The Scotsman Football Show - from Zagreb
Alan Pattullo in Zagreb and Mark Atkinson discuss Scotland's upcoming match against Croatia.
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00:00Good morning and welcome to the Scotsman football show. I'm Mark Atkinson, Sports Editor, and
00:07I'm delighted to be joined by our Chief Football Writer, Alan D'Atullo, who is in a cafe in
00:13Zagreb by the look of it, ahead of Scotland's latest national game tonight against Croatia.
00:19Alan, how is Zagreb treating you this fine morning?
00:23Yeah, not very nice, very mild. I found a little square in downtown Zagreb for a coffee,
00:29just to ponder the next 48 hours or so. We arrived in heavy rain last night,
00:36very into Zagreb last night, possibly match the mood of much of the Tartan army who are
00:44travelling here. It's a very different story to this time last year when I remember being in,
00:49sitting in a pavement cafe in Seville, feeling very differently about the world and about
00:56life and about Scotland's football team. Full of excitement back then, weren't we?
01:03Scotland on the brink of qualifying for Euro 2024 and yet here we are a year later. If someone
01:08had said then Scotland would go a full year without a competitive win, you'd think they were
01:15mad. But here we are, still looking for a first competitive win since beating Cyprus back in
01:21September. Yeah, it's been a challenging year for Scotland, there's no doubt about it. Although
01:28I think you've actually pointed out in that run of pictures there's been some really difficult
01:31games against top quality opposition. It doesn't get any easier really against Croatia in this
01:38Nations League group A encounter. What's a reasonable expectation of the Scotland team
01:45in this match given, as you pointed out, where they are right now, where we are right now as a nation?
01:53Well, I think there's an element of realism. I think we have to concede it's obviously a
02:00league A of Nations League. It's a tough, tough group. Tough games coming up every month
02:08and obviously compounding the current struggles and the current woes is a raft of injury call-offs
02:15which has left Steve Clarke looking at a very compromised squad in terms of who he's had to
02:23bring in. There's players there which I guess nobody would think would be on the brink of
02:28playing for Scotland right now but here we are. I'm glad to have been called up. There's players
02:33like Nicky Devlin and Jack McKenzie. Interesting reward for Aberdeen's great start to the season.
02:41It's good to see they've been included. But yeah, it's a very different looking Scotland squad than
02:47we might have imagined a few weeks ago. Although in saying that, I was just jotting down our 11
02:54possible starters. The actual first 11 still looks okay, still looks pretty strong I think.
03:00It's just perhaps on the bench. It's not quite the same resources but the 1-11 looks okay.
03:08Fascinating to see what goalkeeper Steve Clarke chooses. I'm guessing, we're all guessing,
03:14I think Craig Gordon is going to make a remarkable return back to the Scotland
03:18international team. We all thought we'd seen the last of him against Finland back in May,
03:25back in our pre-Euro 2024 warm-up. An emotional night, wasn't it, that night? He got presented
03:32with a goalkeeper shirt number 75 on the back by Steve Clarke and I think he did say to Steve
03:37Clarke that night, this isn't the end, I'll be back. I'm sure even Steve Clarke was going,
03:42yeah, yeah, right, Craig, but here we are. He's been called back again. I just think it's a
03:49remarkable story, a real privilege to be here, to see him. If he is given a number one jersey,
03:53to see him come on and, well, I suppose he'd create a record but he's already the oldest
04:01ever Scotland player. He's just sort of underlining that by playing aged 41.
04:08It's a remarkable story and it's worth touching upon. Of course, Scotland don't have Angus Gunn,
04:13the usual number one. He has a rib injury and there are a number of defenders out and the
04:19older John McGinn is out. So, as you say, the Scotland squad is quite threadbare in comparison
04:26to what it has been in the past. We'll go through your team in a second, Dal, but we should start,
04:31I suppose, that goalkeeper. Craig Gordon, John Carver said to you earlier in the week that
04:37Craig Gordon is essentially a 38-year-old, not a 41-year-old, given all the injury he has. He's
04:43suffered in his career. That's a valid point, but even still, to be where he is right now is quite
04:50the tale. However, does the fact that Craig Gordon coming back in from the cold, because it essentially
04:55was him being cast aside when that Euros squad was paired down to his 26, does that show where
05:05we are goalkeeper-wise for Scotland, given that the next two options are uncapped, unlegal here,
05:11John McCracken, who's had a reasonable season, and then Robbie McCrory, who's only just got
05:15himself back into the Kilmarnock first team. Is that an indictment of where we are now as goalkeepers?
