Graham Bean and Mark Atkinson discuss the upcoming Calcutta Cup clash between England and Scotland at Twickenham.
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00:00Hello and welcome to this episode of the Scotsman Rugby Show. My name is Mark Atkinson, Sports
00:06Editor, and I'm joined today by our Chief Rugby Writer, Graeme Bean. Graeme, good afternoon,
00:11how are you?
00:12Good, Mark, thank you. How are you?
00:15I'm well, I'm well. Are you all set for another busy week of Six Nations action? It's Calcutta
00:20Cup week.
00:21Yes, heading down to London on Thursday. That's when Scotland are going to name their team.
00:29They're flying in from Spain from their training camp. They'll name their team on Thursday
00:33and then they'll go to Twickenham on Friday for a training run and the match is, of course,
00:39on Saturday. So, yes, looking forward to it very much.
00:43Scotland-England is always a weekend to look forward to. For Scotland, it's been a particularly
00:50good fixture of late. We'll come to that in a second, but you mentioned the teams and
00:54England have been the masters of surprise in this tournament, naming the team at random
00:59points during the week and they've done the same again. They've gone early. Steve Bortwick
01:02has picked his 15 to play at Twickenham. Any surprises in that team, Graeme?
01:10Not really, just the one change. I mean, they did very well in that last game against France,
01:14of course, so I suppose we shouldn't have been expecting too many changes. Just one,
01:19Olly Chesham's come in at the second row for George Martin, who's been, I think, managing
01:24a bit of a knee issue. So, just the one change. So, it means he's kept faith with Marcus Smith
01:30at full-back. He had a bit of an up-and-down match against France, but he's continuing
01:35with him at 15, which means Finn Smith starts again at 10. He did really well against France.
01:40Yes, it's an interesting team. It's an interesting team. I think they'll take a lot of confidence
01:45from that win over France.
01:47Absolutely. The manner of the win as well, such a late try, and Twickenham was certainly
01:53a lively place. It hasn't been that lively for England, anyway. The last couple of times
01:59that Scotland have gone down there. Talk us through Scotland's recent history in this
02:04fixture, because it's quite remarkable, given that for so many years England dominated the
02:08Calcutta Cup, and now it's Scotland's turn to have a little bit of the upper hand.
02:13That's right. It's been this incredible run where Scotland are actually going for five
02:17in a row for the first time ever in the fixture, which is incredible, especially for those
02:23of us of a certain age. You remember Scotland went down there and losing year after year.
02:30I think it was 38 years they went without winning at Twickenham between 1983 and 2021.
02:38Since then, they've really busted the hoodoo. Four wins in a row, just one defeat in seven
02:46under Gregor Townsend. That was at Moray Field in 2020, I think it was. As head coach,
02:55Townsend taking Scotland to Twickenham three times and not lost any of those games,
02:59which is incredible.
03:01A lot's made Graeme about Townsend's Ireland record and how difficult he's found that fixture,
03:08but on the flip side, as you mentioned, he deserves so much praise for the way that he's
03:15made Scotland the force to be reckoned with when they play England.
03:19Yeah, I don't think anybody gets the credit he deserves. As I say, it's one defeat in seven
03:24against England to take over, which we're kind of taking it for granted a wee bit now, I think.
03:31People tend to say, oh, this England team's not very good, but a couple of those wins
03:35that Scotland have had under Townsend were when England were ranked second in the world.
03:41It's not like they've been playing a mediocre team. These are good wins.
03:47I think with anything, you keep doing it and the luster wears off a little bit,
03:52but I don't think we should take it for granted by any means.
03:56Absolutely not. And Graeme, you've been to Twickenham a few times. You've experienced
03:59firsthand the stadium and the atmosphere. How hostile a place is it to go and get a result?
04:05It is loud. Yes, it is. It can be. And it's steep. You know, it's a steep stand and it's
04:11quite an intimidating venue. It feels much bigger than Murrayfield. And I think the
04:18stands kind of close in on you a little bit. But Scotland stood up to that really well. You know,
04:23the last three games have gone down there. That incredible draw in 2019 and then the two wins
04:29since then. So, I mean, yeah, it is an intimidating venue. And I certainly think that, you know,
04:36there'll be a lot of confidence in the home supporters after that win over France. I think
04:41they feel like England have turned around a little bit and it's a significant win for them.
04:45But Scotland, you know, I think they've got a good chance going down there.
04:50Scotland go down there a little bit stung, losing 32-18 to Ireland, quite convincingly. And of
04:55course, there's been a little bit of criticism of the team. Their forwards were called weedy
05:00in one English column over the weekend. And there's been a little bit of the knives are out for
05:06Townsend and his players. A response is therefore expected. What sort of team do you expect
05:13Gregor Townsend to pick on Thursday and talk us through some of the conundrums he faces?
05:18Yes, that's a good question. Yeah, the weedy comment has caused a little bit of a stir.
05:25I think Pete Horne has been amusing it to fire up a few of the Scotland forwards in the aftermath
05:31of the Ireland result. But we asked Jamie Ritchie about it and he had no knowledge of this weedy
05:38comment so he's not reading the papers as much. But yeah, I think the big decision that Townsend
05:45will probably make for him because they're around Finn Russell and Darcy Graham who had that
05:50terrible collision against Ireland where they clashed heads and both had to go off.
