In five days, TikTok as we know it could be finished in the US. The Verge's Lauren Feiner joins the show to discuss last week's Supreme Court arguments over the ban, why things don't look good for TikTok, and what's likely to happen in the next five days. After that, Kickstarter CEO Everette Taylor talks about the state of the gadget inventor, and what it means to be part of the creator economy in 2025. Finally, we answer a question from the Vergecast Hotline about magic-link logins, and why passwords remain such a disaster.
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TechTranscript
00:00:00Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of crowdfunded socks.
00:00:04I'm your friend David Pierce, and it is 5.30 in the morning,
00:00:07and I am in the Charlotte, North Carolina airport on my way home from CES.
00:00:11It was really fun at CES this year, actually.
00:00:13It wasn't like the newsiest or splashiest CES of all time,
00:00:17but AI was everywhere, even though no one knows what to do with AI.
00:00:21There were tons of wearables.
00:00:23The health tech I actually thought was really interesting.
00:00:25Pool robots, for some reason, were absolutely everywhere.
00:00:29I don't know how much interesting technology there is in the pool robot space.
00:00:33If you're into that, let me know.
00:00:34I'd love to hear it.
00:00:35But they were absolutely everywhere.
00:00:38Super fun show.
00:00:38And by the way, thank you to everybody who came out to our live Vergecasts at CES.
00:00:43It was super fun just to get to hang out with all of you
00:00:45and talk about tech and CES and all of our feelings about everything.
00:00:49We're going to do more shows like that too,
00:00:50so if you missed this one, keep an eye out because we want to do more live stuff.
00:00:54It's just fun getting to do this with all of you guys.
00:00:57For now, we have some CES-adjacent stuff to talk about, I would say.
00:01:02We're going to do two things on today's show.
00:01:04First, we're going to talk to Lauren Feiner about the TikTok ban
00:01:08and the looming changes coming at Meta
00:01:11and basically the huge social landscape change that feels like it's coming,
00:01:17potentially, like in the next few days and weeks.
00:01:20It's going to be a really interesting moment in this space,
00:01:22and we're going to talk about it.
00:01:23Then I'm going to talk to Everett Taylor, who's the CEO of Kickstarter,
00:01:27Kickstarter was at CES last week,
00:01:28but I talked to Everett right before CES
00:01:31about what it means to be Kickstarter right now.
00:01:34I just spent the week talking to startups
00:01:36who are desperately trying to figure out how to make and ship
00:01:40and get products in front of people,
00:01:42and he had some really interesting thoughts
00:01:44on what it means to be a tech creator right now
00:01:47and what it means to make products in 2025
00:01:50and how this landscape is changing for people
00:01:53who just want to be out there making things and selling them to people.
00:01:57Really interesting talking to him about it.
00:01:58I've had sort of mixed feelings about Kickstarter
00:02:00for the whole time I've been covering tech,
00:02:02and it was fun to process that with some of them.
00:02:04We also have a really fun question from the Vergecast hotline.
00:02:07Lots to get to this week.
00:02:08It's going to be a really fun show.
00:02:09All of that is coming up in just a second,
00:02:11but first, I just, while I was doing this,
00:02:13walked completely the wrong direction from my gate,
00:02:16and now I have to turn around and not miss my flight.
00:02:19This is the Vergecast. We'll be right back.
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00:03:04Welcome back. All right, let's get into this.
00:03:06So today, if you're listening to this on Tuesday, it's January 14th.
00:03:10On January 19th, we will hit the deadline imposed by a bill
00:03:13that says either TikTok has to be divested from ByteDance
00:03:16or will be banned in the United States.
00:03:18It's actually not exactly that simple,
00:03:21and we're going to talk about the ways in which it's not exactly that simple,
00:03:24but it is kind of that simple.
00:03:26TikTok, as we know it, as the thing that you use now,
00:03:30either will or will not still be here in five days.
00:03:33And I think we are getting an increasingly clear sense
00:03:36of which of those two things might actually happen,
00:03:38especially after the bill that originally banned TikTok
00:03:43and would do so on January 19th
00:03:46was argued in front of the Supreme Court.
00:03:47We have new information. We have a sense of what's going to happen.
00:03:50I don't think it looks great for TikTok,
00:03:52but let's get into all of what's to come.
00:03:55Lauren Feiner has been covering all of this for us
00:03:58and is having an extremely chill beginning to 2025,
00:04:01and she's here now to help us walk through all of it.
00:04:03Lauren Feiner, welcome back.
00:04:05Thanks for having me.
00:04:06Just a super chill way to start the year, I would say.
00:04:08Totally. Very, very normal.
00:04:12And it's just going to keep happening.
00:04:13You're going to be on this show a lot in the next few months,
00:04:15so I'm really sorry in advance.
00:04:17Looking forward to it.
00:04:18So let's just rewind the TikTok story very slightly.
00:04:21I mostly want to talk about kind of where we are now
00:04:23and what's happening in the next week,
00:04:25but give me the sort of Cliff Notes version
00:04:28of how we ended up in the Supreme Court last Friday.
00:04:31Yeah, so if we want to start from the very beginning,
00:04:34we've got to go back a few years
00:04:35to when Donald Trump was president the first time,
00:04:38and he tried to do a TikTok ban through an executive order.
00:04:42That ends up getting shot down in the court
00:04:44because of some kind of legal reasons.
00:04:47Then, you know, everyone kind of forgets about it.
00:04:50There's a committee in the federal government
00:04:53that's looking into a possible sale
00:04:55or what could be done to mitigate the risks
00:04:57that they see of TikTok being owned
00:05:00by a China-based parent company, ByteDance.
00:05:03But all things considered,
00:05:05everyone kind of forgets that this is happening,
00:05:07and we don't really hear that much about it.
00:05:10Then go back to last year,
00:05:13and all of a sudden we see all of this momentum
00:05:16around a bill that could ban TikTok.
00:05:19And there'd been things like this before,
00:05:21but none of them have really caught on.
00:05:23And all of a sudden,
00:05:25this one is just like rocketing with support.
00:05:28And we end up seeing a vote,
00:05:31an overwhelming vote in the House to pass this bill
00:05:34after lawmakers got briefed on the classified information.
00:05:39And then we see it kind of quickly move through the Senate,
00:05:42and we see broad bipartisan support for this bill.
00:05:45And President Biden quickly signs it into law.
00:05:48So that starts the clock on this ban deadline,
00:05:52which is now January 19th.
00:05:54So that's where we were at.
00:05:57And then TikTok all along has been fighting this.
00:06:00They've given ByteDance,
00:06:01their parent company has given no indication
00:06:03that they actually would be interested in selling the app.
00:06:07Meanwhile, we've seen a few kind of people
00:06:09come out of the woodwork saying,
00:06:11we would love to buy the app,
00:06:13but it's still not clear that it is for sale
00:06:16or that China would allow it to be for sale,
00:06:18even if ByteDance wanted it to be.
00:06:21And that ends up landing us in the Supreme Court.
00:06:25First, the case went to the DC Circuit Court,
00:06:28which had exclusive jurisdiction
00:06:31per the text of the law to see this.
00:06:35And they decided, a three-judge panel decided,
00:06:39all three judges said that this is a constitutional law
00:06:42does not violate the First Amendment,
00:06:44even though it could result
00:06:46in the ousting of a speech platform.
00:06:49Then TikTok appeals the ruling,
00:06:51we end up in the Supreme Court.
00:06:53And that's where we were on Friday
00:06:54when the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in this case.
00:06:57Okay. And I would say it had been
00:07:00barreling toward the Supreme Court
00:07:01kind of from day one, right?
00:07:04I remember talking about this
00:07:05when the law was first even being debated,
00:07:08that it was like, this is going to end up
00:07:09in front of the Supreme Court in one way or another.
00:07:11So this is kind of,
00:07:12this is the capstone we had been waiting for for months.
00:07:15Exactly. This was a long time coming.
00:07:17This was always going to be a fight
00:07:18between two really fundamental interests
00:07:22of the US government,
00:07:23which are national security and free expression.
00:07:26So this was always kind of barreling toward this place.
00:07:30Okay. And it seems like one of the things
00:07:31that happened a lot in the arguments on Friday
00:07:36was the question of,
00:07:37is this even a thing about free speech?
00:07:41Which surprised me,
00:07:42and it seemed like surprised some people
00:07:43that that was even up for debate about,
00:07:47are we even having a conversation about free speech?
00:07:50Walk me through that a little bit.
00:07:52Yeah, I think, I honestly wasn't surprised
00:07:54by that framing that we saw by a lot of the justices,
00:07:58because if you just look directly at the text of the law
00:08:02as it's written,
00:08:03it's written to talk about
00:08:06the foreign adversary control of A.
00:08:10social media app.
00:08:13So in the text of the law,
00:08:15it doesn't say anything about speech,
00:08:17about who says what,
00:08:19or what kinds of speech is allowed.
00:08:22It's purely about who is allowed to own a social media app.
00:08:27And we have foreign ownership rules
00:08:30over certain kinds of other kinds of media.
00:08:34So it's not a wholly different concept,
00:08:37but obviously no law like this
00:08:40has ever really gotten to this point before.
00:08:43But then how do you square that with the fact
00:08:46that simultaneously in Congress and elsewhere,
00:08:49we've been endlessly litigating propaganda on TikTok
00:08:53and the kinds of things that people are seeing?
00:08:55And there were huge arguments,
00:08:56and there's been some suggestion
00:08:58that one of the things that people got
00:08:59in this infamous briefing last year
00:09:03was about pro-Palestine posts on TikTok
00:09:06and the way that the algorithm is shaping public opinion.
00:09:09I understand that it's not in the law,
00:09:11but it feels like if you're looking at this,
00:09:13we have to be talking about content a little bit, right?
00:09:17Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely
00:09:19all things that the court will be thinking about.
00:09:23I think part of what seems to mitigate that,
00:09:27at least during the arguments for some of the justices,
00:09:31might be that there's both,
00:09:33there's kind of these two justifications
00:09:35that the government has given for this law,
00:09:37which is both the fear that China
00:09:40could somehow influence ByteDance
00:09:43to alter the algorithm that TikTok relies on
00:09:47to push a certain narrative to American users.
00:09:51And I think a lot of lawmakers saw
00:09:54the very pro-Palestinian content on TikTok
00:09:57as an example of what could be done,
00:09:59whether or not that was actually coming from China or not.
00:10:02And obviously, there's plenty of reasons
00:10:04why more content might be skewed one way or another
00:10:09on a certain platform based on who's there or whatever.
00:10:13But I think that was an example to them of
00:10:15if China wanted to use this for nefarious reasons
00:10:19to push anti-Taiwan content or something like that,
00:10:24I think that was an example to them
00:10:25of how it might be used.
00:10:27So I think there's that.
00:10:28And then there's also the second reasoning
00:10:30that I think might be even more compelling
00:10:33to the Supreme Court about data security.
00:10:37And that is something that I think is less,
00:10:40touches speech a little bit less
00:10:42than talking about propaganda
00:10:45and how an algorithm could be used
00:10:47to push that kind of content.
00:10:48OK.
00:10:49Yeah, I do think it seemed interesting.
00:10:53Even just watching the live stream,
00:10:54this is the most closely I've ever paid attention
00:10:56to a Supreme Court thing.
00:10:58And they do a good job of just kind of
00:11:01calling bullshit on everybody,
00:11:03which is sort of fun that it's like
00:11:04everybody comes up for their turn
00:11:06being told they're liars by the nine justices,
00:11:09which is a dynamic.
00:11:10I actually really appreciate it.
00:11:12But there was a certain sense in which
00:11:14the TikTok lawyers come up and they're like,
00:11:16OK, this is about free speech.
00:11:18And they're like, not really.
00:11:19And then the government lawyers come up
00:11:21and they're like, this is about corporate ownership.
00:11:23And they're like, is it?
00:11:25It's kind of mind bending.
00:11:27But I guess the idea here is
00:11:29they're just poking at everybody
00:11:30trying to figure out
00:11:31what makes the most sense to them.
00:11:34Right, exactly.
00:11:34And I think you hear them kind of asking questions
00:11:37where they're prodding,
00:11:38like, what are the outer bounds of this?
00:11:40If we were to write something like this,
00:11:41what would that mean?
00:11:42Or how would we do this?
00:11:43So that's a good story.
00:11:45I don't mean to interrupt,
00:11:45but you brought up the thing I want to talk about
00:11:47that I was going to forget about,
00:11:48which is Jeff Bezos, who kept coming up
00:11:51in, I think, the way that you're describing.
00:11:54Why did poor Jeff Bezos
00:11:56keep getting pulled into this whole thing?
00:11:58Oh, yeah.
00:11:59Okay, so Bezos kept being brought up
00:12:04in these arguments as kind of an analogy,
00:12:06because obviously, Bezos, founder of Amazon,
00:12:09who also now owns the Washington Post,
00:12:14I think what they were using him as kind of a foil
00:12:18or of like, what would happen if
00:12:22there was some kind of influence
00:12:24on this owner of a U.S.-based media company
00:12:30by a foreign adversary?
00:12:31And how is that any different
00:12:33from the ownership structure
00:12:34that we see with TikTok?
