In this episode of It's A Hard Knock Life, host Siu Lim speaks with Usha Gopalan Nair, a mother of two daughters, one of whom has cerebral palsy.
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00:00Did you believe that though?
00:01Not within me, but I had to because it's coming from a specialist and people around me it's like,
00:08you know, you have to trust the specialist, you know.
00:16It's a Hard Knock Life and this is Sue Lim, your host for today and I have my guest today, Usha.
00:23Hi, how are you?
00:25I'm good, thank you for having me.
00:27Yeah, thanks for coming.
00:28I was actually, I invited you over because I was actually very fascinated about your story.
00:34You know, I heard about, you have two daughters.
00:36Yes, I do.
00:37And tell me about your daughters.
00:38My elder girl, she is 23.
00:42Her name is Rihanna and my second girl is Ivana and she's 20.
00:49My elder girl, she finished her degree in psychology and she works with kids with autism.
00:55And my younger girl, she's doing a diploma.
00:58Okay.
00:59Yeah, and you know, so, and she has cerebral palsy.
01:03She has a disability.
01:04Cerebral palsy.
01:05Now that, actually, I don't know what that is.
01:08I'll be honest with you.
01:09You, I read about it.
01:11I was told about it and I just wanted to learn from your experience.
01:15What is it?
01:16What is cerebral palsy?
01:16Okay, for my daughter, cerebral palsy actually affected her movements, her mobility.
01:22So she can't do anything on her own, like self-care, like to shower.
01:28You need some assistance, like a caretaker.
01:30And she can't dress on her own.
01:33And she's not mobile.
01:34She's on wheelchair 24-7.
01:36Okay.
01:37So these are her difficulty, her challenges.
01:40At what age did you figure out?
01:43That was late.
01:45I mean, I would consider that late, 18 months, because everybody kept saying.
01:4918 months old?
01:5018 months old.
01:51Oh, wow.
01:52Quite early.
01:53For me, it was late, because I noticed there was a difference much earlier than that.
01:57But people around me said, no, she's fine.
02:01Just give her the time.
02:02A mother's intuition.
02:04Yes.
02:04You knew there was something.
02:06What, for example, what does she do?
02:09You know, because I have my elder girl, what she has done, certain things that I did not
02:13see in my daughter, like turning.
02:15A child turns at certain milestone.
02:18Just on the bed, turning.
02:19Yeah.
02:20She didn't have that.
02:21She couldn't sit.
02:22When I take her to the pediatrician, they will tell me, just give her the time.
02:26Some children don't turn.
02:28They just sit.
02:29Did you believe that, though?
02:31Not within me, but I had to, because it's coming from a specialist and people around
02:37me.
02:37It's like, you know, you have to trust the specialist, you know?
02:41Oh, right, right.
02:41So though you know, there is something not right.
02:47But people around you, you know, that's very important.
02:50People around you need to support you, what you're thinking, you know?
02:53Right, right.
02:54So and then finally, the pediatrician, he told me, come back in 18 months and we will
02:59do an MRI and see.
03:01And then the diagnosis, yeah, there is.
03:04Oh, so they diagnosed at that point.
03:07You said that her challenges was movement, correct?
03:11Mobility.
03:11Yes.
03:12Meaning right now, she's on a wheelchair.
03:15Um, what other, you know, challenges can a person with that have?
03:21Some children with cerebral palsy do not have, they are not verbal.
03:25They're not verbal.
03:26Yeah.
03:26So like my daughter, she's verbal.
03:28Okay.
03:29So that, that's me, you know, it's easier to communicate and things like that.
03:33But some childs are not verbal.
03:35Some, they have autism plus cerebral palsy.
03:40So there are a lot of things each child go through with cerebral palsy.
03:44Like, let's talk about her.
03:45How did it affect her growing up?
03:47Like for safety issues, for example, like, did you, were you ever concerned about her
03:51because she couldn't move?
03:52Um, do you, did you worry, you know, any particular worries?
03:57Okay, not when she was small, because I'm 24-7 with her.
04:02I was taking her for physio and all that.
04:05But when she started going to kindy, then I was a bit worried because she's not mobile.
04:10She's on wheelchair.
04:11Right.
04:12What will the other kids might tend to do to her?
04:15They might bully her, right?
04:16Yeah.
04:17And she's not able to do anything in return.
04:20Like, you know, how to protect.
04:21So, but somehow she's the kind of kid which her, her motto or her code for every day is
04:31no.
04:32You know, everything you ask her.
04:34She verbally was strong.
04:35Verbally she was strong.
