In his first televised interview since Donald Trump took office, the head of Germany's foreign intelligence service told DW that EU intelligence agencies are working together to support Ukraine. Bruno Kahl said he was optimistic that the United States would "soon be at our side again."
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00:00Three years after the Russian attack on Ukraine, Germany is in the midst of a hybrid war and
00:12the new US administration is bringing surprises on a daily basis.
00:17This month the US froze military aid to Ukraine and the sharing of intelligence.
00:22We'll talk now with Bruno Kahl, the president of the German foreign intelligence service
00:27BND about the latest developments.
00:31Welcome to Deutsche Welle, Mr. Kahl.
00:33How concerned are you at the moment about the US-Russian rapprochement?
00:42I'm particularly concerned about the overall situation in the world.
00:46And of course the conflict, the war that Russia is waging against Ukraine, is the central
00:51issue.
00:52But there's almost no conflict about which the new administration in Washington is not
00:56changing its assessment.
00:58And so concerns have increased rather than decreased.
01:05German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier recently said that he could never have imagined
01:09that Ukraine would one day have to be protected from the USA.
01:13How do you explain the change of heart in the White House?
01:20I still hope that we will succeed in protecting Ukraine, first and foremost from Russia.
01:26That is something that the West must achieve together.
01:28And European governments are currently making a great, great effort to do so.
01:34And we also very much hope that the Americans will soon be at our side again to help protect
01:39Ukraine from the aggression coming from the East.
01:46Following the halt to arms supplies, the US has now also stopped intelligence sharing
01:51with Ukraine.
01:52Can Europe fill the gap at all?
01:54What can Germany do?
01:58We're all trying hard and we're also consulting with other European intelligence agencies
02:03to see what we can do to keep Ukraine as informed as possible at all times and to equip it so
02:08that it can defend itself.
02:10And European intelligence services can also do a lot in that regard.
02:16But how blind is Ukraine now without the information from the US?
02:19What do you think?
02:20I wouldn't say blind.
02:23It is of course a jigsaw made up of many different pieces of information and factors that come
02:27together to keep Ukraine as informed as it needs to be if it is to defend itself properly.
02:33But together we will endeavour to ensure that Ukraine becomes neither blind nor deaf.
02:44Germany also receives very important information and tips from the US, especially to prevent
02:48attacks in its own country.
02:50That's an open secret.
02:51How dependent are we on this information?
02:59Intelligence services around the world are working very, very intensively together to
03:03fend off international threats, especially from Islamist terrorism.
03:07Every country is dependent on the help of other countries.
03:11No country can fight all the threats by itself.
03:14And that's why our friends on the other side of the Atlantic are very dependent on our
03:18information just as we are on theirs.
03:21And in this respect, we assume that the exchange will also be maintained in matters that can
03:26really save lives.
03:31So you're assuming that information flow from the US will continue.
03:36But Donald Trump recently also broke a taboo and tied security guarantees for Ukraine to
03:41commercial interests.
03:44Could the US one day also turn intelligence into political currency with Europe?
03:52We all check our phones every morning to see what happened overnight, so we're not immune
03:57to surprises, even the radical ones.
03:59But at the moment, we can confidently continue our intelligence work for the time being.
04:13Intelligence is also a currency in the intelligence world.
04:16We're talking now about the information that flows from the United States to Europe, to
04:20Germany.
04:21What about the information flowing in the opposite direction?
04:25Can you now assume with a clear conscience that you will continue to pass on information
04:29to the USA with a Russia link, for example, given that their intelligence coordination
04:36lies with Tulsi Gabbard, for example, who's known for a Russia-friendly stance?
04:45First of all, we have no reason to change our practice, which is based on trust that's
04:49grown over many years and on really well-established working relationships.
04:54And since we have an interest in maintaining these working relationships, we'll also do
04:58our part to ensure that there are no breakups.
05:01But we will continue to take this trust as a given.
05:09Mr. Kahl, your agency, the Federal Intelligence Service, fends off cyber attacks, hybrid attacks
05:15and disinformation on a daily basis.
05:18What stage of the hybrid war that we're all talking about are we actually at now?
05:25There's no chessboard-like measurement of this hybrid war.
05:29But as Germany, as Europe, as a territory of NATO member states, we're of course already
05:34the scene of Russian activities that go far beyond the usual level of espionage.
05:40We've seen hybrid influence operations, including during the elections that took place in Europe,
05:45right up to acts of sabotage on German territory, on the territory of other European states,
05:51which are carried out in a robust manner that is unprecedented in the recent past.
05:59And in this respect, we must be prepared for this type of threat to continue, regardless
06:04of how the war in Ukraine develops.
06:15You've warned about this several times in interviews and in the German parliament, that
06:20Vladimir Putin's real goal is not just Ukraine, but that he actually wants a new world order.
06:26For that, he could also put NATO Article 5 to the test.
06:30Can we still rely on Article 5 in your opinion?
06:35My job is to decipher what threats are coming from abroad.
06:39And indeed, I've pointed out that there are considerations in Russia to put the reliability
06:44of Article 5 to the test.
06:47And in fact, there have also recently been very specific voices in the Russian mainstream
06:51media, outside the intelligence services, who've said that Article 5 no longer holds.
06:57We very much hope that this is not true, and that we won't face the dilemma of it being
07:02tested.
07:03But we have to assume that Russia wants to test us, that it wants to put the unity of
07:08the West to the test.
07:09So, we're talking about 2030, 2029.
