Rekha Gupta was sworn in as Delhi's new Chief Minister along with six ministers at Ramlila Maidan on Thursday.
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00:00Good evening, Rekha Gupta and six ministers took oath of office at the historic Ramlila
00:05Maidan today. The BJP's regained Delhi after a long gap of 27 years. The entire National
00:12Democratic Alliance leadership, the NDA leadership led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi were on
00:17stage at the Ramlila Maidan. The message very clear. The NDA now controls close to 70% of
00:25the country's landmass. But delivering on Modi's guarantee to make Delhi a world-class
00:31capital remains that big challenge. Can this team fulfil it? That's a top focus story on
00:37the news track.
00:38An invocation of Ma Yamuna. A vow to clean Delhi's lifeline.
00:47BJP government hits the ground running. Declares war on corruption. Warns Kejriwal on Shish
01:12Mahal. Delhi double-engined Sarkar. That is a top focus on the news track.
01:21So the optics and the symbolism from the Yamuna Aarti to the Chief Minister saying she will
01:27not live in the Shish Mahal that the BJP calls is the monument of corruption. But can they
01:33deliver on the substantive issues? We debate. I'm Gaurav Sawant. Let's get started with
01:39the headlines.
01:44The new BJP government in Delhi hits the ground running. Chief Minister Rekha Gupta chairs
01:48her first cabinet meeting with six ministers. Decision on portfolio distribution soon.
02:00US President Donald Trump hints at USA interference in India's elections. The BJP accuses Rahul
02:06Gandhi of being a tool for foreign agencies. Congress demands a white paper on USAID funding.
02:18Center issues an advisory to OTT platforms on obscenity and indecency. The Supreme Court
02:23had called for regulation of YouTube content on the back of the controversy over beer biceps
02:30swagger joke. Tamil Nadu chief minister hits out at the center over the new education policy
02:41again. Stalin says union government is using fund release to coerce states into submission.
02:53Hamas releases bodies of four Israeli hostages, including a nine month old boy and a four
02:59year old in coffins. The coffins displayed in Khan Yunus by Hamas as bodies are handed
03:06over to the Red Cross.
03:12The optics and the symbolism were all in place after Rekha Gupta and six ministers were sworn
03:17in at the historic Ramlila Maidan in Delhi. The chief minister and cabinet colleagues
03:22and Delhi BJP leadership went to the Vasudev Ghat for Yamuna Aarti in the capital. So the
03:28optics are right. The big task is cleaning River Yamuna. Easier said than done. She and
03:35her cabinet colleagues have also announced they will expose cases of alleged corruption
03:40of former Delhi chief minister and Aam Aadmi Party convener Arvind Kejriwal from the Sheesh
03:45Mahal to the liquor case. And it begins with the tabling of the CAG report. Our Delhi bureau
03:51brings you a top story.
04:11The new government takes charge in the capital. With Rekha Gupta at the helm as the chief
04:16minister, the BJP government is set to put policies of the earlier Arvind Kejriwal government
04:22under the scanner. After taking oath as chief minister, Rekha Gupta vowed to make the Aam
04:31Aadmi Party pay for alleged corruption under their government. Rekha Gupta also declared
04:55she won't move into the Delhi CM's official residence built during the AAP regime, which
05:01the BJP described as Kejriwal's Sheesh Mahal. Delhi ministers also vowed to probe the corruption
05:15charges leveled against Aam Aadmi Party and its supremo Arvind Kejriwal.
05:42With the BJP in power in the national capital, Kejriwal and other AAP leaders are set to
06:01face some serious heat. Bureau report, India Today.
06:31Ashok Malik, welcome. What do you make of the optics of the Yamuna Aarti soon after
06:54taking over as chief minister of Delhi, and the big challenge of cleaning the Yamuna ahead?
07:21Many years, unfortunately. It needs to be cleaned, a flowing riverfront, not just for
07:27religious purposes. The Aarti, of course, is welcome, but it's not just for that purpose.
07:32Even as to help with the pollution in the city, to help as a recreation location for people of
07:40the city is very, very important. Historically, Delhi has been a riverfront city. The river has
07:46disappeared. And certainly the focus of the Yamuna is long called for. Arvind Kejriwal spoke about it
07:52for 10 years. Nothing happened, quite honestly. The time is now because many of the problems of
07:58the city, not just recreation, but even pollution cannot be resolved till the Yamuna is cleaned.
08:04You know, you mentioned Arvind Kejriwal. Rekha Gupta made it very clear she will not shift
08:09into that Sheesh Mahal. From Kapil Mishra to Parvez Sahib Singh Verma, BJP ministers have
08:16spoken of exposing Arvind Kejriwal's alleged corruption from Liquorgate to Sheesh Mahal.
08:21Does the Aam Aadmi Party in general and Arvind Kejriwal in particular have reason to be concerned
08:28in the weeks and months ahead? Look, the Liquorgate issue is already under
08:34investigation. People have been sent to prison pending, of course, a culmination to the case.