05:21Yeah, well, possibly. Possibly. I mean, we've been spoiled, haven't we, over the last 20 years in
05:25terms of goalkeepers? There's never really been much of a need to ponder who plays at number one.
05:30We've had David Martial, we've had Alan McGregor, obviously Craig Gordon as well.
05:36Suddenly, Angus Gunn emerged at the right time, didn't he? It's been good to have him the last
05:41couple of years. But beyond him, you're right, it does seem a bit scant in terms of who options are.
05:52I guess it's slightly circumstances as well. Liam Kelly was obviously an option. He's not
05:57playing for Rangers, so obviously he's not going to be in the mix.
06:02Robbie McCrory hasn't been playing for Kilmarnock, obviously back in the team now,
06:06so that's good. But, yeah, you cast around. I was even looking up Jordan Archer, remember?
06:14I was just wondering, I wonder what he's doing now? I look at PGA, I look at Soccerbase, and
06:21he's not played football, I think, for a couple of years now. And I think, goodness,
06:24Scott Bain. Scott Bain playing a midweek for Celtic against Sligo Rovers, and that's friendly.
06:32You thought, you know, Scott Bain, he was a Scotland goalkeeper not so long ago.
06:36Now aged 32, coming up to 33, I think, a good age for a goalkeeper. He's nowhere.
06:41So, yeah, I think it is worrying. And, well, thank goodness for Craig Gordon, in a way,
06:48because it's not a place, tomorrow night isn't a place, I don't think, to give someone like
06:52John McCracken their debut, or Thoreau McCrory, who's obviously not so experienced.
06:59You know, I think it's going to be necessary to play somebody with Craig Gordon's experience,
07:04and he's really, really let Scotland down, hasn't he?
07:08Yeah, he's been a fantastic servant for this country. As you say, the Maximir in Zagreb,
07:14pretty hostile place to play football. Scotland have, of course, won in Zagreb in the past.
07:20You made reference to that in your newsletter. That feels like an awful long time ago.
07:24The part of the reason why you wouldn't want to throw an inexperienced goalkeeper
07:28into that team is because the back four itself is missing some of its key players,
07:33or is it a back five or a back three? I mean, you say you've jotted down your team there, Alan.
07:38What's your formation, first and foremost? And secondly, how do you comprise a defence that's
07:43missing Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, Kieran Tierney, Scott McKenna, et cetera?
07:50Yeah, well, I've gone for a back four just because that's what Steve Clarke obviously
07:55played last, doubleheader, and it didn't go... We obviously lost, Scotland lost both matches,
08:01but it didn't go horribly wrong, did it? I mean, there was an element of misfortune
08:06last month in both those defeats. Although, I mean, Portugal obviously
08:12peppered the Scotland goal with shots, but only managed to get that victory late on.
08:17So, I think the back four did seem to work. I mean, Steve Clarke did say last month he was
08:22wanting to try some new things, try and be a bit more creative. A back four kind of allows that.
08:31So, I've gone for... Well, I mean, I guess the real thorny questions that we were discussing
08:35earlier is the centre-halves, and Grant Hanley, such a great favourite of Steve Clarke's,
08:42described him as his man last year for the Euros. He's had a very, I suppose you'd say,
08:49stop-start season, but it's barely started, has it, for Grant Hanley at Norwich City? He's not
08:54played at all, not played much at all. So, I think there'd be a real question over whether he would
09:00stop. I have got him, Hanley, in my team, along with John Suter, who's obviously been very good
09:04for Rangers this season and playing regularly. Great to see him back, actually, after losing out
09:09on a place at the Euros. So, I've gone for the pair of them. Obviously, I think Ryan Porteous
09:15would be another player that comes into the equation for that centre-half position. But I
09:21just think Steve Clarke will opt for Hanley. As we say, in difficult conditions, difficult,
09:30possibly hostile stadium, I think someone with his experience will help. So, I've gone for the
09:36pair of them at centre-half and then Fulbach, Robertson and Ralleston.
09:43I think there's little doubt about who will play at Fulbach because
09:46Robertson, the captain, obviously, there's no Greg Taylor either. He's pulled out of the squad.
