Aadhaar, UPI, and ONDC are transformative digital initiatives shaping India's future. In this enlightening discussion, Pramod Varma shares his journey and insights on these groundbreaking projects that aim to enhance identity verification, financial inclusion, and economic accessibility for millions. Discover how these innovations address historical challenges in governance and empower citizens with a streamlined approach to services. Join us as we explore the impact of technology on social equity and development in India.
In this exclusive interview, Pramod Varma, the Chief Architect of Aadhaar, UPI, and ONDC, reveals how he quit everything to build India’s most transformative digital infrastructures. We dive deep into:
🔹 Aadhaar card scams & identity theft risks
🔹 UPI frauds and how to protect yourself
🔹 The truth about Aadhaar duplication – is your identity safe?
🔹 LPG cylinder scams – how they happen and how to avoid them
🔹 Jan Dhan Yojana and financial inclusion for all
🔹 PM Modi’s role in making UPI a global success
🔹 The role of women in India's digital transformation
🔹 Advice for young minds on building the future of India
📢 Don’t miss this insightful conversation that impacts every Indian!
🔔 Like, Share & Subscribe for more exclusive interviews on India's tech revolution.
#Aadhaar #TheOrginal #TheGlenlivet
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Video Highlights:
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Producer: Hrithik Rawat
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~PR.168~
In this exclusive interview, Pramod Varma, the Chief Architect of Aadhaar, UPI, and ONDC, reveals how he quit everything to build India’s most transformative digital infrastructures. We dive deep into:
🔹 Aadhaar card scams & identity theft risks
🔹 UPI frauds and how to protect yourself
🔹 The truth about Aadhaar duplication – is your identity safe?
🔹 LPG cylinder scams – how they happen and how to avoid them
🔹 Jan Dhan Yojana and financial inclusion for all
🔹 PM Modi’s role in making UPI a global success
🔹 The role of women in India's digital transformation
🔹 Advice for young minds on building the future of India
📢 Don’t miss this insightful conversation that impacts every Indian!
🔔 Like, Share & Subscribe for more exclusive interviews on India's tech revolution.
#Aadhaar #TheOrginal #TheGlenlivet
~PR.168~CA.168~ED.168~##~
Video Highlights:
For any feedback or questions, feel free to reach out to us on:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gizbot.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/gizbotcom
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gizbot.official
For the latest updates and everything tech,
Check out our website: http://www.gizbot.com/
Producer: Hrithik Rawat
Instagram: @hrithikrawat
~PR.168~
Category
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TechTranscript
00:00We are calling you to the police station.
00:02Is our system like this?
00:03I am there, God is there, and there is a priest in the middle.
00:06This priest is the most powerful person.
00:09I wrote three lines.
00:10Give ID to everyone.
00:11That's it.
00:13Hand it over.
00:14Private company where I quit.
00:15Volunteered.
00:16Just volunteer?
00:17Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18What was the thought of leaving a safe and settled job?
00:21What is the risk?
00:22What is the opportunity?
00:23Ask.
00:23There were only three lines.
00:24Give ID to everyone.
00:26Removing the middlemen.
00:27Prime Minister asked this question.
00:28If he can do it in LPG, if he can do it in scholarship and pension, why isn't he doing it in all?
00:34Who is getting the pension?
00:36No one has any idea.
00:37That means he was eating this money in the middle.
00:40Now take my bank from Aadhaar.
00:43If my Aadhaar is lost, it means all my money is gone.
00:45No, India's largest fraud.
00:48It's called social engineering fraud.
00:50He is not doing fraud by attacking the system.
00:52It is easy to convince you.
00:54So we are here with Mr. Pramod.
00:57And you all must know, if you don't know, he is the man behind UPI and Aadhaar card.
01:02So I wanted to understand that the idea of Aadhaar card, where did it come up from?
01:06That we need to have this in India.
01:08ID is a starting point for all societies.
01:14To access any, to go to the airport, to go by train, to do admission, job, it doesn't matter.
01:21To open a bank, to open a bank account.
01:24ID is really a starting point.
01:26First question is, who are you?
01:28To do anything.
01:30So one difference though, that in India, after independence, we never had a good civil registry.
01:37What is a civil registry?
01:38Birth registry, death registry.
01:40But Europeans and all traditionally maintained it well.
01:44Their paperwork is also very fine.
01:46They worked for 400 years and all.
01:48Because kings, they were growing at that time.
01:52They were colonizing us.
01:54So we didn't do anything here.
01:57Anyway, whatever history.
01:59But after independence, we didn't get a chance.
02:01So in 1992, we opened the economy.
02:06Market.
02:07New policy, brilliant job.
02:10But when the war happened with Pakistan, that is when we started thinking that we need some
02:20registration of citizenship.
02:24We should know who is there in India and who is not.
02:28So I think the concept of a register, identity register, was first discussed in the late 90s.
02:37But no action was taken.
02:39It was ignored.
02:40For so long.
02:42Because people, the leadership was thinking, we have to do it, we have to do it.
02:47But how to do it?
02:49Because it was very early.
02:51But in 2003, at the time of Vajpayee, there was a small attempt to do ID.
02:58It was designed, the ID card design was made, everything was designed, but execution was not done.
03:05Because they lost and then Congress came.
03:09But the thought was already there.
03:11But by then it was, you know, the decision was, we want it in India.
03:16Then in 2008, when the second term, the second term of our Congress, Dr. Manmohan Singh's second term came,
03:24by then, there was a lot of problem in India that there are two major problems, without ID.
03:32It was not a border control problem.
03:36Actually, that is fine, that is ours.
03:38There is border control in India, there is a problem in Bangladesh, but it was not a real problem.
03:47Economic inclusion, inclusion was a bigger problem.