04:37Everything you ask her, it's like, no.
04:39So that way was a bit easy because anything you ask her, she says no.
04:44Okay.
04:45So, but I was still scared of her, you know, getting bullied, as you mentioned, you know,
04:50bullied or something, you know, taking her things away and all that.
04:54So I had to teach her those things, like how to protect herself, her things, her belonging.
05:01I'm just very curious because, I mean, nowadays, you know, with through the recent stories,
05:07there's a lot of stories going around about kids being assayed and all.
05:13And this is a concern for me as a parent.
05:16And my, you know, and for someone, a child that's immobile, do you ever feel concerned
05:22that, you know, something in that effect might happen to her because she's not mobile?
05:28Yes, I do.
05:29That's always my concern.
05:30You know, how is she going to survive on her own, you know, rest of her life.
05:35So we know people with disability are the most vulnerable people.
05:41Yeah.
05:41You know, they are known for sexual abuse.
05:46Yeah.
05:46You know, all kinds of things.
05:47So.
05:48Which is unimaginable.
05:49I mean, I didn't believe it when I first heard it, but I guess they get the vulnerable ones.
05:57I mean, did you have to teach her a good touch from bad touch?
06:02Yes, I do.
06:03I mean, it started with my elder girl, let me say.
06:07And, you know, every mom go through certain things.
06:10You know, first time mom, you know, everything is trial and error.
06:13Yes, yes.
06:14So I think I started with my elder girl as a baby.
06:17You know, when you bring them out of the shower, first thing you do, you play like a game.
06:22Right.
06:23You know, and you cover with a towel and someone comes in and say, cover, cover, cover.
06:27You know, you do that.
06:28So, I mean, I didn't think of it that time.
06:30But now you think about it.
06:31Actually, that was a way of teaching them, you know, cover yourself.
06:35Yeah, yeah.
06:36Protect yourself.
06:37This is your body.
06:38Your body.
06:38Yeah.
06:39So I think I did that with my elder girl first and then same with my second girl.
06:44You know, she was verbal.
06:45So I could teach her all that.
06:47She understood all that.
06:49So I taught her the same thing.
06:50And then the next one from my elder girl was when you teach her potty training.
06:56Quickly wear your clothes on.
06:58Right.
06:59You know, those are the steps I started teaching my kids.
07:01But my second girl, I couldn't do that.
07:04She was not mobile.
07:05Right.
07:05So I have to have a place when I'm changing her.
07:09It's private.
07:10Okay.
07:11So these are the small things from a very young age I do.
07:15Yeah, because like I can imagine when they go to school, they're no longer around.
07:20Let's say she has to go to the toilet.
07:24How is it that she goes about with that?
07:26I did have a caretaker who goes with her to the school.
07:31So I teach the caretaker what to do.
07:35And I will be there.
07:36And you trusted this caretaker?
07:38I'm there.
07:39Oh, you're there.
07:39Okay.
07:40I can't physically carry my child after she was 10 because I have a severe scoliosis.
07:46So I needed to hire someone, you know, to help me out.
07:50So I take the caretaker to the school.
07:53I'm there and the caretaker is there.
07:54So when my child needs to go to the washroom, usually it's not during the busy hours.
08:00It usually will be the quieter time.
08:02I'll take her to the washroom and I've taught her how to seat, how to place,
08:07you know, sheets on the seat and lift her up and then change her back.
08:12So we knew how to do with the closed door.
08:16Okay.
08:16Yeah.
08:17And then going back to how teaching her what a safe good touch and bad touch is,
08:23how did you, did you tell her?
08:25Did you show her?
08:26Like, I mean, how do you?
08:28Again, I'll go back to the childhood time.
08:31I teach them through books.
08:32You know, there are some books.
08:33Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:34They have the pictures.
08:35Correct, correct.
08:36And related better.
08:38Right.
08:38Books and pictures.
08:39It's the same thing with me.
08:40Yeah.
08:40Yeah.
08:41So that was my first step.
08:42Another second step, I will say, teaching them through books, good touch, bad touch.
08:47And the other thing is my elder girl, we had boundaries, you know.
08:52Right.
08:53Basically, we teach them good touch, bad touch.
08:56It's the first thing we use.
08:57No touching, you know, about the things in the house.
09:00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
09:01It's a no touching.
09:02So that was like boundary, first rule of boundary.
09:05So for my elder girl, I had a space in the house, in the living room where her toys,
09:10she loved Winnie the Pooh.
09:12So she had a round table with Winnie the Pooh, Tigger, and she would play.
