Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening and welcome to the latest virtual event from The Independent.
00:04I'm Annabel Grossman, Global Travel Editor, and tonight I'm joined by an expert panel
00:09including Justin Francis, Chair and Founder of Responsible Travel,
00:13and my colleague, Travel Editor at The Independent, Ben Parker.
00:18Tonight we're going to look at the issue of over-tourism
00:21and discuss if and when travelling can have a negative impact on the countries that we visit.
00:27We're going to explore how you navigate these issues and travel responsibly,
00:33while also enjoying an enriching holiday experience.
00:37As you know, all of our virtual events at The Independent are free to attend,
00:41but if you would like to donate to The Independent, you can do so using the link in our chat box.
00:47Donating allows us to keep our journalism truly independent
00:51and also enables us to host more interesting and insightful events
00:55for a global audience like the one tonight.
00:58Now a number of our readers have already sent in their questions ahead of time
01:02and I'm pleased to say that we've managed to incorporate a number of them into our discussion
01:06tonight. So let's get started!
01:09Welcome Justin, welcome Ben, thank you for joining us this evening.
01:14Now I think it's probably fair to say that the three of us recognise the positive impact of
01:19tourism. Not only is it enjoyable to visit new places, but there's also the economic
01:24impact on the countries that we visit, there's the value of cultural exchange
01:29and education of other communities. But increasingly we're hearing this term
01:33over-tourism. So I want to just start by asking, what is over-tourism
01:38and when does travelling have a negative impact on the countries that we visit?
01:42Well I mean I agree with you first of all, travel is a joyful, privileged thing and
01:47many many benefits, but over-tourism happens when the residents of a destination
01:53feel that their quality of life is being eroded through tourism, degraded if you like,
01:59and also the visitor experience is also being degraded. I mean nobody likes to travel and to
02:05have vast queues and disruption. So what we're seeing is local residents saying the quality
02:11of life is degraded and the visitor experience is degraded as well. So essentially nobody is winning
02:17and the negatives of tourism have started to outweigh the benefits of tourism.
02:22And Ben this is something that we report on a fair amount on travel at the Independent,
02:26do you have any examples of where we've seen over-tourism?
02:30Yeah I mean it's become, I think it was over-tourism was I think
02:35Oxford Dictionary's word of the year in 2018, but since then it's just become a massive issue and
02:40certainly examples in the last year, there was an example in Barcelona where there were
02:46some tourists having lunch and protesters were squirting them with water guns and holding up
02:50placards. There's examples in the Canary Islands at a beach in Tenerife with protesters sort of
02:56storming the beach as it were and holding up placards again around holiday makers and it's
03:02that sort of thing we're seeing quite a lot. I think it's an interesting one because there's
03:07clearly a fine line between mass tourism and over-tourism and places that are popular are
03:13going to be busy but it is, as Justin said, it's when it really starts to degrade both the
03:18experience for locals and the holiday experience because there is nothing worse than
03:23when you see these beautiful places and think I want to go there and take a nice photo but when
03:27you're actually there and you're queuing I don't know 20, 30 people just to stand there and take
03:33a photo of a sunset, it's just miserable and surely travel can be better than that.
03:38And what are some of the grievances expressed by locals?
03:41Well I think it's quite a long list and this you know really all it's been around for a very long
03:49time but it kicked off 2015-2016 when residents started taking to the streets and protesting
03:54and that's when the consciousness really started to grow but they said I can't afford to buy a
04:00house here, I can't afford to rent anymore. Why is that? Because Airbnb and other holiday rentals
04:05have taken places that would have been for me to buy a rent, taken them out of the market causing
04:10inflation, so they say I can't afford to live here. They might also say that it's so crowded
04:15I can't get my children to school, I can't get to work, antisocial behaviour at night with noise
04:22pollution, other just antisocial behaviour. In some cases they say the shops that I relied on
04:28to get my fresh bread or my fish or my meat have gone, they've been replaced with tourist shops.
04:34In Venice we heard from the market the traders saying we're really struggling now because the
04:40tourists are coming through in such numbers that the local people can't come and buy from us
04:45and we need that, not just a photo taken by the tourists, we need to sell things
04:49to keep this historic market growing. So quite a wide range of concerns. I asked somebody in Venice
04:57how they felt about it and they said I feel like I'm living in a theme park and I feel
05:03the wishes of tourists have overtaken the wishes of me, the taxpayer who lives here and has lived
05:09here for generations. And it's something, it's not just in sort of far-flung destinations, you see it
05:14in say Cornwall, obviously incredibly popular, and it's I think, I don't know if you mentioned it,
05:18sorry if I'm repeating what you said, but it's that issue of when thousands, hundreds of thousands
05:24of people flock down, it's the sort of strain on the resources that should be in place for locals,
05:30it's they suddenly fall apart. So it makes a massive difference and I've seen it, as you know
05:36I'm from the south west, and it can be very tough to find somewhere to rent when a holiday home is
05:43being let out because the landlords can make the same amount in a week or a couple of days during
05:48the height of summer than the amount they would make in a month renting out in a sort of residential
05:54way. But I think the places we've mentioned, Barcelona, Cornwall, Venice, these are all places
06:00that also really depend on tourism and tourism is very important too and one of our readers,
06:05Anton Boyd, has brought up an important question about this kind of balance between supporting
06:10local economies and damaging and overwhelming them. How do we know where that line is?
06:15Well I think the first thing to say is I don't know where that line is and it's not really for me
06:21sat here to have that view, it is for the local residents and local authorities.
06:28It's for them to determine where the line is crossed from acceptable to not acceptable.
06:35Cornwall's an interesting example, one of the poorest counties in the UK and the county that is most
06:41highly dependent on tourism and yet the tourism is very localised. So I think we also need to look
06:49at social media and Instagram and TikTok because the problem is that we all want to go to the same
06:56few places. We have places like Barcelona which has 13 million tourists which makes it in terms
07:03of the country league table the 10th biggest even on a country level. So many more of us can travel,
07:10that's a good thing, economies around the world are growing, that's a beneficial thing but we're
07:15homing in on the same honey spots and that is causing an issue. Cornwall could do with less
07:20tourists on the coast and more tourists within the inner part of the county.