03:51Because in 2009, only 17% banking was done.
04:04Only 17% banking.
04:06That means, there is no connection of the entire bank.
04:12In 2009, smartphones had already come, there was Apple, there was Android, there was internet, there was connectivity,
04:21we had a Nokia phone, and at that time, no one had a bank account.
04:26And Apple and Samsung, all of them, they were thinking at that time, how can we run our wallet digitally.
04:34But in India, we were struggling to open a bank account.
04:38The second problem was that India is still socialistic,
04:42that means, we are a large poor population, lower middle class population,
04:49we have a farmer population, we have to support it, the Indian economy.
04:54Pure capitalism is not the US style, it will happen.
04:58So India gives a lot of benefits.
05:02What benefits? Government benefits.
05:05At the time of our parents, cooking gas was subsidized.
05:12Pension, scholarship, work guarantee, MNREGA.
05:19There is a scheme for MNREGA, there is a scheme for work guarantee.
05:22And there is a farmer subsidy, there are scholarships for women,
05:27it supports pregnant women, both from the center and from the state.
05:33But look, no one has an identity, no one has a bank account.
05:39If you are the government, how will it give you so much money?
05:44In trust.
05:46So what was happening, we had 50 billion US dollars,
05:50a few hundred, two hundred lakh crore rupees in 2010.
05:57It was going from the center and from the state, but there is no reach.
06:02That means a lot of people were eating 50% or at least half of this money in the middle.
06:08How many of us?
06:10Because what do we know?
06:12Because on the ground, nothing is happening.
06:14Nothing is happening.
06:16So Rajiv Gandhi once said,
06:18if you send 100 rupees from the center, then a person gets only 10 rupees.
06:25In the middle, people take it away.
06:27But it has improved.
06:29But definitely 40-50 rupees,
06:31if you give 100 rupees, then 40-50 goes somewhere.
06:35So this is inefficient.
06:39Poor people have no documentation.
06:41No documentation is the beginning of everything.
06:45Beginning of inefficiency.
06:47So that means middlemen,
06:49middlemen have a happy situation.
06:53Middlemen have a happy situation.
06:55Because they can make some artificial fake documents.
06:59You know, they can write pension to someone.
07:03Sitting in the center, how do you know that person is with you?
07:07Is he there or not?
07:09It is very costly to verify.
07:11And this used to be so prevalent a while ago.
07:13Pension is coming, who is it going to?
07:15Nobody has any idea.
07:17Very non-existent log.
07:19I don't know if you know in Hindi.
07:21There is no log-in.
07:23He was also getting pension.
07:25He was also getting money.
07:27So basically, a lot of stealing.
07:29Now, this is the reason why
07:31in 2009,
07:33it became a little urgent
07:35for India
07:37that we will have to give ID
07:39to the person.
07:41Because Indian by then economic growth
07:43was happening in the country.
07:45That means, you know,
07:47from Pahad or West Bengal
07:50or you know,
07:52people are not in the village.
07:54They are in the city.
07:56They are also becoming working class.
07:58Working class, moving.
08:00They are coming to South India.
08:02They are coming to East India.
08:04So, when West India, East India to East India
08:06and North India to South India,
08:08there is a lot of migration.
08:10So, we need a nationally usable identity.
08:12You are somewhere.
08:14You have to prove it.
08:16I am Pramod. I am Pramod.
08:18So, Aadhaar was a very peculiar thing.
08:20Three reasons.
08:22Mobility reason.
08:24People want to go there for economic prosperity.
08:26So, they need an ID card.
08:28Second, bank account
08:30for financial inclusion.
08:32And the third thing,
08:34to give a subsidy.
08:36Three reasons. There was no border control for Aadhaar.
08:38This is a misconception.
08:40There was no reason for security.
08:42Only for economic development.
08:45Only for economic development.
08:47Aadhaar was an engineering marvel.
08:49But somehow,
08:51India pulled off.
08:53Give an ID to 1 billion people.
08:55130 crore people.
08:57You know, that note
08:59is an interesting story.
09:01I am all for stories.
09:03I love listening to stories.
09:05On January 2009,
09:07there was a parliamentary story.
09:09The parliament thought of giving an ID.
09:11So, they wrote only three lines.
09:13Give an ID to everyone.
09:15That's it. Hand it over.
09:17What does that mean?
09:19When Nandan Neelakani
09:21as a chairman,
09:23he was in Bangalore.
09:25So, Manmohan Singh called him
09:27and told him to leave Aadhaar for 5 years.
09:29Come to Delhi
09:31and help him.
09:33Nandan said, okay. We will try.
09:35He went to Delhi.
09:37He got the first note. Only 3-4 lines.
09:39Give an ID to everyone.
09:41There are no details.
09:43How to give it? What to do?
09:45But actually,
09:47if you are an entrepreneur,
09:49it is good because you have full freedom.
09:51This is the beginning of a new era.
09:53You can fully imagine.
09:55Because you have to do this
09:57and that.
09:59If someone else thinks and gives it,
10:01you are just doing it.
10:03You can't add anything to it.
10:05But in this,
10:07the ask was so small.
10:10Only 3 lines. Give an ID to everyone.
10:12So, our team
10:14I also joined.
10:16I quit my private company
10:18and volunteered.
10:20Just architect.
10:22All of us volunteered.
10:243-4 of us volunteered.
10:26What was the thought?
10:28Leaving a safe and settled job.
10:30You were passing that thing.
10:32I was 42 years old.
10:34Now I am 58.
10:36You don't look like.
10:38So, in 42,
10:40what can go wrong?
10:42This project,
10:44in 3 months or 6 months,
10:46nothing will happen.
10:48In a year, it will fail.
10:50We will come back and start again.
10:52What difference does it make?
