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(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Miftah Ismail APP
- Shahbaz Rana (Economist Analyst)
- Dr Khaqan Hassan Najeeb (Economist Analyst)
- Jahanzaib Ali (ARY News Reporter)
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
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ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Miftah Ismail APP
- Shahbaz Rana (Economist Analyst)
- Dr Khaqan Hassan Najeeb (Economist Analyst)
- Jahanzaib Ali (ARY News Reporter)
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, I am Mariam Nehman and today's top stories is about Pakistan and IMF agreement.
00:16There seems to be some delay in the announcement and signatures.
00:21No details have been released yet. Is this going to be postponed or is it just a matter of technicalities?
00:28Some paperwork was not able to be done today. We will talk about this in the first part of the program.
00:33After that, new solar policy. There is always confusion in Pakistan about solar policy, always about power policy.
00:39We will talk about that today. The Sarfines are shocked after this new announcement.
00:44How? How much expensive electricity will be generated after this? We will tell you all this in the second part of the program.
00:48After that, Pakistan has been included in the US travel ban.
00:52Pakistan's entry has not been banned yet.
00:56But still, the visa grant has been done marginally and sharply.
01:02So, there is definitely a bell of danger. We will talk about this in the last part of the program.
01:06The agreement between Pakistan and the IMF was very unlikely to happen today.
01:11The Minister of Finance announced this in the presence of the business community.
01:15Now, everything is smooth sailing from here.
01:18There seems to be some delay.
01:21According to the IMF's announcement today, Pakistan and the IMF's 7 billion dollar loan program
01:27after the first review of the program was completed.
01:30According to the announcement, the negotiations between Pakistan and the IMF were carried out from March 3 to May 14, 2025.
01:37In the announcement, it was said that Pakistan and the IMF have made significant progress for the staff level agreement.
01:42And Pakistan has strictly adhered to the conditions of the loan program.
01:46According to the announcement, Pakistan and the IMF discussed the management of loan payments,
01:49the reduction in the scope of the finance sector, the improvement of the finance sector,
01:53the progress of economic development and the improvement of public health.
01:57There was also a change of mind with Pakistan in reducing the costs of education, social security, and seasonal changes.
02:03The IMF said that Pakistan has made significant economic strides to reduce government loans,
02:07while strict monetary policy has also been adopted to reduce inflation.
02:11Pakistan has reformed to reduce electricity costs,
02:15while it has also acted on a reform agenda to increase economic benefits.
02:20According to the IMF, a climate reforms agenda was negotiated,
02:23and funds can be provided to Pakistan to deal with seasonal changes.
02:30The IMF also said that talks with Pakistan have been strong.
02:33The mission will continue the policy negotiations through a video conference in the next few days,
02:39so that these matters can be finalized.
02:42Before the program, we will talk about this.
02:44Our panel is very interesting today.
02:46Dr. Mifta Ismail is the former Secretary General of the People's Party of Pakistan.
02:52Mr. Shahbaz Rana is a senior journalist.
02:54Mr. Shahbaz Rana has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to the IMF.
03:02We will talk to him.
03:03Mr. Najeeb is an international economist.
03:06Thank you all very much.
03:07Mr. Shahbaz, I saw your tweet in which you said that this was an almost done deal.
03:13Last week, when you were in my program, you also said that you did not see any obstacle in it.
03:18The situation is very good.
03:21There is a positive and futuristic language in this.
03:27The language is also very friendly.
03:31But why has this deal not been done?
03:34Are there any technicalities?
03:36Are there any other reasons?
03:37What is your assessment?
03:41Thank you very much.
03:43You are absolutely right.
03:45Mr. Shahbaz Rana's two-week speech did not have any extraordinary negative things.
03:52His speech was going well.
03:54There were some slippages.
03:56But the IMF did not insist too much on the ground realities.
04:01Although one of the outstanding things is that these fiscal targets are also included.
04:05This was a very unusual thing.
04:08Two days ago, the IMF gave a briefing to foreign diplomats.
04:16They gave an all-okay report.
04:18After the briefing, it seemed that things would be fine.
04:23Normally, Mr. Ismail will be able to tell better.
04:26But when foreign diplomats are briefed, they are told that things are going well.
04:31They have been told that they have a lot of work to do.
04:36Things are going on track.
04:38You also mentioned the finance minister.
04:40I also mentioned in the news that the finance minister also said in yesterday's meeting that things are going well.
