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00:00There is a feeling of elitism sometimes when it comes to cooking.
00:05Yes, yes, exceptionally so.
00:07And we've come to a point where we've really just kind of scared people away from cooking.
00:11I don't think food's art.
00:12Art has the room for it to be subjective.
00:16Art can be different to everyone, right?
00:20Whereas food cannot.
00:22Food's a craft.
00:23Food is very objective.
00:25It must taste good or it doesn't taste good.
00:27You can have an opinion about what we do, but I don't have to react to it.
00:31I don't have to put validity to what you've just said.
00:42We've got another episode now.
00:44And this time, my guest is a person who has taste, you could say.
00:49Almost literally, actually very literally.
00:51He is Darren Teo, the founder of Dewakan.
00:55Thank you for joining us, Darren.
00:56Thanks for having me.
00:57Now, there is so much to ask because Dewakan is the only Malaysian restaurant with two Michelin stars.
01:04At the moment, yeah.
01:05At the moment.
01:05And also a green Michelin star.
01:07Also, yes.
01:08Right.
01:08We're going to get more deeper into that in a moment.
01:11But for now, tell us how this journey of food of yours began.
01:15Where does this passion for food and cooking come from?
01:19I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack from just that conversation alone.
01:24Anybody who's hungry would develop a passion for food, right?
01:30Because if you're hungry, you just want to eat something.
01:32I think for me, I think it really was the fact that the academic environment that I grew up in wasn't as conducive for the things that I was interested in.
01:49Could you give us more details on that?
01:52Yeah, yeah.
01:53I was pretty rubbish at school.
01:55That's what I'm trying to say.
01:56In the most polite way.
01:57You don't have to be that polite.
02:00It's all good.
02:00I grew up very good with my hands.
02:03And I like doing things that were visceral.
02:07But at the same time, I was also quite a studious person for things that I enjoyed, right?
02:12Right.
02:12So I read a lot.
02:15And you take those experiences from what you read and you put that into practicality.
02:21Whereas in school, you don't get a lot of that.
02:25So picking up cooking was a very intuitive way for me to express my life experiences and put that out into something.
02:38And I was raised in a home that cooked nearly every meal.
02:44And food was an important part of celebration.
02:48It was an important part of familial Thai community.
02:52So it became very natural to me to do that.
02:56Were you involved in it from very early on?
02:58Did you choose to be involved in the food preparation?
03:00Or was it not an option in many Asian families?
03:03It is not an option sometimes.
03:05It's your force to be a part of the process.
03:07I don't think it's so much as force as you...
03:11It's an assumed obligation, I think.
03:13I mean, the family that I grew up in, on my mom's side was very matriarchal.
03:21So my grandmother being the matriarch would, you know, orchestrate these sort of like event dinners and things like that.
03:32And now very small house in PJ.
03:34And so everybody then played a part, right?
03:39And to keep you from getting up to mischief, you grate the coconuts.
03:46Or, you know, you do something useful like pound the spice or something like that.
03:51Did you enjoy it even then?
03:53Was there joy in it?
03:55I mean, I think...
03:56I don't think you'd find the same sort of joy.
03:59I mean, it's not the same joy that you're talking about at least.
04:01I mean, when you're a kid, anything becomes an adventure.
04:06So, you know, it didn't come to the end of having to cook something or to produce something.
04:12It was just...
04:13It was just...
04:13This was what my grandmother asked me to do.
04:16And it looked like a lot of fun.
04:19So I just do that.
04:20What was that journey like from little Darren,
04:23who is now the man who is the founder of Dewakan?
04:30What was that journey like?
04:31That's a couple of decades to summarise in a couple of sentences.
04:34Tell us about the academic steps.
04:36Or not the academic steps so much, but the work steps.
04:39Like, how many previous restaurants were there before leading up to this?
04:43After high school, I did a degree programme in hospitality and catering,
04:51at which time, you know, it was based in city centre.
04:58So it was actually on Sultani Smell.
04:59That's where the college used to be.
05:01Okay.
05:01The building doesn't exist anymore.
05:03It used to be right next to the old Hilton.
05:06It was called the Complex Antarabangsa.
05:08Okay.
05:08And from there, because it was the epicentre of the city,
05:14there were a lot of opportunities to go and work part-time.
05:18So I spent a lot of time doing things like banqueting in the Hilton,
05:23or at the EQ, at the Equatorial at the time.
05:26I used to work for a lecturer of mine who used to have also a wine bar up at Jalamusui.
05:35Wow.
05:36So there was, you know, during the three, three and a half years of study,
05:42it was dotted with a lot of part-time work.
05:46Just getting to know the industry.
05:48And, you know, it was also because it was new and fun,
05:50and it was exhilarating.
05:51It was a subculture.
05:52At the time, cooking was a subculture.
05:57It's not as glorified as it is the same way it is now.
06:02Most times, people hardly see the person who's cooking a food.
06:06Especially so in Malaysia at that point, right?
06:09Yeah, probably.
06:11I mean, I don't think I could speak for, like, the rest of the world.
06:15But at that time, I felt, yeah, it was, it was, it's very different.
