The Washington Commanders are paying Daron Payne and Jonathan Allen a lot of money. Should they explore options this offseason to move on from one of them?
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00:19You heard Earl reference this here, Tobes, and you kind of gave me this idea.
00:25I want to kind of tag you in here to give me your thoughts on it, but they quite simply
00:31did not get their money's worth this year.
00:33Talking about the local 53 between John Allen and, uh, drawn paint.
00:39Now a lot of that is Alan's injury, but it wasn't as if he was tearing the cover off
00:43the ball to use a baseball parlance before he was injured.
00:46Alan, you know, the, the years of, of him being a havoc reeking, maybe double digit
00:51sack potential, usually settling in that six to eight range, uh, the quarterback hits
00:56the tackles for a loss, et cetera.
00:58Just wasn't the havoc reeker this year at 29, not to say he's a bad player.
01:02That's not what this is.
01:03This isn't, you know, a condemnation of him as work ethic or otherwise spec remains when,
01:09and the capitals dealt with this for the last couple of seasons before they were able to
01:12move on.
01:13And again, you don't want to be flippant or dismissive of these guys careers, but when
01:16you pay a huge percentage of your cap to Nicholas Backstrom, TJ O'Shea, uh, I'm getting
01:21whose nets off and you don't get elite production from those guys for whatever reason, it's
01:25hard to be really good.
01:27And lo and behold, the capitals weren't really good.
01:29You retool, you reallocate that money, better things are happening.
01:32So for Alan injuries, a big part of this year's story and pain, I was dead wrong about him.
01:37That was a guy advocated signing.
01:38Cause I thought there was a breakout, not a, I'm about to get paid.
01:42Let me play hard and play great.
01:44And then kind of go back to what I was before.
01:46I thought he developed and this was going to be the new normal.
01:48I was wrong about that.
01:50They've been kind of let down with a whole bunch of salary cap allocations to do defensive
01:54tackles that for defense, it couldn't stop the run and they weren't wreaking havoc in
01:58the past game.
01:59Yeah.
02:00I mean, that's why you're paying them, right?
02:01They were supposed to be the impact players and they just are not making an impact.
02:04And I thought to be fair, I thought that John Allen actually played fairly well when he
02:09came back from the injury.
02:12Was he playing Aaron Donald style?
02:14Was he paying maybe up to what he was being asked to?
02:16I don't know that I would say that, but the problem is it's been so inconsistent, Danny.
02:20It's like sometimes you see it's routine when you go out to training camp to see these guys
02:25just dominate.
02:26Now, some of that's Washington's old line.
02:28Isn't great, but you'll see these guys from time to time, just take over an entire day
02:31of practice and you'll walk away going, wow, those dudes are still special.
02:35And then you turn on the TV on Sunday and week one, and you're like, wait a minute,
02:39where are those guys at that were special in training camp?
02:42And you just don't see them enough.
02:44There's times that you'll see them show up.
02:45You know, I think earlier this year there was a Duran pain drive where he tackled for
02:49loss sack bat down a pass like that's awesome.
02:53That's what we pay you to do, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough.
02:57And so for those guys to be getting paid what they are at this point, you kind of know what
03:02they are, right?
03:03Like they can show flashes of being really good and they can show it in stretches, but
03:07I just don't know that it's worth keeping going with this experiment.
03:11They moved off the edge rushers, right?
03:12The four first round pick experiment that we talked about for so long with young sweat
03:17Allen and pain, it just, they moved off the edge rushers.
03:21I think it's now time to move off the, at least one of these defensive tackles.
03:25I think it's pretty easy to move off of John Allen.
03:28You know, you, you don't really have guarantees left.
03:31I think you'd save about $10 million, whether it's a trade or just flat out cutting them.
03:36So I think you move on from Allen.
03:38You're kind of more tied down with pain, although they're, you know, Earl was kind of alluding
03:42to it.
03:43There are some ways, whether it's, you know, post June one trade, and you can maneuver
03:46the cap a little bit there.
03:48Maybe you could do something like that, but I would keep one of them around.
