Warfare experts rate 14 scenes from "Lord of the Rings" and "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" and judge how real they are.
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00:00No flail was ever that big, no flail ever had a chain that long, but in this context,
00:11it works great.
00:12Hi, I'm Toby Capwell.
00:13Hi, I'm Shane Adams, the owner of the Knights of Valor.
00:16My name is Roel Knaanendijk.
00:17Hi, my name is Neil Kamimura.
00:19I'm Dr. Michael Fulton.
00:20I'm Jim Kent.
00:21Today, we'll be looking at scenes from Lord of the Rings and judging how real they are.
00:28The whole battery of archers is going to really mess some orcs up, which is what's happening
00:34there.
00:35I can't see the types of arrow points they're using, but I see in a lot of films people
00:39using broadheads and shooting at armor, and that wouldn't work.
00:42There were certain arrow points that were designed to go straight through armor, like
00:46a bodkin.
00:48It's pointy, but it's bulbous, and it's stiffer, and it was designed to kind of punch through
00:52armor.
00:56His elbow's a bit high, but I'll give him that.
01:00When you've got some big orc dude with a stick coming at you, you're not always going to
01:04get a chance to set and make the perfect shot.
01:08But in order to speed shoot to that kind of level, you'd need a pretty light poundage
01:14bow.
01:15I'm going to go four, but it's cool.
01:22If I use a quiver, I tend to use a back quiver.
01:25It gives you a nice low profile.
01:27Quivers you tend to either wear on your hip, or your side, or your back.
01:31When you're in the woods, you tend to want to keep a fairly slim profile, so a back quiver
01:36is quite useful.
01:41Arrows do make a noise when you shoot them, but they don't quite make a noise like you
01:46expect them to, unless you use something called a flou-flou, which is an arrow with really
01:51big feathers on the end.
01:53The noise that they make is so satisfying.
01:58Now he's got this weird grip on the string.
02:02He's got the arrow on the left side of the bow, I think, and he's holding the string
02:07like that, which isn't what you do.
02:09If you really wanted to hold the string upside down, you'd need the arrow on the right side
02:15of the bow.
02:16I imagine that's more of an aesthetic thing than anything.
02:24You can hear, as he draws up, you can hear the bow creaking.
02:28Now this is a trope, and that's when the bow comes up to full draw, you hear it creak.
02:33Bows don't creak.
02:34If your bow's creaking when you come up to full draw, it's probably going to explode
02:37on you.
02:38But the archery's a little bit all over the shop.
02:41I'm going to go six.
02:45Yeah, I'm going to get some hate in the comments for that one, but I love Lord of the Rings,
02:49so don't come for me.
02:50Hi, I'm Shane Adams, the owner of the Knights of Valor, full contact jousting company.
02:55I've been jousting for well over 25 years.
02:57I have 20 international jousting championships under my belt.
03:07The goblins open up the door and they charge down.
03:11That's a true maneuver.
03:14That can easily happen, and I'm knocking down because they caught them at surprise.
03:18You take 10 guys and put them behind each other and take speed a horse, that 2,000 pounds
03:26or 1,500 pounds for a lighter horse, charging into that, it's a bowling ball knocking down
03:32bowling ball pins.
03:33The question is, can you keep up that inertia and keep on going?
03:37The initial knockdown will knock the wind out of you.
03:39It might not kill you, but it's the other 50, 100, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 horses trampling
03:47over top of you just like cutting grass on a Sunday afternoon.
03:51You're going to mow down what's in front of you.
03:55Very true and could easily happen, and it did happen historically, absolutely.
04:02You see King Theoden wobbling off balance a little bit.
04:08Could be the fact that the actor wasn't comfortable in the saddle, picking up a weapon and wielding
04:13it on horseback, again, is that much more attention to the weapon and less attention
04:18on what you're actually riding.
04:20When I train people how to joust, I always tell them from the hips down rides the horse,
04:27from the hips up does the task.
04:31The upper body can stay glued and have a good platform to be able to wield that sword or
04:37couch that lance or spear that ring or whatever your job entails on that given specific day.
04:52All the goblins this time prepped and prepared with the long pole arms locked down and locked
04:58in place.
04:59It's a truly historical defense against the heavy horse charge to the extent that they
05:06actually stopped.