08:42That's already happening. In terms of the Sheesh Mahal, quite honestly, it became a symbol of all
08:50that had gone wrong with the Aam Aadmi Party. And the complete alienation of the Aam Aadmi Party
08:56and Arvind Kejriwal from where they started 12 years ago, 10 years ago. Talking of the people,
09:02talking of being for the Aam Aadmi, literally, and naming their party such. The Sheesh Mahal,
09:09the pictures of the Sheesh Mahal have really hurt the Aam Aadmi Party and perceptions of it.
09:14So, I'm not surprised that the first thing Rekha Gupta has done on being sworn in as Chief Minister
09:19is that I'm not going to live there. I'm going to live in a normal house. Sheela Dixit lived in a
09:23normal government house. It was still a good house, but a normal government house. She didn't
09:28need to build a palace for herself. And the Sheesh Mahal, the so-called Sheesh Mahal,
09:33is now seen as one of the excesses of the past 10 years. And I'm not surprised the
09:38BJP Chief Minister has said, I don't want to live there.
09:40Will that have consequences for Arvind Kejriwal and not just in Delhi,
09:43but for the Aam Aadmi Party, even in Punjab?
09:48Obviously, Punjab is another state and the Aam Aadmi Party has a sizable majority there. So,
09:53I don't think it's an immediate threat. But somewhere in the past 10 years, what Delhi
10:00lacked, and I speak as a Delhi citizen now and a Delhi resident now, what Delhi lacked was a
10:05Chief Minister and a party that cared for this city, rather than used it as a base for national
10:11ambitions. A party has a right to have national ambitions, but they can't come at the cost of
10:15the city or the state you're running. And somewhere Aam Aadmi Party lost the plot and
10:20Delhi has suffered. Delhi is, in terms of civic infrastructure, is not what it was 12 years ago.
10:26It's regressed. If you needed to progress, it's regressed. Traffic is a mess. Water is very
10:32patchy. Water supply is very patchy. Pollution is troubling all of us. I mean, the number of
10:39schoolchildren who have asthma because of the air pollution is not funny. It really is a crime.
10:46And those issues need to be tackled. And this is a fresh start. New Chief Minister,
10:52someone who's grown up in Delhi and knows this city. And she has an experienced team with her.
10:57She has former MPs as ministers. And the time is now. Quite honestly, Delhi and India deserve better.
11:03If I were to take you to the Ramlila Maidan and that picture on the stage at the Ramlila Maidan,
11:09what's the message from the BJP and the NDA partners in control of states from Gujarat
11:15to Arunachal Pradesh, from Haryana to Andhra Pradesh? What's that big message?
11:20Politically, the big message is that last year, in June last year, the BJP slipped to 240 seats
11:25and that some people felt was the beginning of the decline of the BJP. In fact, the BJP has roared
11:35right back. It's won Maharashtra, before that it won Haryana. Now it's won Delhi, displacing
11:40Arvind Kejriwal, who was quite a thorny opponent. And well, there's Bihar at the end of this year.
11:48Let's see how that goes. But the BJP seems to be in a reasonable position. We don't know,
11:52of course, the BJP and the JDO seem to be in a reasonable position. We don't know how that will
11:55go. So in a sense, what the message, the political message, the BJP has sent that
12:01it's learned from its mistakes. Every party makes mistakes. The BJP makes mistakes too.
12:05But it has course corrected and at least as an electoral machine and as an electoral sort of
12:11engine, it remains extremely formidable. That one slip up in 2024, notwithstanding.
12:18And if that Modi magic, as some argued, was waning after Lok Sabha elections, as you mentioned,
12:25down to 20, 240 seats after Haryana first, then Maharashtra and Delhi. Is Prime Minister
12:33Narendra Modi, is his magic back? Is he firmly in the saddle?
12:40I don't think there's any question of that. I mean, frankly, he was in the saddle even with 240
12:44seats. But the point is, anyone who questioned the BJP's political capital and ability to get
12:52big things done in governance, whether at the federal or the central level or whether in the
12:58states, there were some questions that came up to June last year. Those questions have long gone.
13:03So the BJP governments, both in Delhi, in the states and in South Block and North Block,
13:12center as it were, have the space now to pretty much do what they want to push the agenda for
13:19governance, for economic development, for an upgrade of urban infrastructure, and so on, so on.
13:27Their political numbers or their electoral numbers are not stopping them.
13:31And if we were to talk about the opposition, immediately after elections, Congress with its
13:3699 seats and the opposition all together looked extremely strong. But how do they look now?
13:45Tired, fractured, unable to come together? And do you think they'll be able to come together
13:50for Bihar? Will Bihar be any different?
13:53Look, I don't know. Bihar is at the end of the year. The BJP-JDU are a formidable alliance.
13:59Yadav is also a formidable politician. But I would think the BJP-JDU alliance
14:04would be reasonably confident. Having said that, what the past six months have shown us is that
14:11the India alliance has really fractured. It was always going to be difficult to maintain it in
14:17the States. It has fractured. In Delhi, I would say, though the BJP won the majority and the
14:23AAPI party finished second, and the Congress did not win a single seat, though I think it
14:28finished second in five seats. The Congress wouldn't be unhappy. It's a rare election where
14:33the BJP is happy, the BJP voter or supporter is happy. But the Congress supporter is not unhappy,
14:40because if the AAPI party now slips further, then it opens up space in the city for the Congress.