06:22I don't know if you've read Anthony Bourdain's book, you know,
06:24I think either Kitchen Confidential or Cook Store, one of them.
06:28And he often refers to, when he started out,
06:32he often refers to the kitchens being very akin to a pirate ship.
06:38Yeah, it's like, it's, you get, like, the rejects of society,
06:43the vagabonds, guys who got out of prison, can't find a job.
06:50It was very similar here, not as extreme, but, like, very similar as well.
06:55It's not, not as, not exactly as prim and proper as you'd see most kitchens are nowadays.
07:03Back in the day, it was a little bit rougher, a little bit tougher.
07:05Right.
07:06But that was your experience.
07:08That was my experience.
07:09It was actually what you saw.
07:10It was what I enjoyed, actually, because it was a subculture of,
07:15you know, I felt it was very much a renegade.
07:17Right.
07:18Sort of identity.
07:22It's interesting that you say that,
07:24because there is a feeling of elitism sometimes when it comes to cooking.
07:32Oh, yeah.
07:33Yeah.
07:33What, like now?
07:34Yeah.
07:35Yes, yes.
07:35It's exceptionally so.
07:37And I feel, I feel like, I feel in the past 20 years or so,
07:42especially with the way food media has just exalted the position of the person
07:48who leads a kitchen or leads a restaurant.
07:50We've come to a point where we've come to a point where we've really just kind of scared people away from cooking.
07:57You know, because there's this idea or this ideology that in order to cook a certain way or cook certain dishes,
08:05it has to be of a certain standard.
08:07You know, you see that through programs that do cooking competitions or who feature, you know, very acclaimed chefs cooking.
08:20And I think it intimidates people more than it encourages people in the way that the production has gone over the past 20, 25 years.
08:30So, I think that that has produced sort of like this idea that cooking is very distant, you know.
08:37And you feel it should not be that way.
08:40How do you feel about it?
08:41Well, everybody should be able to cook.
08:44You know, everybody should be able to fry an egg, make rice, you know, do a sambal or something.
08:52Everybody should be able to do that.
08:54I mean, it's inherent for us to eat, right?
08:58But food gets elevated depending on occasions, depending on who's cooking.
09:06No, that's you.
09:07Okay.
09:07That's us.
09:08That's our feeling.
09:09Yeah, that's us projecting this idea, this utopian idea of what the food should be.
09:16Right.
09:17Right?
09:17Right.
09:18Because I don't think it has, the experience of eating is very, very loosely connected to what you feel on your palate.
09:32A lot of it is memory.
09:33Okay.
09:34A lot of it is how you're feeling at the time.
09:37And how you're feeling at the time is not necessarily reflected in what you put in your mouth.
09:41Right?
09:41It's going to be the occasion, the moment that you spend speaking with someone that you enjoy being with.
09:48You create a memory, how you feel.
09:53You know, your first date would, you know, you could plan it in such a way that you go to like a fancy restaurant or an acclaimed restaurant.
10:05Or you could go and just do it at the side of the road and have like, you know, clay pot chicken rice and still have a good time.
10:12Right?
10:12Food isn't just food.
10:14Food is a medium.
10:16It's a medium for creating a memory.
10:18But it's, it shouldn't, it's, it's rarely the memory in itself.
10:23Right.
10:23Right?
10:24Because I think there are many moments in your life where you thought like, okay, look, I'm going to go for like, oh, this fancy restaurant and I'm going to eat here and da, da, da, da, da.
10:32And then, you know, you enjoy the company more than you enjoy the meal.
10:39And you don't remember, you might remember some parts of the meal.
10:43Right.
10:44But that's not the entirety of the memory that you're taking.
10:48That's definitely an interesting way to think about food.
10:50I think it is because I, you know, if you look at a lot of restaurants these days, um, in the, and they sort of like, um, um, the restaurants that seem to be like at the, the forefront of, you know, I don't want to use the word.
11:09What is seen to be.
11:10Yeah, what, yeah, what is, what is seen to be popular, what is seen to be, you know, and you see the one of the things, one of the things that they, they put a lot of emphasis on is, um, this, this, this word and it's, and everybody's using it now, but experiential, right?
11:23Um, where, where they're looking at the package of the restaurant and food, although an important part, it's not the most important part.
11:33And there are a lot of other things to it and, you know, you'd see, um, right here in the city, you have, you know, restaurants that are doing little projected things and they're doing, you know, they're doing it up in the, um, elevated in the sky or, or something like this or doing it when you're blind.
11:52I mean, like, you know, not when you're blind, but like in, in, in pitch darkness, you know, so there are a lot of things that people are putting into play to create this, this.
12:03this sort of like perfect storm, right for you to, and to have a long lasting memory of the experience.
12:11Um, and food is only like a component out of it.
12:15Hmm.
12:15Interesting.
12:16Yeah.
12:16How does it feel now when you, when you realize what, what you've been through to get to this point?
12:23Ooh, that's another layered question.
12:26Yeah.
12:26Yeah.
12:26Interestingly enough, we're doing a little bit more interviews this year simply because we have reached our decade.
12:33Um, so we opened in 2015, March, March the second, I think.
12:37And then like, and then this March we celebrated our 10 years.