09:50Then you look at right back, well, Nicky Devlin may well get his first-cap at some point,
09:55but you wouldn't expect it to be from the start. The Hanley situation is fascinating, isn't it,
10:00Alan? Because you've got this guy that Steve Clarke has often said is one of his dependents
10:05in this team. Yet, Hanley has been moved out of the Norwich side. He's played three minutes
10:12since late August. He won a sub in a win over Derby, I think it was. Yet, and we saw in the
10:20last set of pictures, there's a slight element of rustiness about Hanley, especially when giving away
10:25the late penalty against Poland. Ryan Porteous has now reinstalled himself into the Watford team,
10:31having played his fourth of the last six. Do you still feel Hanley offers that greater security
10:37in such a situation for Scotland? Do you think Clarke sees it that way as well over Porteous
10:42or indeed Souter? Yes, I think so. Hanley recovered quite well after that Poland
10:50game last month. Clarke showed then that he trusts him. I don't know, is Porteous still
11:01carrying the mark of that terrible red card against Germany? I wonder if that's still
11:09lingering in Steve Clarke's mind. He can't afford that to happen again against Croatia. He can't
11:16afford to go down to 10 men. I've got a feeling he might offer Hanley, but we'll find out more
11:23perhaps from asking that question tonight at the pre-match press conference. Not that I would
11:26expect him to answer one way or the other, but he should seem to get his musings on that.
11:33The Hanley situation is fascinating because he's been very good for Scotland by and large
11:39of late, but he can't play for his club. Maybe he comes in fresher. Let's look further up the
11:43pitch. It's quite strange to think of a Scotland midfielder without John McGinn, but that is the
11:47case. They asked the Miller man about a hamstring injury. He's not available for Saturday night's
11:53game. I'm guessing if we're going to play a back four, are we looking at a 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1 formation
12:01with the midfield, do you think? Yes, I've got Gilmer and McLean possibly sitting midfielders.
12:09Then McTominay behind the centre forward. I guess the interesting one is Ben Doak,
12:21whether he starts or not. I've just got a feeling he might. He's obviously playing football,
12:26which is the Middlesbrough. That was always the thing I counted against him, wasn't it? He wasn't
12:31playing enough. He wasn't playing enough, but he is playing now. So, let's give him a try.
12:36I've just got a feeling Steve Park might opt for that. On the right, possibly,
12:43McTominay and maybe Ryan Christie on the left.
12:46Yes, I find it hard to argue with that, Alan. I think the question for me about Doak is,
12:52do you see him as a player who can come off the bench and attack hard defences, or do you try and
12:58maximise, say, 60-70 minutes out of him? If you don't play him, who comes in instead?
13:03It would be someone like James Forrest who would come in ahead of him. We have to give Doak a
13:10chance at some point, don't we? I mean, he's such a talented player. He's doing well at
13:16Middlesbrough. As you say, he's playing. We spoke to him earlier in the week and
13:20detected quite a confident young guy who's really driven to do well for Scotland. It means a lot to
13:27him to be part of this group. He obviously suffered the painful injury that denied him a
13:35probable place at the Euros. This is a guy that's hungry for success. We have to try and make the
13:41most of him. He's a talented player. Yes, I think this is exactly the kind of game
13:45you want to play him in. As you say, he was in line to play in the Euros. Here we are a few months
13:50later. Let's give him a shot. It's a competitive game, obviously, but it's not a qualifying game
14:00as such. These are the games we should be trying out. He's the one I think the Tottenham Army all
14:07want to see. I'm quite excited to see him. You saw him, you spoke to him, Mark. A young head
14:17and mature shoulders is the impression I got from your article. When you get presented with an
14:2618-year-old, and I'm starting to show my age now, I feel very old in front of these guys now. Not
14:32so long ago, I thought you could relate to these kids, but you can't now. You wonder what we're
14:38going to get from this guy because a lot of 18-year-olds, understandably, are quite overawed
14:43by speaking to the media. He sat down and said, I'm getting better at this, and I'm getting more
14:48used to it. He answered the questions really well for 15 minutes. I think every single journalist
14:54that was there came away with the impression, wow, this guy is an impressive character.