10:54We are in computer science.
10:56It is growing in India.
10:58It doesn't matter.
11:00But, if this is successful,
11:02the entire future of India
11:04will change.
11:07So, risk.
11:09If someone offers,
11:11you will trade.
11:13What is the risk? What is the opportunity?
11:15In my mind,
11:17the opportunity was so big.
11:19The risk was so small.
11:21A year's salary is fine.
11:23We will dip in our savings.
11:25Worst case, we will come back after a year.
11:27But, amazing that
11:29this team,
11:31because of that,
11:33we didn't go for a job.
11:35Just for passion.
11:37But, it was such a big project.
11:391.3 billion people,
11:41130 crore people,
11:4322 languages,
11:456 lakh villages.
11:47How to do it?
11:49How to camp?
11:51We imagined everything.
11:53You know an interesting thing?
11:55One year,
11:57first one year,
11:59we were purely designing.
12:01Because, it is a government project.
12:03You need a committee,
12:05RTI, tax.
12:07You know, you have to complete the paper.
12:09So, we made a committee.
12:11One year of design.
12:13Second year, slowly
12:15trying.
12:17So, in one year,
12:19we gave
12:2110 lakh people Aadhar.
12:23Second year.
12:25Two years had already gone.
12:27But, only 10 lakh.
12:29So, the strategy was,
12:31what was it like?
12:33Mostly, states.
12:35No, no, no.
12:37We needed a sample.
12:39A rural environment,
12:41urban environment,
12:43and two states, at least.
12:45Because, we were de-risking.
12:47If we do it now,
12:49if we do it in Andhra Pradesh,
12:51what if something happens there?
12:53If the chief minister changes,
12:55if something happens in politics,
12:57so we didn't want to risk.
12:59It's dangerous.
13:01So, we had to bet
13:03two or three times.
13:05We didn't know where we were winning.
13:07So, we chose three states.
13:09Karnataka,
13:11Andhra Pradesh to start with,
13:13and then later,
13:15actually, we had Gujarat
13:17and UP and so on joining in.
13:19Okay. For the pilot.
13:21Which was the first one?
13:23Andhra.
13:25What was it like?
13:27Because,
13:29the system was ours.
13:31The process was ours,
13:33the software was ours,
13:35the system was ours.
13:37So, it's a question of
13:39which state government was ready
13:41to do it.
13:43In Andhra,
13:45in South India generally,
13:47there was more digitization.
13:49Now, everything is happening.
13:51At that time, in 2009,
13:53they were already digitizing
13:55some things.
13:57They were tapping on the potential already.
13:59They were already interested.
14:01We already digitized.
14:03We already had an ID.
14:05But, in some states,
14:07if there was no digitization,
14:09it came later.
14:11The state joined five years later.
14:13So, we gave them different time.
14:15We went to join.
14:17In these three states,
14:19in the second year,
14:212010 to 2011,
14:23there was a design in 2009-2010.
14:25We launched in pilot in 2010-2011.
14:27In the pilot launch,
14:2910 lakh people,
14:311 million people,
14:33got Aadhar.
14:35And by then, our machinery
14:37was fully fine-tuned.
14:39We were ready.
14:41And then, from September 2011,
14:43daily, every day,
14:4510 lakh people.
14:47Not in a year,
14:49in the first year, it was 10 lakh.
14:51Every day, 10 lakh, 10 lakh,
14:5310 lakh, 10 lakh people got Aadhar.
14:55And, in 2014,
14:5760 crore,
14:59630 crore people got Aadhar.
15:01So, when Modi came,
15:03it was such a big project.
15:05It got a lot of support in digital.
15:07So, it doubled down.
15:09Prime Minister Modi said,
15:11let's go fast. Launch Jan Dhan.
15:13Give bank accounts to everyone.
15:15700 million accounts,
15:1770 crore accounts.
15:19Did UPI happen in between?
15:21It's amazing. It's a good question.
15:23Brave people also get luck.
15:25You know,
15:27brave people have luck also.
15:29They create luck.
15:31They create opportunity and luck.
15:33So, 2011-12,
15:35Aadhar was smoothly going,
15:37smoothly scaling.
15:39Early days of
15:41direct benefits transfer.
15:43There were experiments in two states,
15:45Andhra and Kerala, for LPG cylinder.
15:47So, what happened?
15:49Traditionally,
15:51it's important, LPG cylinder,
15:53how was the government
15:55giving it to you,
15:57to your parents?
15:59The market price of the cylinder
16:01is 500 rupees, let's say,
16:03or 600 rupees.
16:05Market price, real price.
16:07But, the government, by subsidizing,
16:09by stocking,
16:11is giving it to you in 200 rupees.
16:13But, what happens?
16:15This same product,
16:17in the market,
16:19the price is double.
16:21So, what happens? It's called diversion.
16:23They add blue color,
16:25and sell it here.
16:27Because, why not give it to the consumer?
16:29The government gave it to us in 200 rupees,
16:31by reducing the price.
16:33If I sell it, I'll get 500 rupees.
16:35So, in the middle of the distributor,
16:37the man,
16:39was interested to sell it in black.
16:41But, what changed?
16:43From Aadhaar.
16:45Aadhaar said, in direct benefits transfer,
16:47the market price is 600 rupees.
16:49Distributor,
16:51will buy it at a proper
16:53margin of 500 rupees,
16:55in full price.
16:57Not in discounted price,
16:59in full price.
17:01After that, why do you want to sell it in black?
17:03You have to give it to the consumer
17:05in 600 rupees.
17:07But, if you are a poor man,
17:09you have to get a discount of 200 rupees,
17:11in full price.
17:13So, instead of,
17:15giving it to the distributor,
17:17without giving it to the distributor,
17:19they sell it in full price.