03:50It probably be pain just because of the, the, the cap issues, but I probably move on from
03:55John Allen.
03:56To me, the thing is you drafted Johnny Newton, right?
03:59He was someone that I don't know that any of us expected them to draft because frankly,
04:02I don't know that anybody expected him to be there in the second round for them to draft.
04:06And when you think about what Johnny Newton is, you know, he didn't necessarily have the
04:09best rookie season, but he's a little bit undersized is more of a pass rushing defensive
04:15tackle.
04:16And I think he can get to that level.
04:17I think there's a reason that Adam Peters kind of looked at him and wanted to get him.
04:21Now you pair him with a run stuffer.
04:23And if Duran pain can be that guy, you think back to the Tampa playoff game, when Duran
04:28pain was on the field, they didn't really run the football that great.
04:31When Duran pain was off the football field, that's when Bucky Irving started getting going.
04:35So there's some impact there.
04:37But if he can play a Jordan Davis style role and Johnny Newton takes a step forward, then
04:41maybe you're okay there.
04:43But I'd probably move on from Allen at this point, because it just, I just don't know
04:46that you're going to get, like you said, the money that you're paying for him.
04:50You're not going to get that sort of production.
04:52So there are complications and this is why general managers and front office folks make
04:57a lot of money.
04:58Okay.
04:59Cause you gotta work through all these machinations.
05:01So there's not any more guaranteed money left on John Allen's deal.
05:05So they could move on from him with a, a moderate dead cap.
05:09You never want to have too much, excuse me, dead cap, but I believe it's a $6 million
05:13dead cap.
05:14If I've got that number, correct.
05:15You could spread that out post June 1st over two years and have it be a $3 million dead
05:19cap.
05:20Again, not ideal, but you are saving a pretty good chunk of change you could use on somebody
05:23else.
05:24That is an Avenue.
05:25You could do what maybe is being done here with, with Debo Samuel, potentially in San
05:29Francisco, you could trade John Allen to somebody wouldn't get a huge return back, but you could
05:34do that.
05:35And then presumably Allen would negotiate a contract extension with that team.
05:39And it kind of tear up some of these numbers and it would be more affordable to them.
05:42You could do something similar, similar with the Ron Payne.
05:45You really, you'd have a hard time moving on from him this year.
05:49It's a $25.8 million dead cap it, if you were to cut him, that's not an option.
05:55But also what also to me is not an option is his $26 million cap it this year.
06:00I can't do that.
06:01I'm not doing that with him again.
06:03This is not a drawn pains, a bad player.
06:05It's not some screed against him.
06:07And I'm not sitting here, you know, beating the drum, like, you know, Eagles, Eagles fans
06:11tell telling you he's a bum this out of the other, I'm telling you that I need to do better
06:16there.
06:17Right.
06:18I thought he was going to be the guy that grew into the player where you go as, you
06:21know, future guys signed after he does, whether it's Christian Wilkins or, you know, some
06:26of the other defensive tackles that have signed since right.
06:28I'm not a bouquet in Baltimore, Chris Jones in Kansas city, et cetera.
06:33I thought he was going to be ascending into that group.
06:36I was dead wrong about that.
06:37I don't see it now.
06:39Maybe they do.
06:40Maybe Peter's a company go.
06:41No, no, no.
06:42You watch.
06:43He'll break out in this system, in this scheme and year two with Joe Witt.
06:46And you know, we don't need to move on from, we don't need to get weaker there because
06:49your point is, and Toby, I think it's good when I don't speak for you, but your point
06:53is it's not as if he's bad as part of a rotation.
06:56It's fine.
06:57If money's no object, but to me, money's an object.
06:59I'm now to the point where I can't afford bad contracts.
07:06I can, if I'm the wizards and I've got no designs of winning this year, right?
07:09I'll tell you, I'll give me your garbage.
07:11Give me your veteran that you don't want anymore.
07:13I'm happy to do that.
07:14As long as I get a pick or two, my window is right now, this minute, every red scent
07:22to me needs to be spent on somebody premium.