14:50That's the question I was coming to.
14:53It's too early to say. It's too early to say. It depends on what the Congress does now. It
14:56depends on what the AAPI party does now. But from no hope, there's a sliver of hope for the Congress.
15:03So it now remains to be seen what the Congress leadership does,
15:07and whether the Congress leadership is able to withstand the pressure that's coming from
15:11other India alliance partners who are blaming Congress for the Delhi debacle,
15:16and not the AAPI party, because Congress leaders, you know, they're constantly saying,
15:20why should we let the AAPI party grow at our expense, we have to revive, we have to fight as
15:24a political party, wherever they've ceded ground, whether it's in Uttar Pradesh or Bihar, they
15:28haven't been able to revive themselves. If we just stick to Delhi, if we just stick to Delhi,
15:33I don't think the AAPI party lost because it didn't tie up with the Congress, the Congress
15:37didn't tie up with it. I think after 10 years or 12 years, there was a bit of a fatigue
15:42with Arvind Kejriwal. And this, in a sense, this was a vote against Arvind Kejriwal. It would have
15:48fine even if he had tied up with the Congress, maybe he would have won a few seats more,
15:53I'm not denying that, that's possible. But the BJP won this election because people were tired
16:00of Arvind Kejriwal. So it was a vote against him.
16:30Anmol Panwar, does Anmol Panwar, does the AAPI party have reason to worry? Day one, the BJP
16:37is putting the AAPI party on the back foot. Rekha Gupta not shifting into Sheesh Mahal
16:42that the BJP calls a monument of corruption, talking about pursuing corruption cases to
16:47recover every paisa looted as the BJP puts it in the past decade.
16:52Gaurav ji, now that the BJP has a double engine government in Delhi, they must
16:59focus on fulfilling the promises they have made to the people of Delhi.
17:02And as far as cases of corruption are concerned, we are not afraid of them at all, because
17:09not a single corruption case has ever been proven in the past, despite thousands of raids,
17:13countless cases, and even imprisonment in false and fabricated cases, they haven't found a single
17:20penny. Not a single penny has been recovered. We have seen what the observations of the
17:25Supreme Court were in the so-called liquor scam, that there's no direct evidence, there's no
17:33proceeds of money, no trace of proceeds of money. And even the investigative agencies
17:37which work on their behest, they were working as caged parrots. So they may file as many
17:42cases as they want, but nothing will come out of it. Hum bilkul paag saaf the, hain aur
17:49rahenge. And as far as this Yamuna cleaning is concerned, we have been seeing that the whole
17:57cabinet is there. See, in the past also... I'll come to Yamuna in just a moment, sir.
18:03I want to stay on Shishmahal for a moment. You know, are you saying it's all optics that went
18:09against the Aam Aadmi Party? Was it Vendetta? Politics of the BJP? Because Sanju Verma,
18:17several leaders are saying that the BJP has been elected on a positive mandate to make Delhi
18:22a world-class city. But is this political Vendetta, that from the chief minister to
18:27cabinet ministers, the focus remains on Arvind Kejriwal? Does he remain the big,
18:33big threat for the BJP even now? You know, Gaurav, with no offence to you,
18:39I take offence to the phrase, does Arvind Kejriwal remain a big, big threat to you? Come on,
18:45Arvind Kejriwal, his bluff has been called out. He has been decimated. And the more important part
18:54is that this is an election result, which is the outcome of two things. A, obviously,
19:01this has been a negative vote against Kejriwal's incompetence, Kejriwal's corruption, Kejriwal's
19:07obfuscation, Kejriwal's lack of transparency, Kejriwal's inability to be accountable.
19:14And secondly, this has been a vote not just against Kejriwal, this has been a positive vote
19:20for a double-engined government in Delhi under the aegis of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and,
19:25of course, now the newly minted Chief Minister Rekha Gupta. This is also a vote for the trust
19:31that Prime Minister Narendra Modi espouses. Don't forget, in the case of Kejriwal, there was a trust
19:37deficit, there was a governance deficit. As we all know, since 2016, almost nine years,
19:44CAG reports were not tabled on the floor of the Delhi Assembly. So for Aam Aadmi Party
19:50spokespersons to be sitting and waxing eloquent about how kattar imaandar Kejriwal is, to them,
19:57my only limited argument is, stop being the proverbial ostrich with your head buried deep
20:03in the sand. You have been routed and you still refuse to learn. You are still patting yourself
20:07on the back. I mean, it cannot get more embarrassing than that, that the erstwhile
20:12Chief Minister was resoundingly thrashed and lost to Parvez Sahib Singh Verma. And Aarti,
20:17she also won by a slender margin. So what are you going about? What are you exactly going about?