17:21If you are a consumer,
17:23directly removing the middleman.
17:25Removing the middleman from money flow.
17:27Because, it also takes,
17:29so much more time,
17:31if the middleman is there,
17:33that availability is not there.
17:35Accounting also.
17:37And, money is getting lost in transactions.
17:39It's not flowing only.
17:41In fact, 2014,
17:43when Prime Minister came, it doubled down
17:45on Jan Dhan, which is a bank account.
17:47And, on what's called direct benefits transfer.
17:49Prime Minister asked this question.
17:51If he can do it in LPG,
17:53if he can do it in scholarship
17:55and pension,
17:57why isn't he doing it in all?
17:59And, that's how,
18:01India,
18:031200,
18:051300,
18:07schemes in India.
18:09300 central schemes,
18:11300 central schemes,
18:13and 1000 state schemes.
18:15Right now,
18:17distributor doesn't give money.
18:19He directly gives it to the consumer.
18:21In the bank.
18:23For that, you need a bank account.
18:25So, Aadhar, allowed,
18:27bank account open.
18:29Having linked with the bank account.
18:31So that, India is the only country,
18:33in the world,
18:35in the world,
18:37where 90 crore,
18:39900 million people,
18:41US has 3 sizes.
18:43US is 330 crore.
18:4590 crore.
18:47A person can send money in a minute.
18:49Like that.
18:51If needed.
18:53So, it's amazing.
18:55No cheque, no paper.
18:57This is a great story.
18:59Yesterday, somebody was telling.
19:01In one of the countries,
19:03Covid in Japan.
19:05When the Covid came in Japan,
19:07Japan also,
19:092 lakh yen.
19:111 lakh rupees.
19:13Roughly, same money.
19:15They decided, will give to everyone.
19:17Because, there is lockdown,
19:19no work, to support.
19:21He didn't know,
19:23how to send.
19:25You know, how they created?
19:27In every district,
19:29in every village,
19:31in every village,
19:33in 6 months,
19:35they tried distributing cash to people.
19:37In 6 months.
19:39Here, in 1 minute, we sent to 90 people.
19:41First aid is important.
19:43So, India created,
19:45digital rails.
19:47Telecom rail, banking rail,
19:49financial rail.
19:51So, 2014.
19:53Sort of mind mapping also.
19:55How the mind is running.
19:57If you got the epicenter right,
19:59In 2014, you asked,
20:01how did UPI start?
20:032014 is a very important year.
20:05In 2014, and 2016 also.
20:07It was a very important year.
20:09In 2014,
20:113 more things,
20:13were designed parallelly.
20:15E-sign,
20:17means, no need of paper signature.
20:19How to use OTP?
20:21Paper cost is gone.
20:23Environment is also there.
20:25Cost will also be reduced.
20:27DigiLocker.
20:29DigiLocker was designed.
20:31It was designed by UPI.
20:33All 3, I was architect.
20:35They were running parallelly?
20:37No, I was designing.
20:39Were you designing them parallelly?
20:41Parallelly.
20:43Then it makes a lot of sense.
20:45Because I was already getting a good sense.
20:47This is an account, bank account.
20:49How to do digital signature?
20:51How to transfer money?
20:53So, we designed it together.
20:55In 2016, it was launched.
20:57All 3 in pilot mode.
20:59In 2016,
21:01all were live.
21:03In 2016, also had many things.
21:05Aadhaar went live.
21:07UPI went live.
21:09Aadhaar reached 1 billion people.
21:11It crossed 100 crores in 2016.
21:13UPI was launched in full pilot.
21:15Full launch.
21:17DigiLocker was launched fully.
21:19We had account aggregator.
21:21Data ownership.
21:23To on individual's data.
21:25Now it is live.
21:27Your banking data,
21:29investment data,
21:31insurance data, tax data,
21:33bill payment data, utility bill,
21:35electricity bill, etc.
21:37Where is your data now?
21:39Your physical bill is there.
21:41But your digital data
21:43is in that system.
21:45In banking system, insurance system.
21:47It is not encrypted now?
21:49It is safe.
21:51You don't have access.
21:53You are getting physical printout.
21:55The problem is,
21:57if you want a loan,
21:59can they tell you
22:01how much you are getting,
22:03salary,
22:05bill payment, tax,
22:07how will you prove it?
22:09By giving a paper.
22:11How will they know if the paper is fake or not?
22:13How do they know?
22:15They don't know.
22:17It is called verification cost.
22:19It is hard for a physical person
22:21to verify.
22:23It is like
22:25if you are working,
22:27you have to go to a company
22:29and verify whether you are working or not.
22:31It can be a fake pdf,
22:33salary slip.
22:35Google and Infosys can make you
22:37a salary slip.
22:39It is a pdf.
22:41In AI today,
22:43we can replicate humans only.
22:45You can make deep fake examples.
22:47If it is fake easy,
22:49the bank
22:51will not trust you
22:53to give a loan.
22:55That is the problem.
22:57Because no one will get a loan.
22:59That is a problem for us.
23:01What is the account aggregator doing?
23:03Your salary slip is here.
23:05Tax data is here.
23:07Bank data is in your bank.
23:09But using account aggregator,
23:11it is giving you
23:13all the data.
23:15DG Locker's fashion bank.
23:17That data
23:19is cryptographically
23:21verifiable.
23:23It cannot tamper you.
23:25If you change it,
23:27it becomes invalid instantly.
23:29It will become invalid.
23:31Change the name of DG Locker's document
23:33and it will become invalid.
23:35Go to the bank
23:37and show the view.
23:39It can instantly verify the bank.
23:41That salary is correct.
23:43You got the salary from that company.
23:45There is no need
23:47for background physical verification.