07:26Well there are many, many beautiful places to visit.
07:29There are, we commissioned something a while ago about
07:32stopping the coast for walks inland and that sort of thing. I think it's the numbers,
07:37when you talk about the number of tourists in Barcelona, I forget the name of the town in
07:40Austria that I think it's only about 800 people but then during the peak season they get 10,000
07:45visitors a day, most of whom who just come in on a coach, get off, take the same photo and then go
07:51again. I mean that's, how is that sustainable? It's not just these big famous places, there's a
07:56little town called Bybury in the Cotswolds, it's a tiny village, I haven't covered that before.
08:01I mean it was described as one of the prettiest villages in England and it only takes two or
08:08three coaches parked in the wrong place for it to be chaos for local people. So when we think
08:15about this, we're not just talking about Venice and Dubrovnik and Barcelona, we're talking about
08:20any place where it starts to become too disruptive. And I think you sort of mentioned market traders
08:29and people coming in and jumping off the coach and then jumping back on again.
08:34There are ways that you can visit a place and be beneficial, so I think what I wanted to touch on
08:39was how to be a responsible tourist and I guess that's something that your company
08:43looks at a lot, how should we be responsible? Well a few suggestions,
08:50firstly try and stay in a hotel, preferably a locally owned hotel because you're not then
08:56taking accommodation out of provision for local people to rent or buy.
09:01Hiring a local guide is fantastic, they know when the busy times are where you might inadvertently
09:08cause events and how to get the best view at the quietest time to visit the place where
09:12no one else gets to see and they get a job too, so local guides are fantastic.
09:18It's often said that you should avoid busy season if you can travel out of season,
09:24can be a good tip, but then I've heard other people say other people from destinations say
09:28that's the time I finally get some respite, it's complicated, please don't come
09:33when I'm finally getting my break. And then of course there's other ideas which if you think
09:40about Disney or if you think about theme parks or if you think about some villages in central Europe
09:46that have been abandoned and then rebuilt especially for tourism, there are no residents
09:52and so the tourist gets an experience which can be away from local communities and not have a
09:58negative impact on local communities. So I think there's a variety of ways of doing it, there's a
10:02trade-off that the residents feel, the more benefits and the more money we can leave in hands, so think
10:10local, buy local, act local, travel with respect, read up on the places you're visiting, you tilt
10:16the experience more in the favour of local residents. Yeah and I think when you're on the
10:21ground I think the think local is exactly the way to go and you probably need to then work
10:26or destinations need to work with businesses and operators to funnel people that way because
10:33it's very easy if you book something online without thinking about it too much to find yourself
10:38there could be some kind of conglomerate that you just you know you're there you stay in their
10:42resort and that's it but actually resorts working with local communities to give you experiences
10:48out there responsibly I think that can go hand in hand. I don't think this is
10:55just for sort of intrepid travellers, this is for anyone who's just going on holiday, the little
11:00the things you mentioned then none of those were particular hardships. The two I wish I
11:04had added maybe is travel with some curiosity and a sense of humour. We as Westerners sometimes
11:12think we've got all the answers but asking the questions about you know where shall I go, where's
11:16nice, being polite, having a smile, learning a few words of the local language, this just goes a long
11:22way and that's where you end up in the best restaurants or the best bars and meeting the best
11:26people. I think it's interesting you say about being an intrepid explorer and yes if you really
11:31dig deep and you look for the right places and you're able to travel around easily but for
11:37someone who wants a two-week holiday in Mallorca which is one of the places where over tourism is
11:42potentially an issue, is there some sort of responsibility for travel operators and booking
11:49sites to make other places more available and to spread tourists out a little bit?
11:56We're concentrating today on over tourism but we should also touch on under tourism.
12:03Generally populations moving away from inland areas to the coast and to the cities that's what
12:07we're seeing around around the world and certainly in Europe. That means there are a lot of places
12:11which are losing their heritage, the young people can't find work, they're moving out
12:17and they would welcome and are ready for more tourists. So for every over tourism destination
12:24that we could list there are hundreds of thousands of fantastic places that would welcome more and I
12:29think the same is true in Mallorca and you'll find people who've restored an old building,
12:35they're renting out a local family and you're going to get a big smile and a warm welcome and
12:40some introductions to some places you probably never would have read about otherwise. It's
12:45interesting you say that and I've been keen on your thoughts because we as The Independent and
12:50our readers love the kind of destination swaps and I sometimes worry, you know you mentioned
12:55Dubrovnik, we talk about Mallorca, I'm thinking where would I go instead of those? Are we setting
13:02up the over tourism destinations of tomorrow? There's a danger that we just port the problem
13:08from one place to the next and there needs to be a fundamental rethink and
13:14the biggest reset is this, is that the tourism industry has never really asked local residents
13:20what they think or want from tourism and I think we're entering a new age, the next 10 years will
13:26be about the age or the era of consent, actually there's consent given by local people and residents
13:32for tourists and tourism of a certain type and until we do that and until tourism is
13:41managed properly, the destination dupes, we just risk spreading the problem and
13:47recreating it elsewhere. It's tough isn't it because we don't really want to see the scenes of people
13:53interrupting someone's holiday because they've probably gone there, not meaning to cause a
13:56problem with over tourism but at the same, I do think we are moving towards, there is much more
14:01conversation now, I think they say the Palaiaric government are having conversations that have never
14:05been had before and they do need to balance it against the economic benefits of course, we
14:09understand that and I think as we said at the start, no one thinks tourism by itself is a bad
14:16thing, it's how it's managed and how it's considered. One way of framing that thought is
14:22it's our holiday and we should enjoy it and get the most from it but we take our holidays in places
14:28that other people call home and it is home and with that mindset you're thinking I want to get
14:33the most from this, it's my well-deserved holiday, I'm just mindful that people live here and they
14:40need a fair deal out of this too. It's tough, I mean people go into holiday mode and
14:46again to bring it back to Dorset, I remember driving through Lyon Regis and in the height of
14:50summer when it's sunny, people walking out across the roads and it's like you've just forgotten that
14:56I'm about to run you over. Yeah, and I've got somewhere to dance. Yeah, it's funny. I think
15:03at Responsible Travel we say that we aim to support local communities and nature
15:09through our holidays which brings you closer to both, so the idea is that the holidays are
15:16more enjoyable because they do good if you like, so I think many people listening,
15:23watching will primarily want to have a great time. Yeah. I think what we're here to say is
15:30there's not a contradiction between acting in this way and actually having a better time,
15:37so you get a little bit more out of your holiday I think if you're mindful of these realities in
15:42the destination. And when people come to Responsible Travel what do you find they're looking for?