05:07A lot of the knights would stop doing that heavy horse charge because that horse was
05:11worth so much to them.
05:13If they actually had to fight, sometimes they'd dismount and run in and fight on foot and
05:17not take their horse.
05:19You can train a horse all your life to do this one specific job, and all of a sudden,
05:25it's go time, and the horse realizes it's really stupid, and he'd rather you just go
05:29and fight yourself, and he was going to go back and hang out with the sumpter.
05:33They had a lot of good historical elements in there and a lot of good action that could
05:38have been seen on a battlefield, so I actually give it a seven.
05:42Hi, I'm Toby Capwell.
05:43I'm curator of arms and armor at the Wiles Collection in central London.
05:47Since I was a kid, I've been riding horses and fighting in armor.
05:50I've taken part in competitions, armored combat, all over the world.
05:56Could not be undone.
06:02That is metal.
06:04Nothing else looks like metal but metal in close-up.
06:07All that decoration is etched into the steel with acid.
06:12This is film armor, as good as it gets.
06:18Now, there are lots of great spraying techniques, and you can spray plastic to look reflective,
06:23and increasingly, it looks more and more like metal, but it doesn't behave like metal.
06:28Their armor's a little, you can see it's a little bit too flexy.
06:32There's something about metal that it has a weight, it has a rigidity that rubber and
06:38plastic and polyurethane don't have.
06:44He walks into the battle, and you know everything you need to know about this guy, and it's
06:49all coming out through his gear.
06:51We've taken real 15th century armor styles, mostly German, and then turned it up to 11.
06:58The Sauron is wielding a mace, and maces are real.
07:02It's a hafted weapon with a wooden or a steel haft with a flanged or bladed head on one end.
07:10So all the weight of the weapon is balanced to the end, and it's a concussion weapon,
07:15and you're trying, rather than to cut or pierce your opponent, you're trying to smash through
07:20their defenses.
07:21That is way bigger in proportion to him than any real maces were.
07:27A real German Gothic, high medieval maces of the 15th century are, they're usually pretty short.
07:36They're like just a little bit, you know, more than a foot or a bit more long.
07:41The heads are quite small, but they've got these really sharp blades on them, and you're
07:46focusing your energy on a really small area.
07:50A weapon doesn't need to be massive to have the effect that it needs to have.
07:56But massive always reads well on screen, especially when you've got a dark lord of Mordor.
08:02And how successfully does it use armor and weapons to bring its characters and its themes across?
08:09I gotta give this 10 as well.
08:12I love the sort of evil Statue of Liberty sort of, you know, aesthetic here.
08:22I think the star of that scene is the flail.
08:26Real flails are derived from farm implements, the articulated staffs that are used for threshing wheat.
08:34And if you have a feudal peasant army and they need to take whatever hurty things are to hand,
08:40a flail, you know, agricultural implements are good.
08:44It's a staff with just an eyebolt articulation and then another piece of wood.
08:49When such an idea is weaponized more extensively, they add a short length of chain between the staff and the head.
08:58Flails almost exclusively are a lower class common soldier infantry weapon.
09:04The knights didn't use them.
09:07Because they're kind of scary and they have an inherent mechanical intrigue,
09:14they've become much more famous and much more popular to the kind of popular conception of the medieval knight than they really deserve to be.
09:24But it's great here. I mean, again, it totally works here.
09:27No flail was ever that big. No flail ever had a chain that long.
09:32But in this context, it works great.
09:35I can't think of another weapon that would have the kind of visual and story character-driven impact that this has in this scene.
09:47It's got to be a 10 out of 10.
09:55Yeah, this is a great entrance of a character.
09:58Tolkien imagined the Rohirrim as Anglo-Saxons who fought like knights on horseback.
10:05Because the Anglo-Saxons didn't.
10:07They rode horses, but they got off to fight.
10:10They didn't fight on their horses.
10:12The design of the helmet is derived from early medieval examples.
10:16He really should have his chin strap done up.
10:19The helmet is riding a bit too high on his head.
10:22The brow of the helmet, the horizontal edge there, should be right down on his eyebrows to really protect the front of the skull.
10:30You want to bring that down as far as it can go.
10:33And it can go right down onto your eyebrows.
10:35So I'll stick this on.
10:37This is one of my own. It's made for me.
10:43Now you see, that brow is right down on my eyes.