12:42Um, and interestingly enough that you, it's interesting that you brought up that question because I've been contemplating that for the past year prior to this, expecting it to be a bit more momentous, I suppose.
12:54But I think, I guess the best way that we could, I could, uh, summarize how I feel is that I, I don't think we're done yet.
13:05Hmm.
13:05I think there's still a lot of things that we have yet to contribute to, um, to the industry, um, to ourselves, to our stakeholders, to the people who, um, who supply to us.
13:18I think it's, um, I think there's just a lot more for us to do.
13:23We've done a lot.
13:24I think we have done a lot.
13:26We're very proud of it.
13:27Um.
13:28Is the way you feel impacted at all by, or how much is it impacted by the Michelin stars that you have also achieved on top of all the other, like, all the other recognition that you've gotten?
13:40And it's two Michelin stars and the green Michelin star.
13:43That's a tricky one because, you know, for many, for many, for many industries, anybody who's in an industry knows that there's going to be some sort of apex, especially when it comes to like awards and accolades and things like this.
13:59And of course it reflects a life work or it reflects, you know, the, the, the, the appreciation that comes with having done something.
14:09Um, and having done it well in the eyes of the industry.
14:13Yeah.
14:13But I, I think often we forget that these accolades are meant to reflect your work.
14:22And so your work with or without the accolade will still continue.
14:26Right.
14:26And I think there's a big differentiation or discernment to make there.
14:31People tend to think that, um, the award kind of defines who you are.
14:38Like whether you've got an Oscar or if you've got like the Ballon d'Or and it defines who you are, but actually it's the opposite, right?
14:45It's the award is defined by the work that you do.
14:48Right.
14:49And, and, and it's at no fault of the award themselves, right?
14:52Because that's exactly what they've set out to do.
14:54Right.
14:54It's just how people kind of reflect on and, and interpret this moment that you're experiencing.
15:01And so it feels to me that, uh, that if we are constant with our approach and the way that we do things and the values that we hold that are important to us, then, then we will continuously be, you know, having an enriched life or at least an enriched career.
15:24So it feels like, based on what you're saying, the award is appreciated, but it doesn't change you and the work that you do.
15:34You're absolutely right.
15:35It, it was a, it was a, a, a posture that I had to assume after receiving it, right?
15:44Like it's after receiving it, I said, oh, you know what?
15:46I, I, I, I have, I should adjust my posture to, to recognize that, that although it's, it has been great and it is great.
15:55Um, it cannot, um, it cannot, I cannot allow it to define how we do things in the future.
16:01Hmm.
16:01That makes sense.
16:02That makes sense.
16:02Yeah.
16:02Because to know that you were already doing good work without this recognition.
16:08Yeah.
16:09Is recognition in its own right.
16:11Right.
16:11Correct.
16:12Correct.
16:12Yeah.
16:12So, I mean, it's great to receive it.
16:14Yeah.
16:14But at the same time, you don't want to be like waylaid by it and like, you know, feel like, okay, like, what do you think, what do you think like this award wants us to do?
16:22You know, is this, is this how we're going to achieve this award?
16:24And then you kind of design whatever that you're doing now, the processes that you've already worked up until now, and I kind of design it so that you're in the running for more awards.
16:36Right.
16:36And you, to feel that kind of pressure is not something that you're not, you're sure you want to lean into?
16:42It's not that kind of pressure.
16:44Okay.
16:44Like, I would rather have the pressure of doing things well.
16:47Right.
16:48And doing things that hold value to us.
16:50That's the kind of pressure I'm okay with.
16:52Um, but like doing the, doing the work for the sake of an accolade.
16:59Yeah.
16:59That doesn't make sense to me.
17:00Yeah.
17:01Because, because the accolade doesn't want you to do that as well.
17:03Yeah.
17:03Because you got it, because the reason you got the accolade was for doing the work you do.
17:06If then you steer your work to win more accolades, then you're steering away from what you were doing.
17:11Exactly.
17:12So, so, so, so that was the stance that the posture that I had to sort of like in my mind had to change.
17:16I'm not sure if everybody else felt the same.
17:17It was just how I felt.
17:19Yeah.
17:19And, and that was, that was how I felt about it.
17:22Right.
17:22Interesting.
17:23How did you go about forming the team that you have now at the restaurant?
17:28Because one thing we hear a lot from, uh, when it comes to running a restaurant is the difficulty in forming a team that, that runs.
17:42I think it's still a challenge.
17:44I think every industry has this, um, every industry has this sort of like hurdle of trying to hire the right talent.
17:55Like you hire the right talent or do you grow the right talent?
17:58Right.
17:58They're both difficult questions.
17:59Because if you hire the right talent, um, given time, um, that talent might leave you or something like this.
18:08And if you grow the right talent, all the investment that you've made, then you might not necessarily reap.
18:14Yeah.
18:15Um, so I think like, you know, that's, that's tricky.
18:18I mean, I think we realize that what we do at the restaurant is for the moment and where we are right now, this is what needs to be made sufficient.
18:24Um, um, I think one of the things that we have been fortunate enough to learn is to invest in the people, regardless of, um, what they will give back to you.
18:41I think investing in people means that you then develop relationships and these relationships then pour back into you.