23:49When that happens,
23:51the cost
23:53of the bank
23:55will be very less.
23:57Everyone will get a loan.
23:59And crimes like identity theft
24:01will also be less.
24:03Because it can be digitally proved.
24:05That is why we have a habit.
24:07It is still a habit.
24:09It is a centuries old habit.
24:11Property paper, original paper,
24:13original paper.
24:15Our parents
24:17use the original paper.
24:19Actually, technology
24:21is there.
24:23We don't need the original concept.
24:25Aadhaar has it. It is a joke.
24:27I am an architect of Aadhaar.
24:29I did Aadhaar.
24:31Aadhaar's QR code
24:33is cryptographically verifiable.
24:35It cannot fake you.
24:37It cannot make a fake Aadhaar.
24:39It can show it manually.
24:41Because it doesn't know.
24:43It can't verify it.
24:45But if you verify it with a computer,
24:47it knows immediately that it is fake.
24:49So we ask
24:51why do we need a photocopy?
24:53It doesn't matter.
24:55We can verify it.
24:57But our habit is still paper.
24:59A funny thing happened.
25:01We went to renew our driver's license.
25:03You yourself?
25:05I wanted to go check it out.
25:07Because we are old.
25:09We have to renew it in 5 years.
25:11O.G. sting operation.
25:13It is RTA.
25:15Then he asked
25:17where is your Aadhaar card?
25:19I gave him my Aadhaar.
25:21I gave him a printout.
25:23He said, is this original?
25:25I am thinking
25:27Aadhaar doesn't have the original concept.
25:29You are original.
25:31This paper is not original.
25:33You are your identity.
25:35Aadhaar doesn't have the original concept.
25:37Aadhaar can print and keep 5 copies.
25:39All are original.
25:41Legally.
25:43Original doesn't mean anything.
25:45You don't have to worry
25:47about your Aadhaar loss.
25:49Because
25:51Aadhaar is you.
25:53You forget a lot of things.
25:55You get tensed.
25:57All 5 copies are original.
25:59Because
26:01original comes from the QR code.
26:03Copy doesn't matter.
26:05All are original.
26:07But anyway,
26:09I argued with the officer.
26:11When you go to government office,
26:13you don't argue.
26:15You won't get anything.
26:17I went and told him,
26:19Sir, this color is original.
26:21He said, yes, it is original.
26:23Anyway, it was a color copy.
26:25But it doesn't matter.
26:27UPI was interestingly a good design.
26:29Dizzy Locker was a good design.
26:31Everything was done in 2014.
26:33In 2015,
26:35pilot launch
26:37was a controlled launch.
26:39In 2016,
26:41it was a full launch.
26:43In 2016,
26:45there was no UPI transaction.
26:47Last month,
26:49every day,
26:51we do 60 crore
26:53payment transactions.
26:55Cash from the economy is gone.
26:57It's all digital now.
26:59Lot of advantages for both.
27:01Systemic advantages.
27:03Today, a small businessman
27:05is sending business
27:07to a small shop.
27:09QR code is there.
27:11Collection is happening.
27:13Bill payment is all digital.
27:15Cash payment is all digital.
27:17Now,
27:19through account aggregator,
27:21if the shopman has
27:23all the data available,
27:25in a verifiable manner,
27:27for the first time
27:29in the history of India,
27:31a shopkeeper
27:33can now claim
27:35how much business
27:37he is doing,
27:39what tax he is paying,
27:41and using that,
27:43they can get a loan.
27:45The first advantage in India is that
27:47we are unlocking access to loans.
27:49Otherwise,
27:51big companies get loans.
27:53You can get 10,000 crores
27:55in India.
27:57You can go to London.
27:59You won't get 10,000 rupees.
28:01Because
28:03our system is like this.
28:05It can make a big transaction.
28:07Why?
28:09Big transaction.
28:11We want small transactions,
28:13but everyone wants it.
28:15We need to democratize.
28:17That is what we are doing.
28:19UPI is the same.
28:21It can sell even 1 rupee.
28:23Volume is high,
28:25but value is low.
28:27It was the same
28:29in shampoo.
28:31Sashitization.
28:33We have to sashitize financial products.
28:35We have to sashitize
28:37every product so that
28:39everybody has access to it.
28:41Digital products are also in sashitized mode.
28:43Some people are in tension.
28:45Previously, we were talking about
28:47security.
28:49More concerns.
28:51Firstly, people need to get educated
28:53as to what the product is.
28:55What is UPI? What is Aadhaar?
28:57How to do it?
28:59My hard earned money
29:01will be gone.
29:03When moments like these happen
29:05that my Aadhaar card is lost.
29:07The original Aadhaar card.
29:09It is not Aadhaar.
29:11It can be downloaded.
29:13Now it is lost.
29:15What can go wrong?
29:17How to get it right?
29:19What measures can we take?
29:21We would like to know.
29:23Aadhaar is easy.
29:25You can
29:27take my ID
29:29and ask what you can do.
29:31You can
29:33take my ID
29:35and change my Aadhaar card
29:37and put your photo.
29:39Your Aadhaar will be done.
29:41It is a big problem.
29:43That is why I was saying
29:45that Aadhaar will be verified
29:47that it is not yours.
29:49It is someone else's.
29:51It will be verified.
29:53That is why Aadhaar is protected.
29:55But the paper usage
29:57is still there.
29:59They can take my Aadhaar card
30:01and put your photo
30:03and show it in the railway station.
30:05If a human is looking at it
30:07then it is not original.
30:09It looks like original.
30:11It is vulnerable.
30:13It is a paper.
30:15That is why I was saying
30:17that if it becomes more and more digital
30:19then the protection is increasing.
30:21It is not decreasing.
