The Karnataka government’s special cabinet meeting held on Thursday to discuss the Socio-Economic Survey, better known as the caste census report, ended without a final decision, with the state expected to reconvene for further deliberations on May 2.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary. We've got two debates lined up for you.
00:04First up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:10Supreme Court bars non-Muslim appointments to Vak bodies, stays property, denotification till next hearing.
00:17Centre asked to file response in seven days.
00:50The government to complete recruitment process by year-end. Supreme Court says students must not suffer.
01:01BJP slams Tamil Nadu government using temple logo on Karuna Nidhi's memorials as the logo is an insult to Hindu sentiments.
01:08DMK claims Gopuram part of Tamil Nadu's official state emblem.
01:16India hits back if Pakistan army cheats two-nation theory pitch.
01:20India tells Pakistan to vacate illegally occupied territories.
01:29BCCI cracked the whip on team India coaching staff after humiliating defeat against Australia in Wadagawaskar Trophy.
01:37Batting coach Abhishek Nair and fielding coach Dilip Sankt.
01:41All right, let's get you the latest news break coming in from Bihar.
01:59And this is the alliance talks between the RGD and the Congress.
02:02And while they've just begun, they have already hit a speed bump.
02:06Bahagat Bandhan's seat-sharing talks clearly stalled.
02:09There's been no seat-sharing consensus between RGD and Congress.
02:12But the big news point in all of this, viewers, comes from the fact that there is no consensus on the face of who will lead the India alliance campaign in the state of Bihar.
02:26That means there is no consensus on the face of Tejas Viyadha.
02:31The reason why our source is telling us while the talks were going on, the Congress was completely quiet when it came down to announcing a face to lead the India alliance campaign in the Bihar elections as Tejas Viyadha.
02:45So where does, you know, the talks now lie, where RGD and the Congress are concerned?
02:52We are yet to get a deeper understanding of it.
02:55But this is the second meeting that had taken place.
02:58The first, of course, which had taken place was in the national capital with the senior leadership.
03:02You had Tejas Viyadha, who had flown to Delhi to meet the top brass of the Congress, Mr. Khadge Rahul Gandhi.
03:07But the second meeting, and this was supposed to be a crucial meeting where a lot of the fine print of this alliance had to be ironed over.
03:18And there is already a hiccup in all of that because no consensus is coming in where it comes down to the face of Tejas Viyadha to lead the alliance in the Bihar post.
03:31Seed sharing is something which at least our sources seem to tell, tell us that over time will be ironed out that issue.
03:39But consensus is because RGD has dug in its heels where it comes down to announcing Tejas Viyadha as the face of the campaign of the India alliance.
03:49All right, let's quickly move on to our top debate, though.
04:00Now, this story coming in and brewing in the state of Tamil Nadu for a while, trouble mounting for Congress Karnataka.
04:06Chief Minister Sidhara Maya currently chairing a key cabinet meet today after protests mounted in Karnataka against the controversial socio-economic and education survey report.
04:16Chief Minister Sidhara Maya on Wednesday assured that his government would not allow injustice to any community.
04:23According to the report, which has yet to be made public, the Vokaliga and Lingayat population declined in the state.
04:29On the other hand, population of Muslims and the Estes have increased.
04:33This has now triggered political unrest even within the ruling Congress party.
04:38Several Congress leaders are openly speaking out against the caste census, suggesting plain and simple this will spell doom for the Congress.
04:46The one in the state against all is self-economic affairs have been confirmed in Kandras know our�� and Hisrul and their human rights issue.
04:52Every?
04:52The words of the her Mr. Kandras are seen as the House of Republicans' Brush Festival is asked for cinco reasons.
04:55Oh, let's have aならke.
04:57It's the only comment, just tell hotter than the sistema Vater will review to the individual members as the are the Prime Minister.
05:01Christopher S ABC comptnisse made the private speaking calendar protocol with the local government in the state.
05:08Especially theents and the local government, there is noidarah.
05:11But if you are alone, you are the Coward Bank and the Propheal Protection stra Frederick it is done with any social security advocates.
05:13Sir, your government passed a 4% legislation, sent it to the governor. The governor has not signed it. He has sent it to the president. How do you see it?
05:19Let him send it. For that only, the Supreme Court has already given a clear clarity. Governors have to clear it within three months. At the same time, the government of India, the president also should clear it in such and such a time. Otherwise, the streets are automatically completed.