04:46We were expecting a staff-level agreement after all this.
04:51But against our expectations and hopes, there was no staff-level agreement.
04:56Irrespective of how much positive language has been used in it,
05:00they have both said that there is a strong commitment and significant progress has been made towards the staff-level agreement.
05:07But there was no staff-level agreement.
05:09The next thing they are saying is that these negotiations will continue in the coming days.
05:13When such language is used, it is okay that there were some slippages in the past.
05:18But you showed commitment.
05:19You tried to implement it.
05:21In particular, it seems to be quite satisfied with the Agricultural Income Tax.
05:24At least, new laws have been introduced.
05:27When it comes to forecasting, how the economy of Pakistan will perform in the future,
05:34and how it will perform on the fiscal side,
05:36I think it is delayed in the agreement due to those reasons.
05:40Mr. Mifta, the current situation is that this agreement has not been reached.
05:45But it seems that there will be further engagements on the basis of language and cooperation.
05:53And there will be.
05:54They are saying that they will engage online.
05:57We will go online and keep talking.
06:00Is it a unique thing that there is no agreement?
06:05Has this happened in the past?
06:07Apart from this, is there a political aspect to it?
06:11Can there be a political reason behind it?
06:17It is not unusual that there is no agreement.
06:21Often it happens that there is no agreement and then it happens after a few days.
06:27Sometimes they tell the authorities or the government to do one or two things.
06:32After that, we will do it.
06:33They see that you have done it.
06:35Or you ask the Prime Minister, etc.
06:37These things happen.
06:38Sometimes it happens that the mission that has come, they also work there in IMF.
06:43And they also have to answer their bosses.
06:46And it is possible that they are doing further consultation.
06:50I think this is it.
06:51They liked everything, but their bosses are not satisfied yet.
06:55So they are further consulting their bosses.
06:58Look, these are the things.
07:00Now you tell me, should we do this or not?
07:02And in terms of compliance, if we look at Pakistan's work so far, is it satisfactory?
07:07Has it been able to satisfy the IMF as much as you are seeing?
07:11As far as I am concerned, there were some fiscal targets and some structural targets in the IMF program.
07:23The structural targets were more important.
07:25The government has been unsuccessful there.
07:28And the government has taken waivers from the IMF.
07:31Things have been accepted by the IMF.
07:33But they had promised a fiscal pact, under which some expenses had to be given to the province.
07:38They have not been able to give BISP, etc.
07:40It was about pension reforms.
07:42They have not been able to do it.
07:43It was about reducing some ministries.
07:45They have not been able to do it.
07:46It was about privatization.
07:47They have not been able to do it.
07:48But what they said to the IMF that we will take tax,
07:52so again, they have not been able to take tax from the shopkeepers.
07:55But they have taken a lot of tax from the people in the job market.
07:58They have increased the rate in the sale tax and taken more in the sale tax.
08:02So they have taken a lot of money from the consumers and the people in the job market.
08:06So I think the effort of the government is visible.
08:09But I don't see the effort of the government on structural issues.
08:15Mr. Khakar Najeeb, you heard the conversation.
08:17You also heard the point of view of both.
08:19Do you agree with Mr. Mufta that the United States and its related institutions
08:25are also going through a change, if I may say so, very nicely.
08:30They have their own concerns.
08:32The world order is changing.
08:34There is also politics related to it.
08:35A lot of things are going to settle in the next 6-8 months.
08:38Can all those issues also affect the negotiations with the IMF?
08:42Or is it a separate matter?
08:44It has nothing to do with it.
08:46So Maria, the ideal situation is that whenever a host country visits a mission,
08:52the host country should be so prepared on both technical and policy negotiations
08:57that the agreement, which is called the staff level agreement, should be inked.
09:01When we ran the 13-16 program, the 12 agreements were made at the same time.
09:06There was a slight delay in between.
09:08Pakistan has always found it hard to reach staff level agreements.
09:13That is why very few of the 24 programs have been completed.
09:17So that is important to know.
09:19The current situation is that technically you have to satisfy.
09:24First you have to complete your work.
09:26There were 8 structural benchmarks.
09:29If you don't look at them in detail and don't ascertain their quality,
09:34then this discussion will only get worse.
09:36When I look at those 8, when you had to amend the Sovereign Wealth Fund, for example.
09:42If that didn't happen, then obviously there is a discussion.
09:45If you had to do the National Fiscal Pact, what was its quality?