18:49Um, sometimes, so I think what we hope to achieve at the end of the day is to kind of like develop champions for the, for, for the restaurant.
18:59Um, people who even after being with us for a brief time of like a year or two, you leave and then they go to other places and they still speak well of the restaurant.
19:11Right.
19:11Um, we've not always been successful with that.
19:14I'll be very honest.
19:15Um, but it has been, uh, a very key part of how we, we, um, uh, view our human talent.
19:26Um, the other thing is that we are very clear about what we value as a restaurant and as an organization.
19:34Right.
19:35And because of that, it then attracts to see people who have similar values, similar ideas of, or similar identity and they get attracted to us.
19:46And then often they stay.
19:48So it, it all depends on a little bit of luck as well.
19:55Once you've brought the person in.
19:57I don't think it's luck.
19:58Moving parts.
19:58Okay.
19:58It's more, it's more the scale of probabilities.
20:01Okay.
20:01Like if you go through 10 and you get one, then it's great.
20:05Right.
20:05Like there's a ratio somewhere in there.
20:07So, so you'd have to go through like, you know, 300 for you to get like a good, good team.
20:11But we've been very, very fortunate.
20:14Uh, we've always had at every, at every point, the right kind of person who stepped through the doors.
20:20Um, and very blessed that, you know, they have given everything they, they had at the time.
20:28Um, in whatever brief period that they were with us or what, or whatever period that they
20:34were with us, they've always given, you know, the most of, of everything.
20:38Right.
20:39And that's counted a lot.
20:40And speaking of the restaurant, the name itself is relative, is very unique.
20:45It's a combination of God and food.
20:49What would you, how would you describe the philosophy of the food?
20:54A philosophy, philosophy is such a big word, but you know, how would you describe your food?
20:58How would you describe your food?
20:59I think that's difficult.
21:00We've been trying to describe our food and put that into a sentence for a long time.
21:03Um, is it constantly changing?
21:05Is that?
21:05It is.
21:06I think it is.
21:06And I think if you would look at the, what, you know, what we were offering when we first
21:11opened our doors and what we're offering now is, you know, worlds apart.
21:15Um, however, I think, I do think that it has reflected, um, it has reflected the name
21:23of the restaurant.
21:23It also has reflected, um, our, our commitment to, um, the commitment to the evolution of
21:33the, of the cuisine.
21:34The name of the restaurant reflects the bounty that, that we've, that this, this land's been
21:40blessed with, right?
21:41And I mean, like you look at everywhere, you just throw a seed somewhere, you throw a rambutan
21:46seed on the ground, come back in about two months, you see there's a sprout.
21:49Yeah.
21:50Right.
21:50It's, it's really interesting because there are not many places around the world where
21:53this could happen.
21:54And, um, and that was where the initial sort of like concept or idea came from.
22:01But then the evolution kicked in, in, in, when we started exploring and we started learning
22:07and we started, uh, pushing our boundaries with the knowledge, with the knowledge that
22:11we have.
22:12Right.
22:12And then we realized that, look, this is, we have one of the oldest rainforests in the
22:18world.
22:19Geopolitically, that also includes Borneo, right?
22:22And so that means there, there is a wealth of knowledge.
22:25There is a wealth of, uh, um, um, access to, to things that we can eat without having
22:32to import everything.
22:33Right.
22:34And as a cook, this was what intrigued us the most.
22:39And so then we started bringing all of these weird seeds and weird nuts and weird fruit
22:45and, you know, different types of leaves.
22:47And then we, we, we spoke to different, um, um, indigenous communities and they would
22:53tell us, oh, this is how we use this, this is how we use that.
22:56Oh, we've never used that before.
22:57Or, no, we don't eat bugs, you know?
22:59So, so there were like all these conversations that were going on and it was, it was, it
23:03was fascinating to us.
23:04And, and we had to find a way to bring all of this and put that onto a menu, um, that
23:11we can share with the rest of the world.
23:12So, and that's how the sort of creative cooking kind of like.
23:21Is there a tug of war between trying to be a purist of food and also experimenting with
23:32food?
23:32Is, is there such a thing that when it comes to you creating the dishes that you make?
23:38Oh, I'm not a purist.
23:39Okay.
23:39I'm, I'm, I'm no purist by any account.
23:41At least with the cooking, right?
23:44Um, I think that we will never try and put a nasi lemak on the menu.
23:52We will never change it.
23:54Nasi lemak is a nasi lemak.
23:55Cook it right.
23:56Cook it well.
23:57You know, if we can make the best nasi lemak and it's mind-blowingly good, then I'll put
24:03it on the menu.
24:04But I will find it very hard to do that.
24:06Right.
24:07You know, because a nasi lemak is very conceptual to all of us.
24:10Interesting.
24:10All of us have a very different idea of what a nasi lemak is.
24:13Yeah.
24:13You know, if you grew up eating, say, nasi lemak cooked by, um, um, Chinese, right?
24:20It's different from if you grew up eating nasi lemak cooked by maciks in the packet.
24:26Yeah.
24:26And even then with the nasi lemak cooked in the quads, with the quads, right?
24:30So it's like everybody's got very different sort of perception of what, um, that nasi lemak
24:37is.