05:40Do you think the governor is working against the government?
05:42Yes, naturally.
05:43All right, so more news coming in right now. A special cabinet meeting on the socio-economic survey concluded without a final decision. The matter is going to continue to brew and stew.
05:58The chief minister has asked ministers to submit their concerns in writing. The government is likely to convene another round of cabinet discussions on the issue. That's the latest now coming in. I want to quickly cut across to our panelists this evening.
06:10Sandeep Shastri, National Coordinator, Lokneethi Network. Deepak Thimaya, National Spokesperson, Congress.
06:16Swarubhi Holdingre, Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party. I want to cut across to Sandeep Shastri first.
06:22Sandeep Shastri, understandably, that is what was expected, that there is going to be no clear conclusion.
06:26The matter, at least politically speaking, is going to continue to simmer.
06:31You know, but the fallout of that, Sandeep Shastri, the timing of all of it, everything contentious.
06:38Prithi, if you look at the Sidramaya agenda, it was very clear that Sidramaya, as an Ahinda leader, saw himself as somebody protecting the interests of the backward caste.
06:55And now, when there is this whole debate on whether the Karnataka chief minister needs to change after two and a half years, I think this is an important political trump card that has been played in terms of putting the caste census in the forefront.
07:11Because, if this caste census report, which has come out in the media, is to be believed, it states that the Vokaligas and Lingayats, the two dominant castes of Karnataka, their relative strength has gone down.
07:27Prithi, it's important to remember that the Vokaligas and Lingayats have always been more than half the MLAs of Karnataka.
07:34And, if it is said now that their relative strength is going down, it has very serious political implications and it is likely to have serious repercussions.
07:46Let's also remember that in the past, whenever any backward caste commission has suggested that either Lingayats or Vokaligas or both should be taken out of the backward caste list,
07:58it has been strongly opposed, it has been strongly opposed and no government has been able to take them out of the backward caste list.
08:04So, this is going to raise a large number of issues and as you very rightly said, the Congress ministry itself is divided on the issue.
08:15And that's why you have a cabinet decision which seems to be that ministers will submit their views on this, their disquiet about it.
08:23And I think the point they are largely making which D.K. Shukmar also made is that we are for social justice as Rahul Gandhi says,
08:33but then we need to look at issues of the caste census more closely.
08:38So, I think that's the stand and it will not be easy for either the Congress government or the Congress party to take this issue forward without too much of ruffling of feathers.
08:48You know, Deepak Tamaya, the question is if all of this was happening, if that report or the proverbial caste census was stable.
08:55Mind you, it's 10 years old, number one. The timing of it is contentious.
08:59One of the points was touched on, but none other by Mr. Shastri who said, you know, it's been two and a half years and there is enough discontent where your party is concerned.
09:07But let's leave the conspiracy theories aside.
09:09The fact is, this is a leak because we still don't know what the report actually says.
09:18You are on mute, sir.
09:22Sorry. That is only speculation, right?
09:25If you are speaking about something that we don't know of.
09:28Nobody has given those reports to anybody.
09:31So that apart from the cabinet considering it and debating it.
09:35And as you know, the Congress party has MLAs, all of them who are committed to social justice.
09:41And I'm sure that they will hold that primary to everything else.
09:45So if at all they have any concerns, they will certainly debate it and they will discuss it and they will also bring forth the concerns of their respective communities.
09:54And I'm sure the government is wise enough and quite sagacious enough to be able to make the right decision.
10:01And ultimately the thing is that the society has to be taken the way it is.
10:06And nobody can put in their imagination, hallucination, whatever to just think that, you know, the things are the way they think it is.
10:13If at all there is some truth that would come out, which is going to benefit the large number of people, I'm sure everybody in the Congress party is going to be committed to it.
10:22But keeping that in mind, it is natural for people to feel a little ruffled and what do you say, unsettled with these reports.
10:32So certainly that they will express their angst and concern and anxiety.
10:38So the government is taking the right step.
10:41It's not saying that it's going to unilaterally, you know, in an authoritative way, implement it and, you know, cause a lot of, what do you say, concern.
10:51But let me tell you, and this is not going to just affect the Congress party.
10:55It's going to affect the other parties too, because it's about the people of Karnataka.