15:48Well, mostly that they want to get a little bit closer to nature and local people,
15:53they're traveling for the other, to get away from the norms and to challenge themselves,
16:00they're curious for fulfillment, for adventure, sometimes to test themselves, sometimes not,
16:05sometimes just to be with a loved one and spend some quality time together, a whole variety of
16:09reasons, but this idea of connection and even having a little sense of belonging just for a
16:15short period of time because you're contributing your belonging, I think it's at the heart of it,
16:19whether it's cycling or walking or whatever it is, I think that's the root of it. And how do you
16:26connect people to local communities and to nature, practically how does that work? Well,
16:32you might have a property which is locally owned and run, they might have a local community project
16:37that they support and they invite the guests to visit, they might support a local farmer who's
16:43an organic farmer to get the fresh local produce from, if you want to go and see it you can,
16:48maybe they just know everybody in the village or the town, maybe you're on safari in Kenya
16:53and the safari is run in partnership with the Maasai, the indigenous people who own the land
16:58and they give you permission to go with them, what an extraordinary thing to go with an
17:01indigenous person on their land and see the wildlife their custodians of,
17:06so in all those ways you are contributing and benefiting and getting closer.
17:12And so we're talking very much here about individual responsibility and how we pick
17:16our holidays and how we choose to travel which I think is really important, but what are governments
17:24doing and what can they do to help manage this problem because if it is a big issue it's going
17:28to take more than people making individual decisions. Yes, I think that's right and I think
17:35we should each feel we can do our bit but I don't think we should equally feel totally accountable
17:39for, and neither should we feel we shouldn't go, I want to make that point as well necessarily,
17:46governments are doing a number of things trying to regulate Airbnb and other holiday rental
17:51companies although effective regulation is proving hard because it's quite easy to circumvent that.
17:57Yes, I mean that's probably in terms of trends what we're seeing from
18:02Florence to New York I think I've tried to count it on Airbnb, we're just you know all over the
18:06world, even in Southeast Asia that is a big focus. I feel, I mean this is a sort of side point,
18:14but I loved it when Airbnb first launched I was you know younger and I love the idea of
18:23having a spare room, the spare room, that was what I thought. Well that was what it was meant to be
18:27wasn't it? I know there are other companies so it's not just Airbnb but it has stories now of
18:34blocks of flats, I think there's something in folks who are being built at the moment and
18:39such a percentage of the building will be used as Airbnbs and that just seems,
18:43there must be people desperate for housing, affordable local housing. Yeah, I read about
18:48an elderly resident whose partner fell over and they were in an apartment building and realised
18:54that there was nobody there, there was nobody else living there apart from them, it was all Airbnb.
19:00So I think it's quite high on the list to try and get to grips with Airbnb.
19:05Even if you are going to stay in Airbnb, there's some ways of thinking about it,
19:10whole home Airbnbs I think have taken the entire property, it's gotten away from the ethos of that
19:16single spare room. If you can find a place which has got a single spare room, I think that's a
19:21better choice. If you look at the owner and realise they've got 50 properties that might
19:26be slightly different than thinking this is their only property, so I think there's ways to choose
19:31Airbnb a bit more wisely. I mean, last time I stayed in an Airbnb in the States I was doing
19:37a road trip and drove up from Miami all the way to Ohio but we stayed, a friend and I,
19:43we stayed in a spare room in Tallahassee and it was great, the host was just,
19:48they were this young couple and they gave us really good insights on where to go and where
19:51to eat and we've been driving all day and that's all we need is just someone to say
19:54go down there, they'll sort you out and that's responsible travel isn't it? That is responsible
19:59travel and that was the founding idea, the sharing economy was making best use of all those resources
20:04and I think it was fantastic, so look carefully, I think you can still get back to that. Yeah,
20:10but you are right, it's not, I was thinking what you said about not sort of feeling too guilty
20:18about the holidays because last time I had some visitors over from Australia and we were in London,
20:25miserable Sunday morning, no locals were out and about at all, why would you, it was horrible,
20:31obviously they wanted to go to all the tourist attractions and I thought, but there were still
20:34lots of people and I thought they are propping up these businesses today. Yeah, absolutely.
20:40So yeah, I'm probably out and enjoying London, which is a great city, but we're
20:44miserable at home. It's a fine, you're right, I was thinking when you said like where do we draw
20:47the line, where does anyone draw the line, it's a really tough balance. It's a tough balance,
20:52you mentioned a long list of benefits of travel and tourism, there's one perhaps to add which is
20:59that it can at its best really help sustain natural and cultural heritage, but it creates a value on
21:06these cultural events which can be shared between local people and tourists and then natural heritage
21:11are precious wildlife sites which most governments find very hard to fund around the world,
21:17tourism can come in and can support. To the climate change argument,
21:22the planet absorbs 50% of man-made carbon emissions every year, so to address climate
21:29change we need to reduce our carbon emissions, which is another conversation, but we also need
21:34the types of tourism which gives us jobs and livelihoods and park fees to sustain our heritage,
21:40so there's a great many benefits of tourism. And going back to what governments are doing
21:46or individual councils are doing to control or keep a lid on over tourism, and beyond
21:54hotels and airbnbs and regulation there, we've seen in Venice that there's been caps on groups
22:00or a visitor fee or a ban on loudspeakers, are these effective, do these sort of measures work?