30:23The protection
30:25like airports
30:27where you are verifying
30:29It is tracking the biometry.
30:31You can't forge it.
30:33If someone was thinking
30:35that I can do this
30:37then you can't do it with Aadhaar.
30:39But money is a bigger problem.
30:41It is fungible.
30:43If my Aadhaar goes wrong
30:45then all my money is gone.
30:47If Aadhaar goes wrong
30:49then money will not be there.
30:51But in UPI for example
30:53Indians are
30:55still
30:57in the early days
30:59we are still digitizing.
31:01It is a revolution.
31:03We are experiencing digitization
31:05for the first time.
31:07Indians are very
31:09socially gullible.
31:11They believe everything.
31:13Innocent.
31:15If we go 10 km by train
31:17then they tell a bad story.
31:19In the sense, who are you married to?
31:21How many children do you have?
31:23Today we will say
31:25don't say anything bad.
31:27Because we don't know
31:29what they will use.
31:31They are good people.
31:33What if in a while
31:35they ask for your Aadhaar number?
31:37Phone number, Aadhaar number,
31:39bank account.
31:41Indians are socially vulnerable.
31:43Second,
31:45there are two
31:47human things.
31:49Inherent.
31:51One is fear.
31:53One is greed.
31:55Greed means
31:57we want to double the money.
31:59We want to do this.
32:01We want money fast.
32:03Greed means
32:05greed.
32:07More, more, more.
32:09At some level, we want
32:11but too much greed means
32:13the problem is
32:15we are
32:17bad people.
32:19You can play
32:21with fear and greed.
32:23That's why
32:25we are calling you to the police station.
32:27Your identity is lost.
32:29You will have to come.
32:31We want more money.
32:33Fear plays
32:35more greed.
32:37If you put Rs. 1000 now,
32:39it will be Rs. 5000 in 2 months.
32:41There is no free money.
32:43A lot of betting.
32:45Play that way.
32:47If people are not realizing,
32:49we have to protect
32:51our own accounts.
32:53If you want to play a little,
32:55in the stock market or gaming,
32:57or 10%
32:59if you have Rs. 1000 in the bank,
33:01play Rs. 50.
33:03It doesn't matter.
33:05Don't play for Rs. 900.
33:07You have your family.
33:09You have Rs. 100.
33:11A high risk game
33:13can't be played
33:15with your entire property.
33:17So I think you have to be aware.
33:19People are afraid
33:21if they lose their Aadhaar card.
33:23On the other hand, a lot of people
33:25are going on these betting apps
33:27and betting all their life.
33:29So I think
33:31what we are seeing
33:33is that India's largest fraud
33:35is called
33:37social engineering fraud.
33:39Social engineering.
33:41It doesn't attack the system
33:43and do fraud.
33:45It is easy to convince you.
33:47Why attack the bank?
33:49It will give me a pin and OTP.
33:51It is easy.
33:53It will convince you in 2-3 calls.
33:55So social engineering
33:57is the biggest worry.
33:59The biggest worry
34:01is how to tackle social engineering
34:03by playing with fear
34:05and greed.
34:07All kinds of fraud is happening
34:09which is very dangerous.
34:11I think everybody should be clear in their mind
34:13about what to do
34:15and what not to do.
34:17We need education
34:19in digitization.
34:21Without it, it will be dangerous.
34:23But technology has a way.
34:25Correct?
34:27Human beings cannot stop technology.
34:29Our roads are also technology.
34:31Our TV is also technology.
34:33Our houses are also technology.
34:35Construction is also technology.
34:37Everything is technology.
34:39Humans
34:41technology embrace.
34:43If we don't embrace it,
34:45we
34:47are like chimpanzees and monkeys.
34:49We are still
34:51hanging around in the tree.
34:53In the trees.
34:55I was saying this in the morning.
34:57What is the difference
34:59between our DNA and monkey's DNA?
35:01It is the same.
35:03What is our distinction?
35:05Human's distinction is
35:07our ability to think big.
35:09Think societal.
35:11Construct language.
35:13Language to communicate.
35:15Efficiency.
35:17Writing to write.
35:19All this is differentiating their 1%.
35:21Otherwise,
35:23we would be monkeys.
35:25So the real differences are different.
35:27So we will never.
35:29Technology
35:31is called inevitability.
35:33It keeps happening.
35:35We look up at the sky and say
35:37we want to fly.
35:39We want to go to the moon.
35:41That's how human beings will progress.
35:43But progress should be calibrated
35:45carefully so that
35:47everyone will get progress.
35:49Not big greed.
35:51If everyone doesn't get progress,
35:53there will be a fight.
35:55Progress is equitable.
35:57Everyone wants progress.
35:59Second thing, progress should be
36:01with good rules and slow pace.
36:03If progress happens
36:05in extreme pace,
36:07It is difficult for people to adapt.
36:09What is happening?
36:11We are completely happy.
36:13They will not do it.
36:15It is nothing interesting.
36:17We all must think about it.
36:19I would also like to ask
36:21You have done UPI
36:23in Aadhaar Card.
36:25What is something new?
36:27We are already doing
36:29what was launched last year
36:31called ONDC.
36:33What is the difference?
36:35You are a seller.
36:37You are selling something.
36:39You are an artisan.
36:41You are painting and weaving.
36:43How do you sell
36:45in the market?
36:47We sell in the market.
36:49We put it on Amazon
36:51and other platforms.
36:53The problem is
36:55your market access
36:57is controlled
36:59by one or two
37:01platforms.
37:03That means
37:05I am there. God is there.
37:07Pujari is also there.
37:09Pujari is the most powerful person.
37:11We are not God.
37:13Pujari is the most powerful person.
37:15Platforms have increased
37:17in the middle.
37:19It has become a toilet.