09:49Did you make a report that you had to make,
09:52with which you had to ensure devolution according to the 18th amendment?
09:57This is not as simple as a discussion.
10:01So technically, then you come on to the numbers.
10:04If you have a shortfall of Rs. 380 billion and your total shortfall is Rs. 600-700 billion,
10:10then your primary surplus, which the fund has given more importance to,
10:15that is, if you remove the mark-up payment, then how will you complete it?
10:19After this, you have to keep the policy in front of you,
10:22that what changes will you make in the expenditure to get to that.
10:26After doing these two things, IMF then continuously,
10:30when it is sitting in the arena at night, it's exactly how this works,
10:33it is having a discussion with its FAD department or monetary department,
10:37and it is sharing and it is modeling,
10:40that what it is saying, will it be fulfilled or not?
10:44When there are some losses left on it, then at policy level,
10:47you try to improve it more and try to end it.
10:51Leaving the Pakistan fund,
10:53you have to postpone 15-16 billion dollars,
10:56there is a balance of payments challenge,
10:58macro-stability, which you say is very easy to understand in words,
11:01shortfall in Afrat-e-Zar,
11:03taking care of the current account,
11:05going to 11 billion dollars of reserves,
11:07all this is due to the engagement of the fund.
11:10So we have to stay this course,
11:12but you have to do your homework so thoroughly,
11:15that wherever there are losses,
11:17wherever there are shortfalls,
11:19like in the Tajir Dost scheme, it was not fulfilled,
11:21that's okay, you can go and do something else.
11:23It happens like this,
11:25whenever I have supported two programs of Pakistan,
11:28as a core team member,
11:30you come up with something else.
11:32This may take some time,
11:34then there is one very important thing,
11:36which is missing in this picture,
11:38that all this has to culminate,
11:40that what is to be the budget FY26,
11:43and what will the government ask for,
11:45that do we want to reduce the income tax,
11:48and what will be the set-ups for that.
11:51I think that's where we start.
11:53Very interesting.
11:54So Mr. Shabaz, the homework thing that you are talking about,
11:56because you have followed this issue very aggressively,
11:59how did you find the homework of the Pakistani government here,
12:03especially when teams come,
12:05you have your own preparedness.
12:06And secondly, what are the conditions,
12:08do you think Pakistan will be successful in getting it done,
12:11and what are the tough decisions,
12:13that we have to implement.
12:21Miss Maria, the start of this program was not good.
12:24The mission for Muzakirat came in May 2024,
12:28it went back without a staff level agreement,
12:31and on July 12, 2024,
12:33after about three months,
12:35a staff level agreement was made for a $7 billion program.
12:37As soon as the program was approved in September 2024,
12:41the mission came back in November,
12:44because the program was off-track.
12:46When the emergency mission came to Pakistan,
12:49they started doing something there,
12:51the Prime Minister took ownership,
12:53the Finance Ministry took ownership,
12:55but then the same issues came up,
12:56the FBI came forward,
12:58that you have set such a big target without asking us,
13:00the Food Ministry has objected,
13:02the Petroleum Department has objected,
13:04that you have decided to end the food support price,
13:06without asking us,
13:08the Commerce Ministry had some objections,
13:10then the Petroleum Department had objections,
13:12that you have decided to end the gas supply
13:14without asking us,
13:16all these blames were going against the Finance Ministry,
13:18so from there,
13:20the Finance Ministry became defensive,
13:22so this time,
13:24their strategy was that
13:26whatever they have to talk,
13:28whatever targets they have to set,
13:30whatever targets they have to set,
13:32they have to communicate directly with the Ministry,
13:34and not talk about us,
13:36instead of burdening themselves,
13:38they have directed it towards them,
13:40as always,
13:42the Finance Ministry has a central role,
13:44and everything happens in its presence,
13:46in the same way,
13:48the State Bank of Pakistan,
13:50Mufti Ismail can guide better on this,
13:52for the first time,
13:54they had separate negotiations,
13:56some were in their round,
13:58but not in Karachi,
14:00so this time,
14:02their strategy,
14:04another problem this time,
14:06is that,
14:08Memorandum for Economic and Financial Policies,
14:10is a document,
14:12MEFP,
14:14which is called in common language,
14:16this is a document of MEFP,
14:18you are not getting it on time,
14:20IMF is giving a draft to Pakistan,
14:22they don't get a draft on time,
14:24they will get a draft,
14:26if there is a consensus on time,
14:28there will be a staff level agreement,
14:30the draft is shared with them,
14:32despite the fact that everything is going well,
14:34this indicates that everything was not that well,
14:36as we were expecting,
14:38thirdly and more importantly,
14:40some critical conditions,
14:42were not implemented on time,