07:25I got that menace in my division.
07:27I got those monsters I got to deal with.
07:29I got that offensive line.
07:30I got to beat, I got that defensive line.
07:31I got to protect against.
07:32I mean, that's what it is to me for Philadelphia.
07:35So if you're building slowly, let's say Jayden Daniels had a regular rookie season where
07:39he showed signs and it was fine.
07:40And you know, they went six and 11 or seven and 10, cause they, they got a couple of breaks
07:44or two.
07:45I'd go, yeah.
07:46Can I really afford to get worse?
07:47You know, this is a normal Redskins and WFT you're now the stupid name type operation,
07:53right?
07:54Without competent leadership, I would go, what's Ron Rivera going to do with that cap
07:58space?
07:59I'm like, you could do a lot worse than Ron Payne.
08:00And my normal default is they're going to do worse because every time they go shopping,
08:04it's worse.
08:05That's not the case now.
08:08I want Adam Peters pulling levers.
08:11I want him rolling the dice and wheeling and dealing and chucking and jiving and making
08:15call after call, after call, after call, because his shooting percentage is good again.
08:20And there, and there are things that I think he missed on.
08:22I think there are, I think the front office, you know, work perfect this year, but that's
08:26unreasonable.
08:27Nobody's perfect.
08:28My husband took Jalen Rager instead of Justin Jefferson.
08:30That's a stupid pick, right?
08:32I could have made a better pick.
08:33Seriously.
08:34I wouldn't get, I wouldn't have gotten everybody else that he got.
08:37So to me, the question boils down to what do you do?
08:42Do you keep both and improve the defensive end spot, right?
08:46It's probably a mid forties.
08:48I think it's 45, 46, depends on your math, a salary cap between the two guys talking
08:52about paying an Allen.
08:53Do you simply cut Allen, take the, take the cap space, go grab somebody.
08:59Do you try to trade?
09:00No.
09:01And you probably won't get a ton back.
09:02There may be some negative cap application if you traded pain.
09:06So it's basically keep both, move on from both or keep one and not the other.
09:11Right?
09:12Those are, those are your three silos.
09:13Those are three categories.
09:14Keep both move on from both or keep one.
09:18What are you doing?
09:19I would keep one.
09:20I keep to Ron Payne just because of the cap thing and, and some of the things that you
09:24have to deal with and what you're going to have to deal with dead penalty and all that.
09:27I'll move on from John Allen.
09:29And I think that Deron pain is still a decent player.
09:32He's someone who's under contract.
09:35I'd rather just have him on the roster than have to deal with some of the dead cap it.
09:38He's not like you said, he's not great.
09:40This is, I think with both of these guys, it's the same thing that we talk about with
09:44all the time.
09:45You're playing great money for a good player, right?
09:48I think just about anybody in the national football league say, would you take John Allen
09:52to Deron Payne?
09:53Absolutely.
09:54Would you take him for 20 plus mil?
09:57Probably not.
09:58Right?
09:59Like that's kind of the conversation here.
10:00And so for John Allen and Deron Payne, not to have the impact that you're paying them
10:03for.
10:04I think you have to move on from one of them, Johnny Newton, hopefully, you know, full off
10:08season where he's healthy, he gets to kind of grow into a bigger role and understand
10:12the defense.
10:13And instead of getting thrown into the fire and with no training camp and preseason reps,
10:18he'll get a full off season of getting ready to roll.
10:20Hopefully you see that impactful guy.
10:22Because remember when people were talking about Johnny Newton, they're talking a first
10:25round of defensive tackle, right?
10:26Like that's what John Allen, that's what Deron Payne were.
10:29And we've seen, like I talked about earlier, you've seen the flashes from those guys.
10:32You know, there's nothing wrong with them when they are going well, it's just the inconsistency
10:36with them.
10:37I'm moving off John Allen.
10:38I just think it's time he's getting to that age.
10:42I'm sure he'll go somewhere and have an impact, but I don't think he's a premier guy anymore.
10:46And you can easily get that one off the books.