37:21Artisans and customers
37:23are getting it.
37:25Today people take 40%,
37:2740%, 50%,
37:2930% commission.
37:31Big video platforms also have
37:3330-70%.
37:35What is the dream of ONDC?
37:37We want
37:39more commerce
37:41trade or buying selling.
37:43We want to democratize
37:45commerce.
37:47That was our question
37:492-3 years ago.
37:51How to control
37:53platform power?
37:55India needs it.
37:57India needs a moment like UPI.
37:59Instead of money,
38:01flow is more powerful.
38:03Money is in power
38:05but now we need flow in power.
38:07And also flow between
38:09two parties where
38:11restaurant is making
38:13food and you need food.
38:15Why are you making so much money
38:17in the middle?
38:19You need food.
38:21But in the middle
38:23half price of menu
38:25is increasing.
38:27You are paying extra
38:29and restaurant is getting half.
38:31That is not good.
38:33We need to balance.
38:35That is why we are doing ONDC.
38:37ONDC will democratize commerce.
38:39It has food delivery.
38:41It can sell products.
38:43ONDC is not a platform like Amazon.
38:45ONDC is a network
38:47like internet.
38:49It has many platforms.
38:51But every other thing
38:53is connected with ONDC.
38:55Selling, buying, restaurant
38:57booking, hotel booking
38:59everything is in ONDC.
39:01We will talk about prices.
39:03It will be better pricing.
39:05You are a homestay
39:07How much percentage
39:09is there in Airbnb?
39:11In ONDC
39:13you can get
39:15same homestay
39:17in very less percentage.
39:19You can book us
39:21without big commission.
39:23It's going to have a commission
39:25but it's going to be so less
39:27that it wouldn't affect the buyer
39:29and the seller also.
39:31But at the end of the day
39:33the transactions will maximize.
39:35We don't want monopolies.
39:37We don't want monopolies or duopolies.
39:39We want big companies.
39:41If we have only one bank
39:43who will have power?
39:45Consumer or bank?
39:47Always the bank.
39:49But today
39:51if there are more providers
39:53if you are selling something
39:55if you can sell directly
39:57then you can keep all the money.
39:59You can set the margins.
40:01You get the power.
40:03Taxi drivers
40:05don't decide the pricing.
40:07Uber decides the pricing.
40:09But in ONDC
40:112 lakh drive
40:13every day. Taxi booking by the way.
40:15How competitive is it?
40:17Driver is keeping all the money.
40:19That is why drivers like it.
40:214 cities are live now.
40:23The country is not complete.
40:25It's early days.
40:275 years
40:29in 5 years
40:31like UPI
40:33ONDC will be everywhere.
40:35You can book taxi
40:37book hotels
40:39buy products
40:41buy food
40:43in a much better rate
40:45and also the commission
40:47will be less.
40:49It's not a big commission.
40:51It's going back to the good old days
40:53of barter in a way.
40:55But the problem of barter
40:57was inefficiency. It was local.
40:59It's a scaled version
41:01of barter.
41:05I would also like to know
41:07a lot of our viewers also posed question
41:09they wanted to understand
41:11they were comparing food prices
41:13because that's how it popped up
41:15ONDC. But they were also
41:17mentioning that
41:19the prices have become competitive.
41:21So is it because
41:23in a way it's good for the restaurant owners
41:25because they are getting similar pays out of both the platforms
41:27but for the end user
41:29is it going to be beneficial
41:31in a while or what is it?
41:33Because the prices are pretty similar.
41:35What will happen is basically
41:37more than consumer
41:39consumer
41:41see it's like saying
41:43the price of a product was 200 rupees
41:45actual price was 150
41:47but you thought
41:49200. Because of ONDC
41:51everybody became 150.
41:53So there's a price stabilization.
41:55Price will become stable.
41:57So that means
41:59It's like a security measure.
42:01You will see a good stable price
42:03not inflated price.
42:05In Uber
42:07if there's only Uber
42:09there's no ONDC, no one else
42:11you can inflate it and see
42:13what will happen.
42:15As usual we don't have power
42:17because the apps have gone.
42:19Is there any power of the driver?
42:21No. Is there any power of the consumer?
42:23You can't book a normal taxi in Delhi
42:25you won't find any taxi.
42:27So in ONDC
42:29they are saying
42:31inflated price in the platform
42:33inflated price will get stabilized
42:35back to original price.
42:37What's the real price?
42:39Biryani costs 150 rupees.
42:41That's fine.
42:43But we understand
42:45it's an inflated price.
42:47Now what will happen is that
42:49on the restaurant side
42:51although you are seeing
42:53consumer is seeing the same price
42:55restaurant was paying
42:5730-40% commission
42:5920% commission
43:01now the commission is almost gone to nil.
43:03It's in 2-3%.
43:05That means they are able to keep
43:07maximum money
43:09because it's a small hotel.
43:11It's a very difficult business.
43:13Food industry is the toughest business.
43:15So it's a shame
43:17if they have to unnecessarily
43:19steal the money from them.
43:21So I think it's a good thing.
43:23I think it's a good thing that
43:25restaurant can survive
43:27homestays can survive
43:29in hill stations and other places
43:31with proper pricing
43:33without inflationary pricing
43:35or monopoly.
43:37We don't want a platform monopoly.
43:39We don't want a foreign company
43:41colonizing our country.
43:43We don't want physical colonization.
43:45Why do we need digital colonization?
43:47Because the prices on both platforms are the same.
43:49Xyz platform vs ONDC
43:51be it food, be it cab
43:53but overall
43:55the person who is giving
43:57at least they will have the satisfaction
43:59that if I am paying
44:01maximum amount of money is going.
44:03There is no commission in between.
44:09The driver should get the money.