10:59It's not just about the congressmen.
11:01So you have to keep that in mind very clearly.
11:04You know, I'll ask you one quick question, Mr. Thimaya, because you still have some time.
11:08And that stems from the fact, why rake it up right now if it doesn't serve your chief minister, not the deputy, but the chief minister politically?
11:16Why bring in something that you could have possibly tabled 10 years ago?
11:19Because this report is 10 years old.
11:21This survey is 10 years old.
11:22Why now?
11:23Why is the timing so contentious?
11:24I'll give you one minute, sir.
11:25One minute.
11:26Go ahead.
11:27Make your point.
11:27The leadership of the party has been insisting on this for a long time.
11:31And if you know that the national leadership of the party, the high command also has been wanting this to be, what do you say, discussed at least.
11:39And, you know, the right equitable, what do you say, distribution to happen.
11:44And because, you know, the Congress party is heavily dependent on the favor, the grace and also the support of the backward classes, because whatever that we have done also.
11:54And see, you know, on many, many occasions, people have accused of being, you know, totally perhaps, you know, like the way we are accused that even to the extent of being lopsided in our approach towards the backward classes and the minorities and so on.
12:08And it is natural for the BJP also to feel quite unsettled about this, because, you know, it's going to cause a lot of concern to them.
12:16But let me tell you, and this has nothing to do with Mr. Sidrama's politics or whatever, this had to happen.
12:21And today, the kind of majority we have, if we don't do this, when else will we do?
12:26Well, you know, I would reckon you do it in the first year itself, where you take oath because your entire, one second, your entire campaign, your entire, I'll come back to you, sir.
12:35I'll circle back to you.
12:35Allow me to bring in the BJP spokesperson, because your entire campaign in Lok Sabha was around the, you know, caste census.
12:42It was all about social equity.
12:45You could have done it earlier.
12:46So really, you know, the question does prevail.
12:48Why now?
12:49It was Telangana actually came up earlier, conducted a survey and tabled it way earlier than you did.
12:55So the timing is going to be questioned, sir, whether you like it or not.
12:58I want to bring in the BJP spokesperson, Surabhi Hodegrer.
13:02Surabhi, the fact is, you know, why so much dissent?
13:06Because it seems this is a ticking time bomb for the Congress itself.
13:10Why don't you just sit back and watch the show?
13:12First, I'd like to answer the Congress spokesperson's, you know, reference to speculation, conspiracy theories, etc.
13:22None of these, on the basis of the timing as to why this has come up now, none of these comments on why the timing sounds so suspicious is being made from anybody in the opposition.
13:32It's being made from people within your own party.
13:35And the same people, yes, they could have gone to the cabinet meeting.
13:38They could have gone to the chief minister and told them about their, you know, inconveniences or their thoughts and processes.
13:43But today we're seeing in Karnataka every single minister having a divergent opinion than what the Congress is saying through its government.
13:50So, let me make it very clear that none of this is speculation or conspiracy theory coming from the public or the opposition.
13:57It is coming from within your own party.
13:59To answer your question, Preeti, this is not merely about politics or, hey, look, we're the opposition.
14:04We're going to oppose everything that the government is going to do.
14:06No, this deals with the seven crore Karnataka, seven crore people of Karnataka, whose livelihoods, whose jobs and employment, education, all of this is in question when it comes to reservation and categorization of different opportunities.
14:18So, of course, we're going to be asking the question.
14:20And the question that we're asking here is that this is not a scientific report.
14:26And how can you table such an unscientific report to just give you some instances as to where we're seeing manipulation of data, whether it's the manipulation of caste names, whether it is fragmentation of different castes.
14:37For example, even Bokkaligas have been, you know, fragmented as Goudas, Bunts, where it's all known that these are all together.
14:44Or it's the overestimation and a very unfair categorization of our SC, ST brethren.
14:50In Karnataka, 49 STs are categorized as well as 101 SCs.
14:54But that number has been inflated as well.
14:56So, all of these things put a question.
14:58Why have you brought forth an unscientific survey?
15:02Not a census.
15:03Let me remind you that.
15:04A survey.
15:05And the popular narrative that's going on, not just from the public, not just from the opposition, is people don't remember being surveyed.
15:13This is completely working against the Congress.
15:16All right.
15:16I want to bring back Sandeep Shastri into this conversation.