10:47And it's sticking out beyond my skull.
10:52So a weapon comes in, it can't get to me.
10:55The skull, it might get there, but that's still safe.
11:02Things are often more highly decorated, even for practical fighting, than modern people often imagine.
11:08They're going for armor that looks kind of architectural.
11:11Like the dwarves build caves and they work with rock and it's under mountains and stuff.
11:18So they're looking for a kind of blocky aesthetic.
11:21It's starting to look a bit too much like polyurethane here to me.
11:26There's something about metal that it has a weight, it has a rigidity that rubber and plastic and polyurethane don't have.
11:35I got to dock them a couple of points here for the fit and the chin strap.
11:39But it's still got to be like an 8 out of 10.
11:42Hi, I'm Dr. Michael Fulton. I'm an expert at siege warfare and medieval fortifications.
11:54These are terrible catapults.
11:56The stones seem to somehow speed up as they leave the basket.
12:00It should slow down from that point.
12:02If you look at how big this chunk of stone is, it's significantly larger than the engine that's supposed to be throwing it.
12:12Now throwing heads is a real thing.
12:14This is an element of psychological warfare.
12:16It's definitely an intimidation tactic.
12:18When the First Crusade reached Nicaea in 1097, both the attackers and defenders threw heads at each other.
12:26It took place more often when you had groups facing off from different cultures.
12:32You don't put a trebuchet, a big counterweight style trebuchet, on top of a tower for a few reasons.
12:39It is heavy, so the tower actually has to be able to support the weight of the engine.
12:43You get a little bit more range, but that horizontal range is actually less than the vertical height that you've elevated the engine.
12:52If you put it on the ground behind the tower, all of a sudden you don't have to worry about the weight of the engine.
12:58If you put it behind the tower, all of a sudden you don't have to worry about supporting this engine and all its stresses.
13:03And you actually get the shielding of the wall in front to protect it from the enemy's machines, who are presumably trying to break it up.
13:11There is this desire or need to make them really big and really impressive.
13:16So these were important weapons, but nowhere near as exciting as Hollywood loves to make them out to be.
13:22To attack a big curved wall is just like attacking any other wall.
13:26Rounded towers are designed purposely to deflect incoming artillery and such.
13:32Cohesively, a rounded tower is stronger because it doesn't have corners, so you don't have the same kind of points of stress.
13:40So if you're trying to undermine a tower, a round tower is slightly stronger than a square one.
13:46Cities built on cliffs that you'd attack.
13:50Why don't you just build on top of the cliff?
13:52As real as an orc siege of a make-believe city can be, I'm still going to have to give this one out of ten.
13:58Hi, my name is Neil Kamimura. I'm a bladesmith blacksmith from Hawaii.
14:08If you look at the first initial scene, there's one, two, three, four, five, six people.
14:14One, two, three, four, five, six pieces of broken sword.
14:17And then when they go to put it back together, it's only two pieces.
14:20So flux is, it's like borax.
14:23So basically, as it heats, it's almost like melted glass that kind of cleans it so that it allows it to stick together.
14:30As you're forging something on a flat surface and you're hitting it with a hammer, it would never maintain that fuller.
14:37And the fuller is that curved spot down the middle of the blade.
14:42It's on both sides. So as you hit it, it would just flatten it out.
14:46The correct way to fix a broken blade like this would be to take the handle and the guard off, cut it up into smaller pieces,
14:56add more material and forge weld it again and forge a new blade if you want to keep the same steel.
15:09Look at the guy swinging.
15:12You can just tell by their swing that they've never touched a hammer in their life.
15:16And it's not nearly hot enough to just butt weld a forged blade together.
15:21To forge weld, it's at 2300, it's a brighter color.
15:25It's not orangey and like, it's white.
15:30Six, because they were actually forcing air into a coal forge.
15:36They were putting flux on there to try and forge weld it.
15:39My name is Roel Knoenendijk. I'm a historian of ancient warfare at Lincoln College, University of Oxford.
15:44I specialize in classical Greek warfare.
15:52If the old man's in range, why isn't everybody shooting?
15:55They're making all these people on the walls hold their arrow for a really long time.
16:00And these are really heavy bows, so it's exhausting.
16:02I am finished!
16:08Plate armor is intended to keep arrows out. Bows aren't guns.