24:38So I'm not a Puritan.
24:40Um, I also have a very loose idea of the word authenticity.
24:48Okay.
24:48Um, and I think that what we do with the, what we do with the restaurant is to, or at the
24:55restaurant is to just make sure that everything that comes out conceptually has to be interesting.
25:02And at the end, it has to just taste good.
25:05That's, that makes so much sense when ultimately it just needs to taste good.
25:10Yeah.
25:11I mean, I won't say, I won't say that that's always been a priority for us.
25:15Um, before in some, before at a, at a different level of learning, um, I felt conceptual was
25:25more important than it being tasty.
25:28Um, I soon learned, or actually I very fast, very fast.
25:33I learned my mistake.
25:33And it's got to taste good, buddy.
25:37It's not good.
25:38Then we can't put it on.
25:39If an idea is great, it also needs to be a good tasting idea.
25:43Yeah.
25:43I mean, especially when it comes to food, right?
25:45Because you see, the thing, this, this misnomer is that, that food is art.
25:48I don't think food is art because art has the, art has the, the, the room for it to be subjective.
25:59Art can be different to everyone.
26:01Right.
26:03Whereas food cannot.
26:05Food's a craft.
26:06Food is very objective.
26:09You know, it must taste good or it doesn't taste good.
26:12Right.
26:12Okay.
26:13Yeah.
26:13You can say.
26:14Some people might still have.
26:15Yeah.
26:15Yeah.
26:15Maybe you'll say, okay, too salty for me or too, or not enough salt or maybe too spicy,
26:20but that's just preference.
26:21It's different.
26:22Right.
26:22But there's no room for interpretation for food.
26:25Okay.
26:26It's either it's good or it's not good.
26:28Right.
26:28Right.
26:29It's either you cook the fish well or you don't cook it well.
26:32Right.
26:32Right.
26:32Right.
26:32It's either you cook the rice or it's not cooked or it's overcooked.
26:36Right.
26:37Right.
26:37So there is this sort of like objectivity to it.
26:40Okay.
26:41Okay.
26:42When it comes to creating that new menu or that, that new item on your, on your menu,
26:50what is that process like for you?
26:52Does it start with something, a new ingredient that you want to try out?
26:56How does, what's that process?
26:58Yeah.
26:58It always starts with an ingredient.
26:59Okay.
27:01Often people think that when people put dishes together, it's an epiphany moment.
27:06Epiphany moments are, happen, they do happen.
27:11But I think it also is, it also boils down to many other factors that kind of like contribute
27:20to this stream of thought.
27:21Okay.
27:22And it means that you, it could be something that started off four or five years ago.
27:28It could be a memory from before that.
27:30And then as you work with ingredients, often enough, and if you think about it often enough,
27:38you then sort of like harness all of these, these streams of, of, of linear thought.
27:46And then you just kind of like pull it together into this big ball.
27:51And then from there, there's like a ball of yarn almost.
27:54And then from all of these, like this, this, these individual strains of memory and thought
27:59and, and knowledge then sort of like gets jumbled up.
28:02And then from that, in an epicenter of it, then you find the beginning of a dish.
28:08And then that dish, you then have to cook it, right?
28:11Because it's conceptual first, right?
28:12And then, and then you think about it, it's like, oh, okay, that sounds like a good idea.
28:15Let's try and cook it.
28:16And then you realize that, look, maybe the technical ability doesn't match.
28:21And then you'd have to fix that.
28:23So the process of actually, I mean, for us at the restaurant, putting together a dish is not as intuitive.
28:33It's not fully intuitive.
28:34It's, it's intuitive, but it has to come with a degree of technical process.
28:41Okay.
28:41You need to have the skill to be able to execute what's in your, what's in your head.
28:48You might, I mean, it's like, it's every art, it's like with every other job, right?
28:51I mean, if you're a writer, you must have first your grammar, you must have the vocabulary,
28:56and then you must have an interesting point of thought.
29:00There must be an interesting opinion.
29:02And then you must be able then to express that.
29:04So it's similar cooking, cooking with, I mean, at least without dishes, it's similar.
29:08Now, when it comes to the stresses of managing a restaurant,
29:14I think it would go without saying that anyone who is running a business deals with stresses on a daily basis that can be difficult.
29:26How do you manage this in a way that you can keep going on?
29:31I think the first thing is I'm very clear to myself about the fact that this restaurant and what it has become is not my identity.
29:47It's not, it's linked, but it doesn't define it, right?
29:51You're more than this.
29:52I am me, right?
29:54I am a father, I'm a husband, I'm a son, I'm a friend.
29:59There are many other parts of me that are not defined by this restaurant.
30:04And I think recognizing that although it's a very important part of me, it's a very interesting part of me, it's a very, I've had a great ride, it doesn't define who I am.
30:19And I think like that helps quite a bit because then you also know that, okay, look, I should be able to segregate my, well, not, okay, not segregate, but also, but to be able to fragment my, my emotional ties to it.
30:35That's what stress is, isn't it?
30:37I guess the word is, some would describe it as compartmentalize.
30:40Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
30:42I've never heard it before, but yeah, it makes, that makes sense.