15:20Sandeep Shastri, you know, one thing is also, you know, it's a, it's a, the irony of all of this is,
15:25because we still don't publicly have the numbers of the survey.
15:28It's a leaked report.
15:29There's enough politics around it.
15:31But the question I want to ask you, Sandeep Shastri, is that this is a Pandora's box for the Congress.
15:35And if they open it, it could be self-deprecative in a number of ways.
15:39And we can already see that.
15:43Riti, to start off, I think the leak is so porous and transparent that I wonder whether it's a leak in terms of what is today in the public domain.
15:51Now, I think we need to look at important political implications of what the Congress leadership in the government is attempting through this.
16:03Let's remember that in the past also, caste censors, caste reservation has been used by governments at critical moments.
16:11Remember, VP Singh announcing Mandal Commission report just as they were facing a confidence vote.
16:17So, caste censors and caste-related issues have always been critical for leaders to leave a stamp of themselves in the politics of the state or the politics of the country.
16:30So, I think that has to be kept in mind.
16:32The mere debate on the caste survey does not indicate that the caste survey's findings are going to be implemented.
16:43It is just you have let the cat out among the pigeons in terms of a discussion to happen.
16:49But I think this discussion also has a detrimental effect on all parties because it brings out the inner party dissensions in parties.
16:58And let's remember, as I said earlier, the Vokalikas and Lingayat MLAs account for a majority of the population of MLAs.
17:06And on this issue, it's quite likely that across parties, the MLAs of these two communities would come together.
17:13So, I think it goes beyond party politics and goes to the finer nuances of caste politics in the state.
17:21All right. Okay. I want to go back to the, you know, Congress spokesperson in all of this.
17:27You know, the fact is this leaked survey and, you know, we can give out the numbers there as well.
17:33It doesn't quite really matter.
17:34Mr. Thimaya serves the Chief Minister Siddharamaya because somewhere down the line it will help him consolidate his own Ahinda vote ban.
17:43But will be counterproductive when you look at the Vokalikas, the Lingayat support which comes in for the Congress.
17:49So, therefore, the question, it's counterproductive where the Congress is concerned.
17:54And I'll give you an example why, which you say the, you know, top leadership wanted it.
17:59You had Mr. Khadge who was asked about the caste, you know, survey in Karnataka and he distanced himself from it.
18:05He really wants nothing to do with it.
18:07So, really, I don't see it coming in from the top brass of the Congress.
18:10It's seemingly stemming more from the Chief Minister's office.
18:13Okay, when I spoke about the speculation and I did not mention conspiracy, but when I spoke about speculation, it was basically about people like you yourself said that we still don't have the report.
18:25I don't have the report.
18:26We are just going by the newspaper report.
18:28So, I called it speculation.
18:30It's not about the BJP doing the speculation or whatever it is.
18:33I've been very careful about that.
18:34And there is no conspiracy that I'm alluding here.
18:39But let me tell you very clearly, like Mr. Shastri said, this is not going to affect only the Congress, but also the BJP.
18:47Because I'm sure the BJP's concern will be far more than Congress's.
18:52Because, you know, I mean, they are seen as an upper caste party, which they are certainly trying to make inroads into the backward classes and all.
18:59But predominantly, you know, that the kind of support that they've been getting and from where it is coming.
19:03And so, certainly that, you know, if at all you see that the numbers are actually small and the other classes have a bigger numbers.
19:10I'm not saying this is like the final thing, like Mr. Shastri said too, and nobody can just arbitrarily implement it.
19:18This is like, he has called it like the catapult of pigeons.
19:21But I say that this is like a sort of food for thought.
19:25Because I think a society should be dynamic and you should be having these things.
19:29Because otherwise, the society becomes stagnated and nothing moves at all.
19:33And things stay the way they are for centuries.
19:37And things have to change. Such data has to come out.
19:40Let's correct the data.
19:41I'm sure that Mr. Sidramaya, whatever that you may allege it to be, but he is a very wise politician.
19:47He also knows how he would go down, what do you say, in time, as how he is going to be seen.
19:55But if at all people say that it's going to be advantageous to him, I'm sure that even other politicians are also quite clever.
20:00They do know how this is going to pan out.
20:03But let me tell you, the people too are quite clever.
20:05And I'm sure the people who voted for Congress is not, are not going to complicate this matter to actually, you know, make it difficult for the Congress party.