20:24Let me bring in Aarti Jherat. Can the BJP be faulted for saying the Chief Minister Rekha
20:29Gupta that I will not live in Sheesh Mahal? In fact, when we put that question to Parvez
20:33Verma, that if he were made the Chief Minister, would he live in Sheesh Mahal? And he said,
20:37no question, that's a monument of corruption and we will expose all cases of corruption.
20:42Now, that track and Modi ki guarantee, accountability that taxpayers' money
20:50is accounted for. Can the BJP be faulted for taking that track now, ma'am?
20:56No, I mean, obviously, if they, you know, since Sheesh Mahal was one of their
21:00major campaign plans against Arvind Kejriwal, you know, I mean, it would have been, you know,
21:07quite ridiculous if the BJP Chief Minister were to move into it. And, you know, given the fact
21:12that it's become so controversial, the CEG report has been suppressed. I would be very interested
21:19to know, I would want the CEG report to be tabled. And I would want to know how so much money was
21:25cleared for the construction and re-renovation, refurbishment of this bungalow. After all,
21:31you know, there must have been, usually there is an official process of, you know, audit and
21:37clearance and so on and so forth. How come, you know, were all those processes bypassed? So I
21:43think it is very important to make that CEG report public. And yes, of course, you know,
21:49a BJP Chief Minister should not move into something that they have made into, you know,
21:56that they have described as a monument to Aam Aadmi Party's corruption. But, you know, I just
22:02want to say one thing that, you know, I hope that apart from chasing these, you know, sort of
22:10controversies that clouded Arvind Kejriwal's second term in office, you know, the BJP must
22:16also strike a positive note. And I mean, I'm glad that, you know, they've concentrated on,
22:21they've started the cleanup of the Yamuna and, you know, all the other schemes that they have
22:26promised they must implement, because I think the focus should be positive rather than negative.
22:31Okay. So is Vendetta the focus? But, you know, is Shishmahal Anmol likely to be your Achilles'
22:38heel? You know, the CEG report that Sanju Verma talks about, if there was nothing to hide,
22:43why weren't these reports stable? Before I come to Raghav Awasthi, you want to quickly respond
22:46to what Sanju Verma and Aarti Jayrat said? Gaurav ji, making allegations is very easy.
22:53But the fact is that none of the allegation has been proved till date.
22:57You keep saying that corruption has taken place. At least prove it. Nothing has been proven.
23:02And likewise, all these allegations were made that there is so much corruption in the CEG report,
23:09and this is it. It has not even been tabled till date. Where did they get this from,
23:13before stealing the Shishmahal report? Because it is all theatrics. It was an attempt to malign
23:18the image of Aam Aadmi Party and its leaders. But when corruption was not proven in 10 years,
23:24it will not be proven in the next 10 years either. That's the reality.
23:27Okay, Sanju Verma, quickly before I bring in Raghav Awasthi.
23:31You know, Gaurav, I've done a zillion debates in the run-up to the Delhi Assembly elections
23:35with Anmol Pawar. And unfortunately, he's not learnt even a single lesson, but be that as it
23:40may. Let me just say one thing very categorically. About 18 months back, when the current CJI,
23:47Sanjeev Khanna, was just a judge in the Supreme Court, he said pertaining to the Delhi liquor
23:52scam, a tentative money trail of Rs 338 crore has been established. And the entire Jamaat of
23:59Aam Aadmi Party, Darbaris, Kejriwal to Aatish, to Sanjay Singh, said Sanjeev Khanna is a handmaiden
24:04of the BJP. So the problem with the Aam Aadmi Party is that they want to throw the baby out
24:09with the bathwater. They want to kill the message and the messenger. Please understand, Kejriwal
24:15is out on bail on procedural and technical grounds. Kejriwal has not been given a bail
24:20on grounds of neglect and Sanjeev Khanna has said as much. So stop lying on national TV.
24:25But Radha Ravasti, 10 seconds. Go on, go on, sir.
24:31It is on your show that senior anchor Rajdeep Sardesai clarified very categorically that it is
24:39not the money trail or any proceeds of money that has been recovered from Arvind Kejriwal
24:45Ji. That's what the order says. And it's 30-10-2023. Any one of your viewers can go in.
24:50But that's the point. On the legal aspect, I want to bring Raghav Ravasti into this conversation.
24:57There is no direct evidence. There's no money trail, no trace of proceeds of money. And that
25:02is why the Honorable Court said that the ED and CBI are acting in a biased manner.
25:07Raghav Ravasti, that's the point. As far as the people of Delhi are concerned. So there
25:13are allegations, there are counter allegations. Where is the verdict? And is this then the big
25:20question for the BJP to be able to move forward somewhere down the line or for the Aam Aadmi
25:25Party to move forward? There has to be resolution in a time-bound manner to these cases. Otherwise,
25:30they just keep lingering on for decades and decades and decades.
25:35As far as the cases are concerned, we need to understand one thing, which is that cases will
25:42be proved by the, proved or disproved by the trial court. A lot of times there are prima facie
25:47observations that are passed before the charge sheet is filed, before anything is done. And of
25:52course, those observations are relevant in order to decide whether or not bail should be granted.