14:44which Mr. Ismail has said very well,
14:46where you put a lock on some keys,
14:48and stopped things from stopping,
14:50you showed performance on the fiscal side,
14:52where structural reforms had to be done,
14:54the real estate sector,
14:56was not successful,
14:58half-hearted attempts were made,
15:00the sovereign wealth fund,
15:02half-hearted attempts were made,
15:04because these were difficult decisions,
15:06then in the act of the sovereign wealth fund,
15:08it was supposed to be implemented by December 2024,
15:10it was not done,
15:12the law of agriculture income tax,
15:14was supposed to be passed by 1st October,
15:16it was not done,
15:18it was passed late,
15:20it was supposed to be implemented by 1st January,
15:22there was not a single privatisation,
15:24similarly, in the power sector,
15:26he showed some performance,
15:28the reason for that is something else,
15:30I don't want to overshadow his performance,
15:32you will get to know in a few months,
15:34as a whole,
15:36if this was not the first review of IMF,
15:38this is my assessment,
15:40if this was not the first review of IMF,
15:42then the positive statements that came,
15:44would not have been so positive,
15:46if it was the third or fourth review,
15:48at the time of the first review,
15:50but the structural things that were supposed to be underlined,
15:52could not be done.
15:54We have always heard about structural reforms,
15:56but politically,
15:58there is no leverage,
16:00neither does the government,
16:02and this government does not have any space,
16:04Shabaz pointed out a technical point,
16:06that these separate negotiations,
16:08earlier they used to be under the umbrella of the finance ministry,
16:10it was a tight ship,
16:12who used to know who is the captain,
16:14where is the authority,
16:16is this strategy more effective,
16:18is this strategy more effective,
16:20to have separate negotiations,
16:22instead of negotiating directly with the finance ministry?
16:26No,
16:28one person should negotiate,
16:30one person should negotiate,
16:32be it the finance minister,
16:34be it Shamshad Sahiba,
16:36be it Arun Teb,
16:38be it Aadhar,
16:40one person should negotiate,
16:42and then the other ministers,
16:44and the secretaries,
16:46with their confidence,
16:48obviously the technical people of the IMF,
16:50meet the secretaries,
16:52but at the time of policy,
16:54only one person should negotiate,
16:56and sometimes the IMF tries,
16:58to negotiate separately with the world bank,
17:00and negotiate separately with the finance ministry,
17:02but this understanding should be there,
17:04between the governor and the prime minister,
17:06that we will do it together,
17:08and we will exchange notes all day,
17:10I think that is not happening right now,
17:12and the finance ministry,
17:14has no influence on the state bank,
17:16that is not there now,
17:18often the governor,
17:20is brought by the finance minister,
17:22and they are friends,
17:24this is not the case this time,
17:26so that is a problem,
17:28but actually I think,
17:30the problem in fiscal policy,
17:32is that if your revenue has decreased,
17:34then you can explain that easily,
17:36that my revenue has decreased,
17:38because inflation has decreased in Pakistan,
17:40sorry not inflation,
17:42because inflation has decreased in Pakistan,
17:44so my revenue has decreased,
17:46but the second question is that,
17:48if your inflation has decreased,
17:50then why are your expenses not decreasing,
17:52and our expenses are also increasing,
17:54and the second thing is that,
17:56everything that is reported in the Pakistan newspapers,
17:58the IMF knows about it,
18:00when we are planning here,
18:02that we will give Marath,
18:04we will give a 5 crore exception to the real estate people,
18:06so the IMF knows all this,
18:08and there is a pressure on us,
18:10so I think,
18:12and I still think,
18:14that if they do it on this also,
18:16because at this time,
18:18there can be no mini-budget,
18:20I think they are consulting each other,
18:22what Khakhan Bhai said,
18:24that things used to happen between 13 and 16,
18:26or when things used to happen,
18:28then SLAs used to happen,
18:30and they used to happen,
18:32but at that time,
18:34lakhs of American soldiers were not in Afghanistan,
18:36today American soldiers are not in Afghanistan,
18:38so the IMF also looks left and right,
18:40this is a process,
18:42this is an economic process,
18:44but it is not more than politics,
18:46a political shadow definitely falls on it,
18:48and the IMF,
18:50along with policy making,
18:52if it wants to increase its influence
18:54politically in the whole world,
18:56then it plays a very critical role,
18:58and maybe this is what Pakistan is seeing right now,
19:00Mr. Khakhan,
19:02before going to the break,
19:04I have a question for you,
19:06regarding the upcoming budget,
19:08will there be a discussion
19:10regarding all the requirements
19:12of the budget,
19:14and will there be a discussion
19:16regarding the demands
19:18and the requirements
19:20of the state of Pakistan,
19:22is there a possibility
19:24to have a discussion
19:26or will there be a strict
19:28policy of the IMF?