00:12:36Like, for example, at one point,
00:12:39they talked about what if the Chinese government
00:12:42had kidnapped Bezos' children
00:12:45and held them hostage
00:12:46so that he would print propaganda?
00:12:49Like, how is that any different
00:12:50than a media company
00:12:52that's owned by a foreign adversary
00:12:54versus one that's being—
00:12:57having a lot of influence
00:12:58by a foreign adversary
00:12:59through perhaps nefarious means?
00:13:02What is the point of that analogy?
00:13:04Like, what's in the—
00:13:05I think it was—
00:13:06was it Sonia Sotomayor who brought that up?
00:13:09I think it was.
00:13:10Whichever justice it was,
00:13:11what is the point of that analogy
00:13:13in this case, do you think?
00:13:15I think the idea is that, you know,
00:13:18I think there's this question of
00:13:20what's the kind of, like,
00:13:21the starting point of the influence
00:13:24and the negative influence
00:13:25that Congress wants to root out?
00:13:27Like, is it this, like, foreign ownership?
00:13:30Or is it, you know,
00:13:32this influence that could happen
00:13:34on even an American company
00:13:36through some other means?
00:13:38So I think it's kind of trying to find
00:13:41where is that line.
00:13:43Okay.
00:13:43And then, I guess, as a result,
00:13:46what is the government's role
00:13:48in that moment, right?
00:13:50Like, at what point is the government
00:13:51supposed to get involved here
00:13:53seems to be one of the open questions.
00:13:57Right, right.
00:13:58Okay.
00:13:58And, like, who is allowed to print propaganda
00:14:01because of what influence?
00:14:03And, you know, I think those are
00:14:04kind of the main questions there.
00:14:06Okay, that makes sense.
00:14:07So it seemed like coming out
00:14:10of these arguments,
00:14:11the odds of TikTok winning—
00:14:15and we should talk about what winning means—
00:14:17but the odds of TikTok winning
00:14:19seemed to go down
00:14:21in a lot of people's minds.
00:14:22Was that your read, too?
00:14:24That was my read.
00:14:25I think, you know,
00:14:26I think the only justice
00:14:28who stood out to me
00:14:29as potentially on TikTok's side
00:14:31was Justice Gorsuch,
00:14:33who seemed to have concerns about,
00:14:35you know, the evidence in this case.
00:14:38And just, you know,
00:14:40I think a lot of the big questions
00:14:42that TikTok has brought up here.
00:14:43But I don't think we saw a clear,
00:14:46you know, vote of support for TikTok
00:14:49from any of the other justices.
00:14:50I think it's possible
00:14:51they get some more on their side,
00:14:53but I think it was, you know,
00:14:55less clear there.
00:14:56And I think my feeling was that
00:15:00the questioning was harder on TikTok
00:15:03or seemed to be that
00:15:04their thinking was more in line
00:15:05with the U.S. government.
00:15:07But, of course, you know,
00:15:08it can be hard to say
00:15:10because they're always talking
00:15:11in hypotheticals
00:15:12and aren't completely
00:15:13tipping their hands.
00:15:14Right.
00:15:15Yeah, I mean, I keep coming back
00:15:16to this question of
00:15:18how real versus theoretical
00:15:21the threat actually is.
00:15:23And it seems like
00:15:25we are still very much
00:15:26in this place of
00:15:27China could do things
00:15:29and TikTok could do things
00:15:30and the algorithm
00:15:31could be doing things.
00:15:32And the most real piece of it,
00:15:35I think, seems to be
00:15:36the data collection piece.
00:15:38And I wonder if that's why
00:15:40the lawyers continue to focus on it,
00:15:41because that is one thing
00:15:42that is definitely happening
00:15:44and is provably happening,
00:15:46is that TikTok
00:15:47and by extension ByteDance
00:15:48and by extension, potentially,
00:15:49the Chinese government
00:15:50are collecting vast quantities of data
00:15:52about whatever it is,
00:15:54like almost 200 million people
00:15:55in the United States.
00:15:57That seems bad, sure.
00:15:59But I still I'm so hung up
00:16:01on this thing that, like,
00:16:02I think it was in the spring
00:16:03that a bunch of a bunch of people
00:16:05in Congress got a briefing
00:16:07that was classified about something,
00:16:10some threat the TikTok posed.
00:16:11And then they came out of that briefing
00:16:13and voted 50 to 0 to ban it.
00:16:15Right. So, like, that seems bad.
00:16:17And then it passed through the House.
00:16:18It passed through the Senate.
00:16:19Like everybody who has seen something
00:16:23appears to come out
00:16:23on the other side saying,
00:16:25this is a problem.
00:16:26We have to get rid of TikTok.
00:16:27But we have never been told
00:16:28what that something is,
00:16:30what was in the briefing,
00:16:31what we actually know.
00:16:32And at this point, even even
00:16:34the Supreme Court and these lawyers
00:16:36seem to be arguing mostly in theory,
00:16:40as opposed to about,
00:16:41like, the real stuff
00:16:42that is really happening
00:16:43on the ground right now.
00:16:45Did I miss anything?
00:16:46Are there are there concrete things
00:16:48going on that we're talking about now
00:16:49that we haven't been in the past?
00:16:51Or are we still kind of
00:16:53just talking about
00:16:54what TikTok might be?
00:16:56I mean, I think that's true
00:16:57as far as we're publicly aware.
00:17:00I think, you know,
00:17:01we don't really know
00:17:03what was said behind closed doors,
00:17:05what sort of classified information
00:17:07the government does possess.
00:17:09So I don't think we can say for sure
00:17:11that they're not aware
00:17:12of any actual ongoing
00:17:15or, you know, past action
00:17:17that the Chinese government
00:17:18has taken with regards to TikTok.
00:17:20But, you know, I think
00:17:23the way that it's been discussed
00:17:25from people who've seen
00:17:26the information at least
00:17:28doesn't seem to me
00:17:29that there was necessarily
00:17:31that kind of thing going on,
00:17:33although, you know, hard to say,
00:17:35you know, maybe they just can't
00:17:36even allude to it.
00:17:38Right.
00:17:39But I think it at least seems like
00:17:42their U.S. intelligence officials
00:17:45feel like there is enough
00:17:47possibility there
00:17:48or access for the Chinese government
00:17:51to potentially gain to bite dance
00:17:54and thereby to TikTok
00:17:56and American users
00:17:57that they feel like
00:17:58it's a sufficient enough
00:17:59threat to guard against.
00:18:01And I think maybe feel that
00:18:03why should we wait
00:18:04for an attack to happen
00:18:05to take actions against it?
00:18:07Right.
00:18:08Yeah. And I I'm so conflicted
00:18:10on that line of thinking.
00:18:11And it does feel like
00:18:12it underpins a lot of this,
00:18:13where it goes back to the
00:18:14what are we even
00:18:15arguing about question, right?
00:18:16And I think there is either something
00:18:19that we're arguing about
00:18:20that we the public
00:18:21don't yet know about
00:18:23or we are arguing in theory.
00:18:26And it feels it feels
00:18:27very different to me,
00:18:28which one of those
00:18:28it turns out to be.
00:18:29And I'm not sure
00:18:30we're ever going to know.
00:18:30And that drives me insane.
00:18:32Yeah.
00:18:33But so the other thing
00:18:34that kept coming up
00:18:35is the question of basically
00:18:36why hasn't TikTok just sold yet?
00:18:38Like why?
00:18:39Why even go through
00:18:40all of this hassle?
00:18:41Just let somebody write you a check
00:18:43for many tens of billions of dollars
00:18:44and move on with your life.
00:18:45And I think TikTok's argument
00:18:47seems to be that
00:18:48it's not actually that simple,
00:18:49that actually selling
00:18:50isn't really an option.
00:18:52Can you explain that a little bit?
00:18:54What is what is the argument
00:18:55that selling is not only
00:18:57not a good idea,
00:18:57but sort of impossible?
00:18:59Yeah. So I think even before that,
00:19:01I would say, you know,
00:19:02any business that's
00:19:04in active litigation,
00:19:06they're not going to want to
00:19:08kind of give the court a sense that,
00:19:10you know, a sale is possible,
00:19:12that, you know,
00:19:13what what the government
00:19:14wants them to do,
00:19:15they're going to be able
00:19:16to just do easily.
00:19:17That's fair.
00:19:18If they could just go take the money,
00:19:19they have every reason
00:19:20to not tell you they can do that.
00:19:22That is fair.
00:19:22Right. I think it's in TikTok
00:19:24and ByteDance's interest
00:19:25to exhaust every legal route
00:19:26before they really pursue a sale.
00:19:30At the same time,
00:19:31I think TikTok's argument
00:19:32is that this is really
00:19:34not super feasible
00:19:36to just separate from ByteDance.
00:19:38You know, there's so much like
00:19:39code intermixed,
00:19:40like that we're relying
00:19:42on this algorithm,
00:19:44you know, just to extract
00:19:46is like really an arduous task.
00:19:48It's not as simple as just like,
00:19:50you know, cutting off at one point.
00:19:52So I think that's probably true.
00:19:53You know, a lot of this is like
00:19:56years of technology being built,
00:20:00and I don't think it's going to be
00:20:01that simple just to separate.
00:20:03At the same time,
00:20:04I think another part of the argument
00:20:06is just that China won't sell the app.
00:20:10And I think that's something
00:20:11that the D.C. Circuit said,
00:20:12well, that's not our problem.
00:20:16And, you know, I think basically
00:20:18China is able to block the sale
00:20:21if they want to.
00:20:22They are able to,
00:20:23they consider the algorithm an export,
00:20:26so they could definitely clamp down on that
00:20:28and say, ByteDance,
00:20:29you cannot sell this algorithm.
00:20:32Beyond that, you know,
00:20:35groups like Project Liberty
00:20:36are interested in just buying the app
00:20:37without the algorithm,
00:20:38which would mean like,
00:20:39you know, the underlying platform,
00:20:42the user base, the content,
00:20:44things like that.
00:20:46But even then,
00:20:47China could kind of exert its influence
00:20:49on ByteDance and say,
00:20:50you can't do that.
00:20:52And, you know, an expert
00:20:54in, you know, kind of China business
00:20:57told me that this is something
00:21:00that might be in the country's interest
00:21:02to hang on to TikTok,
00:21:03both because they have markets
00:21:06in other parts of the country
00:21:07where TikTok could still be active.
00:21:10And they also might be betting,
00:21:11hey, you know, someday,
00:21:13maybe TikTok will be allowed
00:21:14back in the U.S.
00:21:15And then we want to be the ones
00:21:17able to capitalize on that.
00:21:19Yeah, it's a really interesting
00:21:22sort of parallel universe.
00:21:23I don't think it's going to happen.
00:21:26It seems very unlikely to me
00:21:27that TikTok changes hands
00:21:29in some meaningful way
00:21:30in the next five days.
00:21:31I could be wrong.
00:21:32I sort of hope I'm wrong,
00:21:33because I think it'll be fascinating
00:21:34to see what that looks like.
00:21:35But one of the things
00:21:37that one of the lawyers
00:21:38is saying in those arguments
00:21:39is that even if you allow TikTok
00:21:42to be sold or exchange hands
00:21:44in some way,
00:21:46it completely changes what TikTok is,
00:21:48which is the thing I find absolutely true.
00:21:51That seems right to me,
00:21:52that right under new owners
00:21:53with a new team,
00:21:54with a new code base,
00:21:55you have a thing that looks like TikTok,
00:21:56but is in every real practical way,
00:21:59not TikTok.
00:22:00And I think the question
00:22:01of what that would look like
00:22:03is just as a person
00:22:04who is interested in products
00:22:06and like how we interact with technology,
00:22:08I find that so fascinating
00:22:09because it's never really happened before.
00:22:11That like, what if you took
00:22:12the thing everyone cared about
00:22:13and just like,
00:22:15ship of thesis it
00:22:16and just like changed all the parts?
00:22:18Would it still be TikTok?
00:22:19I think the answer is no,
00:22:20but it would be really,
00:22:21it would be really interesting to find out.
00:22:22But I do find that argument
00:22:24that even if you,
00:22:25if you sort of keep a thing
00:22:27called TikTok alive,
00:22:28but change everything about it,
00:22:30it kills TikTok.
00:22:31I think, I kind of think that's right.
00:22:32That feels right to me.
00:22:34I, I'm, yeah,
00:22:36I, I think it's hard to say.
00:22:37I think there is a huge benefit
00:22:40of having 170 million
00:22:42American users on the app already
00:22:44that can't be discounted
00:22:46and all the content
00:22:47that already exists.
00:22:48I mean, that's a lot to work with.
00:22:51Even if you don't have,
00:22:53you know,
00:22:53this like secret sauce algorithm
00:22:55that ByteDance has come up with.
00:22:57I think, you know,
00:22:58I could see how it might be possible
00:23:00to overlay another algorithm in here
00:23:02that is able to do something pretty good.
00:23:07Yeah, no, I, I, again, I,
00:23:08like this is sort of the future
00:23:09I'm hoping for
00:23:10because I think it would just be fascinating.
00:23:12I would just love to see
00:23:13all of that play out,
00:23:13but I don't think it's going to happen.
00:23:15What do you think is going to happen here?
00:23:16Like the, we have five days
00:23:18from when this episode publishes
00:23:20to the, the January 19th deadline
00:23:23of some kind.