25:57Having said that, it does not operate as an order of acquittal. My friend, Mr. Anwar said very
26:03clearly, he is basically tom-tomming some observations that were made by the Supreme
26:08Court out of context. The fact is that even the investigation in these cases has not been
26:14completed. Once the charge sheet is filed, once witnesses are examined and cross-examined,
26:18then, only then can we arrive at the truth. On the basis of some prima facie observations here
26:25and there, on the basis of which bail might have been granted, it does not mean that there is
26:29acquittal. Bail is the rule under our jurisprudence. Jail is the exception.
26:37But just because somebody is out on bail does not mean that that person has been acquitted.
27:07Gauravji, first of all, I'll quickly respond to what Rishabhji said. In the order dated 30-10-2023,
27:33the ED which said that the case will be completed within six months. And it is after two years when
27:39the Honorable Supreme Court said that you said it will be completed in two years. And we are at
27:44now around more than 2.2 and a half years have passed, but still the investigation is pending.
27:48So this is the truth of their case. If there would have been merit in the case,
27:53they would have definitely proved it. But this is the truth. As far as Yamuna is concerned,
27:58see, in the first podcast, Arvindji said, and I'll correct you Gauravji,
28:15we honestly admitted that we need some more time to clean Yamuna, although 70-80% of the work was
28:22done. But as far as Bharatiya Janata Party is concerned, earlier grand promises were made to
28:27clean River Ganga by 2019. But what happened? Was it fulfilled? No. Despite spending Rs 48,000 crores
28:36for cleaning River Ganga, Supreme Court last year imposed Rs 68 crore fine and the National Green
28:43Tribunal imposed Rs 58 crore penalty for polluting. And if they were so concerned
28:51about River Yamuna, go and look at Haryana and Uttar Pradesh. The Honorable Supreme Court has
28:57imposed a fine of Rs 48 crore on Agra Municipal Corporation for a disastrous, because the
29:04condition is so disastrous. So you're talking about Haryana, you're talking about Uttar Pradesh,
29:08you're not telling me about Delhi, which is your responsibility. Was that the reason why Aam Aadmi
29:12Party lost Delhi? Because being in power in Delhi, you're talking about everything except Delhi,
29:18that was Aam Aadmi Party's responsibility. But Sanju Verma, the road map to clean the Yamuna,
29:26just a Yamuna Aarti is great symbolism. What would be required is actual work on ground
29:33where Delhiites should be able to see a clean Yamuna. You know, Gaurav, I fail to understand
29:41why the Aam Aadmi Party spokesperson has not realized.
29:55I did not interject him. Anur Pawar, please calm down.
30:04Now, let me make one thing very clear to you. You know, Yamuna
30:11Aarti is not just a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:15It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:17It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:19It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:21It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:23It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:25It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:27It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:29It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:31It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:33It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:35It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:37It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:39It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:41It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:43It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:45It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:55It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:57It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
30:59It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:01It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:03It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:05It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:07It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:09It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:11It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:13It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:15It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
31:17It is a Yamuna Aarti. It is a Yamuna Aarti.
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33:40Guns, coffins and a chilling display.
33:43That's how Hamas handed over
33:45the dead bodies of four
33:47Israeli hostages.
33:49Among them, a 9-month-old baby
33:51and a 4-year-old toddler.
33:53Israel has said the four hostages
33:55were killed in Hamas custody.
33:57Hamas claims
33:59the four were killed along with
34:01their bodyguards in an Israeli
34:03airstrike on the Gaza Strip.
34:05We get you more in this report.
34:09A chilling and grotesque display.
34:11A chilling and grotesque display.
34:13A chilling and grotesque display.
34:15A chilling and grotesque display.
34:17Hamas terrorists stage a public
34:19ceremony near Khan Yunis, Gaza
34:21before returning the bodies
34:23of four Israeli hostages.
34:25Among them were Shiri Bibbas
34:27and her two young sons,
34:29Kafir and Ariel,
34:31whose fate had remained unknown
34:33since their abduction on October 7,
34:352023.
34:37Kafir Bibbas was just 9 months old
34:39at the time of his capture
34:41and was the youngest hostage taken
34:43by Hamas during the October 7
34:45attack. His older brother
34:47Ariel was only 4 years old.
34:49The fourth victim
34:51was 83-year-old Oded
34:53Lifshitz.
34:59The handover was not just a
35:01transfer of remains, but a gruesome
35:03display orchestrated for propaganda.
35:05The four bodies
35:07were presented in black coffins
35:09on a stage adorned with
35:11banners as thousands, including
35:13armed Hamas terrorists,
35:15gathered to witness the event.
35:17The large poster
35:19was hung up at the handover site
35:21depicting Netanyahu
35:23as the vampire standing over
35:25images of the four hostages.
35:27It read,
35:29the war criminal Netanyahu and his
35:31Nazi army killed them with missiles
35:33from Zionist warplanes.
35:39Red Cross staff walked to the stage
35:41where the four coffins were laid out,
35:43surrounded by masked Hamas militants
35:45and signed papers as part
35:47of the handover, before they were
35:49carried to their vehicles.