30:45But compartmentalizing to the point where you also recognize that there are times when it's going to overflow.
30:53There are times.
30:54Spill over into, yeah.
30:55Yeah, there are times when it's going to be dichotomies, right?
30:58And there are times where it's going to be the push and the pull, right?
31:03And, and I think recognizing that and, and then, and then like everything else, exercising it.
31:15Right.
31:15Because if there's a discipline to the approach and how you decipher hurdles.
31:22Yeah.
31:22Right.
31:25And if you exercise it, you get better at it.
31:28Do you learn how to do this through trial and error or was it something you inherently were able to do?
31:35Like you didn't even have to work at this.
31:36You just realized you could do this.
31:37I'm not sure.
31:38I'm not sure if, I'm not sure if, um, um, everybody is caught that natural talent.
31:43I don't, I don't, I don't.
31:45Um, I've worked in high stress environments.
31:48Right.
31:49Um, when I was younger, I was in a, I was in a Christian scouting program called the Royal Rangers.
31:56And that kind of like helped define, define, um, um, how you approach.
32:05Like give discipline?
32:06Not just discipline, but like the thought process in, in, in unraveling hurdles.
32:11Oh, okay.
32:12Right.
32:12Like how to work through a problem.
32:14How to work through things.
32:15Yeah.
32:16Yeah.
32:16And I think, you know, and then that plus all the other life experiences.
32:22It's good that you say this because it gives hope to people that if you're not inherently this way, that you can actually learn these skills.
32:30No, it's true.
32:30And it's true because, okay, look, like people say things, sometimes I feel, you know, just out of, people say things like, oh, you know, you're very talented at cooking.
32:41I'm not talented at cooking.
32:43Um, I've just applied myself.
32:46Okay.
32:46Um, I've learned the skill, I've practiced the skill, I've increased my knowledge.
32:52Um, and with that, I've applied myself perseverantly and continuously.
33:01Um, and this is, this is something that, you know, um, I guess, I guess things like, I think this is a lesson that, that, that I've seen, that I, that I've seen.
33:16I mimic through what I've seen, um, like with my father and both, both my father and my mother.
33:21Right.
33:22So you've had role models.
33:23Yeah.
33:23Yeah.
33:23Because they're very applied.
33:25They're very applied people.
33:26You don't know how to do it, figure it out.
33:29Practical.
33:29Yeah.
33:29Yeah.
33:30You know, if we can't fix this, how do you fix that?
33:32You know, like, so how do you fix it?
33:35Um, there must be a logical process, uh, to everything.
33:42And if you can figure that logical process out, then you're already, you've already removed half the stress because the stress comes from the unknown.
33:48Right.
33:48Mm.
33:49Um, yeah.
33:50It gives hope to, to regular people like me that.
33:54No, we're all regular, dude.
33:55Like, I mean, like we're all regular.
33:57I like to believe that.
33:58It sure does not feel that way sometimes though.
33:59Um, you know, when it comes to food there in, in the world that we live in now, it seems like there is a growing, for the longest time, there's been a growing voice in social media of food critics.
34:14They've always existed, but it feels like there's more and more of them, of them now.
34:18Right.
34:18What do you think of people who think of themselves as food critics going around judging food?
34:26Um, is that because there's, there's two sides of the argument, which we hear most often.
34:30One is they create a voice for people, right?
34:33Like they, they create like interest to go and check out a place.
34:37But the flip side is who are these people to even be able to judge food?
34:42What do you think?
34:43Okay.
34:43So I think where I am now, uh, I've not thought about it for a long time.
34:47Um, um, most in part because I've refused to, um, give someone who has very little or no interest in, um, exploring or, or getting to know why a particular business does what it does, um, power.
35:13Okay.
35:15So I think that when you, you know, when you, you give it power, when you give it, when you give it, um, influence over you.
35:26Mm.
35:27Right.
35:27And how it, how it makes you feel.
35:29Mm.
35:30Um, and I will say that I have had many disagreements with how people view, um, not just my restaurant, but other restaurants as well.
35:41Yeah.
35:41Um, and, and a lot of times I felt it come from, from very myopic and very shallow places.
35:48Mm.
35:49Um, but then I also realized that's also not my call.
35:54Mm.
35:55You know, if that person has a, has an opinion and that that's the opinion, then yeah, okay.
36:01Then that person is entitled to their opinion.
36:03And if that person also then, um, wants to put that on, you know, a platform that has like a wide viewership, um, I would think that the business or, yeah, the business would then have to, will then have to endeavor to make that opinion irrelevant.
36:29Oh, okay.
36:31Yeah.
36:31Right.
36:32Right.
36:32That's interesting.
36:34Well, I mean, when we first started out, we were not the easiest to understand.
36:41Mm.
36:41Um, we're still not very easy to understand.
36:44Um, and, and there are people who do feel that, you know, what we do, um, is questionable.
36:54Mm.
36:54Um, and there are always going to be people like that, right?
36:59Um, but on the other end, there have been people who have supported us from the beginning up to now.
37:05Even when we didn't know what we were doing, they felt like.
37:09They believe in you.
37:10Yeah.
37:10Hey guys, I think you're onto something.
37:13Um, it could be really interesting to see how this pans out over the next seven, eight years.