20:14But let me tell you, if at all you say that just because it's going to be inconvenient for some parties, that if at all you're going to stop these things from happening.
20:21I think that's...
20:22Okay, I want to...
20:23So, okay.
20:24So, Rubi, is this inconvenience for the BJP?
20:27That's what, you know, it's inconvenient right now, especially on how the social groups stack up in this particular survey.
20:34Which, again, I would say many, even within the Congress, Mr. Thamaya, are calling it unscientific in nature on how it was conducted.
20:43The inconvenience is not being voiced from the BJP.
20:47The inconvenience is being voiced from people within the Cabinet and within the Congress party.
20:52Let me remind the Congress spokesperson here that we are very proud of the fact that we have an OBC person as a Prime Minister.
21:01I don't like to go by that definition, but that's the matter of the fact.
21:04Because when you tell us we are a forward caste party, that is very insinuating.
21:08I can say that the Congress is a, you know, a party that appeases significantly.
21:12But please do not make such comments about the BJP.
21:14I did not make such comments.
21:16Please listen to my words.
21:17Sir, please allow her to finish.
21:18Go ahead, now.
21:19Make your point.
21:20You did.
21:21Let me complete my point.
21:23My point being here is that the BJP has constantly been, you know, let's do the caste survey.
21:28Of course, a society is changing.
21:30Fair representation, social justice must be in order.
21:33But do not do a survey based on unscientific methodology, unscientific data.
21:38Do not do it in 2015 and then release it in 2025.
21:41Do not do it and, you know, not release it to the public, not have discussion about it.
21:46And push it around in such a way that it only benefits your internal political situation.
21:52Because that is what the people of Karnataka are waking up and reading in the news today.
21:55If truly, truly, you know, the Congress party wants to put forth the reservation based on true numbers, let us do it in a scientific manner.
22:04Why overestimate certain communities and underestimate a few more?
22:08Why would you do that?
22:09Why categorize and where, where do not, you know, there are language based classifications within the caste survey.
22:15That we have seen in the leaked version.
22:17What is this, all of this based on?
22:19There are caste rankings on basis of education and socio-economic factors.
22:23What are those rankings based on?
22:25Yes, we don't have the entire report.
22:27This is all based on the leaks that the government itself has leaked.
22:30But tell me, is that not fair for discussion?
22:32Is that not something that we must be discussing?
22:35Have a proper, do a scientific, you know, methodology oriented survey.
22:40And then we will have a conversation about it.
22:42Please let us not go into these conversations about, is it politically?
22:46You know, I'm going to, we're not taking any time on now.
22:49Just, you know, the last five minutes that I have, I just want to bring in all of you one by one.
22:53And Sandeep Shastri, the fact is, if you look at, you know, the 2023 State Assembly elections,
22:58and correct me if I'm wrong, sir, I would reckon 49% of Vokal Liga support actually went to the Congress.
23:03So that was a huge shift.
23:0523% of Lingayats went to the Congress.
23:07So, why is the Congress doing this at this point of time, you know, many would suggest is counterproductive.
23:15On the other hand, when tickets now, when, you know, tickets need to be given,
23:19the new combinations would be very, very different.
23:21Because, you know, how do you give the same amount of tickets on what you've been doing,
23:25where your influential leaders from each community are concerned?
23:28Priti, you are very right in saying that the Congress won 2023 is stitching together a rainbow coalition.
23:36It got support from the Lingayats.
23:38The Vokal Liga vote saw a three-way split.
23:42And, of course, they got a significant chunk of non-dominant OVC vote.
23:46Why are they trying it out now at this stage of their term?
23:50I think we need to look at the political calculations which is there for leaders at this point of time.
23:57How leaders are locating themselves as part of the wider debate in terms of jockeying for places and positions
24:05and also maybe looking at how they would be looked at in history.
24:11So, that factor, as I said right in the beginning, Sidramaya has a particular political message and a backdrop.
24:21He has seen as an Ahinda leader.
24:23He would like to, during this term, as Chief Minister, do what he can for the community he represents.
24:31And, in a sense, the attempt is to try and see that the backward caste, as he would put it, has their due.
24:39But, it is producing the backlash from the other groups.
24:44And, given the fact that those other groups are also prominent in the Congress, it creates a challenge for the party.
