our band DJs'
37:32set performance, their speed, what they want to do.
37:36I gotta imagine it's more than anybody
37:38because we're spending tens of hours weekly
37:42reviewing, recording, commenting,
37:46talking to people about that
37:48because it's really a lifeblood.
37:49I mean, that music has to be perfect in our venues.
37:51And I tell cover bands,
37:56the day you sell tickets to fill our venue,
37:59you can play whatever songs you want,
38:01but when the people are coming expecting
38:04to hear certain songs,
38:05so it's Morgan Wall and Luke Combs or whatever,
38:07I mean, we need to play them.
38:09And that's gotta happen,
38:10whether you've played them 300 times or not.
38:14So Beat Gig on that end,
38:16and then TrainUal is something we're onboarding
38:19this quarter as our,
38:21I don't know if you use it for your training manuals,
38:22but TrainUal is a derivative of EOS,
38:27which is an operating system we work off of.
38:30It's basically interactive
38:33and putting all of your training materials onto one cloud
38:38and very easy to use website.
38:39Us using Dropbox has become tough.
38:41How do we get everybody on the same page,
38:44row in both the right direction
38:45from systems and procedures?
38:47And that's, we've outgrown just normal file sharing.
38:51So that's kind of what our tech stack's looking like,
38:55but it's much more on our side as the employees
38:59than it is customer facing.
39:01I think customer, we're still like,
39:02hey, we're gonna give you a great experience.
39:04We're not using, we're taking orders from people.
39:07We're not using like,
39:09we could easily have just screens at the bars
39:11or fill your own beer or whatever stations.
39:15We haven't done that.
39:15I mean, we're still people-driven in that regard.
39:18Michael, when are you gonna get the international bug?
39:23I already have it, but.
39:24Did I expose some breaking news that we're not ready?
39:29No, no, I already have it.
39:30I mean, I haven't, we haven't bridged that gap yet.
39:33I think it's really important to make sure.
39:36There's two aspects.
39:38I mean, as I mentioned before,
39:40you wanna always be driven
39:42and I have no problem falling forward.
39:44I've lost a ton of money, made a ton of money,
39:47lost it again, lots of learning experiences,
39:50but I have an obligation,
39:52Bobby and I have an obligation to our team.
39:54They put a lot of hard work in.
39:55Our turnover rate is next to nothing,
39:58which we're really proud of.
39:59They're depending on us.
40:00So we still gotta grow,
40:02we gotta grow in a smart manner
40:04where we don't jeopardize too much
40:07of the financial wherewithal of the company.
40:10So I would tell you that we're several years out.
40:13We actually, Bobby probably could speak to it
40:14because I can't remember his name,
40:15but we had someone come in
40:16who has tons of experience in Dubai
40:18who saw Good Night, John Boy and Welcome to the Farm
40:21and thought it would be amazing, the concepts there.
40:25So it's a place I'm definitely gonna go visit.
40:29And there's the typical places you would think of,
40:33you know, maybe Paris and England
40:39and some of the other places overseas
40:42that kind of interest us.
40:45I would tell you that we're probably five years out
40:47from that, but we're definitely gonna do it.
40:49And it's one of the big goals for the company.
40:52Can't wait to have you guys back on
40:53when you have your international locations opened up.
40:57We'll be looking forward to it.
40:59Can't wait.
41:00You know what, it's worth mentioning,
41:03but you know, Bobby mentioned some tech,
41:03you know, from the construction side of things,
41:06Asana for scheduling our construction,
41:10it provides a, you know, kind of a punch list functionality.
41:13We also use Todoist.
41:15I use it personally a lot.
41:16The company doesn't use it.
41:18You know, not everybody in the company uses it.
41:20It's just a simple to-do list
41:22that you can share with people.
41:23Sometimes they tell you that,
41:25don't overcomplicate your life when it comes to things.
41:27You know, adding tech, it needs to be strategic.
41:30We have a lot of it,
41:30and we were very strategic about doing it.
41:33You over-tech yourself and you get,
41:34you just get sucked into the weeds.
41:36And we know how emails can chew us up, right?
41:39So then what do we got?
41:40We got text messages.
41:40We have Slack.
41:41There's a million other services.
41:43And then before you know it, you're not looking at anything.
41:46So you really need to be efficient
41:47with what you're choosing to use.
41:50And if you choose to use it, lean into it hard.
41:53Because if you don't lean into it hard
41:55and give it a fair chance, you'll never know if it works.
41:57So once you lean into it hard,
41:58if it don't work, cut bait.
42:01If it works, lean into it even harder.
42:04Bobby, what's the one thing that Michael always says?
42:09What's a Michael mantra?
42:12Oh man, there's a lot of those.
42:17No, you know what, it's not a mantra so much
42:22as it's a questioning.
42:24And this is why I brought,
42:26bring it back to the music a little bit.
42:29I will say, I mean, sometimes I just wanna,
42:31when he asked me how the DJ was or how the band was,
42:33I just wanna strangle him.
42:35I'm like, you know, I'll tell you if they're not good.