00:23:24It seems like to me,
00:23:26the two most likely possibilities are that
00:23:29either the Supreme Court issues
00:23:31some kind of stay.
00:23:34The ban is a day before
00:23:36the Trump inauguration,
00:23:37and it seems reasonably logical
00:23:39that the Supreme Court might say,
00:23:40we're just going to let
00:23:41the next administration decide
00:23:42what it wants to do with this.
00:23:43Or some kind of mix
00:23:47of those things will happen that,
00:23:49like, and you raised this possibility
00:23:51in a story you wrote about it,
00:23:52that like the ban might happen,
00:23:54but then Trump might come in
00:23:55and decide not to care.
00:23:56But then that has some weird implications.
00:23:59Like what, what is your sense of,
00:24:00fast forward seven days from now,
00:24:02what do you think's going on?
00:24:03Yeah. So, I mean,
00:24:04my best educated guess is that
00:24:08the ban does go into effect
00:24:10on January 19th.
00:24:11The Supreme Court lets it happen.
00:24:14And then Trump gets inaugurated
00:24:16the next day.
00:24:17Perhaps he instructs his DOJ
00:24:19not to enforce it.
00:24:22But probably Google and Apple
00:24:24still follow it because,
00:24:26as was pointed out in oral arguments,
00:24:29there's a five year statute
00:24:31of limitation on this law.
00:24:33So if those companies break the law now,
00:24:36they could still be prosecuted
00:24:38for it later on.
00:24:40Unless, you know,
00:24:40they're able to argue
00:24:41that we were doing this
00:24:43under the promise
00:24:45that we wouldn't be prosecuted.
00:24:47And perhaps they'll win that argument,
00:24:50but it is still risky
00:24:51for those companies.
00:24:53So the two sort of practical pieces
00:24:55of the ban,
00:24:56if I have this right,
00:24:57are app stores can't host the app.
00:25:00So that's like what you're saying,
00:25:01where Google and Apple come in.
00:25:02And I think they get fined
00:25:04for every person who downloads the app
00:25:05after the 19th is the idea.
00:25:07Yeah, they get fined $5,000 per user
00:25:10that accesses the app.
00:25:11So that really adds up.
00:25:13Yeah. So, OK, so the theory then is
00:25:16even if you make it
00:25:17through the four years,
00:25:18some new president comes in
00:25:20in four years and says,
00:25:22just kidding,
00:25:23I'm going to enforce all four years
00:25:25of $5,000 per person fines.
00:25:28Right. Or Trump gets mad at Tim Cook
00:25:31or Sundar Pichai.
00:25:32Oh, sure.
00:25:33And then he just holds this
00:25:34over his interesting.
00:25:35OK, although, you know,
00:25:37I think, again,
00:25:38what came up during oral arguments
00:25:40is perhaps they'd have
00:25:41some sort of due process claim to say,
00:25:44you know, we were operating
00:25:45under this promise of non-enforcement
00:25:47and maybe they would win that.
00:25:48But again, risky given how much
00:25:51they have at stake in penalties.
00:25:53OK, yeah. So best case scenario,
00:25:55that's a giant mess.
00:25:57And then the other sort
00:25:58of practical side of it is
00:26:01U.S. providers are banned
00:26:02from hosting TikTok
00:26:03in any sort of meaningful way.
00:26:05Right. So it's not like
00:26:07illegal to use TikTok
00:26:08after January 19th.
00:26:10It's just that essentially
00:26:12everyone who provides TikTok
00:26:13to you is no longer allowed to.
00:26:15So it has the effect of a ban,
00:26:17but like it's not against the law
00:26:18to have TikTok on your phone
00:26:19after January 19th, right?
00:26:21Exactly. And the app
00:26:22isn't just going to like poof
00:26:23and disappear from your phone.
00:26:25It'll still be there.
00:26:26Just if you haven't downloaded it,
00:26:27you won't be able to.
00:26:29And if you have downloaded it,
00:26:31it's probably within
00:26:33a few weeks, months.
00:26:34We don't really know.
00:26:35We'll just start to degrade
00:26:36to a point that it becomes
00:26:37basically unusable.
00:26:38Yeah, I think anyone who has ever
00:26:40had an old iPad
00:26:41and like app by app,
00:26:43it just sort of stops working
00:26:44because they don't update anymore
00:26:45because they don't get
00:26:46the security updates or whatever.
00:26:47Like that's what will happen to TikTok.
00:26:48And it'll be sometime.
00:26:50Yeah, in the in the weeks
00:26:51or months afterwards,
00:26:53like every individual feature
00:26:54will just start to break
00:26:55and then there won't
00:26:56be any more videos.
00:26:57And then and then
00:26:58that'll just be the end.
00:27:00So, OK, so you think something,
00:27:03something this will happen
00:27:04on January 19th.
00:27:06What do you think happens
00:27:07on, say, January 21st?
00:27:10Well, we'll stop for
00:27:11an inauguration day
00:27:12because, you know,
00:27:13there's a whole thing
00:27:13that's got to happen.
00:27:16What's your read on
00:27:17what might happen after that?
00:27:18What is kind of the
00:27:19betting favorite for,
00:27:21you know, the week after?
00:27:23I mean, I think it's possible
00:27:24that Trump then does
00:27:26instruct his DOJ
00:27:27not to enforce the law.
00:27:29And then that just,
00:27:31you know, because at least for him,
00:27:33that would give him a chance to say,
00:27:35look, I tried to save TikTok.
00:27:37And if Apple and Google
00:27:38don't want to let you have it,
00:27:40then that's on them.
00:27:42So I think it's possible
00:27:44we see something like that.
00:27:45And then it's on those companies
00:27:47to decide what risk
00:27:48they're willing to take.
00:27:50I don't know that
00:27:50they're going to be willing
00:27:51to stick their necks out
00:27:52for another company,
00:27:55one with which Google,
00:27:57for example,
00:27:58competes with directly
00:27:59through YouTube Shorts.
00:28:00So I think we will see
00:28:04some form of a ban.
00:28:05I think after that point,
00:28:07maybe we see some discussions
00:28:10about a deal.
00:28:11I think maybe Trump,
00:28:13instead of trying to get the DOJ
00:28:15not to enforce the law,
00:28:16tries to use it as leverage
00:28:18to extract some kind of deal
00:28:20to end up making TikTok
00:28:23in compliance with the law.
00:28:25But like we were discussing earlier,
00:28:26I think it seems unlikely
00:28:28that China would actually
00:28:29be willing to sell the app.
00:28:30And that's really,
00:28:32that's really the bottom line
00:28:33is it's up to China
00:28:35to decide to sell it.
00:28:36And I think that's a big part
00:28:37of why we haven't seen
00:28:38a sale up to this point.
00:28:39Right, right.
00:28:40And do you think
00:28:41if you were to tell 12 months ago,
00:28:43you that this is the point
00:28:45that we've landed on
00:28:46January 14th of 2025,
00:28:49would you have been surprised?
00:28:50I would have been surprised.
00:28:52Yeah, I guess that would have been
00:28:54before this bill was even introduced,
00:28:56I'm pretty sure.
00:28:57I would have been surprised
00:28:59mostly because not much happens
00:29:02to, you know,
00:29:03to the point of being
00:29:05introduced into law
00:29:08and, you know,
00:29:09going to the Supreme Court
00:29:10in tech policy.
00:29:11You know, we've tried to get
00:29:13much more,
00:29:14you know, basic things
00:29:16passed in tech policy,
00:29:17like privacy legislation,
00:29:19you know, basic privacy protections.
00:29:21And that has been
00:29:23just held up in Congress
00:29:25for years and years and years.
00:29:26And somehow they were able to get,
00:29:29you know,
00:29:30hundreds of lawmakers
00:29:31behind this law
00:29:33in very short order.
00:29:34And we're now at the point
00:29:36that the Supreme Court
00:29:37is about to give a thumbs up
00:29:39or thumbs down on it, basically.
00:29:41Yeah.
00:29:42If you've trained me on one thing
00:29:44in the time that I've known you,
00:29:44it's that the speed of this is insane.
00:29:48A, the fact that it happened,
00:29:49that it managed to go through
00:29:50this whole process
00:29:52in a relatively bipartisan way
00:29:53is remarkable,
00:29:54given what happens to the tech.
00:29:56But also the fact that we did it
00:29:58in essentially like eight months
00:30:00is just unheard of.
00:30:01Like it's, yeah, it's.
00:30:02And given the fact that
00:30:03we had tried this before
00:30:05and it failed
00:30:06and everybody was mad
00:30:07for a long time,
00:30:07but kind of nothing happened.
00:30:08And then just all of a sudden,
00:30:10like poof out of nowhere
00:30:12and it just runs
00:30:13through this whole process
00:30:14in eight months
00:30:14and might actually finish
00:30:16on January 19th
00:30:18is just procedurally wild.
00:30:20Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:21I mean, this is extremely unusual
00:30:23for tech policy,
00:30:25for Congress in general.
00:30:26It's very much unprecedented.
00:30:28Yeah.
00:30:29All right.
00:30:29Before I let you go,
00:30:30let's just talk for five minutes
00:30:31about Meta.
00:30:32We talked a little bit about this
00:30:34on the show last week in Vegas.
00:30:36The moderation changes
00:30:37the company has been making.
00:30:39Mark Zuckerberg went on Joe Rogan
00:30:40and had a lot of thoughts
00:30:41about masculinity.
00:30:44We'll leave that to the side.
00:30:45I think there are a couple of stories
00:30:47we wrote that are very good
00:30:47that I'll put in the show notes
00:30:48that you should go read.
00:30:49But I'm particularly curious
00:30:51for you as a person covering
00:30:52like politics and policy.
00:30:56What do you make of all of these
00:30:57moves that are making?
00:30:58This is happening right
00:30:59before we inaugurate
00:31:00a new president,
00:31:01a new administration
00:31:02is about to come in.
00:31:04What are you seeing
00:31:05in the politicking of all of this?
00:31:08Yeah, so I think
00:31:10I kind of separate it
00:31:10into two buckets in my mind.
00:31:12The first bucket is like
00:31:14what normally happens
00:31:15when there's a change
00:31:16in administration
00:31:17and businesses realize,
00:31:19all right, we got to figure out
00:31:20how we're going to deal with this
00:31:21for the next four years.
00:31:23So, you know, I think things like
00:31:25having Joel Kaplan
00:31:27take over
00:31:27a lot of their policy operations
00:31:30makes sense.
00:31:30I think that's a very
00:31:32kind of standard move
00:31:33to kind of have someone
00:31:34who's more in line
00:31:35with the current administration
00:31:37lead your policy office.
00:31:38I also put the
00:31:39everybody donating
00:31:40to the inauguration fund
00:31:41in that same bucket.
00:31:43You can be cynical
00:31:44about that all you want,
00:31:44and you can be mad
00:31:45that companies don't live
00:31:46out their values, whatever.
00:31:47But like that is the most
00:31:49straightforward transactional
00:31:50we would like to be in a room
00:31:52with the new president
00:31:53more often move,
00:31:54and every company is going to do it.
00:31:56Right. I think no one's going to,
00:31:58none of these companies
00:31:59are going to just say,
00:32:01you know what?
00:32:01On principle,
00:32:02we're going to sit this one out.
00:32:04We're going to like,
00:32:05I don't think that's really
00:32:06in any of their interests.
00:32:08They want to have
00:32:09a seat at the table.
00:32:10They want to have
00:32:11a good starting point.
00:32:13And, you know,
00:32:14I don't think it's
00:32:15that big of a deal to them
00:32:16to donate a million dollars
00:32:18to these like
00:32:19multi-billion dollar corporations.
00:32:22So I think, yeah,
00:32:24that's definitely
00:32:24in the same bucket to me.
00:32:26And I think there's also
00:32:27the fact that Elon Musk
00:32:28is right in Trump's ear.
00:32:30And I think they realize
00:32:31if we're not at the table,
00:32:32then the only person
00:32:33they're hearing from in tech
00:32:35is Elon Musk.
00:32:36Do we want to go along
00:32:37with all the policies
00:32:38that only he is representing to Trump?
00:32:41So I think they all know,
00:32:42like, we need to,
00:32:43we need to be in play here.
00:32:45And I think a lot of the moves
00:32:46are about that.
00:32:48I think there's also,
00:32:49you know, things like
00:32:50the end of fact checking at Meta
00:32:53seems like something
00:32:53that maybe Mark Zuckerberg
00:32:55wanted to do for a while.
00:32:56And this is, you know,
00:32:58a good way for him to do it
00:32:59while also kind of
00:33:00gaining some points with Trump.
00:33:02Then I think there's
00:33:03like this other bucket
00:33:05where it's, you know,
00:33:06things that are really geared
00:33:08at Trump in particular,
00:33:09at, you know,
00:33:10this full Republican
00:33:11sweep across the government
00:33:13that we're going to see take over.
00:33:16And I think, you know,
00:33:18it's a recognition
00:33:18that the times have changed.
00:33:20We have to really change
00:33:22how we go about things.
00:33:24And also maybe perhaps a sense
00:33:26from within Zuckerberg himself
00:33:27that he's felt
00:33:30like we've gone too far
00:33:31or, you know,
00:33:32this isn't the way
00:33:33that I want to run this company.