35:55Each of the caskets
35:57had a small picture of the hostages.
35:59You know, I've been
36:01wearing this for nearly
36:03500 days
36:05and honestly
36:07I think today is
36:09one of the saddest days of my
36:1140 years in Israel.
36:15Not only specifically for this
36:17poor family who did not
36:21not get the
36:23I mean, I don't even think we thought
36:25that the babies were alive for a long time,
36:27but I feel
36:29terrified
36:31that our
36:33government is not
36:35going to continue not making the right
36:37decisions to end the war.
36:39I feel sad for
36:41our society
36:43and I feel devastated
36:45for the families.
36:47Today is going to be a very sad day
36:49to the state of Israel
36:51because
36:53we had a lot of casualties.
36:55The Hamas raped, burned, killed,
36:57massacred a lot of
36:59women, men and children
37:01on October 7,
37:0323.
37:05But we knew about those hostages,
37:07the Bebas family. We saw them
37:09being taken alive
37:11and captured
37:13by the Hamas. And the lies
37:15that they're trying to
37:17spread around the world today,
37:19that supposedly they died because
37:21Israelis bombed in Gaza and they got killed.
37:23It's
37:25the biggest lie.
37:27They just massacred
37:29and murdered those people.
37:31There's no mercy with those people.
37:33The handover marks
37:35the first return of dead bodies
37:37during the current agreement.
37:41Israeli Prime Minister
37:43Benjamin Netanyahu's office
37:45confirmed the names of the four hostages
37:47whose bodies were returned.
37:49Bureau report,
37:51India Today.
37:59The images of Hamas
38:01returning four coffins,
38:03hostages in coffins
38:05has horrified Israel.
38:07The youngest victim,
38:09barely nine months old.
38:11The oldest returned today,
38:1383 years old.
38:15How is Israel responding to this?
38:17Will this have an impact on
38:19the ongoing ceasefire?
38:21Joining me now for more on this
38:23developing story is Reuven Azar,
38:25Israel's ambassador
38:27to India. Ambassador Azar,
38:29welcome to India today.
38:31Heartfelt condolences, ambassador.
38:33Have these four bodies
38:35been positively identified?
38:37Receiving a coffin of a nine
38:39month old baby or an 83
38:41year old man must be extremely
38:43painful, sir.
38:49Well, this is a very sad day in Israel.
38:51The entire nation of Israel has been watching
38:53the sadistic
38:55ceremony of Hamas
38:57in which they have transferred
38:59to the Red Cross four bodies.
39:01We haven't, we got the
39:03names, but we haven't identified
39:05yet the bodies. It's a process that
39:07is probably going to take about two days.
39:09We're going to extract, have to extract
39:11DNA from these little
39:13babies and their mother
39:15and another hostage.
39:17All in all four bodies
39:19in order to make
39:21sure that indeed these
39:23are the bodies of
39:25Shir Bebas,
39:27Kfir Ariel
39:29and Mr. Lifshitz.
39:31Ambassador
39:33Hamas is claiming that the four hostages
39:35along with the security
39:37guards were killed in
39:39an Israeli airstrike and
39:41they are not to be blamed for the
39:43deaths of these hostages.
39:47Well,
39:49you know, first of all
39:51the fact that they were
39:53taken from Israel
39:55is a war crime. They shouldn't have been
39:57taken. A mother, a young mother with the
39:59babies, we saw the videos.
40:01It was probably the most
40:03horrific scene that our
40:05nation is going to remember
40:07from the 7th of October along to many other
40:09pictures, but no doubt these
40:11pictures of the young mother
40:13holding in her arms the two babies
40:15is something we are going to remember
40:17for many years to come. So the fact
40:19that this bestial
40:21terrorist took her
40:23and didn't
40:25take her out of
40:27harm's way and used her as a
40:29human shield, this
40:31only manifests
40:33really how monstrous
40:35these terrorists are.
40:37So this
40:39accusation
40:41that it's the responsibility of Israel
40:43is completely ridiculous. They shouldn't
40:45have taken hostages,
40:47they shouldn't have taken
40:49civilians, they shouldn't have taken babies
40:51and mothers
40:53and this whole
40:55thing would have been avoided.
40:57They shouldn't have attacked Israel
40:59on the 7th of October.
41:03Okay, but does
41:05receiving these coffins, and I believe
41:07four more hostages are
41:09likely to be handed over in
41:11coffins in the next 48 hours,
41:13what impact, if at all,
41:15is this likely to have
41:17on the first phase
41:19of the ceasefire, which is likely to be in place
41:21till early March?
41:25Well, first of all, you know, these images
41:27are going to
41:29make us more resilient
41:31and more concentrated in the
41:33ultimate goal, to make sure
41:35that the 7th of October doesn't happen
41:37again in the future. And that means
41:39that we are going to take all the measures
41:41not just to bring back our hostages
41:43but to
41:45take out Hamas from governance
41:47in the Gaza Strip. Because
41:49if we surrender to the
41:51extortion of Hamas, and we allow
41:53it, allow Hamas to
41:55rearm and regroup,
41:57the clock
41:59will start counting down
42:01for another attack in the future.