19:36Yes, Mr. Khakhan.
19:38If you look at
19:40Pakistan's current program,
19:42there is a very special thing
19:44that it has roped in
19:46the provinces for the first time
19:48in this program,
19:50if you look at the background,
19:52we had always kept the provinces
19:54in the background,
19:56but they were not roped in like this.
19:58Secondly, the difference in this program
20:00is that the governance angle
20:02that has been added,
20:04so the need for coordinating
20:06the program is most, most important.
20:08Now, the upcoming budget,
20:10as I requested you,
20:12if it gets boarded in May,
20:14then the finalization of the upcoming budget
20:16has to come in this MEFP.
20:18If I can give you
20:20the exact number,
20:22the target of the next FPR
20:24at this time, if we don't change it
20:26to 12,970,
20:28then it will be 15,000 billion.
20:30This means that
20:32we need at least 16% more growth
20:34if we reach 12,970,
20:36even if we reduce it to 6,700,
20:38because nominal growth
20:40even next year,
20:42if I think 6, 7% inflation,
20:443, 4%,
20:46which you will call in terms of
20:48real GDP,
20:50so the total nominal growth
20:52of 10%, still you will have a gap
20:54of 5, 6%.
20:56So that forms a very important basis
20:58for discussion,
21:00whether that gap will come from
21:02enforcement,
21:04from administrative measures,
21:06from policy measures,
21:08so the room for maneuverability
21:10is very less, even with the authorities.
21:12Now, all this discussion is also
21:14necessary.
21:16Then you see that the real effective exchange rate,
21:18which Rupaiya has moved a little,
21:20has gone to 104,
21:22because all this is happening in Islamabad.
21:24When they visit Karachi,
21:26I am sure there must have been a discussion on this as well.
21:28If you want to review the GDP target,
21:30you will have to look at the macro numbers as well.
21:32Looking at LSM,
21:34and what we saw,
21:36the data of the first three months,
21:38of 0.9% growth,
21:40and looking at agriculture, especially cotton,
21:42you will have to review that as well.
21:44I think a lot of changes in the MEFP
21:46are necessary.
21:48And the further data of the MEFP
21:50for the next 3 to 5 years,
21:52that will also vary,
21:54because the estimate of 25 is quite a lot
21:56Phenomenal growth and going on
21:58have varied.
22:00There is very little policy space.
22:02Let's go to the break.
22:04When we come back,
22:06our guests will be the same,
22:08but the new solar policy of the government
22:10is the most confused government.
22:12The election claims are something else.
22:14When we come back and take control of power,
22:16the policy decisions are something else.
22:18Stay with us after the break.
22:20Welcome back.
22:22The new solar policy of the government,
22:24before coming to power,
22:26the electors used to claim
22:28that electricity will be cheaper,
22:30solar panels will be installed,
22:32schemes will be announced.
22:34But now we have seen
22:36that the new policy
22:38is such that a common person
22:40who has installed a solar panel
22:42will be punished for it.
22:44How did he think
22:46that he will make his life easier
22:48by installing a solar panel?
22:50The current net metering
22:52regulations have
22:54approved many reforms.
22:56According to the reforms,
22:58the buyback rate of electricity
23:00has been reduced.
23:02The 10 rupees fee unit
23:04was decided.
23:06Instead of 27 rupees,
23:08a 10 rupees fee unit will be purchased
23:10from the new solar policy.
23:12The government will charge
23:14the same customer
23:1642 rupees fee unit
23:18and 48 rupees fee unit.
23:20Apart from this,
23:22the bill will include
23:24a rough estimate of 65 rupees.