00:33:34I think we've always seen him
00:33:36kind of say
00:33:37he doesn't want to be
00:33:38the speech police.
00:33:39He doesn't want to decide
00:33:40what's right and wrong.
00:33:41And I think we've seen
00:33:43that impulse take
00:33:44different iterations,
00:33:45whether it's the oversight board
00:33:47or something else.
00:33:48And now we're seeing it
00:33:49take shape with him
00:33:51trying to not involve fact checkers
00:33:53and to really loosen speech policies
00:33:57on his platforms.
00:33:58And I think the fact checking,
00:34:01again, I think seems like
00:34:02something he wanted to do
00:34:03for a long time.
00:34:04I think the changes to,
00:34:07you know, what sort of speech
00:34:08is allowed on meta platforms
00:34:11is probably like the more
00:34:13overall impactful thing,
00:34:14because there's just
00:34:15going to be a wider range
00:34:16of the kinds of speech
00:34:19that you're going to see
00:34:20on those platforms
00:34:22that I think a lot of users
00:34:23probably won't want to see.
00:34:24Yeah, I think one version
00:34:27of his thinking,
00:34:29he being Mark Zuckerberg,
00:34:30that I actually find,
00:34:33if not good,
00:34:34then at least sort of reasonable,
00:34:35is that I think he has spent
00:34:37a long time learning
00:34:40that trying to be out front
00:34:42of speech policy
00:34:43is a total waste of time.
00:34:44That caring about this stuff
00:34:47politically is all downside.
00:34:49And it has gained him nothing.
00:34:52And I think after four years
00:34:53of fighting with the Biden administration
00:34:54about all the bad things
00:34:55that are happening
00:34:55on meta platforms,
00:34:57he is now just like,
00:34:58you know what, screw it.
00:34:58Like, I don't care.
00:34:59There is now a president
00:35:00who doesn't care.
00:35:01Why on earth would I continue
00:35:03to fight this fight?
00:35:04All it does is cause me pain.
00:35:05And I think, A, that is
00:35:08a perfectly reasonable place
00:35:10for him to have landed.
00:35:11And B, I think that sucks, right?
00:35:13Like that is a real problem
00:35:15for a lot of people
00:35:16on a lot of platforms.
00:35:17But I also kind of understand
00:35:19how he got there.
00:35:19And it says a lot
00:35:21about our political environment
00:35:22that both of those things
00:35:23can be true at the same time.
00:35:25But I do wonder,
00:35:26are we just at a point now
00:35:27where we're just going
00:35:28to stop talking about speech policy
00:35:30because it's just a total waste
00:35:31of everybody's time and energy?
00:35:32I think that's highly possible.
00:35:35It feels so bleak to say out loud,
00:35:37but I honestly feel like
00:35:38that's where we are.
00:35:39No, I think so.
00:35:40I think, you know,
00:35:41we went from this world of like,
00:35:43you know, oh,
00:35:44social media platforms are so new
00:35:46and, you know, it's just the Wild West
00:35:48and everyone says whatever they want.
00:35:50And then realizing, OK, well,
00:35:52we can't get advertisers on here
00:35:54if we just have actual Nazis here
00:35:57and people don't want to see that stuff.
00:35:59And I think, you know,
00:36:00we went through kind of a big reckoning
00:36:02where we went a lot
00:36:03in the other direction.
00:36:05And then I think the companies realized,
00:36:08oh, actually by actively doing something
00:36:12around speech policies,
00:36:14we're getting a lot of flack
00:36:15because we're both being told
00:36:17we're not going far enough
00:36:18and we're being told we're going too far.
00:36:21And so we can't win.
00:36:22And so I think this is kind of,
00:36:24you know, Mark Zuckerberg
00:36:25throwing up his hand saying like,
00:36:27you know, more than half the country
00:36:29voted for Trump this time.
00:36:32And, you know, whatever,
00:36:34like, let's like not do something
00:36:36instead of doing something
00:36:37and we'll still get yelled at either way.
00:36:40Yeah. How much do you think this is about
00:36:43Mark Zuckerberg in particular?
00:36:45Because, you know,
00:36:46a lot has been made of Trump's
00:36:48prognostications about throwing
00:36:49Zuckerberg in jail for the rest of his life.
00:36:51And there has obviously
00:36:53been some tension here.
00:36:54But then on the flip side,
00:36:55I agree with you that watching him
00:36:58sit there with Joe Rogan,
00:36:59it felt like he was unloading
00:37:01a bunch of stuff that has been
00:37:02sitting on his chest for a very long time.
00:37:05So I guess this is sort of
00:37:07an impossible question to answer.
00:37:08But like, to what extent do you think
00:37:10this is him playing politics
00:37:11with a new president versus like
00:37:14freed by a new president
00:37:15to just say the things he already believed?
00:37:17And I'm sure it's some of both.
00:37:19Yeah, I definitely think it's both.
00:37:20I think, you know,
00:37:22if you're threatened by Donald Trump
00:37:25with being thrown in jail,
00:37:26you know, he says a lot of things
00:37:29and maybe he's not actually
00:37:30going to try to do that.
00:37:31But like, maybe he will.
00:37:33And I think you would want
00:37:34to get on his good side.
00:37:36So I'd imagine that's a factor
00:37:38in his thinking.
00:37:40At the same time, I think from
00:37:41a lot of recent interviews
00:37:43that Mark Zuckerberg has done,
00:37:44I think there's the sense that
00:37:45he's like sick of apologizing
00:37:47and he's like sick of
00:37:50having always been the bad guy
00:37:52and, you know, having to
00:37:53try to do the right thing
00:37:55and everyone yells at him
00:37:56no matter what.
00:37:57So I think it seems like
00:37:59it is somewhat a personal change
00:38:00in thinking of like,
00:38:02well, I can't please everyone.
00:38:03So let me please the person who
00:38:06has the most power here
00:38:08for the next four years.
00:38:09Right.
00:38:10Just to be clear,
00:38:10we don't feel bad for Mark Zuckerberg.
00:38:13Having to have spent
00:38:14all this time apologizing
00:38:15for the thing that you built.
00:38:16I don't feel that bad.
00:38:17Sorry, buddy.
00:38:19But yeah, and what I wonder is
00:38:22how much fallout
00:38:24that is going to have, right?
00:38:25Because he is like,
00:38:26we are in a moment where
00:38:27it is now really easy to say
00:38:30the things that people
00:38:31have been saying quietly
00:38:32for years loudly.
00:38:34And I think the the
00:38:35we're starting to see
00:38:36those policies start to shift.
00:38:37And we're starting to see that
00:38:38the like forced culture shift
00:38:41back to some things
00:38:42that had started to change,
00:38:44but now are being unwound again.
00:38:46And the question of like,
00:38:48is this just Mark?
00:38:50Is this just meta?
00:38:52Or is there a broader
00:38:54Silicon Valley culture
00:38:56change coming in?
00:38:56All of that to me is like
00:38:58one of the big questions
00:38:59of the next few months.
00:39:00And I got the sense,
00:39:02even just talking to folks
00:39:02after that Rogan podcast,
00:39:05that I think we're going
00:39:06to look back at that as a moment
00:39:08where somebody said
00:39:09the quiet parts really,
00:39:10really, really, really loud
00:39:12and got away with it.
00:39:13And now here we are.
00:39:15Yeah, I mean,
00:39:16I think we've definitely seen
00:39:17this culture shift in Silicon Valley.
00:39:19And I think there's always been
00:39:21maybe some underpinning of that
00:39:22in kind of this more libertarian slant
00:39:25that, you know,
00:39:26Silicon Valley tech people
00:39:28have tended to have for a long time.
00:39:31At the same time,
00:39:32I think you always have to look
00:39:34at like what's going to go on
00:39:36with the actual businesses.
00:39:37And if you look at Meta's business,
00:39:39you know, to tie it back
00:39:40to the TikTok thing,
00:39:41if TikTok is banned,
00:39:42Meta is going to be like
00:39:44almost the only game in town
00:39:46for like these short form videos.
00:39:48Obviously, there's also YouTube shorts.
00:39:50But, you know, that's a TikTok
00:39:52is a huge competitor.
00:39:53And then you think about their
00:39:55Meta is also involved
00:39:57in a anti-monopoly suit from the FTC.
00:40:02And, you know,
00:40:03part of the thinking behind that
00:40:05is that, you know,
00:40:06Meta has become so big
00:40:08and stayed so big
00:40:09because they're one of the only places to go.
00:40:12And they've made that
00:40:14they've made sure that's the case.
00:40:15Those are the allegations
00:40:16that the FTC would have.
00:40:19So I think, you know,
00:40:20are people really going to leave
00:40:23Facebook and Instagram
00:40:24if they disagree with these policies?
00:40:26Some might, but probably not enough
00:40:29to really warrant Zuckerberg,
00:40:31you know, doing another 180
00:40:32on his thinking here.
00:40:33Yeah. Historically speaking,
00:40:34the answer is no.
00:40:35Some people leave very loudly
00:40:37and most people don't.
00:40:38Exactly.
00:40:39And I think more and more people
00:40:41are getting more and more willing
00:40:42to make that small trade
00:40:43in favor of some of these other things,
00:40:45like hoping that Trump will not try
00:40:47and break your company up,
00:40:48which is a real thing
00:40:49that's sitting in front of Mark Zuckerberg.
00:40:51Exactly.
00:40:52I just want to say that
00:40:53if the end of 2025 is
00:40:55I have to use Instagram Reels exclusively,
00:40:58then this sucks.
00:40:59I want any outcome
00:41:01that does not end with me
00:41:02having to use Instagram Reels.
00:41:04That's all I want.
00:41:06Yeah, I mean, if the end of 2025
00:41:08is anything like the end of 2024,
00:41:09I think we don't know
00:41:11what's going to happen this year.
00:41:12Yeah, that's very real.
00:41:14All right, Lauren, thank you as always.
00:41:15I suspect we are going to do this
00:41:17oh so many times.
00:41:17And I suspect at some point
00:41:18you and I are going to be
00:41:19in a courtroom together this year.
00:41:20And I'm very much looking forward to it.
00:41:22Can't wait.
00:41:23All right, see ya.
00:41:24Bye.
00:41:26All right, we got to take a break
00:41:27and then we're going to come back
00:41:28and we're going to talk Kickstarter.
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00:42:48All right, we're back.
00:42:49So I was at CES last week,
00:42:51and one of the things
00:42:52that you see at CES
00:42:53is just an infinite supply
00:42:56of new ideas about technology.
00:42:58You also see an infinite supply
00:43:00of copycat ideas
00:43:01about new technology.
00:43:02One of the amazing things
00:43:03about CES
00:43:04is how quickly you see
00:43:05ideas percolate.
00:43:07Somebody invents a thing
00:43:08and then it just spreads
00:43:09like wildfire
00:43:10among every other company
00:43:11because things are
00:43:12mostly easy to make now.
00:43:14And I think that's fascinating.
00:43:15But to me, it's the new stuff
00:43:17that I think is most interesting.
00:43:18You see so many booths
00:43:20that are just one person
00:43:22standing there
00:43:22with a thing that they made,
00:43:24and they're there
00:43:25to show it to people,
00:43:26but also to try to get funding
00:43:27and to try to make partnerships.
00:43:29And it is very much
00:43:30a trade show in that sense.
00:43:31And so much of what
00:43:34we see in the world
00:43:35comes from like a person
00:43:37standing at a booth
00:43:37with a thing that they made.
00:43:38And those are the people
00:43:40Kickstarter has always
00:43:41tried to help.
00:43:43Kickstarter has been around
00:43:44for many years now
00:43:45and has gotten
00:43:46lots of interesting
00:43:47products off the ground.
00:43:48There's a decent chance
00:43:49that a lot of gadgets
00:43:50that you use
00:43:51start on Kickstarter.
00:43:52The Oura Ring, I think,
00:43:54was a Kickstarter.
00:43:54Pebble was a Kickstarter.
00:43:56Lots of things have grown
00:43:57really huge out of Kickstarter.
00:43:59But Kickstarter still feels
00:44:01to me at least sort of sketchy.
00:44:03It's a it's a platform
00:44:05not for buying things,
00:44:06but for sort of hopefully
00:44:08flinging your money at something
00:44:10on the off chance
00:44:11that you get money back.
00:44:13And I don't know what that means
00:44:15in this world that we're in now,
00:44:17especially in a world
00:44:18where the TikTok shop
00:44:20has made it so easy
00:44:20for everybody to sell everything
00:44:22and has changed the way
00:44:23that people find and discover
00:44:25and shop for products.
00:44:26Instagram is doing
00:44:26something very similar.
00:44:28And then you have things
00:44:28like Etsy and Wayfair
00:44:30and all these places.
00:44:31If you want to sell something,
00:44:32you're sort of spoiled for choice.
00:44:34So what does Kickstarter do
00:44:36in this world?
00:44:36What can Kickstarter do for people
00:44:39that it never has before
00:44:41and that no one else is doing now?
00:44:43So Everett Taylor
00:44:44has been the CEO of Kickstarter
00:44:45for a couple of years
00:44:46and has been thinking about
00:44:47all of these questions.