42:03That's what they want to do.
42:05So we are now advancing with a very
42:07difficult task of achieving
42:09both two goals.
42:11To bring back all our hostages.
42:13We are, after
42:15these 14 hostages that are
42:17coming back under
42:19phase one of the deal, we are going to
42:21be left with 59.
42:23And we are going to bring
42:25each and every one of them home
42:27while not
42:29surrendering to terrorism.
42:31And if
42:33there's something that is convincing
42:35us to continue
42:37pursuing this goal, it's these pictures
42:39that we are seeing today.
42:41Okay. So you're saying, Ambassador,
42:43you're saying that about 59
42:45that will remain, 59 hostages
42:47that will remain in Hamas
42:49custody after the first
42:51phase of ceasefire is over.
42:53Do you have any information about
42:55the condition of those 60
42:57several of whom are believed
42:59to be Israeli servicemen
43:01who were taken
43:03prisoners when their ammunition
43:05ran out during that 7th October
43:07terrorist strike?
43:11Well, according to
43:13our information, about
43:15half of them are not alive.
43:19They are held under terrible
43:21conditions. We demand
43:23the immediate release of all of them.
43:25If Hamas thinks that
43:27building on that, they will be
43:29able to
43:31arm themselves again, to attack us
43:33again in the future. They are dead wrong.
43:35What they have to do is to surrender
43:37power in the Gaza Strip, to allow
43:39the Palestinian
43:41people that has suffered also
43:43from the tragic results of this war
43:45to be led
43:47by decent people, by a leadership
43:49that will be more pragmatic, more moderate,
43:51will engage with the international community.
43:53Nobody in the international
43:55community is going to come and rebuild
43:57the Gaza Strip while these
43:59terrorists are in control.
44:01So, during
44:03the second phase, what we are
44:05expecting to see is a negotiation
44:07that will bring
44:09diplomatically to the removal
44:11of Hamas from
44:13control in the Gaza Strip.
44:15If it doesn't happen
44:19diplomatically, it will
44:21happen militarily. We want
44:23to avoid that. We prefer to continue
44:25with diplomacy, to finish
44:27the war, to bring all the hostages
44:29and to remove Hamas diplomatically
44:31from control in the Gaza Strip.
44:33Okay, because what I want to understand
44:35from you, Hamas is reported to have
44:37said they will not return any more hostages
44:39after phase one unless
44:41Israel agrees to a permanent
44:43ceasefire and Israel withdraws
44:45from Gaza completely.
44:47You are saying that forward
44:49movement will only happen once Hamas
44:51is no longer in control of the
44:53Gaza Strip because nobody
44:55can rebuild Gaza with Hamas in charge.
44:57So, is the Hamas
44:59condition acceptable to Israel?
45:07Well, Israel doesn't have an interest
45:09of controlling the Gaza Strip.
45:11If we would have the interest of
45:13controlling the Gaza Strip, we could have
45:15stayed there when the IDF
45:17invaded the Gaza Strip. We have
45:19zero interest in controlling the Gaza Strip
45:21but we want to make sure
45:23that Hamas doesn't control
45:25the Gaza Strip either.
45:27So, if we can create a situation
45:29a permanent ceasefire
45:31in which Hamas will be removed from power
45:33in the Gaza Strip, then we can achieve
45:35it's a win-win, both
45:37for the population of Gaza,
45:39for Israel, for the hostages, for everybody.
45:41They have to decide
45:43whether, and you know,
45:45believe me, there is a lot of criticism
45:47against Hamas in the Gaza Strip
45:49because the people are
45:51suffering a great deal
45:53as a direct result of the
45:55unprovoked attack of Hamas on the
45:577th of October. They want to
45:59restore their lives and the only
46:01thing that is keeping them
46:03going back to their lives
46:05and rebuilding their lives is Hamas.
46:07So, when Hamas does
46:09these sadistic ceremonies
46:11in the Gaza Strip
46:13with the hostages, they don't
46:15gain popularity in Gaza.
46:17People are sick and tired
46:19of these shows of bravado
46:21and sickness.
46:23What they want to see is
46:25normalcy and therefore
46:27everybody
46:29except Hamas and the terrorist organizations
46:31have a common interest
46:33to remove the terrorists,
46:35to restore decent life
46:37for people on both sides
46:39of the border.
46:41Ambassador, what is Israel's
46:43take on US President Donald Trump's plan
46:45to move people out of Gaza
46:47to rebuild Gaza?
46:49Is that even possible? Is that feasible?
46:55Well, President Trump
46:57is coming with ideas outside the box
46:59and I think that
47:01what it really means is that
47:03we cannot go back to our
47:05archaic ideas
47:07of complacency with terrorism,
47:09of
47:11getting us
47:13to live
47:15with a constant threat.
47:17And he sees very clearly
47:19that it's going to be very difficult
47:21to have
47:23a reconstruction
47:25while people have to live
47:27in tents for a long period of time.