22:08Well Venice is an interesting example, so they introduced their tourist tax last year,
22:15their visitor's fee, and they've extended it again and it's risen in price. There was a lot
22:22of criticism that we reported on at the end of last year that it hadn't worked, that they
22:27made, they brought in lots of revenue but it didn't actually, a critic said it didn't really
22:32stem the number of tourists going in, because that is one of the criticisms levied at tourist
22:37taxes, that it's just making money, it's just allowing wealthier people to travel, which is
22:44fine if you're making money to then put back in into a well-managed system, but that's not always
22:50the case, so I don't like the idea of a tourism tax just to make money, it needs to be part of a
22:57well-thought-out and managed tourism product. Justin, what are your thoughts on tourist taxes?
23:02I'm for destinations thinking carefully about tourism taxes, as you say, a couple of purposes,
23:12maybe there's some types of tourists that are more beneficial to you or less beneficial,
23:16Venice is after the daily visitors, so you could use it as a tactic if you're making,
23:22seeing less benefit from some, to actually bring some money back for the cost of hosting them,
23:28and then it makes so much more sense if the money is rigged, fenced and used wisely, to prove that
23:33place to live in and to visit, and so they can be effective. We've been very slow here in the UK,
23:39they're hugely widespread across the world. They are, I think because I think a lot of people think,
23:43you know, Bhutan's had one for over 50 years, which is a very high tax as well, I think it's
23:50now 100 dollars a day for the next couple of years, but they've really focused on that high
23:56quality, I think it's now called high quality low impact tourism, and there's a whole debate around
24:01is that, you know, elitist? I was going to say, it makes me feel slightly uncomfortable that there's
24:07a type of tourist and if you're not the right person for us we don't want you. But they're,
24:12you know, they obviously care very much, what's it called, the sustainable development fund,
24:16they care very much about the impact of tourism. Yeah, you know, their thinking is we've got
24:21very fragile culture and no infrastructure in a mountain environment, we just, our choice is we
24:27can't take very many tourists, so if we're not going to take very many just because, you know,
24:31it doesn't permit it, the culture and the landscape, then we will make the maximum we can
24:37from it. I agree with you, travel should be and can be and must be for all to an extent.
24:45Some destinations have parts of a country which are well suited to very large numbers of tourists
24:49and others which are not, and so with the right management you can try and accommodate people in
24:55the right way. But I do object to this idea that we have a right as tourists to go any way we want.
25:03I think we kind of do, the right to travel, but it doesn't overrun the right of local people
25:09and residents to have a decent life. I think you've got to, you know, put them up against
25:13each other. I think that's also the issue, and we sometimes report on badly behaving tourists,
25:18that you, even if you did have a right to be a tourist, you certainly don't have a right to be
25:22disrespectful, and you know, people posing, disrespecting holy, sacred sites of Bali,
25:30or destroying sculptures in Italy, or something like that, that's just no, and you can see why
25:37that would annoy locals. But this is, for the most part, these are limited. Yes, yes, but then it
25:45feeds into the, you know, people queuing outside their sex in the city house in New York, and this
25:51person just bought this one in their house, or, you know, there's houses in Notting Hill, isn't there,
25:56that are... Limited sympathy for a brownstone in the West Village. Fair enough, fair enough.
26:03But no, I mean, I do, I think tourism taxes are, generally, there are so many across the world,
26:08and we highlight them when they're being potentially brought into, I don't know,
26:11Bournemouth, Christchurch, Poole, or Wales, or in Scotland, or something, but actually, they're,
26:17I think, if you're going to Bali, what is it, to enter Bali, it's about 150,000 rupiah, which is
26:23about seven pounds, or something. I was going to say, they're not that high, are they? No,
26:28across Europe, it's something between, you know, four, six, seven pounds, something of that order
26:33of magnitude, so relatively small in the outlay of your total holiday, and can make a big difference.
26:41And you could think of yourself as a temporary resident, because you're going to use water
26:44facilities there, waste facilities. I hope you don't need to visit the hospital, but these are
26:49all funded out of local taxes. But it's there for you, if you need it. Do you see, I mean, so Venice
26:54is probably a high-profile example, do you see people rethinking it, because of the tax, or does
27:00the tax make them rethink it, rather than the financial outlay, to make them go, well, maybe I
27:04should go somewhere else if they're... It's very interesting, because people always complain about
27:07taxes. I mean, that's a universal rule, but it's interesting if you look at who does complain
27:15about the tourist tax. It's often those with a vested interest in the tourism industry.
27:21It might not be the local residents, who actually think it's a good idea to have more money into
27:26public services, and this is why only really governments can take care of managing tourism,
27:32because they democratically elected to balance the needs of those residents, and those different
27:36opinions. And one of the really nice, it's an academic idea, but I really like it, and it's
27:42called the limits of acceptable change. What the theory is, is you ask the local community, what
27:48change is good, how much change would you like, and what would you see that becomes unacceptable,
27:53and unacceptable change, and you define that together, and then it gives the residents and
27:58the government a way of working tourism. When you see something that you've defined as unacceptable,
28:02you try and manage it. So there's some well-established theories of how to go about this.
28:07But surely for what some people is unacceptable, for other people is completely beneficial.
28:13Yes. I think, I mean, I'm not, the way I travel, I'm not a fan of crowds, and I don't like crowds
28:18where I live in in London, but I think for many people who have cafes, or record shops, or
28:27businesses in the area, I mean, they want people to come in.
28:30Yeah, and that's why the government has to step up, and has to work with the community at large.
28:37And this has never happened. You know, tourism has been largely unregulated around the world.
28:42There's this sense that everybody's always won, everyone's got a smile, everyone's happy, it's
28:46holiday time, everyone wins. But let's get rid of some of the biggest industries on earth,
28:51and generally the biggest industries on earth that need to be managed and regulated, not everybody
28:55wins. And the last five years, seven years, destinations are waking up. Okay, benefits,
29:02and costs, real costs, and I now need to manage this and make it work as best we can.