09:16And then there's a wall.
09:18So I allowed that wall for her.
09:20It's her private space.
09:21Her personal.
09:22Yeah.
09:23So she could draw anything in that wall, do anything there, but anything else outside
09:28that space, it's not allowed.
09:30It's a no.
09:32So at a young age of two, she told a grand auntie one day who came to the house, who
09:38touched one of the ornaments.
09:39She looked at the grand auntie and said, no, no.
09:42You know, so she knew her boundaries.
09:44Like, you know, yeah, they learn.
09:46They learn.
09:46Yeah.
09:47And I think there's nothing wrong with teaching your child the word no.
09:51Because sometimes, you know, they feel shy.
09:56And I think with, you know, kids who feel shy, that's when they're most vulnerable.
10:01And then, you know, you don't want them to take advantage of.
10:03So I agree.
10:04Teaching your kids to say no and to understand what belongs to them, what's their property,
10:09for example, their bodies, their space, is a very fair thing.
10:13Yeah.
10:14And so your second daughter, did she?
10:16Okay.
10:17My second daughter, she didn't have those space because she was not mobile.
10:21Right.
10:21But what my second daughter was doing, because she was, she couldn't move.
10:25So when she has an argument or a fight with her sister, the thing she will do is she will grab.
10:31She grabbed things and she pulled the sister's hair.
10:35Well, like typical sister.
10:36Yeah.
10:37But that's no touching.
10:38You know, so I teach her the boundaries of touching.
10:42No, even if it's your sibling, you're not allowed to touch.
10:45That's great.
10:46Or pull your sibling's hair or anything like that.
10:49So that's boundary.
10:50Again, you know, children's being children.
10:52They will say, mom is being, you know, she's only being nice to the sister.
10:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:58She's never on my side.
10:59Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:00So these are the things that you go through and you teach.
11:03I mean, you know, being mothers, it's no right or wrong.
11:07You know, we all learn the process.
11:08Yeah.
11:09We forget that we're all learning too.
11:11Yeah, exactly.
11:11And there's no judging other moms or parents what they do.
11:15Everyone has their own ways.
11:16Correct.
11:17So I do agree with you.
11:18Like, you know, you don't just suddenly teach your child like at a certain age.
11:21Like, you know, okay, you're now 12 years old.
11:24Okay, I'm going to teach you now.
11:25It's an ongoing thing.
11:26You start them from very young.
11:28Correct.
11:29You know, how they need to take care of their, you know, that their possession is their possession.
11:35Learning to say no is not a bad thing.
11:37Yeah.
11:38But now your daughter is 20 years old.
11:40Yes.
11:41Now she's starting to, you know, she's an adult now.
11:44How is she coping with, you know?
11:47She has become a bit of an introvert.
11:51And getting her out, it's a little difficult.
11:55I think she, that's the kind of issues that I'm facing with her right now.
12:00She doesn't like to really go out and all that.
12:03But there's a catch on that.
12:06They're always on the social media, in the gadget.
12:10Yeah.
12:11That actually scares me, actually.
12:13Yeah, scares me.
12:15I think with social media nowadays, I also feel like when it comes to good touch, bad touch
12:21kind of topics, it's all around social media.
12:24I mean, TikTok talks a lot about it and stuff.
12:27So sometimes we feel like we don't need to teach them.
12:30We don't have to talk about it with them.
12:31But at the same time, we do because sometimes I've experienced, I mean, not myself, but like,
12:37I know of some friends or family members who's actually gone through it without knowing
12:45they went through it.
12:46Get me?
12:46Like, for example, their uncle will actually touch him in ways, because it's their uncle,
12:53because it's a close somebody, they tend to forget that they have to say no to that uncle
13:00because the uncle's been around forever, for example, right?
13:03And while it's, you know, anything's happening, they don't realize it's happening, you know?
13:09It's true.
13:10So we don't know.
13:11I had an experience when I was younger where I didn't go that far, but my neighbor always
13:18asked me to come over his house.
13:20He was a single man.
13:22And he always asked me to go over his house.
13:23I remember being eight to nine, eight to 10 years old.
13:26And what had happened was my mom always warned me, don't go over his house.
13:30Okay.
13:31Don't go to his house.
13:33If uncle asked you to go, and the thing is, my parents and him were very nice to each
13:39other.
13:39They were neighbors.
13:40They brought each other, you know, donuts or cake or whatnot.
13:45And he was like a manager at some really big company.
13:48And it was something in my mother's instinct that was like, don't go to his house.
13:52No matter how many times he asked you, don't go over his house.