47:29So, the idea
47:31is that those Palestinians that want to
47:33temporarily or permanently
47:35live, and there are countries that want to
47:37accept them,
47:39they should be allowed to live.
47:41It's not something that will happen by force.
47:43At the end of the day,
47:45when you have,
47:47unfortunately, wars all over the world,
47:49people leave the war zones.
47:51Take, for example, Ukraine.
47:53Five million people left Ukraine
47:55because of the war.
47:57Take the civil war in Syria.
47:59Eight million people left Syria.
48:01So, why are the Palestinians in Gaza
48:03the only ones that are not allowed to live?
48:05Why do they have to be prisoners?
48:09They shouldn't be prisoners.
48:11It's a very simple idea.
48:13And it's a very natural idea.
48:15The question is, how naturally
48:17can we negotiate a situation
48:19in which countries
48:21that want to accept Palestinian refugees
48:23can accept them, and how
48:25we arrange, technically,
48:27for the exit of those
48:29who want to leave.
48:31Sir, your point is that
48:33Hamas is holding the people
48:35of Palestine hostage
48:37at the Gaza Strip.
48:39I guess they are to be moved out
48:41for redevelopment of that region.
48:43Is there a roadmap for it?
48:45Is there a time frame for the implementation
48:47of the Trump plan, which you believe
48:49is an out-of-the-box solution?
48:51Is that even doable?
48:53Because there are several countries
48:55that are opposed to such a plan.
48:59I think that this is being discussed
49:01behind the scenes.
49:03We have to, first of all, make sure,
49:05as I told you, that Hamas
49:07in the Gaza Strip, it's very clear
49:09that as long as these radical
49:11Islamic terrorists are there,
49:13nothing much can be achieved.
49:15And once that
49:17is achieved, then I think
49:19a lot of windows of opportunity
49:21are going to be opened
49:23for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
49:27Is there an apprehension, Ambassador,
49:29that this conflict could actually
49:31escalate and not remain
49:33confined to the non-state
49:35actors, and
49:37perhaps Hamas may not
49:39return more hostages after the
49:41end of phase one of the ceasefire?
49:45Yes, it could certainly escalate
49:47because Israel is not going to
49:49allow a situation in which
49:51Hamas remains in control of the Gaza Strip.
49:53It continues extorting
49:55both Israel, the Palestinian population,
49:57and the region
49:59as a whole.
50:01And could the Israel-Hamas conflict
50:03widen into a regional
50:05conflict if there is a breakdown
50:07of ceasefire, if people are
50:09compelled to leave the Gaza Strip?
50:13I don't think so. Look,
50:15Hamas tried to
50:17widen the conflict, and we saw
50:19how Nasrallah,
50:21who
50:23probably is going to be buried
50:25in some kind of sick
50:27funeral in Beirut
50:29in the coming days,
50:31tried to play with it in the regional scene.
50:33Israel has removed the regional
50:35threat. Israel has defeated
50:37Hezbollah.
50:39Israel has exposed
50:41Iran, has attacked Iran
50:43in retaliation for attacks coming
50:45directly from Iran. So I think that the
50:47appetite in the region to attack Israel again
50:49are not very high. There are still the Houthis
50:51in Yemen. They
50:53do not constitute a serious
50:55threat on Israel.
50:57So I don't think that there is much
50:59of a chance of regional escalation.
51:01Hamas understands very well
51:03that their army was
51:05defeated in the Gaza Strip.
51:07The only thing that they have is the pickups.
51:09They can still have some tunnels.
51:11They can try to challenge our forces.
51:13But at the end of the day, this is not
51:15going to be a major obstacle
51:17for the IDF.
51:19The IDF is ready.
51:21We have reinforced our forces
51:23in the south
51:25in Israel. We have recruited some
51:27additional units.
51:29And we are ready.
51:31And they understand that very well.
51:33So it's either they work
51:35with the mediators and the rest of the
51:37international community to remove
51:39themselves from the Gaza Strip. And if they don't,
51:41Israel will feel
51:43completely free to re-engage
51:45in military operations.
51:47And with President
51:49Donald Trump in the White House,
51:51is Israel more confident
51:53that it will be able to carry out its
51:55offensive against the Hamas?
51:57And how do you separate the people
51:59of Hamas from the
52:01Palestinian people who've been
52:03suffering this conflict
52:05between the Israeli defense
52:07forces and Hamas?
52:11I think that we are getting
52:13support
52:15from the White House. We have seen it
52:17in many ways, both
52:19in the release of
52:21ammunition,
52:23different kinds of ammunition that were
52:25withheld before
52:27President Trump came to power in the
52:29White House. We are seeing it in the
52:31statements, in the public statements
52:33of the President.
52:35And he has said time and again
52:37that he's going to give all the support for Israel
52:39to do what is best for
52:41its national security.
52:43Okay.
52:45Amazer Reuven Azhar for joining me here
52:47on India Today. Many thanks.
52:49We'll be tracking developments on the story
52:51Hoping for peace. Thank you, Gaurab.