23:26According to the government,
23:28the goal is to reduce the financial burden
23:30on the grid.
23:32This decision was made
23:34due to the increasing
23:36number of net metering sarfines.
23:38Due to solar power,
23:40there was a loss
23:42in trying to reduce
23:44electricity for grid users.
23:4680% of the sarfines
23:48have a load of 159 rupees.
23:50This load will increase
23:52to 4,240 rupees
23:54by 2034.
23:56Due to the increase in the number
23:58of solar sarfines,
24:00the number has increased
24:02to 2,83,000.
24:04It has been declared
24:06that the framework
24:08will not be applied
24:10to the current net metering sarfines.
24:12The sarfines will be shifted
24:14under this framework
24:16The Punjab government
24:18has said that
24:20the sarfines should be
24:22converted to solar energy
24:24and incentives will be given.
24:26The government has
24:28discouraged people
24:30to go towards solar energy.
24:32It has said that it will
24:34give rates on grid.
24:36The bill for electricity
24:38has increased
24:40due to the increase
24:42in the number of solar panels
24:44The government wants
24:46the load on the grid to be reduced.
24:48Is this the most confusing
24:50policy or what is the policy power policy?
24:52If you understand,
24:54please explain it to me.
24:58I am not smart at all.
25:00The government calls me negative.
25:02You can call me smart.
25:04You and I
25:06keep criticizing the government.
25:08Our government
25:10is aware of people
25:12and sarfines
25:14had to pay
25:1690 paise per unit
25:18due to solar panels.
25:20Feeling the pain of the people,
25:22they have reduced
25:24the load of 90 paise.
25:26The government is still
25:28charging
25:3018 paise per unit
25:32and
25:3416 to 17 paise per unit.
25:36Secondly,
25:38there is
25:40an intellectual honesty.
25:42You read the number
25:44in the press release.
25:46The load of 4200 rupees
25:48will increase due to solar panels.
25:50They are giving cumulative numbers.
25:52According to them,
25:54the load of 250 rupees
25:56will increase to 4200 rupees
25:58in 10 years.
26:00Even now,
26:02they have forgotten
26:04the annual payment of
26:062100 to 2200 rupees.
26:12The bottom line
26:14is that
26:16inconsistencies
26:18are not good
26:20for the economy.
26:22Change the policies
26:24but make it realistic.
26:26Don't force them.
26:28Reduce their benefit.
26:30If they are being paid
26:3210 rupees,
26:34reduce it.
26:36Don't force them
26:38to sell electricity
26:40for 500 rupees.
26:42No matter how hard
26:44the government tries,
26:46they can't stop solarization.
26:48People will
26:50move towards battery storage.
26:52They will try to get
26:54out of the toxic grid.
26:56The process will be slow
26:58but it won't end.
27:00The theft
27:02from the electricity bill
27:04and the circular debt
27:06will be compensated
27:08with 3.23 rupees.
27:14The line losses
27:16and under-recovery
27:18will be compensated.
27:20The circular debt
27:22and theft
27:24won't end.
27:26The under-recovery
27:28will be compensated
27:30with 3.23 rupees.
27:34Change the policies
27:36and incentivize people
27:38to move towards the toxic grid.
27:40Don't punish people
27:42to move towards the toxic grid.
27:44What I understand
27:46is that
27:48the government identifies
27:50which sector has
27:52a problem
27:54and takes it away.
27:56The government
27:58is paying taxes
28:00and is making money.
28:02The solar panelists
28:04have found a way
28:06to reduce the cost
28:08of electricity
28:10and control the budget.
28:12Don't make strict
28:14structural reforms.
28:16Target and extract
28:18from where people have
28:20cushion.
28:26It's a lie.
28:28I'm not saying it's wrong.
28:30It's a lie.
28:32Last year,
28:34the total solar power
28:36they bought was 34 billion.
28:38This year,
28:40they'll probably buy
28:4250-52 billion.
28:44It's a burden.
28:46It's like
28:48those who have installed
28:50solar panels,
28:52if they hadn't installed
28:54solar panels,
28:56we would have sold so much.
28:58The ARY people
29:00are saying that
29:02if there hadn't been
29:04more channels,
29:06we would have
29:08got more ads.
29:10The second channel
29:12is a burden on us.
29:14The second channel
29:16is competition.
29:18The second thing is
29:20that the government
29:22is saying that
29:24if your economy is so bad
29:26and your efficiency is so bad
29:28that you get electricity
29:30at a lower cost,
29:32then what is the benefit
29:34of the grid?