29:09And so you said over the last five, seven years, we're waking up to over-tourism and
29:14understanding the damage, but over-tourism isn't a new concept by any means, is it?
29:18No, I was looking back, William Wordsworth was writing about the Lake District, I think in the
29:231870s, and was anxious about some of the footpaths. In Brighton, where I'm responsible for
29:30travels based, there was a riot in 1840s when the local fishermen were thrown off the beach so the
29:36wealthy tourists could come and walk without getting tangled up in the nets. The issue has
29:41grown and grown, and I think for several reasons. Firstly, the world's got richer, there are more
29:45people that can travel, that's a good thing. Aviation has remained, I think, artificially
29:51cheap because aviation fuel is not taxed. I think social media has concentrated us on fewer and
29:57fewer places, and I think it's caught destinations that are unawares, and they've not managed the
30:02industry. So there's a variety of reasons why, although it's been around for a long time, it's
30:07suddenly exploded in the last few years. Yeah, well I was just, I mean, I used to always think
30:13that how busy Santorini gets where there are other Greek islands that look almost identical,
30:18and we've done lots on other Thai islands you should visit that are just amazing. I think that's
30:25a key thing for our readers is to find the other spot, and actually generally just as a travel trend
30:30that it's the dupes. I spend a lot of time thinking of places to suggest to people. We do, and I think,
30:37and the reason is, I mean, we spend a lot of time thinking about what our audience wants and what
30:40they respond to, and they do respond to this with alternatives, dupes, lesser known, without the
30:46crowds. These are words that do so well in our articles, so it shows that there's an appetite for
30:51this. And I think, you know, let's talk about Venice. Should we go to Venice? Should we not go?
30:56I mean, there is no dupe of Venice. If Venice is Venice, it's just... And Venice is magic.
31:01It's magic. So maybe you go there for a couple of days, and then maybe you go somewhere else for
31:06the rest of your trip. And then when you come to Venice, you stay in Venice, you eat in Venice,
31:10you go to a hotel in Venice. I find Venice a particularly interesting one because I
31:15always said, I'm not going to go to Venice. I don't like crowds. It's not the right place for
31:19me. And I went last Christmas, the Christmas before last, when it was freezing, raining,
31:26and it was wonderful. No tourists and absolutely beautiful. Are there any destinations that
31:32you would avoid, or that you specifically go to?
31:38I think it's more about the how you travel, as you've discovered with your Venice example,
31:42than it is where you travel. So I think you can go anywhere and be more responsible.
31:48Yeah. So nowhere should be entirely off limits. But I'd love the work you do into finding the
31:54places which are a little bit undiscovered, a little bit on the up, a little bit more interesting,
31:59a little bit more authentic, difficult word to understand. But for me, authenticity is when the
32:04soul of a place is more visible. And I think that's the exciting part of travel,
32:11is figuring it all out with your help. Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is quite,
32:19they're not mad swaps. A lot of people talk to me, if you've been to that Port Marion in Wales,
32:24it's like Italy and Wales. It is in a lot of ways, but also it's definitely not.
32:29But swapping Tuscany, say, for Umbria, you can still have the same truffle-laden pastas and
32:35full-bodied wines and that sort of thing. But that's such a, really as a tourist,
32:39if you just want to go to Italy, you wouldn't really notice the difference.
32:44And I think of like, I really like Dubrovnik, and why shouldn't you go there and have a great time?
32:48But there are also just, it's about bringing awareness to places that people might not
32:53have considered. There's a great place, I think it's called Salta, which is about an hour
32:58out of Split. And again, there, you'll have a brilliant time. There's so many. So we could
33:04talk about that. Just emerging places. Albania, we report on quite a lot. Georgia.
33:09Yeah. There's so many places and it's very easy to go to the same places, and places are classic
33:19for a reason. But little switches can make a big difference. I think it's, take a little bit of a
33:28step into the unknown. A small step into the unknown. That famous poem about, I took the road
33:33less travelled, and I was very glad I did. It made all the difference, I think is the quote. And so,
33:40you know, your friends and family and others might be telling you about, on Instagram,
33:44might be telling you about the same old places. But I think there's rewards from just taking a
33:48little bit of a step. So it's unfamiliar places, and there's familiar places seen in unfamiliar
33:54ways. And that's why I think a local guide can show you a familiar place in unfamiliar ways.
34:00And for a few pounds a day, I really think it's worth it. And so we're talking about local guides.
34:05How do you go about finding a local guide? Is this the case if you book in advance? Would you
34:11ask at your hotel when you arrive somewhere? And how do you know that someone is an authentic local
34:17guide? I guess for me, the best is always somebody who maybe grew up in a place, and who lives there,
34:23because I put most confidence in that they will know better than anybody else. So why not ask?
34:28You know, where are you from? I think, good to plan in advance and book in advance and find the
34:33right one. But very easy questions to ask your guide. What will you show me? Why? How can I
34:40avoid over tourism? Where did you grow up? Where are you from? I think you'll help find the right
34:45guide that way. Yeah, definitely. I know how I travel. I'm definitely not a planner in that way,
34:53so I would go, if I was at a bar, I would ask for help in that sort of way. Is there someone you
34:58recommend? But, you know, I was in Rabat a while ago in Morocco, and the guy there was great,
35:05because he was a local. He'd grown up there, but he'd also spent lots of time out of the country,
35:08so he really, he brought, he knew what I as a visitor wanted, but also had the insider knowledge
35:15and took me to sort of re-adopt. Yeah, it was, he opened up so many different places, a little,
35:19like this woman bakes bread in the morning, and like this, this was in no guidebooks, and
35:24yeah, I, big fan of local guys. Yeah, there's that, there's that tricky area between,
35:29we're very suspicious here. If I see somebody who smiles at me on the way home, I think they're
35:32going to kill me. Yeah, yeah, I was thinking, why are you doing that? And they're probably not.