05:58You know, we're told that they're both progressing well and they both have a chance of playing
06:03against England. But, you know, they'll have to go through all the protocols, pass all the
06:10various tests because they both did suffer a concussion and it's a 12-day minimum turnaround.
06:23During the match Darcy Graham came out of it far worse. He looked really bad. He was getting a lot
06:28of treatment on the field and then he was carried off with his head and neck in a brace. Whereas
06:35Finn Russell was able to walk off. But, you know, the latest bulletin is they're both kind of
06:41progressing at the same sort of rate and, you know, it's just a case of just keep them to pass
06:48these tests and see where we are by the end of the week. So I would imagine if Russell is not fit to
06:55play, I would suspect Tom Jordan will remain at 10, which is where he slotted in after Russell
07:00went off against Ireland. That means that the number 12 becomes vacant again and there's Stafford
07:08McDowall who went in there against Ireland. But he's also got Cameron Redpath as another option
07:12now. He's not been involved in the first two rounds of the Six Nations due to an injury,
07:18but he's recovered from that. He's played two matches for Bath. So he's an option. He made a
07:23Scotland debut against Twickenham four years ago and was excellent in that historic win in 2021.
07:31And I'm sure that'll be at the back of Gregor Townsend's mind. But we can't discount Stafford
07:38McDowall. He played well when he came on against Ireland and he did start the first game of the
07:42Six Nations against Italy as well. So that's a decision he's going to have to make. The other
07:47one, Darcy Graham on the wing. If he doesn't make it, Kyle Rose on the squad, so has Aaron Reid.
07:54And they called up Ross McCann this week as well. So there are other options on the wing. I would
07:59imagine Kyle Rose at the head of the queue, just based on the fact that he was on the bench
08:05against Italy in the opener and did come on in that game. Is it unfair, Graham, to suggest that
08:11Scotland's hopes rest on the availability of Russell and Graham, given how big players they've
08:18been, not just for Scotland, but actually in this fixture as well? Russell's got an incredible record
08:21in this fixture and Graham has scored tries at Twickenham in the past. Yeah, I think Russell in
08:28particular, just because of his position and his world-class ability, he dictates the game for
08:36Scotland, doesn't he? And as you say, he's played in all four of these wins over England.
08:42Across the past four seasons, Scotland have had to do without Darcy Graham for the last two
08:48Six Nations Championships. But again, he's a world-class player, devastating on his day.
08:56Without being disrespectful to Kyle Rose, I think he is a level above him. And Graham would
09:03be a strong contender to go on the Alliance tour this summer if he can maintain his form and stay
09:08fit. So, I think they are pretty key to Scotland's chances, but Russell in particular, I think,
09:18just has an ounce in this fixture. He has experience and he just seems to have the
09:23measure of England, doesn't he? He does, he does. It feels sometimes, Graham,
09:27when talking about injuries and the build-up to the Six Nations, he was dominated by injuries.
09:32The captain, Sione Ciupo-Lotto, obviously out for the whole tournament. Scott Cummings, who
09:36I personally feel has been missed in the pack. Are we in danger of looking at a campaign here that
09:42is being sort of tarnished by fitness problems and causing Townsend sort of real issues that
09:49a couple of months ago seemed pretty unpalatable? Yeah, but it's the nature of the game, isn't it?
09:54I mean, Scotland do like to say they've got a lot of strength and depth. Whether it's as good as
10:02they think it is, we don't know. I mean, the results will bear that out or otherwise, but
10:08it's just a physical game, isn't it? I think you've just got to roll with it. If you lose key
10:14players, it's unlucky, but everyone's in the same boat. There's a lot of injuries across the board,
10:22but yeah, when you lose your chief playmaker, that is a problem. So, fingers crossed for
10:30Finn Russell and for Darcy Graham this week. Absolutely, absolutely. Of course, this is the
10:35midway point of Scotland's Six Nations campaign. They have two matches after this, at home to
10:40Wales, head coachless Wales, we should add, after Warren Gatlin's departure, and then away at France
10:47on the last day. This feels like a watershed moment, really, for the Six Nations campaign,
10:54a decision campaign. How vital is it that Scotland, even in defeat, put in a response,
11:01a proper performance down in Twickenham, in terms of how the rest of this campaign shapes up?
11:08Yeah, I think in terms of the title, they've got to win, and even then, it's a tall order.
11:15I think on the back of the performance against Ireland, Scotland do need a big game this weekend.
11:20I think that was really disappointing. I mean, the way they started that match was
11:25like everything that could go wrong did go wrong, and I think there was a real sense of
11:34deflation after that one. A good performance, yeah, obviously that'd be great, but I think the
11:42win's the thing, isn't it? Especially the fact that people got used to Scotland winning this
11:47fixture on a regular basis, so I think another close but no cigar moment wouldn't be that
11:54satisfactory, really. I think it's got to be a win. Well, let's hope so, Graeme. It's a big week
12:01for the Scotland national rugby team. We'll have all the coverage on Scotsman.com and also across
12:07the Scotsman and the Scotland Sunday print editions of the Bumper Scotland Sunday sports
12:12section, I would imagine, on the back of whatever happens at Twickenham on Saturday afternoon.
12:17Graeme, thank you for joining me. Safe travels down to London, and we'll catch up again soon.