37:17Yeah.
37:18Um, and we've had plenty of those.
37:20In the early years of the restaurant, it was very difficult for, for me to focus on just, to focus on that.
37:29Because I was, you know, you, you, you read the Google reviews and you see the two star ones and the one star ones.
37:34And, ah, man, you know, this, this is the first thing that you see.
37:38But then there were all of these five star ones.
37:40Mm.
37:41All of the four star ones, you know.
37:43Everybody's got something good to say, but, but then there also, but then there's also,
37:50if you were to read through the ones that were lower ranked, you'd also then be able to take a step back and see like,
37:58hey, maybe there is a gap in our business.
38:00There is a gap in our service.
38:02There might be something that we can do to make this better.
38:04This is how the general population feels.
38:07We should be able to do something about it.
38:08Right.
38:09And then you align yourself and then you align yourself and you realign and you realign until you finally feel like,
38:15hey, you know what?
38:15You're not getting as many two stars as you used to be.
38:18You're not getting as many one stars as you used to be.
38:20I'm talking about Google, you know which one.
38:21Yeah.
38:23And then, and then, and then you, you, you come to work and you see like, look,
38:30we've got a full dining room and we've had a constantly, a full-ish dining room for a long time.
38:38So that means we must be doing something correct.
38:40Yeah.
38:40And we must be doing something well.
38:43Is that the ultimate measure of it?
38:45What, how do you measure your, in, how do you yourself measure your success?
38:51I, I, I first got to be able to pay my staff, pay myself, pay my vendors.
38:57It's a business.
38:58At the end of the day, it's a business.
38:59Yeah.
39:00You know, all of these accolades are great, but you know,
39:02also recognizing that they're, they're also what they are is their business tools.
39:05Right.
39:06That really puts it plainly, actually, that, that really answers the question, actually.
39:10It is.
39:10It's, I mean, it simply is.
39:11I think all of us in the, in the industry recognize it as such.
39:14It's great to get recognized, of course.
39:17Yeah.
39:17Emotionally, it's, it's a great reflection of, of the work that you put in.
39:22I'm not, not taking that away, right?
39:23But it is still, and ultimately still a business.
39:26Yeah.
39:26Um, and as far as people who feel they have an opinion to express over a meal that they've
39:37spent on, this is how they want to express themselves.
39:42Right.
39:43And who am I to say whether or not you're right or you're wrong?
39:47Mm-hmm.
39:48You know?
39:48Because everyone's entitled to an opinion.
39:50You're entitled.
39:51And you can have an opinion of an opinion.
39:53And so that's interesting because when someone judges you, then you can judge them right
39:57back as well.
39:58I could.
39:59The funniest thing sometimes based on what we, on the people we've spoken to is that
40:03people who judge the harshest critics seem unable to receive criticism themselves.
40:08That's true.
40:08They defend themselves from criticism, which is ironic because they are the harshest critic.
40:12It's true.
40:13But, but I also find that, you know, what really, really works for us is that you can have an
40:19opinion about what we do, um, but I don't have to react to it.
40:24And I don't have to have one, I don't, I don't have to, I don't have to put validity
40:28to what you've just said.
40:31That perfectly brings us to pretty much the last question before we run to our rapid fire
40:37questions, which is, we, we, it would be ideal.
40:41It would be an ideal life for all of us if we didn't have to live with any regrets.
40:44And while we can appreciate the regrets that we have, whether, whether big or small, right?
40:49If you could advise your younger self, right?
40:54Go back to him and prepare him better, knowing what's coming up and where you are now.
41:00What would you, what would you tell him?
41:02Everything that has happened since the day you were born up to now has had a purpose or
41:10serendipity or, um, an alignment, right?
41:13Everything has had to come to this point where you are right now, right?
41:18And this point where you are right now is not your destination.
41:21There is still a greater amount of things to look forward to, right?
41:25And how you alter, because the more experience you have, the better you're at, the better
41:33you are at navigating the decisions that you want to make.
41:37And if you could see yourself in the next 15 years or so, um, what are the decisions you
41:45will make now?
41:46So if we take that as, as, as, as the statement of, or at least the question of, of, um, the
41:57question of how in, how you're, you, you, you want to sort of like design your life, then
42:02nothing really appears as a regret, you know, because you're going to, because it, because
42:08there's a sense of moment of the sense of space and time is, is where you are now, where you
42:14are in the future and how you got to where you are now.
42:17It's just to be okay with where you are now, when being okay with where you are now also
42:22includes not wanting to go back.
42:26Recognizing actually more so actually to be a bit more accurate, I guess, is recognizing
42:31that everything that you, that has happened from then up to now is preparing you for you
42:37or for now up to the future.
42:39Okay.
42:39We are going into the rapid fire questions now, right?
42:42Yeah.
42:42So just answer as quick as you can.
42:44Yeah.
42:45Got six questions for this.
42:46Can you share a memorable piece of feedback from a guest that resonated with you still
42:51until now?
42:52A friend of a late, the wife of a late friend of mine came to the restaurant.
42:56They're from Germany, uh, on route to Bali.
42:59They came to the restaurant early days and she wrote on a piece of paper, one star Michelin.