24:51You know, just one final word, final submissions, Mr. Thimaya and Surabhi.
24:55Mr. Thimaya, please go, the Congress spokesperson.
24:58See, like, I did not say that the BJP is a party of our classes.
25:02But, that's actually something I think Shumaswami said.
25:05But, let me tell you, if at all, today that you are reacting like this, because the numbers are different from what you expected.
25:12And, if at all, this report has been talked about for the past 10 years.
25:17And, you suddenly, today you realize that it was an unscientific report, because it's not very favorable to you.
25:22And, you know, it should have been done the way you wanted it to be, so the numbers could have been punched to your benefit.
25:29I think that is something that nobody could accept.
25:32Because, it was talked about.
25:34And, if at all, you had such concerns, you could have gone to the court, wherever.
25:37You could have stopped this report from coming out.
25:39Because, you were so sure that this was an unscientific report that was being put together only for the benefit of the Congress party.
25:45You know, there were so many other governments that actually came to power in between.
25:49But, they also did not bother about it.
25:51Because, you know, I am sure that everybody knew what was in there.
25:55Okay.
25:56And, you know, they conveniently ignored it.
25:58But, let me tell you, we just have to look at the interests of people of Karnataka.
26:02And, it's going to be talked about.
26:03I am running out of time.
26:04One last time.
26:05Make your point.
26:06BJP too is quite concerned about it.
26:09And, a lot of people are airing the agreement.
26:10But, concern is understandable.
26:11But, it's not being reported.
26:12Mr. Zimaya, concern is understandable.
26:14But, 10 years late.
26:15You know, for example, India would conduct surveys every 10 years.
26:20This report, even if it was scientifically conducted, the survey is defunct by now.
26:26Because, it's 10 years.
26:27That we should talk to the government.
26:28I certainly would do my own research.
26:31Because, it was a survey that the state conducted, sir.
26:34That's why I am saying.
26:35It's a survey that the state conducted, which you didn't table at that time.
26:38You are trying to table a survey which is 10 years late.
26:41The OTM has very clearly said that the ministers have to study the survey and give their opinion.
26:45But, let's say it's scientific in nature.
26:50But, it's 10 years old.
26:52The country itself should conduct a census.
26:54I am talking about a census.
26:55Not even surveys every 10 years.
26:56You have a point in there.
26:58But, I am not running the government.
26:59So, the report is defunct in any case.
27:01Why are we looking at data which was collaborated 10 years ago?
27:05And, then make reservation on those grounds.
27:08It makes no sense.
27:09But, alright.
27:09Final submission.
27:10Surabhi, go ahead.
27:12No, you're...
27:12Mr. Deepak Simtimae, sir.
27:14With all due respect, you're not running the government.
27:16But, you're defending it.
27:17And, this is where the Congress party is getting it wrong here in Karnataka.
27:20The Congress is speaking in one tone.
27:22And, the government is speaking in another.
27:23The report is 10 years old.
27:25Yes.
27:26The BJP government came, you know, between this.
27:28The reason it was not accepted during the BJP time was because it was not even signed
27:32by the man who was responsible.
27:34The person whose name goes on the report.
27:36Mr. Kantaraju.
27:37There was always questions about its, you know, rigor.
27:40There were always questions that were raised from the BJP camp.
27:43The point that we're trying to tell you in the Congress over here is that if you're so keen
27:47on doing the caste survey and making sure that reservation and making sure opportunities
27:51are built on data and numbers, do it properly.
27:54Do it properly.
27:55Do not do it in a biased manner.
27:57Okay.
27:58That's all the time that we have for now.
27:59That's all the time that we have for now.
28:01I appreciate all three of you for joining us.
28:03Thank you there.
28:04We're going to end this bulletin.
28:05But, we're going to keep eye on all developments that are taking place.
28:08Because, understandably, it's an issue that at least one section, you know, not the entire
28:12Congress, one section of the Karnataka Congress want to keep on the boil.
28:17Let it simmer.
28:18Let it fester.
28:19Let it stew.
28:25All right.
28:26Let's begin with the news break coming in.
28:28The Bengal government's first report on the clashes that occurred in the riot in Murshidabad
28:33has been accessed.
28:35The Bengal government report suggests that the riot erupted without any official banner.
28:41Agitated mob had gathered near a mosque in an attempt to vandalize Hindu homes.