13:55And when he, when I'm not home, because back in the day, you know, we were at home a lot
14:00by ourselves.
14:02She always told me and my brother, don't go outside when he's outside.
14:07And I never knew at that time.
14:08Okay.
14:09Honestly, being eight, nine, 10.
14:10I never understood why she didn't let me near this nice uncle that always gave me candy
14:17and always, you know, gave me soda.
14:19I never understood.
14:20She saw something.
14:21She saw something.
14:22She just knew.
14:23But I never understood at that time until now that I have my own kids.
14:30I understand why she, and she never told me like, oh, I'm scared that, you know, he touches
14:35you or whatnot.
14:36She just knew.
14:36But now I think back about this and I think, thank God my mom told me not to, you know,
14:44warned me.
14:45But she never explained.
14:47And I do wish looking back, she explained why I wasn't allowed to go to his house.
14:53I never understood.
14:54I just thought she was being a mean mom, you know, like you.
14:57So you never had the chance to ask your mom?
14:59No, I never actually went back to talk about it.
15:02I mean, are your girls comfortable with talking to you about like, you know, are they quite
15:07open with a lot?
15:10They do share, but I don't know how much they're sharing, but they do share.
15:14They will start off like something like about their friend having an affair with someone
15:20and then how it's going.
15:22And then they'll say, he's weird.
15:24You know, those words.
15:25Right.
15:27That is something not right.
15:28You know, I don't know what's wrong.
15:30You know, like they do notice there is something that's a boundary that the friend is crossing.
15:36Right.
15:37But these are the things that I hear from them.
15:40But I don't know how much secrets, you know, kids being in their teens and 20s.
15:46It's easier to talk to them when they're smaller, younger.
15:48They are more open when they're teenagers.
15:51You can't question them too much.
15:53Correct.
15:54Yeah.
15:54Because otherwise they're like, gosh, mom, you're so annoying.
15:57You're so nosy.
15:57Exactly.
15:58And that actually, I mean, people get scared when the kids are young, but actually it's
16:04scarier when they're older.
16:05Exactly.
16:05Because they're not willing to share that.
16:07I would say, would that be when your kids were growing up and the girls were getting
16:11older?
16:12Would that have been your a bigger concern?
16:15Yes, it was.
16:16Especially, OK, come back.
16:17Talking about my second girl.
16:19She's always on social media.
16:21I do know she did share with me.
16:23There are people who text her, start talking to her.
16:27And then the conversation turns another way.
16:31They ask for nudes.
16:33They ask for other things, you know.
16:35So I'm a bit worried about love bombing.
16:37You know, they talk sweet, whether they will fall for it.
16:40You know, although they know their boundaries.
16:42Right now I hear they know their boundaries.
16:44But what if?
16:46Yeah.
16:46You know.
16:47Have you spoken to her about it?
16:49Yes, I do.
16:49But every time we speak, it sounds like she knows her boundaries.
16:54It sounds like it.
16:55Yeah.
16:55They always sound like they know it.
16:57But, you know, as a mom, you still worry whether they will, you know, accidentally fall for
17:04it.
17:04Yeah.
17:04Because, I mean, you think back about when we were younger, we fell for a lot of things.
17:09And then we look back and like, we were like, we were dumb.
17:12Yeah.
17:14I mean, and I mean, I'm sure you get scared.
17:20Tell her, hey, don't do this.
17:21Make sure this, this is it.
17:22She goes, yeah, mom, I know.
17:23Yeah, I know.
17:24Exactly.
17:25But how much do they really know?
17:27The other thing I'm worried, okay, like my elder girl, she goes on e-hailing.
17:31Usually I drive or a friend drives.
17:33Okay.
17:34E-hailing.
17:34You hear a lot of things.
17:36Yeah.
17:36You know, seeing strangers.
17:37These are strange men, you know, out there.
17:40So what happens, you know, what happens if something goes wrong, you know, when you're
17:45going alone in this car?
17:47It's hard because you don't want to be naive, but at the same time, you don't want to be
17:50overprotective.
17:51There's a fine line between both.
17:53You want your child to be independent.
17:54Yeah.
17:55At the same time, you're like, okay, I'm not so worried about that.
17:57There were people who asked me, if you're worried, why do you send her on e-hailing?
18:01You know, send her by yourself.
18:02But how long am I going to do?
18:04She's going to be an independent woman one day.
18:06Yeah, yeah.
18:07You know, I have to teach her something.
18:09She has to see the world.
18:11But again, as a mom, maybe an Asian mom, you know, you still worry when
18:16they go.