00:44:48And so after spending a week
00:44:50running around,
00:44:51looking at weird ideas
00:44:53about the future of technology
00:44:54and people who made things
00:44:55and want to know
00:44:56what to do with them,
00:44:57I just wanted to know,
00:44:59what do those people need?
00:45:00How do we help those people?
00:45:01How do people's new ideas
00:45:02get out in the world?
00:45:04So that's what
00:45:04Everett and I talked about.
00:45:06But the first question
00:45:06I asked him was basically just
00:45:08in the year 2025,
00:45:10what is Kickstarter?
00:45:12Listen to me,
00:45:14Kickstarter plays
00:45:15such a special role
00:45:17within the world
00:45:19and the creator economy.
00:45:21I think,
00:45:22we were using the word creator
00:45:24before a lot of people
00:45:25even saw themselves
00:45:26as creators and entrepreneurs.
00:45:28And I think Kickstarter
00:45:30has been consistent
00:45:32in its ability to be a platform
00:45:35for new ideas,
00:45:36new innovation,
00:45:37creativity.
00:45:38But we've expanded
00:45:40so much beyond
00:45:41what people originally
00:45:42thought Kickstarter was.
00:45:43A lot of times
00:45:44when you thought about
00:45:45Kickstarter in the past,
00:45:46it was like,
00:45:46hey, if I don't have the money,
00:45:49I don't have the resources
00:45:51to create something new
00:45:52or bring something new
00:45:53into the world,
00:45:53then I go to Kickstarter.
00:45:55Kickstarter has evolved
00:45:56to the point where now
00:45:57we still have tons of creators
00:46:00who need to get the money
00:46:03to get things off the ground.
00:46:04But as the company has evolved,
00:46:09now we have,
00:46:11you know,
00:46:11billion dollar
00:46:12multinational corporations,
00:46:14big tech companies,
00:46:15big creators
00:46:17that are well-established
00:46:19that values the community
00:46:21and the millions of people
00:46:22within the Kickstarter community
00:46:24where it's like,
00:46:25hey, if you want to launch
00:46:26anything new,
00:46:26no matter where you are
00:46:28in your career,
00:46:29where you are in the life cycle
00:46:30as a creator or entrepreneur
00:46:32or as a business,
00:46:33Kickstarter is a valuable community
00:46:36because we have such
00:46:37incredible backers
00:46:38that want to just support
00:46:40new things.
00:46:41And I think what's beautiful
00:46:42about Kickstarter,
00:46:43especially over the past
00:46:44couple of years,
00:46:45is that we've evolved past
00:46:47just a crowdfunding platform.
00:46:49We're building new products
00:46:50and features,
00:46:51new business lines
00:46:52to support creators
00:46:55throughout the entire life cycle
00:46:57of, you know,
00:46:58their creator journey
00:46:59or their entrepreneurial journey.
00:47:01So it's not just about,
00:47:02hey, you know,
00:47:03before it was like,
00:47:04hey, I'm going to raise
00:47:04some money on Kickstarter.
00:47:06And then it was like,
00:47:06good luck.
00:47:07Now Kickstarter is building
00:47:08this ecosystem of products,
00:47:10features, and services
00:47:11that help you
00:47:12throughout the entire life cycle
00:47:13as a creator.
00:47:14So, OK,
00:47:15I was going to get to this later,
00:47:16but you just brought up
00:47:17one of the things
00:47:18that I most wanted to talk about,
00:47:19which is that shift from
00:47:22like I've made a thing
00:47:23and I need some money
00:47:24to make more of them
00:47:25to big established companies
00:47:28launching stuff on Kickstarter.
00:47:29And yeah,
00:47:30candidly, I've always wondered
00:47:31if that's a thing Kickstarter
00:47:32like secretly hates
00:47:34that it like it like
00:47:35breaks the vibe of the platform
00:47:37for like a multinational corporation
00:47:39to come show up
00:47:39and try to crowdfund something.
00:47:40Yeah.
00:47:41But there is something about
00:47:44that that continues
00:47:45to work for these companies.
00:47:47And I've never been able
00:47:48to put my finger on exactly why.
00:47:50And even as we cover it,
00:47:51it's a challenge
00:47:52because like it is
00:47:53that whole gamut of things.
00:47:54And it's like, OK,
00:47:55here is a product
00:47:55that's being launched.
00:47:57It could be either like a dude
00:47:59who made a thing
00:48:00with a 3D printer
00:48:01and now wants to figure out
00:48:02how to go make millions of them.
00:48:04Yeah, but it could also be a company
00:48:05that's done this 20 times
00:48:06and is perfectly reputable.
00:48:07And this thing is going to launch
00:48:08no matter what happens.
00:48:09And I think trying to figure out
00:48:12how Kickstarter sort of
00:48:13can be all of those things
00:48:15is it has just always been tricky
00:48:17for me as somebody
00:48:18like covering these gadgets
00:48:19and talking about them.
00:48:22Can Kickstarter be all those things
00:48:23to all those people?
00:48:25Yeah, I think so.
00:48:26I mean, I think first of all,
00:48:28I will I will say this.
00:48:30When larger creators
00:48:31or larger companies
00:48:32with larger audiences
00:48:33come onto the platform,
00:48:35like it just brings eyes
00:48:37and attention to other things
00:48:39that's on the platform.
00:48:40It grows the community.
00:48:41And so, yes, is there always
00:48:43going to be a subset of people
00:48:44like, you know, a vocal minority
00:48:46that's like, hey, I don't like
00:48:47that L'Oreal just dropped
00:48:49something on Kickstarter
00:48:50or whatever,
00:48:52which they dropped something
00:48:53very awesome.
00:48:53But yes, we're going to
00:48:56continue to have that.
00:48:57Right.
00:48:57But the numbers don't lie.
00:49:00The data doesn't lie.
00:49:01Them coming to the platform
00:49:03actually helps
00:49:04smaller creators tremendously
00:49:06because of the visibility
00:49:08that it brings to the platform
00:49:09and to other projects
00:49:11that are currently on the platform.
00:49:13So we see an uptick
00:49:14for other projects
00:49:15when those big creators
00:49:17or those big companies
00:49:18come to the platform.
00:49:19So it's actually helpful.
00:49:21And the one thing
00:49:22that I think is beautiful
00:49:23about our community,
00:49:25specifically for design
00:49:26and technology and new innovation,
00:49:29they're less attached to
00:49:31or they tend to be less attached
00:49:33to who is doing it
00:49:34and more about what it is.
00:49:36Like they just want
00:49:38the coolest, newest,
00:49:41most innovative thing.
00:49:42They're not so tied to
00:49:44who that person is,
00:49:46which is a little bit different
00:49:47when you get to categories
00:49:48like film and music
00:49:50and more creative categories.
00:49:52Right.
00:49:53And so to me,
00:49:54I think we can we can serve both
00:49:55because we have an audience
00:49:56of people that just want
00:49:58really, really cool products.
00:50:00Right. At the end of the day.
00:50:02It's really interesting.
00:50:03Yeah. And I think
00:50:04one of the questions
00:50:06I think Kickstarter
00:50:06has always tried to reckon with
00:50:08is do we treat these things
00:50:10like sort of transactional businesses
00:50:12or do we treat them
00:50:13like content creators?
00:50:15Right. Because like I think
00:50:16it's a really complicated balance.
00:50:19Right. Because on the one hand,
00:50:19it's like I buy
00:50:21I preorder a cooler.
00:50:23I expect that cooler
00:50:24to ship to my house.
00:50:25Right. That's a pretty straightforward
00:50:26transaction that we're
00:50:27always do all the time.
00:50:29But if I back a creator that I like,
00:50:31the the thing that I ask for in return
00:50:33is more squishy and nebulous.
00:50:36If they don't make anything,
00:50:38that's probably bad.
00:50:39But I don't expect complete control
00:50:41and specificity over
00:50:42what they're going to make.
00:50:43It's like that relationship
00:50:44is just really different.
00:50:47But it also sounds like
00:50:48the way you're seeing it,
00:50:49maybe it's not that different
00:50:50that maybe even if I'm buying
00:50:52the cooler and I expect
00:50:53the cooler to ship to my house,
00:50:54there is still some of that
00:50:56like content creator personality
00:50:59relationship stuff going on.
00:51:01Yeah, I think it depends on the person.
00:51:02David, I think you're a very rational,
00:51:05sensible human being.
00:51:07And so you're looking at it that way,
00:51:09where there's other people that come,
00:51:11you know, we talk about this
00:51:12all the time at Kickstarter.
00:51:13When you pledge on Kickstarter,
00:51:14it says right there in bold,
00:51:16Kickstarter is not a store,
00:51:18meaning that, hey,
00:51:19this we're not guarantee,
00:51:21guarantee you're going
00:51:22to get this product.
00:51:23We're not guaranteeing
00:51:24you're going to get something
00:51:25that you like, you know,
00:51:26even close to maybe what you
00:51:28what you thought you were going to get.
00:51:30This stuff is hard,
00:51:30especially for first time creators
00:51:32and things like that.
00:51:33Over 90% of creators
00:51:34actually do fulfill.
00:51:35I'm very happy about that.
00:51:37I'm very proud of that number,
00:51:39but it doesn't always happen, right?
00:51:42There's unforeseen things
00:51:43that happen all the time
00:51:44with creators and entrepreneurs.
00:51:46And so I think there are
00:51:49some backers who are like
00:51:51very just like,
00:51:53almost like e-commerce shoppers.
00:51:54Like I see a thing,
00:51:55I see a product I wanted.
00:51:57I don't care if it's John
00:51:59or Sue or whoever doing it.
00:52:02I don't care about the backstory.
00:52:03I just want that product.
00:52:04And then you have some backers
00:52:06who are like really emotionally
00:52:08invested in that creator,
00:52:10their story,
00:52:11what they're trying to do.
00:52:13I love those backers, by the way,
00:52:14because that is,
00:52:15I think that's what's special
00:52:17about Kickstarter that
00:52:18that emotional connection
00:52:20that you have to somebody
00:52:21because doing something new
00:52:24or putting some new out
00:52:25new out into the world
00:52:26is a very brave thing to do.
00:52:27And I think those people
00:52:29that emotionally connect to that,
00:52:30I think that's
00:52:30a very beautiful thing.
00:52:32But we have some people like that.
00:52:34And then we also have some people
00:52:35who just want the product.
00:52:37Neither are wrong, right?
00:52:38But there's just two different
00:52:40experiences on the platform.
00:52:42Well, I agree that neither are wrong,
00:52:44but it does seem like
00:52:45on some level,
00:52:47you have to pick one, right?
00:52:48Because like you said,
00:52:49you know, 90% of creators ship
00:52:51is both a very high number
00:52:52and a very low number
00:52:53kind of all at the same time, right?
00:52:55Like if, if, if
00:52:57Samsung only shipped
00:52:5890% of the stuff that they launched,
00:53:00like that'd be, that's a problem.
00:53:01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:02And so, and I do feel like,
00:53:04I think a thing
00:53:06that I've noticed over the years
00:53:07is I think Kickstarter
00:53:09has gone out of its way
00:53:10to act less and less
00:53:12like a shopping mall.
00:53:14But is, is that,
00:53:15has that been deliberate on your side?
00:53:17Like if you had to pick
00:53:18one of those two approaches,
00:53:19it seems like you're much happier
00:53:21on the side of like,
00:53:23be part of a community
00:53:25working on something together
00:53:26rather than show up,
00:53:27buy a thing and don't check on it
00:53:29until it appears at your house
00:53:30in some months.
00:53:31But that's because I'm like an empath
00:53:33and I'm a pro empathy person.
00:53:36Like at the end of the day,
00:53:37I'm an entrepreneur myself.
00:53:39I'm a creator myself.
00:53:40So I understand
00:53:42everything that goes into it,
00:53:44all the unforeseen things
00:53:45that could potentially happen
00:53:46that can derail you.
00:53:49You know, and so for me,
00:53:51I just have that level of empathy
00:53:53and understanding.
00:53:54There's some projects
00:53:55that don't deliver for a year,
00:53:57sometimes two years, right?
00:53:58Like the, these things happen
00:54:00and then you have
00:54:00some more experienced creators
00:54:02who are like,
00:54:04they're cranking these things out
00:54:05like clockwork, right?
00:54:06Like they already have
00:54:07the manufacturing down pat.
00:54:09They know what they're doing,
00:54:10et cetera, et cetera.
00:54:11They'll launch a Kickstarter
00:54:12and we'll literally release
00:54:14the product that next week, right?
00:54:16So there's different types
00:54:18of creators on the platform.
00:54:19But I do think what makes Kickstarter
00:54:22fundamentally different
00:54:23from, you know, an Amazon
00:54:25or someone else like that
00:54:26in e-commerce
00:54:27is that these are people
00:54:30who are genuinely trying
00:54:31to get an idea out there.
00:54:32And I do think
00:54:33that emotional connection
00:54:34and that sense of community
00:54:36and coming together
00:54:38is really special.
00:54:40And I think that's why also
00:54:42the bigger corporations
00:54:43still like to launch on Kickstarter
00:54:45because the people are so passionate
00:54:48and they'll give you that feedback
00:54:49and they'll be real with you.
00:54:50And they'll also,
00:54:52if they feel very happy
00:54:53with what you do,
00:54:54they will be advocates
00:54:55for that product and that brand.
00:54:58I think it first
00:54:59starts with the creator.