29:36First of all,
29:38it's not a burden of 90 paise.
29:40The cost is increasing.
29:42If you want to save costs,
29:44if they had given
29:4634 billion last year,
29:481.2 billion
29:50units,
29:521.2 billion units
29:54they have bought
29:56from the solar companies,
29:58they have lost
30:00200 billion units
30:02in line losses.
30:04They have made
30:0620 times more line losses.
30:08If you are worried about
30:10the burden of 90 paise,
30:12then reduce the line losses.
30:14You can't do that.
30:16The real reason is that
30:18you are selling electricity
30:20for Rs. 50 or Rs. 60.
30:22The electricity you are selling
30:24for Rs. 60 is a burden
30:26on the solar companies.
30:28Now you are
30:30saying that you will give
30:32Rs. 10 instead of Rs. 8.5.
30:34You have done gross metering.
30:36You have brought Rs. 22
30:38for Rs. 27.
30:40The reason is not that
30:42electricity is expensive.
30:44The reason is that
30:46you want to give subsidies
30:48to the poor,
30:50but you are distorting the price.
30:52The government says that
30:54they have made electricity
30:56cheaper for the poor,
30:58but they don't say
31:00that they have made
31:02electricity more expensive
31:04for the middle class.
31:06They don't give money
31:08from the government.
31:10This is a very flawed policy.
31:12If they had stopped
31:14the use of computers,
31:16we would have stopped
31:18the use of typewriters.
31:20When mobile phones came,
31:22the fixed line telephony
31:24in Pakistan stopped.
31:26In the next 4-5 years,
31:28after solar power and batteries,
31:30the grid will basically
31:32remain an exchange.
31:34If I have more electricity,
31:36I will give it to Maria.
31:38If Maria has more electricity,
31:40I will give it to Shahzaib.
31:42This should not be stopped.
31:44Solarization should be done.
31:46The consumer cannot be penalized
31:48for their mistakes.
31:50The middle class is paying the price.
31:52You are saying that it is a flawed policy.
31:54I think it is an ad hoc policy.
31:56It is a lack of policy.
31:58A policy is made for a short span of time.
32:00Earlier, you encouraged people
32:02to install electricity
32:04on solar power.
32:06Now we know that
32:08there is a lot of burden on the grid.
32:10In the next 10 years,
32:12PMLN's energy policy
32:14will change.
32:16First, there will be IPPs.
32:18Then solar.
32:20Then IPPs will be compensated.
32:22What is the long-term policy
32:24of the government
32:26to solve power issues?
32:28If you go to the heart
32:30of the problem,
32:32whether it is the 1994 policy
32:34or the 2002 policy
32:36or the 2015 policy,
32:38where rates and tariff structures
32:40are guaranteed,
32:42where does the problem lie?
32:46It lies in the fact
32:48that you need
32:50a professional synergistic
32:52energy ministry.
32:54You need synergies
32:56like solar, water, power,
32:58petroleum and gas.
33:00If you want to correct this
33:02in the long term,
33:04you will have to go one way.
33:06We have not been able to go that way.
33:08Secondly,
33:10there is a nascent regulator
33:12in this country,
33:14which means that
33:16to make these two
33:18state-of-the-art regulators,
33:20people will have to bring them
33:22from somewhere.
33:24Don't make it a parking spot.
33:26This is too important.
33:28Market making,
33:30all these things
33:32will have to be done.
33:34And finally, of course,
33:36privatization.
33:38This is a problem that
33:40Tanzim-e-Nau has in front of you.
33:42There are many details on this.
33:44This 27 rupee policy had to be tweaked.
33:46I am clear on this,
33:48because the price of the
33:50very expensive solar
33:52was very low,
33:54and the payback of 4 years
33:56was around 1.5-2 years.
33:58Can we talk about tweaking
34:0010 rupees?
34:02We are talking about
34:04market metering.
34:06These are the issues.
34:08Let me say one last thing.
34:10Who has stopped you
34:12from going to the cost of service
34:14and not telling every disco
34:16that whatever line losses
34:18and inefficiencies you do,
34:20your price will be that,
34:22and if someone reduces it,
34:24its price will be less.
34:26Why have you kept the tariff
34:28of the whole country separately?
34:30There is a lot that can be done.
34:32I really hope that the authorities
34:34will consider to do all this.
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