16:11They are meant as a suppressive weapon. You use it to keep their heads down.
16:15And so, of course, you would still use it even against people wearing plate armor,
16:19because even the feel of arrows sort of pinging off your armor or falling around you
16:23is going to make you much more cautious.
16:26I am finished!
16:31Obviously, attacking walls with ladders is just a really, really risky proposition and usually doesn't work.
16:36If you believe they don't have either the courage or the strength to resist you, then you might try this.
16:41You just put a lot of ladders against the walls, swarm up, take the place.
16:45If you expect it to be defended, it puts you in such a position of vulnerability,
16:49approaching the walls one at a time, and it's just not going to go well.
16:53But obviously, it is a very common tactic.
16:55I mean, you can go to the British Museum right now and see depictions of people assaulting walls with ladders.
17:00Yeah, so, I mean, the problem when you see this kind of siege scenes in movies
17:03is that they always seem to make it really easy for the attacker.
17:05If they want to go right up to the wall, they can just do that.
17:07If they want to bring siege engines, if they want to bring catapults or rams or towers up to the walls,
17:12they can just do that.
17:13It's like they're trying to make it possible for this place to fall.
17:16Whereas in reality, I mean, one of the most common forms of fortification is very simply,
17:20if you have the ground like this, you dig a ditch and you pile up the sand behind it.
17:24Then you build your wall on top of that.
17:27And now what do you have?
17:28If the enemy wants to approach you from the front, they end up in the ditch.
17:31Suddenly, the wall they're facing is much higher.
17:33If they want to bring siege towers or battering rams, they fall into the ditch.
17:37They would have to fill up the ditch first before they can get to you.
17:40All that time, they're right under your walls.
17:43In movies, they never do this because that would slow things down.
17:45They want to keep the assault engaging.
17:47That's why a lot of the tactics that they show you are actually too simple
17:51and missing a lot of the points that would actually be used.
18:02Well, firstly, that hill is much too steep, so everybody would die.
18:05But these horses would just slide to their deaths, unfortunately.
18:10But if we take that out of the equation,
18:14I always thought it was validated by the fact that he uses the light of the sun
18:19to blind the orcs, which means they lower their pikes at the last moment.
18:22So the idea is that he creates those openings that the horses need to see
18:26in order to push their charge.
18:28So you see them sort of wavering and braking just before the charge hits,
18:32which is exactly the point.
18:33That makes it conceivable that this could have worked.
18:36I mean, it is still a fantasy, and they're doing many things wrong.
18:38On the other hand, it certainly hits a number of points where you're like,
18:43well, this is realistic, using sort of layered initiative
18:46in order to overcome the defenses.
18:48Yeah, I mean, 4 out of 10, 5 out of 10.
18:57Him slapping the lances with his sword, right?
19:00Not only is that not historical,
19:01that was made up by that guy right there for this scene.
19:05He just thought that would be a cool thing to do,
19:07so he did it, and that they kept it in the movie.
19:09And it works so well that you almost want this to be a real thing,
19:14and people sometimes ask me, like, is that a real thing?
19:16Is that something that ancient or medieval commanders would do?
19:20It's like, no, Bernard Hill did that,
19:22and now it's in this incredible depiction
19:25of something that looks like pre-modern warfare.
19:28But that's just cinema, that's just in this movie.
19:38So cavalry charges usually would have been a lot slower
19:41than you see in movies,
19:42where in movies they spend a lot of time galloping.
19:44They're kind of going at full speed into the enemy,
19:47and they do that for a long time
19:48because it gives a sense of speed and drama,
19:50and it gets that nice hoofbeat sound.
19:52They have to be tight, they have to be close together.
19:55And so in order to maintain that,
19:56you've got to make sure that you don't go too fast too soon,
19:59because the horses will have different paces.
20:01So what they would actually do is they would approach slowly.
20:03Maybe they would break into a trot at some point.
20:06When they got near the enemy, they will break into a canter.
20:09But if they even gallop at all,
20:11that would only be the last couple dozen meters.
20:19Some people argue that the effect of a cavalry charge
20:22is purely psychological,
20:23so you'd never actually crash into a prepared enemy.
20:26You would always kind of be riding through an enemy
20:29that's already broken and running away.
20:31So you're kind of just slapping them in the back
20:33while they've already been driven off.