07:14Do you assume that's actually the time frame we're talking about?
07:21This time span is based on very sound data, but it is of course dependent on developments
07:25over time.
07:26So, if a military conflict in Ukraine comes to a standstill earlier, then of course all
07:32the means, both the technical and the material means, such as armaments and personnel, such
07:38as recruitment, will be able to pose a threat against Europe much earlier.
07:44And then it is also possible that a concrete threat, blackmail from the Russian side against
07:49the Europeans, for instance, may take place earlier than we had previously calculated.
08:00I don't want to give any dates now, but everything is connected to everything else.
08:05An early end to the war in Ukraine will enable the Russians to use their energy where they
08:10actually want it, namely against Europe.
08:14You're talking about an attempt of blackmail.
08:17What are you thinking of?
08:18What is the world order that Russia has in mind right now?
08:24That's the world order as it existed in Europe in the late 1990s, pushing back the protection
08:29of NATO and extending Russia's sphere of influence to the West, preferably without the Americans
08:34in Europe.
08:35So far it's just the Russians who've wanted that, and we really hope that the Americans
08:39don't now want it too.
08:42That would be the Cold War 2.0.
08:47I'm not a fan of buzzwords because they tend to obscure differences and suggest similarities
08:52where they don't exist at all.
08:56But it is definitely an exacerbation of the tensions that exist between East and West.
09:03While the distance to Washington is growing in many countries right now, Europe seems
09:08to be moving closer together.
09:09We see bilateral cooperation too now.
09:13The German Federal Intelligence Service, for example, has recently made the unusual announcement
09:18that it is entering into cooperation with the Polish Secret Service.
09:22Why?
09:23The unusual thing was perhaps that we announced it.
09:28But of course it's clear that we also cooperate closely with our closest neighbours in terms
09:33of security.
09:34We're all in the same boat, our neighbours to the East, in the Baltic states, in the
09:38former Warsaw Pact countries, as well as our friends in the West.
09:42In terms of security, we are in the same boat as far as the threat from the East is concerned.
09:48And then of course it goes without saying that we should work very closely together.
09:53It's unfortunate that such aggression from Moscow is needed to bring people in the West
09:57even closer together.
09:59The intelligence services very early on were very advanced in this cooperation, and they've
10:04also moved closer together in terms of mutual trust.
10:09The armies may still have to catch up, and in particular we have to be fast in building
10:16up the military forces that we need for effective deterrence.
10:21It's not as if there's been a shortage of warnings.
10:24We've been told time and again that we were doing too little compared to the Americans,
10:28and now we have to say, if you don't want to hear, you have to feel.
10:32Now we have to make a huge effort to catch up on this homework.
10:42Perhaps briefly on the security situation in Germany.
10:45We've been talking about the threat from Russia the whole time.
10:48How do you assess the danger, the threat from the Islamist scene?
10:53Unfortunately, the threat of international, predominantly Islamist, terrorism has not
10:59diminished.
11:00We have a summer of sport behind us, with European Championships taking place in Germany
11:05and the Olympics in Paris.
11:07These were two major events that also gave rise to great dangers, and where the international
11:12cooperation between intelligence services and police forces worked very, very well.
11:19And where we were able to jointly prevent attacks that were already in preparation.
11:35In other words, the ability of international terrorism to export terrorism by its main
11:40players, such as IS and Al-Qaeda, back to Europe.
11:45Unfortunately, this ability is back, and we have to defend ourselves against this danger,
11:50in addition to all the other threats we've talked about.
11:53And that's not possible without intelligence cooperation.
11:57We're glad that there have been no major attacks thanks to these joint efforts, but we've also
12:01seen cases in Germany that signal to us that the danger of international Islamist terrorism
12:06has by no means been averted.
12:09Given the current situation, do you also consider that there could be a connection or a link
12:14between Russia and this Islamist threat?
12:19At the moment, we see no evidence to suggest that.
12:22But of course, we are asking ourselves the question.
12:25We've also seen in the past that many small individual incidents later turned out to have
12:30a larger context.
12:31Take the NSU in Germany, for example.
12:34And that is, of course, a signal that we should make such considerations from the outset and
12:39investigate all leads that could possibly show these connections.
12:42However, we've not yet received any leads.
12:50Friedrich Merz, the likely next chancellor, has already signaled that he wants to grant
12:54more powers to the intelligence services in Germany.
12:57What are you actually demanding in concrete terms?
13:01Well, we still have some homework to do following the decisions of the Federal Constitutional
13:06Court and the legislation that followed.
13:08And there is still some homework to be done in terms of legislation that's urgently needed.
13:13For example, the transfer of data to the Bundeswehr.
13:21You may not believe it, but the legal basis for this is still missing.
13:25This is urgently needed.
13:27The closer we get to a situation where we have to defend ourselves and our alliance,
13:32the more we will need to be able to transfer lots of data quickly.
13:36We need a legislative basis for this.
13:38As far as cyber defense is concerned, we're also not yet equipped with every necessary
13:43bit of legal basis to cooperate internationally with other intelligence services.
13:47This is another major area that needs to be regulated by law.
13:51And there are still many small individual cases that we need to deal with.
13:56Individual cases that have actually been waiting to be solved for a very long time,
14:01which we now hope a new federal government will really tackle quickly and then bring about.
14:06The need for us to work more efficiently is increasing,
14:09and therefore the time pressure is also increasing.
14:12And I have good reason to hope that we can close these gaps in the legislation.