18:17So what I do when I'm really worried she's alone or something, I'll just ask her to share
18:23the location, live location.
18:24Yeah, that's the amazing thing about technology nowadays.
18:27Yeah, that's the benefit of it.
18:29But again, how much?
18:30Yeah.
18:31You know, so these are the small steps we can do to protect them and advise them.
18:37But again, starting them from young, all these little habits, little warning signs, whatnot.
18:44And your daughter's 20.
18:45How is she now?
18:47Like, you told me that she is now, is she graduating?
18:50The elder girl?
18:52Yeah.
18:52Oh, no, the.
18:52The younger one, she's doing a diploma now.
18:54She'll be graduating that and then do her degree in math.
18:58Wow, you must be really proud of her.
19:00She's amazing.
19:01She's actually a smart.
19:02I'm actually proud of you as a mom.
19:04Because we don't, you know, I mean, we don't realize that you'd have, as a mom, as a parent,
19:09we go through so much to.
19:11All mothers are amazing.
19:12We all have our own challenges and strength.
19:14We do.
19:15Yeah.
19:15Challenges and strength she got, she has right now was probably the strength that you, that
19:21she got it from you, really.
19:24Yeah.
19:25I mean, I think she's got her own strength.
19:29I mean, I would, I would be glad that, you know, if I would have helped her in certain ways.
19:34I'm sure you did.
19:35Yeah.
19:36Yeah.
19:36But again, as a woman, I would like her to be independent, although with her mobility
19:41issues, I still want her to be independent.
19:43Right.
19:44And protect herself.
19:45These are the things that's always in my mind.
19:48Like what would be one advice you would give to parents, especially moms, not actually
19:53moms and dads, actually, about teaching the children of the importance of personal boundaries?
19:59Okay, there's no right or wrong, but for me to mothers is you're doing amazing.
20:06You know, just teach them what you can.
20:09Just be open with them.
20:11Have a good conversation.
20:13Basically, it's communication.
20:15It's always the key to everything.
20:16There's no point to not, you know, to not talk about good touch and bad touch.
20:21Some people, I mean, some parents only talk about the good touch.
20:24Yes.
20:24You know, we forget that we have to go to that part of the bad touch, you know, to talk
20:32about the personal space, personal boundaries that we have.
20:36It's something that I wish my parents did talk to me about, you know, personal boundaries.
20:40I think neither did my parents.
20:42Yeah, really?
20:43Again, it might be the Asian thing.
20:45Asian thing, yeah.
20:46All they know is just no, no, no.
20:47Why no?
20:48We don't know.
20:49We don't know.
20:50And it's important for them to know why.
20:52Why are they, why is nobody allowed to touch this part, this part and whatnot.
20:58Yeah.
20:58At least now we have, you know, the swimming suit.
21:02You know, you don't touch people in the swimming suit.
21:06You know, those are the private areas, you know, these little things you teach your kid
21:10from a very young age.
21:11Doesn't have to be, you know, when they're teens.
21:15It can be very young as long as they understand your language, the language they understand.
21:19Correct, correct.
21:20And it has to come from a, also a very friendly kind of safe space.
21:26Because I know that my mom was explaining these, some of these things to me, if she
21:30ever did.
21:32It would be in a very uncomfortable state, like a very, almost in an attacking way, like
21:38as if I did something wrong, you know.
21:40And it always made me feel uncomfortable because I always thought I would got in trouble for
21:44something that I didn't really do, you know.
21:47So that.
21:47I think I share the same feeling.
21:49I think after talking to you, I think I share the same feeling.
21:52But I think about my children.
21:54I think they think the same way with me.
21:56Do you think so?
21:57So funny.
21:58We always want to not follow our parents' footsteps.
22:00Then we ended up, we might end up like that.
22:03Yeah, exactly.
22:04I mean, we live and we learn, isn't it?
22:05Yeah, we learn.
22:06That's why I said, no, mother, we don't do, you know, we don't have right or wrong.
22:10Yeah.
22:10You know, we all learn through experience.
22:13We do.
22:13So everything is first time for us.
22:15Yeah, it is.
22:16It is.
22:16But I want to thank you so much for coming.
22:20Yeah, it's a touchy topic, but it's, you know, some, we got to talk about it.
22:26All right.
22:27I wish you the best.
22:28And I want to, you know, say hi to the girls for me.
22:33And that concludes the episode of It's a Touchy Topic.
22:37Thank you for joining us.
22:39All right.
22:39Have a good one.
22:40Bye.