10:48Deron Payne sticks around just because some of the cap stuff and then you pair him with
10:52Newton.
10:53And I think you kind of tell Payne, hey man, you're going to, you need to be an A plus
10:56run stuffer.
10:57That's what we need.
10:58You're looking at Philadelphia.
10:59We need someone who can clog up two dudes in the middle of that offensive line and let
11:02Johnny Newton kind of go hunt.
11:04And I think if you have Newton take a step forward and Deron Payne plays that run stuffer
11:08role well, then I think your defensive line in the middle can be fine.
11:12I just, I would move off of Allen.
11:14I smell what you're cooking there.
11:15So to me now, Grant was more cynical about this than I was.
11:18And I'm not criticizing.
11:19I'm just saying what happened, the conversation, what Allen did to come back meant a lot to
11:23me.
11:24Now you hate, you don't want that.
11:27There's a reason I'm not qualified to be, there's a million reasons why I'm not qualified
11:29to be the GM, but this is the kind of thing I'd have a hard time dealing with.
11:33Like him basically being like being told you could re-aggravate this thing at any point
11:37in time and you'd miss forever and him going bleep it.
11:42Now the cynical person might say, yeah, but he's going into potential free agency and
11:48he's trying to make himself some money, right?
11:50So it's worth the risk to him.
11:52The person like me says, this is his first shot at any point in time and doing something
11:57meaningful and he did everything he could to come back and his teammates respect him.
12:02So their first, when they kind of didn't roll their eyes at it because it's like fake rah,
12:07rah, you know, guys tell the guys, no players know that they can tell the difference between,
12:11you know, Instagram rah, rah, uh, and the real stuff.
12:15And to me, the way they react around John Allen is the real stuff.
12:18Like that meant something to me.
12:19He's got an emeritus kind of Bobby Wagner role to me, like a post useful dominant player
12:24role to me where I'm fine paying a premium for that.
12:27That's a leader.
12:28I would keep John Allen, even though he's got no guaranteed money.
12:31I think it's an $18 million cap hit, uh, this, this coming year, actually got to double check
12:35that before I start spouting off about, no, it's 22.
12:39So I know that's a premium.
12:40I know that's too expensive.
12:42That's too much for the production I'm going to get, or in this case, I won't get, but
12:46I would pay that premium, see if I could renegotiate with him and kind of tear it up and it makes
12:50it more affordable.
12:51Who knows?
12:52It'd be willing to do that or not, but I would try.
12:54I would keep him and whatever I had to do to move on from pain.
12:59I would do that.
13:00Cutting.
13:01It was not an option.
13:02I guess again, that dead cat pit makes it not worth it.
13:03Same thing that kind of deal with Andrew Wiley this year, there was no financial incentive
13:06to move on from Andrew Wiley.
13:07Andrew Wiley was going to be on the team because if you cut him, it's a dead cat pit.
13:10You might as well just have the guy play for you.
13:12Even if I don't think a ton about it, now you've got some flexibility.
13:16I would try to trade Alan, I mean, a pain rather, knowing that I'm not going to get
13:21great value.
13:22People will see that and go, I can't believe you got a sixth for drawn pain.
13:26I need that money to go somewhere else.
13:28I need that money to be in a defensive end.
13:30I need that money to be a corner.
13:32I need that money to be another pass rusher or who knows.
13:37I need that money invested elsewhere.
13:39I can't pay great money for fine too often.
13:44I'm doing that with Alan, knowing that he's a different leader than pain is.
13:47And again, such a criticized pain.
13:48It sounds like I'm just beat up on the guy.
13:49I don't mean that at all, but that's not who pain is.
13:52Pain is not that I'm give the pregame speech.
13:55I'm the guy that's going to talk Saturday night that has everybody kind of, you know,
13:58dab in their eyes because it's, it's that meaningful to someone like that's not who
14:01he is.
14:02And it's not a criticism to not be that I'm not that a lot of guys aren't, but Alan is.
14:07I think that's worth it to me to try to keep him.
14:09But I think it's an interesting conversation.