35:38And so there is a thing about safety, and, and, and as a man, probably I don't understand that as
35:44well as a, as a woman would understand that, but there is also not putting up all the barriers,
35:50all of the time, because there are people who just like having visitors, who genuinely do want to
35:56show you around, who want to show you the place. And are proud of their home. And they're proud of
35:59their home too. And if you are traveling, say with your family, if you're a solo traveler,
36:04and you're not confident just chatting to local people, there are, I mean, increasingly, I guess,
36:09travel companies are able to connect you with local guides, or can a lot of, it feels like
36:15nowadays, a lot of travel companies work with local companies. And so you can book these sort
36:21of things ahead of time. Yes, you won't find it hard either to find a guide for a day trip,
36:26just look online. Responsible Travel, we have local guides as well. I don't think you'll find
36:30that hard to do. And I think we can't really talk about over tourism without talking about cruising.
36:37I feel like the cruise industry probably has something to answer for when it comes to over
36:42tourism. And we feel like a lot of places that are concerned about over tourism,
36:48cruising's right up there as one of the issues. Can you speak a little bit about that?
36:53Yeah, I'll try and keep you an independent view on it. Because
36:59lots of people love the cruise holiday. And it's perfect for them.
37:04From a destination's perspective, the way you really make money from a tourist is they stay
37:09overnight, or they have food, or they eat, or drink. And of course, with a cruise passenger,
37:17then sometimes, often, mostly they're sleeping on board, and they're eating on board as well.
37:24So if you look at the statistics, the cruise passenger spends a lot less in the destination
37:29than an average passenger. And I guess the cruise companies actively encourage
37:34the cruisers to spend time on the ship, or to spend their money on the ship.
37:39That's what they pay for, yeah. The other issue is you've got very large numbers of tourists
37:45arriving all at once, and often in big groups. So the difficulty for destinations and residences,
37:53lots of disruption, potentially, with less benefit, economic benefit.
38:01And that's why they look really hard at the cruise industry.
38:06Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I've, in the course of work, been on cruises to write about them.
38:12And actually, recently, I was in the Caribbean on a cruise ship for a piece. And I mean, I love
38:19independent kind of solo exploring. So when I docked, I would go off and just walk into town,
38:24or do whatever, you know, grab a drink at a bar, or lunch. But, you know, most people
38:31go on their tour, or, you know, they'll have breakfast, they'll go on their tour, and they'll
38:37come back, and they really, they may not have even set foot off the bus during that tour.
38:43It's a hard one. I don't know what, because recently, was it Nice?
38:47Nice, yeah.
38:48Yeah, it was bad, and then they've gone back. So, I mean, there must be an economic case for someone
38:52in this.
38:53But I think there was a real conflict there, wasn't it? Because there was the
38:58mayor saying, we don't want these, you know, we don't want this type of traveller. But then you
39:02had local restaurants saying, well, actually, they aren't quite useful to us, and it's going
39:06to hurt us if you get rid of these tourists.
39:08If you're a sort of home port as well, and you're flying in, that's great, because you might spend
39:12a day in there. But it is these, you're right, it's these very small islands that only have
39:16seven coaches lined up. Everyone's getting off, going around for the day, and then going back on.
39:20Again, I mean, there's better ways to manage it. So, some places now are limiting the number
39:25of cruise ships that can come in a day. Still saying that some are welcome, but there is a
39:30limit, because it's a finite destination. Others are limiting the size of the cruise ship, or being
39:37more specific about the size, or which day they come. So, designing schedules which are better
39:43around there. But there's also the environmental impacts of cruise ships. And it's not just the
39:49carbon emissions, but the fine particles, the sulphur oxide and the nitrogen oxide, which can be
39:57really damaging to human health. From cruise ships in ports is quite damaging. One staggering
40:03statistic is, I think there's 218 cruise lines in Europe, they emit the nitrogen, the sulphur
40:10dioxide is the equivalent of a billion cars. To give you a sense of the scale of it. I've never seen that sort of thing before. It's very scary when you see it like that.
40:17I mean, you know, I understand steps are being taken, making sure they're plugged into
40:24one short power, rather than... But it's clearly a long way to go, and I would hope that the
40:30cruise industry is... It's a very long way to go. They're still using, they're slowly adapting, but still using
40:36the very heavy fuel oil, which is very toxic for all these greenhouse and fine particle emissions.
40:45The record of pollution and fines, the pollution, is not what they would want it to be. And I think,
40:52so the cruise industry has got a long way to go. And this, we kind of, we talk about cruising as a
40:58whole, but there are more responsible ways to cruise, or more responsible ways to travel on
41:03the water and see more places. For example, would you say, if someone wanted to cruise all day and
41:07they wanted to see more than one destination, a river cruise, or a small cruise, is that better?
41:15Yes, we sell a lot of more small ship, more expedition-like cruising, where you've got
41:21naturalists and guys on board, small numbers of people who are contributing to the research in
41:27some ways, causing less of an impact when they visit a destination. But, you know, there are many
41:34ways to enjoy being out on the water. Sailing, river cruises, which I think are less, have less of an impact.
41:42Sailing is pretty eco-friendly. Yes. And it's a wonderful way to see places, isn't it?
41:48If you can get yourself on, I don't know, a yacht with sails, then why not? I think the thing
41:55about a cruise ship is, and the cruise industry, is they're perfectly pitched it to make life as
42:03stress-free and easy. And that's a good thing, and people really welcome that.
42:10But I think with a bit more planning, you can still have a holiday, which, because you will get
42:16your travel company, if you really want, they will come, some travel companies will pick you up from
42:20home, they will make life easy for you, they will understand if you have issues around accessibility,
42:27and if you search for those companies in the right way, I think you can still have an experience
42:32which is not difficult for you, and is rewarding for you, without it always needing to be a cruise.
42:37I don't think it always needs to be a cruise. Because I guess we do kind of see that people
42:42define themselves as cruisers or not cruisers. Yeah, I mean, people like cruising, people love
42:47cruising, some people absolutely love it, which is fine, and I do get the appeal for some people.