43:06This is way before anything.
43:08Um, and she, you know, it's just a post-it note that we had at the restaurant.
43:14She wrote one star Michelin and she gave it to us.
43:15Right.
43:16And I've kept that for a long time.
43:18And, uh, I, and that, that was, um, that was momentary for me.
43:25Like, I mean, like, sorry, that was, that was monumental for me.
43:27Yeah.
43:27If you weren't a chef, what would you be doing now?
43:30So, interestingly enough, when, before I picked up, before, when we went for an education
43:35fair when I was young, um, the three picks that I, that we had, that I had for, um, for
43:44a career, well, the first was actually fashion design.
43:47Oh.
43:47Um, thank God that didn't pan out.
43:50Um, as you can tell from my fashion.
43:54Uh.
43:55No judgment.
43:56It looks great, I think.
43:57Like, you can, you can put batik on anything and it'll work.
44:01Um, the second was, uh, fine arts and then the third was being, uh, was being a chef.
44:07All right.
44:07So, I think something that would have been, would have been something to do with, with,
44:11with, you know, actually, actively creating something with my hands.
44:14So, if I had to answer that question right now, I'd probably say carpenter.
44:17Share with us a guilty pleasure food you secretly love.
44:21Ooh, family mart, um, chocolate ice cream.
44:24Wow, that's very specific.
44:25Yeah.
44:26Yeah.
44:26Because the kids love it as well, so.
44:28You and my niece both.
44:29Yeah.
44:29Yeah.
44:30Eh, but they make a nice ice cream.
44:31Like, it's a nice candy.
44:32You have to cook blindfolded.
44:34What's the...
44:41What's a food trend that needs to go away forever?
44:47Well, that's a hard one.
44:47Because I'm not really sure what food trends exist now.
44:50Oh.
44:51Oh, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.
44:52Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
44:53And people are gonna, you're gonna get so much of a hate for this one, I think.
44:58Um, hot pot and steamboat.
45:02They need to go away forever?
45:03Forever.
45:04But come back every Chinese New Year, right?
45:05I don't know.
45:06I don't care.
45:07Oh.
45:07I really don't know.
45:08I don't care.
45:09I thought we could be friends up to this point.
45:10Yeah.
45:11Well, I was about to say Yee-sang, but...
45:12You're drawing a line in the sand now, Darren.
45:15And everyone behind the camera seems to be agreeing with you.
45:18I know, because...
45:19Look, you're supposed to be on my side, people.
45:21Dude, hey, hey, you're paying money for you to cook, you know.
45:25Yeah.
45:26Okay, you're right.
45:27That's just for you.
45:28Just imagine for me.
45:30Yeah, you're a person...
45:31I'm paying money for me to cook.
45:32Yes, yes.
45:32People pay me to cook.
45:33They should pay you, they should pay you.
45:34You're right.
45:34Okay.
45:35So, yeah.
45:36This is a much longer argument that needs to be had.
45:39Oh, you know what?
45:40When my wife hears this, I'm in trouble as well.
45:43We will send her a personalised copy.
45:45Yeah.
45:45With just this clip.
45:47Okay.
45:48Rate these from easiest to toughest food critic.
45:52Right?
45:52Easiest to toughest.
45:53Family, your team, your guests, or yourself?
45:58Easiest, I think, would be me.
46:00Oh, okay.
46:01Yeah.
46:01Yeah.
46:02And then, followed by?
46:03Then, I think, would be the team.
46:05Mm-hmm.
46:07And then, I think, guests.
46:10And then, your family's at the top.
46:12If we're just talking about my two sons.
46:15Okay.
46:15Then, yeah.
46:16We should just be talking about your two sons.
46:18Because I love the fact that they're at the top.
46:19Yeah.
46:20Okay.
46:21They're pretty tough.
46:21So, I have to work a lot harder for that.
46:23What's your favourite thing that you cook?
46:25Everything is a favourite for the moment.
46:28Okay.
46:29Yeah.
46:29Because you know how to please them.
46:31Yeah.
46:31So, just stop, you know, what buttons to press.
46:34Right.
46:34And then, you'll be okay.
46:35You're a good father.
46:36You're a good father.
46:37I try.
46:37I try.
46:37I try my best.
46:38Finally, we ask this of all of our guests.
46:41Imagine this.
46:42If you had the opportunity to make one change as Prime Minister of Malaysia for a day,
46:50you're going to be only for a day, what would it be and why?
46:54I would revisit our agricultural policies.
46:57I would pay some attention to food security in that we try to reduce or at least look at reducing some of our imports and dependency on imports.
47:12I would look at including Indigenous communities into that conversation because they've got a lot of knowledge into what is...
47:26Sustainable?
47:28Not sustainable, but like what's available in our forests and what we could use.
47:33Right.
47:33So, I think like there's a lot of knowledge there.
47:35There's a lot of deep knowledge there.
47:37That we're not tapping into?
47:38That we should be having more access to.
47:41Okay.
47:42That's definitely an interesting answer.
47:44Definitely something worth.
47:45I will vote for you.
47:46And thank you for sharing everything that you have today.
47:49We appreciate that.
47:50And thank you, Darren, for joining us.