42:38But that, he, Michael has a great ability
42:42of making sure things are right.
42:46I think a lot of times in the industry,
42:48you can settle on a sales number.
42:51Like if the sales were right,
42:54if the sales were high, we're fine, don't do it.
42:57Don't question the night or question the event
43:01or question the design of the facility.
43:03Like sometimes he'll just say, hey, I gotta change this
43:07because this sound in this particular region is bad.
43:11I'm like, well, nobody even knows.
43:12I mean, it's not affecting us at all.
43:14And he makes those changes.
43:17I mean, that is, it's not like perfectionist,
43:22but I think it's inquisitive.
43:23I think, and that's probably the characteristic
43:26that I think drives the company.
43:27I'm a bit more of like a people macro person.
43:31You know, we've done some personal,
43:32I would say when you're working with partners,
43:36I think personality testing helps
43:39because it gives you some insight
43:41into why people are doing things certain ways.
43:44And so that's the characteristics, not maybe a saying,
43:48but it's just, you know, how was the music?
43:51And on the flip side of that,
43:52there's times where like the sales number isn't great,
43:56but we both agree that what happened that night
43:58was very fun.
43:59So we got to live with it and that's okay.
44:02Similar to the restaurant, hey, we put out great food.
44:05Yeah, we only did 50 covers or whatever, but it was great.
44:09You know, that's a win and that's a winning night.
44:12And we experienced that all the time.
44:15Snowy weather places is like a hundred people showed up
44:18and then, no, but they had a great time.
44:20They'll tell everybody about it, that'll build.
44:23So that's kind of the mannerism, I guess.
44:26I was going to say, it was like,
44:28probably a little bit of pressure being on the pod,
44:30but there's, I always tell him,
44:33he hears me say this all the time, you know,
44:35pep in your step, zip in your zag,
44:37eyes in the back of your head, you know,
44:40don't worry, we got this.
44:42And he's right about, you know,
44:45our company mission is to throw a great party.
44:49And that doesn't always mean that you're a hundred percent
44:51full.
44:53I've had places, and I brought up Blizzard Day.
44:56You know, I get 10 people singing songs inside of a bar
44:58in a Blizzard Day that truck their way down into the snow.
45:02So that's better moments than having a place packed
45:06when it's easy to do it.
45:07Overcoming hurdles that, you know, everybody's fearful.
45:10Like anybody who's listening to this right now,
45:12you're going to be scared.
45:14You're going to have fearful moments.
45:17What Bobby and I have really done is we try to lean
45:19into that, you know, it's good to be scared.
45:22It's good to be uncomfortable.
45:23Being comfortable is boring, you know,
45:26and that's what you can do to really drive your company.
45:28Get uncomfortable, move forward.
45:31Don't be scared.
45:32Nothing bad's going to happen.
45:34You're just going to learn from it, worst case scenario.
45:36So, and the flip side to Bobby, I can give you his mantra.
45:40Yeah, I need his mantra.
45:41Yeah, because I bug him all the time.
45:44It's simple, three words, I got this.
45:46Like basically, leave me the fuck alone.
45:48Leave me the fuck alone.
45:51I got this, I'll figure it out.
45:54Yeah, that does come up quite a bit.
45:57Forward Hospitality Group, we'll put links
46:00to all the social handles, to all of the concepts.
46:03Both of you gentlemen, are you both on LinkedIn?
46:06What's the best way for people to reach out?
46:10I'm on LinkedIn.
46:11I use that a little more on my legal side,
46:13but just Instagram, direct message, I check all of them.
46:18Perfect, we'll put the Instagram link
46:20in the bio, into the article.
46:23As always, we appreciate you guys.
46:26This is why we do the show.
46:28Deep knowledge, we love what you're building.
46:30If you ever make it, when you make it to San Diego,
46:32now that you guys have a venue here,
46:34let me know, come get some barbecue.
46:36Love to meet up in person, but thank you guys for listening.
46:39We appreciate it.
46:40Stay curious, get involved,
46:42and don't be afraid to ask for help.
46:43We'll catch you all next week.
46:45All right, thanks for your time.
46:48Thank you for listening to Restaurant Influencers.
46:51If you want to get in touch with me,
46:52I am weirdly available at Sean P. Walshef,
46:55S-H-A-W-N-P-W-A-L-C-H-E-F.
47:00Cali Barbecue Media has other shows.
47:03You can check out Digital Hospitality.
47:05We've been doing that show since 2017.
47:07We also just launched a show, season two,
47:10Family Style on YouTube with Toast.
47:13And if you are a restaurant brand or a hospitality brand,
47:16and you want to launch your own show,
47:17Cali Barbecue Media can help you.
47:20Recently, we just launched Room for Seconds
47:23with Greg Majewski.
47:24It is an incredible insight into leadership,
47:28into hospitality, into enterprise restaurants,
47:31and franchise, franchisee relationships.
47:34Take a look at Room for Seconds.
47:36And if you're ready to start a show,
47:38reach out to us, betheshow.media.
47:41We can't wait to work with you.