42:55But yeah, I mean, I think the thing for me, more so than the pollution, because you can really see
43:01it, is I, you know, if I travel I love the food and the drink, and that's what I want when I go to a
43:06destination. So it would be great if cruise lines could work more closely with their destinations,
43:11and that's the thing. But I also understand that it's a military operation trying to run
43:14the on-board catering, so I don't know, if you get to a destination suddenly they don't
43:19have certain things, that will help to break loose. We don't, we're blacklisted, we don't sell it.
43:23We don't sell big cruise. There's a few things we don't sell. Orphanage volunteering, elephant back
43:28holidays, cruise ships, large cruise ships. So I haven't yet found a way of doing it that
43:35satisfies me, but that's my personal choice. And then thinking of responsible travel,
43:42so you founded the company, was it 20? 25, 25 years ago. And what, what was the ethos behind
43:50it? Why did you think it was important to have something like responsible travel out there?
43:54Well, I was working for an esthetic at the body shop at the time, and there was this great
43:59philosophy, if you could do good and you could make money, and that seemed attractive, and maybe
44:04you really could do both. And I'm a great traveller, and I wanted to start a travel
44:10company with that ethos. And I also wanted to create a new category in the industry,
44:17which is the kind of young man's world ambition. But if there was a choice that you could have
44:21organic food or ordinary food, why should there not be a choice that you could have
44:24a holiday or you could have a more responsible holiday? Called it responsible travel,
44:30which people said was a very stupid name, but it was a consciously activist name, because by calling
44:36your company responsible travel, you kind of suggest that not everything else is responsible.
44:42So that was, that was the idea. We've got 6000 trips, lots of partners all over the world around
44:47them, and we screen them very tightly. And you've listed a few of the types of holidays that you
44:52don't do. Which types of holidays do you see are quite popular among people who are being
44:57responsible, or would like to be responsible? Many are varied, because this, because it's such a
45:02wide territory, this idea of giving back and a sense of belonging and getting something back
45:07from it. So Greece and Croatia do exceptionally well, Albania we mentioned. I mean our customers
45:14are a little bit like readers in the sense of something a little bit more real and a little
45:19less crowded, might be of interest to them. East Africa is selling very well at the moment as well.
45:25And it doesn't take much to find somewhere new and different but authentic that isn't out of
45:29your comfort zone. It's just about to say it's very interesting when you talk about Greece and
45:34Croatia, because that's where most people, well a lot of people would be very comfortable traveling,
45:39so it's it's not too difficult right? I was speaking to a colleague this morning who lives
45:44in the New Forest, and he said most people who come to New Forest never make it more than 100
45:49meters from the car park. And he's a resident there. We kind of all know that a little bit,
45:54about tourism as well, that you see people who have never quite gone beyond the square.
45:59And most of the real life in a city is in the suburbs, because that's where people live, and
46:04the actual heart of the cities is commerce and other things. So it really doesn't take very
46:10much effort I think to kind of discover things, really quite beautiful and eye-opening.
46:15Can I just ask you, I realise there will have been lots of changes in 25 years, but is there sort of
46:20one standout trend that you've seen that, let's say 25 years ago, wasn't even on people's radar,
46:25or will be a real minority of people asking for? Is there something that's jumped up that you go,
46:29this is what people expect now? I think that most people now link,
46:39most people understand that responsibility's got some, it's a bit of a counterculture,
46:44it's got some benefit to it as well, that there's something in it for them as well as
46:48for the destination. There are places which become very hot for about five years,
46:55and then this is the cycle of over-tourism, and you see it time and time again. So Iceland,
47:01everyone wants to go to Iceland, Croatia, Japan, and then you come out of that cycle
47:06because it's been spoiled. And so, and Cuba was like, get there before the Americans,
47:12to Cuba, there's been these huge rushes in five-year blocks for different places.
47:18Which should show a destination the importance of responsible travel and combating over-tourism,
47:24because they'd rather have a sustainable model for more than five years.
47:28It's very hard, once you've been tarred as spoiled, and then it's very hard to come back
47:35from that, it takes a long time. So if you're out there watching from a tourist board,
47:40don't let it get that far. Suffer before it happens.
47:45And how are you feeling about the future? Do we think that over-tourism is going to
47:49get worse before it gets better? Or are you seeing a shift towards more
47:54mindful and sustainable travel? I think it's going to get a lot worse.
48:00I'm doing more and more questions about it. I think this year we'll reach new heights for it.
48:07But at the same time, I see enough people thinking and talking, as we've all been doing
48:13differently about it, to think that in five years it might be a little bit better,
48:19but I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.
48:22But the terrifying statistic is that international tourism numbers are forecast to double
48:29by 2045, something like that. Which is not that far away.
48:36I like to think that it's becoming such a talked-about issue that there will be change
48:42but I don't think any of this is a quick fix. Normally I'm a pessimist but I feel like I'm
48:51slightly more positive this time. But I don't know. That is a staggering statistic,
48:56the numbers. I don't know how it would happen. If we just keep reporting on it and keep talking
49:03about it then surely something has to change. But I mean action, not just talking about it.
49:08But you asked me what's changed over 25 years. The consciousness, the single biggest thing is
49:13the consciousness of the impacts of travel, the impacts of my holiday, has risen enormously.
49:19Is that, because we all talk about, I won't wash my towels every day in a hotel or we
49:26won't use plastic, but is that the wider societal impact on communities?
49:31I think the first thing was the environmental impacts and so much commentary around flying
49:37and carbon emissions for very very good reasons. And I think we had 10 years of that and I hope
49:43we'll have another as long as it takes of that. But what has changed is the social thing has got
49:48added on top and that is more new. And so now you've got this combination of awareness of
49:54climate change and carbon emissions of transport and you've got the community and residents and
50:00societal issue come to the fore. And so that's quite an interesting question from one of our
50:08readers mainly focused on us Ben. Do we consciously choose not to write features on destinations that
50:13are affected by tourism? Well this is a conversation we've had. We haven't heard it frequently on the
50:20desk which I think. The truth is people go on holidays to these destinations and even if you're
50:25a responsible traveller you want to know. So we can't preface everything, I mean we do, we talk
50:30about it all the time but we can't say these are the great hotels in Mallorca but be a responsible
50:36traveller. And we can't then trust that everyone will be a responsible traveller when they go.