20:35Another theory is actually that horses can be trained
20:37to crash into a solid object.
20:38This idea that you see in this scene of them throwing bodies,
20:42there's a testimony by, I think, Winston Churchill,
20:45actually, from Omdurman,
20:46where he describes this happening,
20:47that the infantry was literally just bodied by these horses,
20:50and that that's what would happen
20:52when the cavalry slams into them.
20:59I think the movie is trying to signal this idea.
21:01It's like, we know that it's going to be very difficult.
21:03We know not everyone believes
21:04that cavalry can charge into a prepared position and carry it.
21:08So we're kind of trying to anticipate that by saying,
21:10look, these orcs were already wavering.
21:12And so when they start wavering and opening up gaps
21:15and lifting their weapons,
21:16that's when cavalry has the opportunity to overrun them.
21:25I mean, elephants are basically
21:26just a sort of souped-up fantasy version of the war elephant.
21:29In ancient times, when they were first introduced,
21:31they were very effective,
21:32because any army that hadn't seen these animals before
21:35was going to be absolutely terrified.
21:37So what you often see infantry do
21:39when elephants charge them is just make space,
21:42just make canals, make pathways through the formation,
21:45just get out of the way.
21:46And the elephants will prefer not to be fighting you
21:49and rather just be running on.
21:50That's what the Romans eventually figured out
21:52they should do against Carthaginian elephants, for instance.
21:54In this case, I think they're too close together,
21:56so it's going to be really difficult to create those channels.
21:59The other option is essentially to overwhelm them with missiles.
22:02Using light infantry, using archers and other kind of skirmishers
22:06to try and build a screen against elephants
22:09is usually very effective.
22:17He's throwing his lance at the rider
22:19who's controlling the elephant,
22:21which is, I mean, I guess it's a way to try and disable them.
22:25But the problem that you're facing really isn't
22:27the fact that there's a driver controlling the elephant.
22:29The problem is that you've got an elephant coming at you.
22:31And so really what you want to do is get that animal
22:34to either move past you harmlessly or turn away.
22:38In terms of cinema, in terms of emotion,
22:40this is the best scene.
22:42This is the best kind of ancient warfare scene
22:44that you could possibly imagine.
22:45Return of the King is always going to be awesome out of 10.
22:47If you wanted me to put a number on this,
22:49it's very difficult to say because it's fantasy,
22:51but I'd probably give it an eight.
22:58The Orc army manages to block the river,
23:01bring the water level down,
23:03and that allows them to approach the city.
23:05That's both based on historical examples
23:07and something that would realistically happen
23:09as a way to overcome a city's defences.
23:11One of the great examples of that, it's a story,
23:13we're not really certain if it's historical,
23:15but Cyrus the Great took the city of Babylon that way
23:18by diverting the Euphrates through a couple of ditches
23:21that he had dug around the city,
23:23which allowed his army to essentially
23:25infiltrate the city through the dry riverbed.
23:27This is why they call him Cyrus the Great,
23:29because he knows the use of a good ditch.
23:31Obviously, what they're doing here,
23:33when they're shooting these catapult bolts
23:35hundreds of metres up into the sky
23:37to bring down this massive rockfall,
23:39I think that's more a narrative shortcut
23:41than a real tactic.
23:43It takes, obviously, a long time
23:45to kind of divert an entire river,
23:47so the only times that you'd be able to do that
23:49is if your enemy is already besieged and bottled up.
23:51What is going on with those walls?
23:53They're so basic.
23:55I mean, there's no cover for the archers, right?
23:57They just have a basic parapet.
23:59They don't have any battlements.
24:01They don't have any cover.
24:03They don't even have a roof over it or anything.
24:05I mean, if you have thousands of years
24:07to engineer your defences,
24:09you can put a roof on it.
24:11So, what you really want on a wall like this,
24:13partial barriers that go up to the full height
24:15of the wall,
24:17and then you have a wall that's kind of
24:19partial barriers that go up to the full height
24:21of a person standing on the wall
24:23so that they can have cover or they can choose
24:25to be exposed in order to shoot arrows.
24:27When you realise, as well, that this wall doesn't have
24:29any kind of ditch or other earthwork in front of it,
24:31it's really relying on the river
24:33to keep the enemies at a distance.
24:35If they can approach, then even the defenders
24:37are going to be very vulnerable here.