00:55:00I know we just talked
00:55:01about the whole thing
00:55:02about like, you know,
00:55:03there are people that treat it
00:55:04more like e-commerce,
00:55:05but I think
00:55:08it always starts
00:55:09with the creator, man.
00:55:10Like the creator, their story,
00:55:14their passion, their drive,
00:55:17how people resonate
00:55:18with their story
00:55:19and whatever they're trying
00:55:20to produce,
00:55:21but also who they are
00:55:23as a person.
00:55:24I tell people all the time,
00:55:25Kickstarter is no cakewalk.
00:55:26Like people will come
00:55:28on the platform and fail
00:55:29because they think,
00:55:30oh, I just put a project
00:55:31on Kickstarter
00:55:32and then people are just
00:55:33going to give me money.
00:55:34No, you have to have
00:55:35a true go-to-market strategy.
00:55:37You got to have a plan.
00:55:38You got to have great storytelling.
00:55:40Okay.
00:55:41So if you're thinking
00:55:42about it that way, right?
00:55:43If it, if you're sort of putting
00:55:44the creator at the center of it,
00:55:47you can, I can sort of imagine
00:55:49a world where very quickly
00:55:50you're like, okay, well,
00:55:50the thing we have to do
00:55:51is build like a content platform
00:55:54for those creators to make things
00:55:55outside of being sort of
00:55:57specifically project-based.
00:55:58And then it's like
00:55:59two more very small steps
00:56:01and now you're TikTok, right?
00:56:02Like it's, it's like,
00:56:04because this is where
00:56:04everybody has landed, right?
00:56:05Everybody, everybody else
00:56:06that is in this space
00:56:07has come at it
00:56:08from the opposite direction,
00:56:09which is we have given creators
00:56:11a place to build an audience
00:56:12and then we've given
00:56:13those creators ways to sell stuff.
00:56:15And I think in a lot of ways,
00:56:19that path has sort of ruined
00:56:21those platforms.
00:56:21Like the TikTok shop,
00:56:23at least in my own experience,
00:56:25has made TikTok essentially unusable.
00:56:27It is, it is, it's, I mean, it is,
00:56:28it's like, it's a shopping mall now
00:56:29and that's fine for what it is.
00:56:31But it is, that is,
00:56:32it is like unrecognizable
00:56:33from what TikTok was
00:56:34before the shop existed.
00:56:36Yeah, but it works.
00:56:38And so what I wonder for you
00:56:39as the CEO is like,
00:56:41you've built the second half
00:56:43of that equation already.
00:56:45And I can imagine
00:56:46there's a lot of like pressure
00:56:48and good reasons potentially,
00:56:50but also maybe psychotic reasons
00:56:53given the competitive landscape
00:56:54to go the other way
00:56:55and basically be like,
00:56:56okay, how do we become
00:56:57a like creator first platform
00:57:00and do vertical video
00:57:01and like make a thing
00:57:03that gives us all of the power
00:57:05of a creator audience on Kickstarter?
00:57:08Like, is that a path that makes sense?
00:57:10Is that where you're headed?
00:57:11I mean, well, a couple of things
00:57:13that makes Kickstarter unique.
00:57:15Number one, we're not
00:57:16a publicly traded company, right?
00:57:19We're a private
00:57:20and we're a public benefit corporation.
00:57:23And so some of these things
00:57:24that these, you know,
00:57:26larger tech companies,
00:57:29the pressure of them to make,
00:57:31you know, billions
00:57:32and billions of more revenue,
00:57:33they're always under pressure.
00:57:34We got to get the stock price up.
00:57:35We got to do this.
00:57:36We got to do that.
00:57:38Kickstarter doesn't have that, right?
00:57:40Like, you know,
00:57:40Kickstarter was profitable
00:57:42in year two of its existence
00:57:45and we've continued to scale
00:57:46and become bigger and more successful.
00:57:49But we've done things our way
00:57:51and we've done things
00:57:52without the pressures of feeling
00:57:56like we needed to monetize everything.
00:57:58I'm trying to do the things
00:57:59that are the most genuinely impactful
00:58:03to our audience.
00:58:04In my first couple of years here,
00:58:06I've been hyper focused
00:58:08on giving creators the tools,
00:58:10the products and the services
00:58:11that they've been asking
00:58:12for Kickstarter for years.
00:58:14So even before even getting
00:58:17to anything like that,
00:58:19like we still have a long road
00:58:21and also sometimes
00:58:23you got to understand
00:58:24where your bread is buttered, man,
00:58:25like, you know,
00:58:25and be really, really great
00:58:28at what you do.
00:58:30With that being said,
00:58:31one of the things
00:58:31that we're hyper focused on this year
00:58:33is also backer development, right?
00:58:35And in developing better products
00:58:38and features for our backers,
00:58:39we've been very focused on creators,
00:58:42but now we're like,
00:58:42how can we create
00:58:44a more engaging sticky experience
00:58:48for backers on the platform?
00:58:50So I'm more focused on that
00:58:52than necessarily,
00:58:54you know, trying to turn Kickstarter
00:58:56into a TikTok, like,
00:58:58you know, a vertical platform
00:59:00or anything like that.
00:59:01There's definitely a world
00:59:03in which Kickstarter
00:59:05could sort of choose
00:59:06to be more actively involved
00:59:08in the like,
00:59:08here's how to help you make stuff process
00:59:11and printing services
00:59:12for people wanting to make content
00:59:14and like that kind of thing.
00:59:15Is that, is that interesting to you?
00:59:17Like, is that a space
00:59:17you think Kickstarter has stuff to do?
00:59:19That's more interesting to me
00:59:20than Kickstarter becoming like TikTok.
00:59:23Okay.
00:59:23To me personally,
00:59:24I think platforms like TikTok
00:59:27and Instagram and Twitter
00:59:29and all of that
00:59:29have always played a role
00:59:32in Kickstarter, right?
00:59:33In terms of how people market.
00:59:36We now have our own
00:59:38marketing services,
00:59:39performance marketing services
00:59:41called Kickstarter Performance,
00:59:42which is like chilling it
00:59:44where we're utilizing those platforms.
00:59:46So those platforms
00:59:46are always going to be more important.
00:59:48But what can we uniquely do?
00:59:50Like we try to go out there
00:59:52and be better than TikTok.
00:59:53That's really, really hard to do, right?
00:59:55But I think we could be
00:59:57potentially the best
00:59:58at white glove service
01:00:00with manufacturing
01:00:01and stuff like that.
01:00:01Like that could be something
01:00:02that we could do.
01:00:03I'm not saying that's
01:00:03what we're going to do,
01:00:05but that's something that we know
01:00:07uniquely our creators need
01:00:09that they might not
01:00:10be able to get elsewhere.
01:00:12Instead of focusing on
01:00:14competing with people
01:00:17at what they absolutely do best,
01:00:19I'd rather focus on
01:00:20what Kickstarter absolutely does best
01:00:22and then filling the gaps
01:00:25for our creators where they need it.
01:00:27OK, yeah, what are those gaps?
01:00:28I mean, you see it a lot,
01:00:30and I would assume it varies
01:00:32pretty widely
01:00:33in terms of what folks need.
01:00:34But like, you know,
01:00:35you mentioned wanting
01:00:36to do the stuff
01:00:37creators have been asking for for years.
01:00:39Like what's your sense
01:00:40of what's at the top of that list?
01:00:42One of them we're doing
01:00:43or we're about to launch,
01:00:45and that's a pledge manager
01:00:47and post campaign tools, right?
01:00:48So, you know, before it was like
01:00:51you raise money on Kickstarter
01:00:52and then it was like,
01:00:53congrats, here's your $50,000.
01:00:55Good luck and go out into the world,
01:00:57you know, and now, you know,
01:00:59we're launching these
01:01:00post campaign tools.
01:01:01Last year, we launched late pledges,
01:01:03which now allows you to
01:01:05if you raise $50,000,
01:01:06but hey, you might have
01:01:08another few hundred people
01:01:09that you might raise
01:01:10another ten, twenty thousand dollars
01:01:12over the last over another week
01:01:14if you had it right.
01:01:15And so now you have late pledges.
01:01:17Now you're going to have
01:01:18pledge management, CRM,
01:01:20all of those things to help you,
01:01:22you know, your taxes,
01:01:24shipping, et cetera, et cetera.
01:01:26So helping people fill the gaps
01:01:28of that post campaign process,
01:01:30which is going to be extremely important.
01:01:32We're going to have, you know,
01:01:34add ons and cross sells
01:01:35and all different types of things
01:01:37after a Kickstarter is over
01:01:39that a lot of these entrepreneurs
01:01:41and creators need
01:01:41that we've never been able
01:01:43to provide for them.
01:01:44Which I'm really, really excited about.
01:01:46And that's already
01:01:47we have someone in beta right now,
01:01:48and that's going to be rolling out
01:01:50early part of this year,
01:01:52which we're really, really excited for.
01:01:55The other thing on the
01:01:56other side is pre-launch, right?
01:01:57So we revamped a lot of our
01:01:59pre-launch this past year,
01:02:01but there's so many more things
01:02:04that creators need before
01:02:05actually launching a Kickstarter.
01:02:07To be honest, like
01:02:08depending on what you do
01:02:10before a Kickstarter
01:02:11will determine how successful
01:02:13your Kickstarter even will be, right?
01:02:16And so what can we do more
01:02:18in that pre-launch process
01:02:21of filling those gaps,
01:02:22supporting creators,
01:02:24helping them set realistic goals?
01:02:26Maybe it's some of the
01:02:27manufacturing stuff, you know,
01:02:28all of these things,
01:02:30making sure that they have
01:02:31the right pricing, etc, etc.
01:02:33A, B testing.
01:02:34There's a lot of things
01:02:35that we could be doing
01:02:36on the pre-launch side
01:02:37that we're currently not doing
01:02:39that I think that
01:02:40we can provide for creators.
01:02:41And so I think the first steps
01:02:43is pre-launch and post-campaign
01:02:46and continuing to build out
01:02:48a suite of tools and services
01:02:50for creators on both sides.
01:02:52So then you have this kind of loop
01:02:54where it's like pre-launch,
01:02:55Kickstarter, post-campaign,
01:02:57and then come back to pre-launch
01:02:58and continue to launch products.
01:03:01Okay, you're kind of confirming
01:03:03a thing I've always suspected
01:03:04about Kickstarter,
01:03:04which is that the people
01:03:06who aren't like, you know,
01:03:08large companies using it
01:03:09as a kind of marketing
01:03:10pre-sale platform.
01:03:11Uh, many of these people
01:03:13are like just people
01:03:14who made a thing and don't know,
01:03:18haven't run businesses like this,
01:03:19don't know how to manage
01:03:22larger quantities of money like this.
01:03:24They're just like, I made a thing
01:03:25and I think people might like it.
01:03:27And, uh, they get some money, right?
01:03:30And I think the idea
01:03:30of like needing money
01:03:31to do that stuff is part of it,
01:03:33but it is, I think,
01:03:35maybe a smaller slice
01:03:36of the like how to actually
01:03:38successfully accomplish
01:03:39your goals pie
01:03:41than anyone would like it to be.
01:03:42And all the rest of the stuff
01:03:43is like less sexy to talk about
01:03:46and less sort of creative
01:03:48and beautiful and artsy.
01:03:49But it's like,
01:03:50that's the stuff that falls apart.
01:03:52And I found this with the tech folks.
01:03:53It's not because the thing didn't work.
01:03:54It's because they couldn't
01:03:55figure out how to ship it.
01:03:56Like over and over.
01:03:57It's that kind of stuff
01:03:58that falls apart.
01:03:59It's that piece.
01:04:00And now you have these
01:04:00big content creators
01:04:01that have an audience
01:04:02where they can go on
01:04:03Kickstarter today and raise
01:04:05four or five, 10 million
01:04:06or whatever it is.
01:04:07But do they even have the tools
01:04:09and resources to actually
01:04:11make the thing happen?
01:04:14Right.
01:04:15And do it successfully.
01:04:16And so those are the gaps
01:04:18that we see that
01:04:19we're trying to fill.
01:04:20And I think we're doing
01:04:21a good job thus far.
01:04:22Uh, you mentioned AI and I,
01:04:24I want to, I, I was,
01:04:25I'm going to forget to talk about it
01:04:26if I don't bring it back up now.
01:04:27I think, uh,
01:04:29like I'm a CES right now.
01:04:30You're going to be at CES this week.
01:04:32Uh, literally all anyone
01:04:33wants to talk about is AI.
01:04:35Uh, and, and what you're saying
01:04:36is right that like
01:04:38some companies are
01:04:39doing interesting things
01:04:40and other companies are
01:04:41just doing old things
01:04:42and calling them AI.
01:04:43Uh, and that just is what it is.
01:04:44And that's fine.
01:04:45But I think the,
01:04:47the potential of AI
01:04:50within a Kickstarter universe
01:04:52is super interesting, right?
01:04:53Like the, the,
01:04:54if AI is everything
01:04:55it is cracked up to be
01:04:56and like spoiler alert,
01:04:57it isn't.
01:04:58But if it is, uh,
01:04:59it, it's going to make
01:05:00a lot of things
01:05:02easier for people.
01:05:03It's going to make it
01:05:04easier to design thing.