50:41I think that actually because our readers are adventurous and want to know other places it's
50:50quite easy for us to go to Rotterdam, it's very busy, why don't you try this? Or is this place the
50:56Venice of the North for example? Although Amsterdam, what's this? That's from Ovitourism. I think we
51:00read something last year about why Birmingham should be a... Absolutely and we still stand by it.
51:04Yeah it's, so I think it's tricky, it's a balance because we want to be conscious of it but at the
51:11same time we are there to reflect our readers' interests too. Like Barcelona is a great city to
51:18visit. So I think from this chat what I've taken away from it is we just need to make sure we
51:25inform people how to do it responsibly. And we're not about telling people how to travel or telling
51:30people what to do. I think our job is to inform and shine a light on places and give people the
51:37information and let them make their own decisions. I think it's helpful to think about my holiday
51:42will do some good and it may have some negative impacts but I'm just going to try and manage down
51:48the negative impacts but it'll have both. And then you know you each choose to take as much
51:53responsibility as you want or as you like and it may vary by trip. You might have some trips which
51:59are you know which are really very much focused on staying in an agritourism business and you know
52:07the good and you can evidence the good it's doing and you might have other trips which you're
52:11managing in a different way. So I think it's just a consciousness about doing things slightly better
52:18and understanding that you've got some choices and you can do that relatively easy.
52:24And we have a question from another reader who says how do we educate future generations?
52:30What's the message that we want to put out there and how do we put it out there?
52:34Well I think you're doing it you know through your writing. The fact this has become a big
52:39issue now in travel and tourism wouldn't have been I think is really important. We publish
52:44information on how to be a responsible traveler in destinations and I think that in destinations
52:53there's now a lot more onus on professional tourism managers who've got qualifications
52:57in sustainability. I see that happening a lot but there is a whole new career
53:05qualifications being created for those working in tourism to manage these types of issues.
53:10I thought what's quite interesting as well is just to keep the conversation open to keep
53:15talking and keep learning and I think that's we probably don't always get it right on
53:19on our travel articles but we constantly discuss it and constantly are aware of it and I actually
53:28was reading a responsible travel article and when I was in Japan about the snow monkeys because I
53:32wasn't quite sure whether I felt particularly comfortable after visiting them whether I felt
53:36like that was the right thing to do. Am I actively helping the economy? Is this helping
53:44the monkeys or is this all a bit wrong and a bit zoo-esque and I think the article I read sort of
53:49said we don't know absolutely and this is what we this is the information we have it's a constantly
53:56changing situation and I thought that was really quite interesting. I think I mean I think it's
54:01super key to have these conversations that's the only way that's any issues affecting the world
54:06you just need to keep talking about it because everyone has their own opinion and you can
54:10disagree and you can bet obviously some things are not just opinion based but yeah I mean this
54:18is why we need to we can't go right yeah over tourism is really bad let's try and be better
54:21we need to keep talking about we need to keep highlighting it I would commission something on
54:25the issue because it's not going away that's the thing. I think travelling in a gentle way
54:34travel is always a little bit challenging yeah because you're away from home it might be a
54:39different language it's a different food it's a different landscape and so there is always a
54:45little bit of a challenge there and I think that's why many of us want to do travel rather than stay
54:51at home and so this is another little challenge around tourism and I don't think there is a way
54:58to do it perfectly right yeah I think think about it be curious about it and read about it because
55:06it's not always obvious and I couldn't give you the right in every situation that's all part of
55:12this wonderful thing about going somewhere else. And I'm going to finish by and I'm not going to
55:20hold anyone to an answer here but by asking you for a destination for 2025 somewhere that you
55:26think tourism can really have a positive impact and you will be that welcomes tourism. My number
55:34one I've already been this year was to Jordan I spent a week there at the start of the year and
55:40what was wonderful is first of all there weren't very many tourists there at all so I was able to
55:44go and see Petra with barely anyone around and because there's been a slump in tourism
55:50I've really welcomed it's desperately wanted encouraged to stay and it was just such a lovely
55:57experience and so that's probably my my number one for for 2025 but I'm really interested to
56:02hear both of yours. Well mine was actually inspired by an article we published working
56:08with Resourceable Travel so I and I'm not saying this is my my only trip this year but it's very
56:13niche but I would love to go to Slovenia and do which I understand as a country has like the
56:19largest per capita beekeepers certainly in Europe and like bees are great and I think we need to
56:25protect bees and I'd love to to do that is it AP tourism it's get out and do something and I think
56:31that's it's brilliant experience you've done the beekeeping suits which I've done before in other
56:36places but also you know it takes you out to more rural areas into forests so you can support
56:41businesses in areas that you may not have gone to and it's not just the seeing the bees because
56:47there's a whole world around honey of sort of spa treatments and you can buy gifts to bring home
56:53that aren't just you know usual taps that you might grab at the airport and you know honey's delicious
56:58so that would be my quite niche responsible trip for one of the many responsible trips for 2025.
57:06I'm going to go niche as well because the world is full of these niches
57:11so I'm thinking about the Carpathian mountains I would like to hear wolves at night that kind of
57:20howling I think it'd be amazing to hear and so I was looking for wolves and bears and it was
57:26all very far-flung you know Montana or actually bears and wolves in the Carpathian mountains
57:32quite close at hand Europe's wildest forests some of them untouched which is incredibly rare
57:40that we can help sustain by being there and creating an economy around them the wolves at
57:45night the abilities who are very traditional and living life in a very different way than we used
57:51to so I'm thinking of scaring myself stupid with the wolves howling at night in the Carpathian
57:58mountains that's a great one I was just about to say is that a fairly accessible destination is
58:03that or would would that require some serious planning and no that's not very far and that's
58:10very doable right well that's I think that's a really nice note to end on um so thank you
58:17Justin for joining us this evening and then as well and thank you to