44:11But other than that
44:13there is no extra inflated commission.
44:15Otherwise if there is only one platform
44:17then the commission can be
44:19called surge pricing.
44:21I think that is what will happen.
44:23The price will collapse
44:25commissions will stabilize.
44:27When the stabilization happens
44:29everyone can trade
44:31with proper pricing.
44:33So it's not a price price war.
44:35It's not a price war.
44:37It's a stabilization war.
44:39Because if they don't stabilize
44:41monopolies will be formed.
44:43It's like East India Company.
44:45They will do whatever they want.
44:47They were doing what they wanted to.
44:49Which is why so many countries
44:51It's not India's problem.
44:53European countries
44:55many countries' drivers
44:57were striking against.
44:59Because the margin is increasing
45:01driver is getting screwed
45:03consumer is getting screwed.
45:05It's even problematic than having
45:07a job job because
45:09you are working for someone
45:11you are also giving them commission out of what you have worked for.
45:1318 hours you are driving
45:15and barely making money
45:17and it's not fair.
45:19So
45:21you can do something by using tech.
45:23That's why.
45:25We had two last questions.
45:27One of them being
45:29after this whole situation
45:31introduction of ONDC
45:33apps like these which are stabilizing the prices
45:35and demonopolizing
45:37demonopolizing
45:39owners should they be worried
45:41that what happened
45:43this was our business plan
45:45No. Any technological
45:47disruption. When
45:49smartphone came Nokia
45:51disappeared. When Nokia came
45:53Blackberry disappeared.
45:55So there is a time when
45:57incumbents
45:59will get
46:01disrupted by new companies.
46:03What will happen is that
46:05every entrepreneur, every business has that risk.
46:07Inherent risk.
46:09Because world will keep changing.
46:11Technology will bring newer
46:13possibility.
46:15So if you are
46:17not competitive,
46:19not innovative
46:21you can't hold on to your own position.
46:23Game will change.
46:25Like IPL and all this.
46:27New game is different. Sportsman. You have to play the new game.
46:29You can't play the old game to the new player.
46:31Because it's not a strategy.
46:33It's the whole ecosystem now.
46:35Now what we are doing
46:37is no different from that.
46:39What we are doing with UPI.
46:41When UPI came, did Paytm get hit a little bit?
46:43People were sceptic.
46:45May be their business plan
46:47got changed a little bit.
46:49But overall benefit, society
46:51got large benefit
46:53from UPI. One company got
46:55impact. Similarly
46:57when ONDC was done, maybe
46:59Swiggy or Zomato business plan
47:01changed forcefully.
47:03Uber or Rapido
47:05all these guys got
47:07auto rickshaw commission
47:09because Namayatri came in ONDC.
47:11So it is a good thing.
47:13It's a good thing that if it helps
47:15overall society
47:17one or two
47:19businesses, they need to survive.
47:21They need to fight it out.
47:23Figure it out.
47:25For the younger generation, one message
47:27that you would like to deliver to them.
47:29I actually tell only
47:31literally two things.
47:33If you are young,
47:35never let older people
47:37tell you something is not possible.
47:39Old people are really bad.
47:41We will tell you all kinds of things
47:43that this won't happen, that won't happen,
47:45this won't happen.
47:47Dream big.
47:49Audacious dream.
47:51And believe.
47:53One thing if you want to keep
47:55yourself is belief.
47:57Without self-belief, there is no life.
47:59So first point is
48:01believe in yourself and think big.
48:03Second,
48:05it is a little counter-intuitive.
48:07I always tell
48:09and by the way
48:11till 17
48:13years old
48:15I didn't speak
48:17a sentence of English.
48:19I could not speak English.
48:21I was purely speaking Malayalam.
48:23Studied entire Kerala.
48:25I could not understand any language.
48:27But
48:29that means
48:31what I learnt from it is that
48:33if you surround yourself
48:35with better people, if you are playing a game
48:37you want to play
48:39tennis with Djokovic or Federer.
48:41You don't want to play with your next door
48:43small kid and keep beating him.
48:45No use because you will never learn.
48:47So surround yourself with
48:49good, caring,
48:51smarter people.
48:53You will feel it is very counter-intuitive.
48:55Why?
48:57Because what we learnt in school
48:59all of us have been told
49:01in first bench
49:03you want to answer everything.
49:05You want to look smartest.
49:07Actually that is very bad.
49:09You don't want to look at the smartest.
49:11You want to be among
49:13even smarter people.
49:15You also want to put smart people in the middle
49:17because then your thinking
49:19will go bigger
49:21and your gains will get bigger
49:23and better. So surround yourself
49:25with people and just believe in yourself.
49:27Don't let other people
49:29drag you down.
49:31And the last message for the women of India.
49:33Women of India, I think
49:35we know
49:37for a fact that women
49:39hold the societal fabric.
49:41Men are pretty screwed up
49:43because fundamentally, biologically
49:45we are not wired to be
49:47as empathetic or as
49:49socially conscious
49:51as women are.
49:53So who is holding us together?
49:55The reason we exist in a stable
49:57system, stable social fabric
49:59only reason
50:01that fabric is stable
50:03is women.
50:05If we don't give the women the power
50:07to be who they are
50:09and do what they wish to be
50:11equal, equitable
50:13opportunity, we will have
50:15a very weak fabric.
50:17I mean fragile.
50:19Breaking fabric.
50:21If it is broken
50:23we are gone as a country.
50:25The only reason we must ensure
50:27we have a lot of women and they are doing
50:29excellently well so that you
50:31and I as men can sleep better.
50:33I am telling you.
50:35Believe in, invest
50:37in women. Thank you so much.
50:39I love my conversation. You are a great speaker.
50:43All the best to you. All the best to you also.
50:45Take care.