01:05:05It's going to make it
01:05:05easier to build things.
01:05:06It's going to make it
01:05:07easier to do your taxes.
01:05:08It's going to make it easier
01:05:09to like do all the legal
01:05:10paperwork around this stuff.
01:05:11And so I can imagine a world
01:05:12in which you're,
01:05:14you're like baking a lot
01:05:16of that stuff into
01:05:18Kickstarter itself to say,
01:05:19like, these are tools
01:05:20that can automate
01:05:22and simplify some of this stuff.
01:05:23And, you know,
01:05:24everybody talks about
01:05:25democratizing everything,
01:05:26like AI could do some of that,
01:05:28right? Like if I don't have
01:05:29to write code in order
01:05:30to be able to do a project
01:05:31I want to do, like the,
01:05:32the gap between I have an idea
01:05:35and I can sell that idea
01:05:36to people might get much smaller.
01:05:40It also might just be a bunch
01:05:42of snake oil nonsense
01:05:44and may not come to anything.
01:05:46But where you're, like you said,
01:05:49you're, you're a company
01:05:50that doesn't have to chase
01:05:51anything that looks like growth
01:05:53just for the sake of something
01:05:54that looks like growth.
01:05:55But where's your head
01:05:56with AI stuff right now?
01:05:57Yeah, first I want to say
01:05:59is that, listen,
01:06:00I'm pro technology.
01:06:02I'm pro the advancement
01:06:03of technology.
01:06:03I know that, uh,
01:06:06you can't just sit there
01:06:07and be scared and fearful
01:06:08of, of, of technology.
01:06:10With that being said,
01:06:12I think there's something
01:06:13powerful and beautiful
01:06:14about human made work
01:06:16and creativity.
01:06:18And Kickstarter wants to be
01:06:19at the forefront of supporting
01:06:21that, right?
01:06:22Supporting creators,
01:06:24first and foremost,
01:06:25before we even touch AI.
01:06:28And we want to make sure
01:06:29that the creators
01:06:30on our platform feel supported
01:06:32by the work that they do.
01:06:34I see some platforms
01:06:35that are completely just,
01:06:37I mean, I just saw Meta's,
01:06:38like creating fake AI influencers.
01:06:42And it's like, dude,
01:06:43do you realize that this, this,
01:06:46this is taking away
01:06:47from the hardworking influencers
01:06:50and creators on your platform
01:06:51and why they use it.
01:06:53And you already know
01:06:53where they're going with it.
01:06:54It's like if they can build
01:06:55these creators and make money
01:06:57off of them themselves,
01:06:59but that's hurting your audience.
01:07:01We will never do anything
01:07:02that's going to hurt
01:07:03our community, right?
01:07:04And so we want to make sure
01:07:05there's so many people,
01:07:07so many comic book creators
01:07:09and artists and musicians
01:07:11that are hard at work
01:07:12to create things
01:07:13without the use of AI.
01:07:14And so we want to make sure
01:07:15that we're protecting those people
01:07:17and protecting their hard work,
01:07:19first and foremost.
01:07:20If there are ways
01:07:21where we can incorporate AI
01:07:23to help make their lives easier
01:07:25or make creators more successful
01:07:27on the platform,
01:07:28I'm 100% open to exploring that,
01:07:31but I don't want to go too far
01:07:34where it's hurting our community.
01:07:37That line's going to get
01:07:37really blurry, though.
01:07:38Like if it's not happening already,
01:07:41it's going to happen soon
01:07:42that you're going to get musicians
01:07:43who want to kickstart an album
01:07:45of AI-generated music.
01:07:47And it can right now.
01:07:48They just have to be honest
01:07:50that they've used AI
01:07:53in what they're doing.
01:07:54We have an AI policy
01:07:55and we just ask that,
01:07:56hey, if you use AI,
01:07:59just say that you used AI, right?
01:08:01And then if you are using
01:08:03other people's work through AI,
01:08:05identify those people
01:08:07and compensate those people
01:08:08when you can.
01:08:10Okay.
01:08:10Yeah, but is there a risk
01:08:13in that for Kickstarter?
01:08:15We talk about this all the time
01:08:16at The Verge,
01:08:16the idea that the internet
01:08:17is just going to be flooded
01:08:19with AI content.
01:08:22You open up like,
01:08:24if I'm just wanting to kickstart
01:08:25a new album of AI-generated music
01:08:29every day on Kickstarter,
01:08:30that's not going to work,
01:08:32but it's going to make
01:08:33the platform worse, right?
01:08:36And so I wonder,
01:08:37if you get to a point
01:08:38where 80% of the stuff
01:08:39on Kickstarter
01:08:40is not interesting to most people
01:08:42because it's AI-generated,
01:08:44how that changes Kickstarter?
01:08:46I think at the end of the day,
01:08:47our community does a great job
01:08:49of pointing out
01:08:51what is interesting and what's not.
01:08:53I think if someone came on today
01:08:55and tried to do a bunch of music
01:08:56that was AI-generated,
01:08:58they wouldn't be that successful.
01:09:00And they're not going to continue to do that.
01:09:01I think the good thing about Kickstarter
01:09:03is that it almost polices itself
01:09:06in a sense, right?
01:09:07Like if the community isn't for it
01:09:09or supports it,
01:09:11you'll know because you're not
01:09:12getting anything for it.
01:09:15And so I'm very open
01:09:17to see how things evolve.
01:09:19I'm not someone that lives
01:09:20in the black or the white.
01:09:21I very much live in the gray.
01:09:23I just understand right now
01:09:25that human-made things
01:09:27and human-made work
01:09:28and creativity is at the core
01:09:30of what we do today.
01:09:32And I do understand the power of AI
01:09:34and how that can be supportive
01:09:36to creators implementing
01:09:38that and what they do.
01:09:39But we want to make sure
01:09:40that we don't lose sight
01:09:42of what really makes Kickstarter special
01:09:44at the end of the day.
01:09:44Okay.
01:09:45This might be a stupid realization
01:09:47to be having this far
01:09:48into this conversation,
01:09:49but it also strikes me that
01:09:51starting the whole thing
01:09:53with an exchange of money
01:09:55changes the dynamic
01:09:56in a really useful way.
01:09:58I think about the AI music
01:09:59that's suddenly all over Spotify,
01:10:01and nobody really likes it.
01:10:04Nobody's seeking it out.
01:10:05It's not super popular,
01:10:07but there's so much of it
01:10:08that at volume, it still works.
01:10:12I can put out so much music
01:10:13that hardly any of it
01:10:14has to be successful
01:10:16in order for it to still be
01:10:18an in-aggregate success for me.
01:10:20But that's a totally
01:10:22different relationship
01:10:23than you have paid me for a thing.
01:10:25And I feel like there's—
01:10:26I can't imagine the path
01:10:28to get to that kind of success
01:10:31when first you have to pay me for a thing.
01:10:34And what I said before,
01:10:35yes, we do have people
01:10:36that are very much like,
01:10:39hey, I am just getting a thing.
01:10:41They're thinking they're—
01:10:42we never use the words buy, right?
01:10:43We don't see ourselves
01:10:44as a marketplace in that way
01:10:46that are using that.
01:10:47But still at the core,
01:10:49the majority of our audience
01:10:51is wanting to support creators,
01:10:53new things, new products.
01:10:54There is this emotional component to it.
01:10:58And so, I think people
01:11:01who want to behave in that way
01:11:03on the platform
01:11:04are not going to find a lot of success.
01:11:07Okay. All right, last thing,
01:11:08and then we'll let you go.
01:11:08I've kept you a long time here.
01:11:10What do you tell creators
01:11:12about how to talk
01:11:14to their audience that way?
01:11:15Because I think every bad experience
01:11:17I hear about that somebody
01:11:18has on Kickstarter
01:11:19is about being ghosted
01:11:20in one way or another.
01:11:22Like the experience of,
01:11:24I backed a thing and it didn't work,
01:11:26is frustrating,
01:11:28but I backed a thing
01:11:29and then they disappeared
01:11:30is worse and feels bad.
01:11:32And like, that's the thing
01:11:33that breaks the thing.
01:11:34And so, yeah, I mean,
01:11:36I assume this is a thing
01:11:37you spend a lot of time
01:11:38thinking and talking about.
01:11:39But I am curious,
01:11:39like, as you talk to these folks
01:11:41who are wanting to build
01:11:42that relationship,
01:11:43what do you tell them?
01:11:45Well, first and foremost,
01:11:48they know what they're doing, right?
01:11:50Like, let's like,
01:11:51these are adults.
01:11:51These are creators.
01:11:52These are entrepreneurs.
01:11:54And what I'm very excited about,
01:11:56and we already started
01:11:58rolling it out,
01:11:59is we're going after these
01:12:01potentially fraudulent creators
01:12:02or these ghosting creators.
01:12:04Never in Kickstarter's history
01:12:05have we done that.
01:12:06We've kind of had this like,
01:12:08hey, Kickstarter's not a store.
01:12:10There's no guarantee
01:12:11that you're going to get the thing.
01:12:13I always compare it
01:12:13to the chat GPT thing,
01:12:15where it's like,
01:12:15chat GPT might lie to you.
01:12:16And it's like a total abdication
01:12:18of responsibility to say that.
01:12:20100%.
01:12:21And to me,
01:12:23I just like,
01:12:24listen, David,
01:12:25I stand on business, man.
01:12:27And like,
01:12:27I come from Southside, Richmond.
01:12:31I'm all about
01:12:32holding people accountable
01:12:34and making sure
01:12:34that we do the right thing.
01:12:36So this year,
01:12:37we're rolling out new things
01:12:38where we're going to be going
01:12:40after these creators.
01:12:41We're going to be banning them
01:12:42from the platform.
01:12:43We're going to be communicating
01:12:44back to their backers,
01:12:46letting them know
01:12:47that we're holding them accountable.
01:12:48We're going to be putting people
01:12:50in collections,
01:12:51going after the money
01:12:52to get it back for our backers.
01:12:54Like we're not playing
01:12:55any more games anymore.
01:12:57And so yes,
01:12:58we can go and go to every creator
01:13:00and be like,
01:13:00hey, make sure you're communicating
01:13:02with your audience,
01:13:03do the right thing.
01:13:04But we both know
01:13:06that people that aren't
01:13:07trying to do the right thing
01:13:08is going to ignore that.
01:13:10The one place where I do find empathy
01:13:13and like where we need
01:13:13to help more creators
01:13:15are those like first time creators
01:13:16that they failed
01:13:18and they're like under the weight
01:13:20of failure, right?
01:13:23And I don't want to go after them.
01:13:24I just want to make sure
01:13:25they get to the point
01:13:26where they can at least
01:13:27communicate that to their audience.
01:13:31I think that's going to be so important
01:13:33because there are some creators
01:13:34that just under the weight
01:13:36of the pressure,
01:13:37they're not trying to ghost,
01:13:38but they have that social anxiety
01:13:40of like, I don't know what to do.
01:13:42And I really empathize with that,
01:13:43but they still have to go
01:13:45and communicate with that audience.
01:13:47And so the balance
01:13:48of helping those creators,
01:13:50but also actually
01:13:52going after the creators
01:13:53that are being fraudulent.
01:13:54Yeah, yeah.
01:13:55And I think that the folks
01:13:56who give it a real try
01:13:59and then just kind of admit defeat,
01:14:01I think I think you're right
01:14:02that Kickstarter is unusual
01:14:04as a place in that
01:14:05it has a lot of space
01:14:07for those people, right?
01:14:08Like that is that is a thing
01:14:09that is part of the system.
01:14:11Yeah, it's the people
01:14:12who just take your money and run.
01:14:14Then that that that's
01:14:15the threat to everybody.
01:14:16And I want to say that
01:14:18that very, very, very rarely happens.
01:14:21I would say most of the time
01:14:24it is people who
01:14:25under the weight of pressure.
01:14:28Just don't feel like that
01:14:29they can, you know,
01:14:31say what happened
01:14:32or what went wrong
01:14:34and all of those things.
01:14:35And, you know, we understand that,
01:14:36but we're here to support people.
01:14:38And that's part of the backer work
01:14:39that we're doing,
01:14:40regaining trust
01:14:41within that backer network
01:14:42of saying, hey, we're actually
01:14:44going after those guys.
01:14:45That's why I was so excited
01:14:45that you brought it up.
01:14:46I can't wait.
01:14:49Yeah, it's time to time to go to work.
01:14:51All right.
01:14:51I should let you go,
01:14:52but thank you for doing this.
01:14:53This is so much fun.
01:14:54I appreciate it.
01:14:54Yeah, thank you so much, David.
01:14:57All right.
01:14:57We got to take one more break
01:14:58and then we're going to come back
01:15:00and take a question
01:15:00for the broadcast hotline.
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01:16:12All right, we're back.
01:16:13Let's get to the hotline.
01:16:14As always, the number is 866-VIRG11.
01:16:17The email is virgcast.com.
01:16:19We love all of your questions.
01:16:21We try to answer at least one
01:16:22on the show every week,
01:16:23but I have some ideas
01:16:24about how to do even more than that.
01:16:26This year, we're also working
01:16:28on some big stuff
01:16:28that started as hotline questions.
01:16:30Please keep hitting up the hotline
01:16:32with all of your weirdest questions.