15:00He was insightful. He spoke maturely. You're thinking, well, that's his mindset when he's
15:10off the pitch, on the pitch. I felt like Scotland could trust him, and I felt that he would have the
15:15lucidity of mind to make the right decision. When you're a young winger, that's often the most
15:20difficult thing. You can beat a player because you've got the natural skill set, but it's actually
15:24what you do with the final delivery or final shot, pass, whatever it may be. I'm excited by Ben
15:31Doak. I'm excited because he's playing football, Alan. We've heard so much about Ben Doak. We've
15:35actually seen very little of him. I hope that he takes his chance if it comes his way. I don't see
15:44any better options on that side. I think Steve Clarke has shown in this past couple of
15:50international matches that he's prepared to be a little bit more risquƩ with his team,
15:54and that would lend to playing Doak. I wonder, though, we're debating Doak, Alan, but I think
15:59the striker's quite an interesting one. We obviously don't have Laurence Shanklin. He's
16:02got a minor hamstring complaint and is back at heart receiving treatment. Kevin Nisbet's come
16:06into the squad. You would not expect him to start. Lyndon Dykes did quite well,
16:11I felt, in playing in the last couple of games. Will Shea Adams take his place,
16:17doing well at Torino, missed the last squad but back in? Or do you stick with Dykes?
16:23I think I'd go with Adams, I think. He's obviously playing at a high level, started well in Italy,
16:31and I just think he offers more than Dykes. There'll be a lot of running to be done against
16:38Croatia, I'm sure. I just think Clarke in the past has shown that Adams is his man for the number
16:47nine role, I think. I'd be surprised if it isn't him. I'm glad he's been called up because I've
16:57liked him and I've always liked him. He started well in Aberdeen in a song. He didn't do much
17:04else apart from score against Dundee on a song live a couple of weeks ago. I like to see that,
17:09one chance, one goal. He's a good option to have to come off the bench.
17:16Yeah, it's good to see Kevin Nisbet back fully fit, scoring goals, very, very accomplished
17:22finisher when the ball does come his way. Of course, he had scored for Scotland in the past,
17:27away from home, scoring against Ireland. So, a good option for Steve Clarke to have.
17:33Alan, despite all of this, debating the team, ultimately Scotland, the expectation of Scotland
17:37in this Nations League group is that they're going to prop it up behind Poland, Portugal and Croatia.
17:43Do you feel that Scotland need to get a win in one of these two matches, be it in Zagreb or be it
17:49at home to Portugal to stave off the threat of relegation?
17:53Oh yeah, I'd imagine so. I'd imagine so. But I think more importantly, it's probably just
17:59need a win just for the general mood of the nation, general mood of the football nation
18:04and just for Steve Clarke's own benefit because he's a proud man. He doesn't want this record
18:09to continue. It's currently eight competitive games without a win, which is the worst of all
18:15time. And yeah, I think more importantly, I think, for that reason, Scotland need a win
18:21in the next couple of games. But, you know, you can't really, there's not much more difficult
18:28propositions than Croatia away than Portugal at home. But, you know, I think a win,
18:36one win in the next five or six days would be, yeah, just what the doctor ordered, I think.
18:43We are rubbing shoulders ultimately with the elite of European football now. That's what
18:49we're talking about. So today, Alan, rest of the day for you. Scotland and Croatia holding
18:54press later this afternoon. Croatia press conference about 5.15 my time and then Scotland
19:02after that. Hopefully Scotland arrive on time this time. I remember that was the big story last
19:06month was Scotland landing in, yeah, two hours away from Lisbon. And I don't think Steve Clarke
19:14was very happy. He turned up at the press conference that night two and a half hours
19:18late. It was about 9.20pm, I think, when they actually eventually got into the press conference.
19:22And yeah, you could tell just from Steve Clarke's face that he wasn't, he wasn't happy. But he did
19:28say he's going to have discussions with SFA officials after that. And I'm sure they will
19:32have their logistics and their travel logistics all worked out. I'm sure they'll be here in good
19:37time tonight. Yes, I would imagine. So they're not going to make the same mistake again. Well,
19:42Alan, I'm going to let you crack on for now and prepare for that and also write your preview.
19:48We'll have all the coverage of Croatia v Scotland on the website or on the app or indeed in the
19:55newspaper. You'll see and read all of Alan's thoughts, reaction analysis across the next
20:02couple of days online and in print. Thank you for joining me Alan from Zagreb. And thank you for
20:08watching to the viewers. We'll see you all again soon. Bye for now.