24:43Horses actually can do some fighting.
24:45They can be trained to be
24:47an aggressive weapon or aggressive animal
24:49on the battlefield. In ancient times,
24:51this was very rare and very much worth remarking upon.
24:53We have, like, one story
24:55of a guy during the Ionian Revolt
24:57that Herodotus describes, a Persian general
24:59whose horse was also known to fight,
25:01so he would kick and bite. But in medieval times,
25:03I mean, when they bred these specific, like,
25:05these purpose-bred war horses,
25:07they apparently were taught to be very aggressive
25:09and they were taught to fight on behalf of their rider.
25:11So, it becomes more normal
25:13over time to actually get these horses
25:15to be quite dangerous on their own, essentially.
25:23Catapults were sometimes used
25:25to try and launch either diseased animals
25:27or corpses of humans
25:29into a besieged city
25:31to try and both create panic
25:33but also spread disease.
25:35And so you could use that to kind of,
25:37you know, worsen the lot
25:39of the besieged.
25:46This is a fictional weapon
25:48that they call the Ravager.
25:50I mean, it's very common for attackers
25:52to, instead of trying to get on top of the wall
25:54with ladders and towers,
25:56to just attack the fabric of the wall itself.
25:58So, even in, like, ancient times,
26:00you have these beautiful Assyrian reliefs
26:02of siege scenes in which they're just going
26:04at the wall with shovels and pickaxes.
26:06Instead of picking into the wall,
26:08they decide to try and pull stones out
26:10with this kind of torsion force.
26:12I think that's weird.
26:14I don't think that's real.
26:16But at the same time, I mean, that's fundamentally
26:18something that does
26:20have a resemblance to siege hook,
26:22which is this kind of weapon that,
26:24essentially, a bar with a reinforced metal tip
26:26that you use in order to
26:28pry apart the stones of a wall.
26:30I mean, a lot of these walls, essentially,
26:32are just stacks of stones, right?
26:34Early walls, in particular, don't even have mortar.
26:36They are not stuck together.
26:38So, if you can loosen the stones
26:40or crack them or bring them out,
26:42then, gradually, you'll form a hole.
26:44And especially, you know, ancient walls,
26:46a lot of ancient walls are just mud brick.
26:48So, if you smash into them with force,
26:50they just pulverize.
26:52There's a lot of fantasy technology here.
26:54On the other hand, in terms of its basic idea
26:56of a siege scene
26:58through a dry riverbed, I think that's
27:00a really interesting option. I would give it a seven.
27:02I mean, movies always love to use fire, right?
27:04It's going to be very spectacular.
27:06But, obviously, this would be very rarely used,
27:08especially when you're defending your own village.
27:10You're not going to set it on fire.
27:12Defenses are often built
27:14to try and pin the enemy in place.
27:16You surround them from the walls
27:18and you can fire down at them.
27:20Now, this town, obviously, has no defenses at all,
27:22which makes it more difficult.
27:24Blocked off by a wall,
27:26you can't really do anything.
27:28So, you can't really do anything.
27:30You don't have any defenses at all,
27:32which makes it more difficult.
27:34Blockading the enemy, pinning them in place,
27:36that's when they're at your mercy.
27:38They did sort of portray that pretty well.
27:44Ambushing with archers
27:46is usually quite effective.
27:48You try to hide these people,
27:50and then they pop out when the enemy's most
27:52sort of blocked and confused
27:54and doesn't know where they're going.
27:56But we shouldn't overestimate how lethal that would be
27:58because the enemy's sort of soon going to be able
28:00to regain enough organization to throw their shields up
28:02and then your arrows are not going to be very effective.
28:04Unless you have overwhelming numbers.
28:06You wouldn't necessarily try to defend a village
28:08that had no fortifications,
28:10but if you had to, yeah, you'd get up on the roof.
28:16The idea that the orcs can actually
28:18fire back at them and kill some of them,
28:20that's very unrealistic
28:22because the villages are going to be completely in the dark.
28:24The light is down there where the fire is.
28:26As far as the orcs can tell, the arrows are coming
28:28from the night.
28:30You do some of these things like funneling the enemy,
28:32trying to block their way, trying to hit them
28:34when they're confused or when they're distracted.
28:36We give this maybe a 4 out of 10.