01:16:34It's my favorite thing.
01:16:36This week's question is about passwords,
01:16:38or I guess more specifically, not passwords.
01:16:41Listen to this.
01:16:42Hi, David slash VirgCast.
01:16:46My name is John in New York,
01:16:48and I have a question about,
01:16:50sort of related to the VIRG
01:16:53creating a subscription
01:16:55and more about sign-ins on websites.
01:17:00A lot of websites,
01:17:01I feel like these days,
01:17:03do prompt you to sign in
01:17:06via a link in an email.
01:17:08I sort of understand that,
01:17:10but what is the reason
01:17:12websites are moving,
01:17:14it seems like, in that direction more?
01:17:17Is it because people
01:17:18can't do passwords properly?
01:17:20It seems like a lot of websites
01:17:23are just removing the ability
01:17:24to do passwords at all.
01:17:26Is that the way of the future?
01:17:29Just wondering what the process there is.
01:17:33Okay, so this question actually sent me down
01:17:35a really interesting rabbit hole
01:17:37because I frankly hate magic links
01:17:40as a login mechanism.
01:17:42Basically, the way magic links work,
01:17:44if you don't know,
01:17:44is you go to log into something,
01:17:46you type in your username,
01:17:47and you hit submit.
01:17:48And instead of popping up another field
01:17:49that's like, hey, what's your password?
01:17:51It says, you know,
01:17:52we've sent you an email,
01:17:53go click on the link in your email.
01:17:55So you go, you open your email,
01:17:56you get an email from
01:17:58whoever you're trying to log into
01:17:59that says, click this link
01:18:00to finish your login
01:18:01or something like that.
01:18:02You click that link,
01:18:03and then it opens up
01:18:04to the thing that you were reading.
01:18:06This is, in theory, fine, right?
01:18:10I think that idea works.
01:18:11And I'll tell you the reason people do it.
01:18:13Just to directly answer the question,
01:18:14the reason for magic links
01:18:16is because they are better than passwords.
01:18:18I think everything
01:18:19is better than passwords.
01:18:21And one thing that we've seen over time
01:18:23is there is a big push away from
01:18:26if I run a website,
01:18:28storing your passwords.
01:18:29I just don't want them anymore.
01:18:31The folks at 404 Media
01:18:32wrote a really great post
01:18:34about this a couple of weeks ago
01:18:35about why they use magic links.
01:18:36And the thrust of it is essentially,
01:18:38we don't want your passwords.
01:18:39Because as soon as you store
01:18:40somebody's passwords,
01:18:42you become a security risk.
01:18:44And because most people
01:18:45have bad password hygiene,
01:18:47they reuse passwords,
01:18:48they use bad passwords.
01:18:50If I leak your password to my website,
01:18:53there is a surprisingly good chance
01:18:55that what actually happened
01:18:56is I just leaked the password
01:18:57to your email and your bank account
01:18:59and everything else.
01:19:00So essentially,
01:19:02what a lot of companies
01:19:03are starting to say
01:19:04is just we do not want your password.
01:19:07We don't want your data at all.
01:19:08This is a thing you hear
01:19:09from a lot of privacy based companies
01:19:11like DuckDuckGo
01:19:12has been saying this for years
01:19:13is their privacy policy
01:19:15is just to not have any data at all.
01:19:17Because the less you collect,
01:19:18the fewer risks there are for that data.
01:19:21And passwords, I think,
01:19:23are the number one
01:19:24security vector there.
01:19:26And so that is one big reason
01:19:28to use magic links.
01:19:28It offloads all of the worry
01:19:31about security to just
01:19:33as long as my email address is secure,
01:19:36which is my job as a person,
01:19:39it will work.
01:19:40This system stays secure
01:19:41as long as my email stays secure.
01:19:42And I think for us as people,
01:19:45that's a reasonable trade, right?
01:19:47Like it is just true
01:19:48that if your email address
01:19:49gets compromised,
01:19:50you're hosed.
01:19:52I hate to put it in quite those terms,
01:19:54but if you do one
01:19:56single thing on Earth
01:19:57that is good for you on the Internet,
01:19:59it is have a complicated
01:20:01and two factor backed
01:20:03and unique password for your email.
01:20:06That's just do it
01:20:07or else you are just on borrowed time
01:20:09until something truly terrible happens.
01:20:11Okay, so anyway,
01:20:12the upside of magic links
01:20:15is that it offloads
01:20:16a lot of that process.
01:20:18The downside of magic links
01:20:20is that it's kind of crappy
01:20:22user experience, right?
01:20:23So in a certain world,
01:20:24like if I'm sitting at my computer,
01:20:26for instance,
01:20:26and it's easy for me
01:20:28to switch from the tab of the website
01:20:31to the tab of my email,
01:20:32that's relatively simple, right?
01:20:34And then I click the link
01:20:34and it opens the same thing
01:20:36in another tab
01:20:37and I'm back to where I was.
01:20:39That's slightly annoying
01:20:40just because it's a bunch of tabs
01:20:41switching and clicking
01:20:42and it opens in another tab.
01:20:45So now I have two tabs
01:20:46of the same thing,
01:20:46one where I'm not logged in
01:20:47and one where I am.
01:20:49That's slightly messy,
01:20:50but is, I would say, broadly fine.
01:20:53Where this really breaks down
01:20:54for me, at least as a user,
01:20:56is on mobile, right?
01:20:57Where I log into something,
01:21:00I go to my email,
01:21:02which involves usually, you know,
01:21:04closing and opening another app
01:21:05or opening the multitasking thing
01:21:06and you swipe for a while.
01:21:07That takes a minute.
01:21:09And then clicking the link
01:21:10and then when I click that link,
01:21:13God only knows where it goes.
01:21:14This is the problem, right?
01:21:15On mobile, especially on iOS,
01:21:17which is just awful about this,
01:21:18you have in-app browsers,
01:21:21you have Safari,
01:21:22which a lot of apps
01:21:23just want to open by default,
01:21:24and then you have whatever you've picked
01:21:25as your default browser.
01:21:27So when you are in a place
01:21:29reading an article
01:21:31and you want to log in
01:21:31and read that article,
01:21:33you get the magic link
01:21:34and it may or may not open
01:21:36in the place where you were originally
01:21:37reading that article.
01:21:39This is a platform mess
01:21:41and it is everyone's fault,
01:21:43especially Apple's,
01:21:44for the way that it handles web browsers.
01:21:45But what it means
01:21:46is that you're just not in the place
01:21:48that you expect to be
01:21:49and logged in in the places
01:21:51you expect to be logged in.
01:21:53I have a theory that
01:21:54lots of people who hate subscriptions,
01:21:56one thing we've heard, frankly,
01:21:57on The Verge is that
01:21:58saying logged in is a challenge
01:22:00and a lot of that comes from
01:22:02the fact that
01:22:03when you use a browser on iOS,
01:22:05again, in particular,
01:22:06you're actually using
01:22:08several different kinds of browsers
01:22:09that do not talk to each other.
01:22:11You're not just using
01:22:12like the iPhone browser.
01:22:14Sometimes you're in Safari,
01:22:15sometimes you might be in Chrome,
01:22:16sometimes you're in an in-app browser,
01:22:17sometimes you're in a different in-app browser.
01:22:19It's a mess.
01:22:20My one thing, by the way,
01:22:22is try your very best
01:22:24not to use in-app browsers.
01:22:26Set the browser you want as the default
01:22:27and then get in the habit
01:22:28of like pressing the button
01:22:30and saying open in default browser.
01:22:32It is annoying to do that extra step
01:22:34every time you open a web page,
01:22:35but it makes all the login
01:22:37and magic linky stuff
01:22:38a little bit easier.
01:22:40So all of this is to say,
01:22:42I've been asking around a little bit
01:22:44and I don't think anyone agrees
01:22:46that magic links are perfect.
01:22:49There's no sort of magically
01:22:52great thing about them,
01:22:54but they do work, right?
01:22:55You probably have access to your email
01:22:57just about everywhere.
01:22:58There's a chance that you have access
01:22:59to email more places
01:23:00than you have access to your passwords.
01:23:02Most people, again,
01:23:03have bad password hygienes
01:23:04and have them like written down
01:23:05on a sticky note on their desk.
01:23:07There's a good chance
01:23:08your email is more accessible to you
01:23:10than the list of passwords that you have.
01:23:12It also means things like
01:23:15when you're on a new device
01:23:17that you've never used before,
01:23:18you can use the magic link
01:23:20and still be relatively secure
01:23:22without risks of things like,
01:23:24you know, keyboard capture
01:23:26and all that stuff.
01:23:27It's a better, simpler system
01:23:30with fewer problems
01:23:32than just asking people
01:23:33to type in their password all the time.
01:23:35All of that is true.
01:23:36But when I talk to people about this,
01:23:38they say what we should have
01:23:40is something more like passkeys.
01:23:42Passkeys are really interesting
01:23:45and we've talked about them
01:23:46a bunch on the show,
01:23:48but passkeys basically
01:23:49intercept this whole system
01:23:51and just let you declare yourself
01:23:54to a website with yourself.
01:23:57You use the biometric security
01:23:59on your phone to log into websites.
01:24:01I would argue that is the correct answer,
01:24:02and that is absolutely
01:24:03how it should work.
01:24:04None of these systems are perfect,
01:24:05but they're very good
01:24:06and I think they're great.
01:24:08You can also solve
01:24:08a lot of these problems
01:24:09by just having good password hygiene, right?
01:24:10Like if you have a password manager,
01:24:13you can solve some of this problem,
01:24:14particularly the user experience
01:24:15part of the problem
01:24:16by just having these things
01:24:18autofill themselves more easily.
01:24:20Then you don't have to know your passwords.
01:24:22You can have your passwords everywhere.
01:24:23It doesn't solve the specific security risks
01:24:26of just inputting passwords,
01:24:28which are an inherent security risk.
01:24:30But if you have, you know,
01:24:31unique, complicated passwords
01:24:33across every website that you use,
01:24:36the worries about a specific one
01:24:38being leaked at least go down.
01:24:40There are, I should also say,
01:24:42tradeoffs to the magic link thing
01:24:45with security.
01:24:46One other thing you see is
01:24:48the codes that people get sent in emails
01:24:51or the codes that you can get sent
01:24:53by text message,
01:24:54like six digit code
01:24:55that you use to log into stuff.
01:24:57Those are also better
01:24:58than asking people to input passwords,
01:25:00but they take time too.
01:25:02SMS in particular has
01:25:04its own security risks.
01:25:06It you run the risk of having issues
01:25:08if you have service problems.
01:25:10Look, none of these systems are perfect.
01:25:12This is the thing
01:25:13I keep hearing from people is like,
01:25:14oh, we really should have
01:25:16solved passwords by now.
01:25:17And passkeys are probably
01:25:18the closest thing
01:25:19we've ever come up with
01:25:20to solving passwords.
01:25:21But for right now,
01:25:22we have this big kind of mealy
01:25:25mess of different ways
01:25:28to do better than having you
01:25:29just type your password
01:25:31into a text field.
01:25:32And everybody agrees that
01:25:33that is the single worst thing
01:25:34you can possibly do.
01:25:35So magic links, they're not great.
01:25:38They're not anybody's favorite thing,
01:25:39but they are definitely unequivocally
01:25:42better than making people
01:25:43type in their passwords.
01:25:44And for that reason alone,
01:25:46I will, I will keep using them.
01:25:48I will get annoyed
01:25:48every time I have to use them
01:25:50on 404 and other places.
01:25:52But I will keep using them.
01:25:54I hope that helps.
01:25:56Passwords are a mess
01:25:57is essentially where it lands.
01:25:59None of this is good.
01:26:00Use passkeys when you can.
01:26:04All right, that is it
01:26:05for the Vergecast today.
01:26:05Thank you to everybody
01:26:06who came on the show.
01:26:07And thank you as always for listening.
01:26:09There's lots more on everything
01:26:10we talked about at theverge.com.
01:26:12We're covering all of the run up
01:26:14to the will they won't they
01:26:15TikTok ban really aggressively.
01:26:18So keep it locked on the website.
01:26:19I think there's a lot left to happen
01:26:21in the next five days.
01:26:22So keep it locked.
01:26:24Let us know what you think.
01:26:25I'd love to hear all of your thoughts
01:26:26on whether it should be banned,
01:26:27shouldn't be banned.
01:26:28I know this is the thing
01:26:28we've been talking about
01:26:29for literally years at this point,
01:26:32but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
01:26:33And I'd love to hear your thoughts
01:26:34and questions on everything.
01:26:36Email us Vergecast at theverge.com
01:26:38call the hotline 866 Verge 1 1.
01:26:40We absolutely love hearing from you.
01:26:42We are going to do
01:26:43even more hotline stuff in 2025
01:26:46than we did last year.
01:26:47So please keep all
01:26:48of your questions coming.
01:26:50This show is produced by Liam James,
01:26:51Will Poore and Eric Gomez.
01:26:53Vergecast is a Verge production
01:26:54and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
01:26:56Neil and I will be back on Friday
01:26:58to talk about presumably the TikTok ban,
01:27:00plus everything going on at Meta,
01:27:02all of the open AI stuff and lots more.
01:27:04We'll see you then.
01:27:05Rock and roll.
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