28:45Cops open fire in self-defense.
28:48That is the first draft, or at least the first report, of the Bengal police right now.
28:54Mind you, there has been friction where the center and the state is concerned.
28:58The state now has released, or the first report of what really went down of the state has been accessed,
29:05where the state report seems to suggest that this entire mob gathered outside a mosque
29:13and there was an attempt to vandalize Hindu homes and the police.
29:16Then the West Bengal police, Murshidabad police, was coerced into opening fire in self-defense.
29:24All right.
29:24With that news break, let's quickly move on to our big focus of the day,
29:29and that came in from the top court of the country.
29:32The Supreme Court today did not stay the WACF law,
29:36but passed an injunction, at least, on two of the most contentious provisions of the law.
29:44What does it mean?
29:45Can it be seen as an interim setback for the government?
29:49Take a look.
29:52Top court steps in on WACF law.
29:56Interim setback for government.
30:00Injunction on WACF's contentious provisions in new law.
30:04The Supreme Court has said that the Central WACF council and the State WACF board will not be constituted.
30:12WACF by user cannot be deleted.
30:16Now, there are other provisions also, which we as a party have come to the Honorable Supreme Court,
30:22that calling it unconstitutional.
30:25This is not reform.
30:28It is retaliation in the guise of reform.
30:32It is retaliation meticulously scripted, strategically timed, and constitutionally questionable.
30:43The WACF Amendment Act is not an exercise in efficiency, as it pretends to be.
30:51While the Supreme Court refused to grant an interim stay on the WACF Amendment Act 2025,
30:58the status quo on certain contentious provisions of the new law are being seen as a setback to the government.
31:07Interim setback 1.
31:08The top court directed that there would be no alteration in the character of any WACF property,
31:16including those registered as declared under the practice of WACF by user.
31:23WACF by user is land used by Muslim religious or charitable purpose for a long period of time.
31:30It is deemed to be WACF property, even if it was not registered as one.
31:36Nearly half of the 8 lakh odd WACF properties in India are WACF by user.
31:43The Supreme Court noted such properties would not be denotified as WACF by user for now,
31:50which was proposed by the new WACF Amendment law.
31:54The court ordered that all WACF properties, regardless of how they were classified,
32:00must be preserved in their current state until the next hearing.
32:04There were concerns expressed by the top court over the WACF by user provision in the new law,
32:10which said if the district collector identified any WACF by user property as government land,
32:17it would seize or be denotified as WACF property till a court determined its status.
32:24The Supreme Court was of the view that a court should decide that
32:30and that WACF by user denotification should not happen before that.
32:36Interim setback 2.
32:39The top court told the government that non-Muslims won't be appointed to central WACF councils
32:45and the state WACF boards.
32:47The Supreme Court made the union government assure
32:50that no appointment of non-Muslims to the WACF council and board would be made till the next date,
32:57which is 5th May.
32:59It also directed that no new appointments be made to any WACF board during this period.
33:05The Centre assured the Supreme Court that no WACF properties will be denotified
33:10till the next date of hearing on 5th May 2025.
33:14This means that disputed WACF land cannot be touched.
33:19This means the government cannot take land claimed by WACF.
33:23It also means that even disputed land cannot be taken by the government.
33:29The petitioners, many of which are opposition parties, are claiming interim victory,
33:34while the government now has seven days to file a preliminary response with relevant documents.
33:41Bureau Report, India Today.
33:46In all of this, viewers, do underline the term interim
33:49because the next hearing is on the 5th of May.
33:53Well, with all that has taken place till now,
33:55on just the basis of that, there are certain questions that we asked this evening.
33:59Can this be read as an interim setback to the centre?
34:03The other question that we asked, injunction on contentious provisions.
34:09Because there have been two contentious provisions
34:12where there has seemingly been a stay on the injunction
34:15on these two contentious provisions, a win for petitioners.
34:19And ultimately, with what most petitioners are reading it,
34:25the injunction on law provisions mean
34:27that the top court recognises Merrill in case against the law.
34:32Let's take these questions right now to our panellists this evening.
34:35Joining me, Radhika Khera, National Spokesperson, BJP,
34:39Arshadeep Khadial, National Spokesperson, Congress.
34:41Before we go to our political panellists,
34:43I would like to bring in my colleague, Nalini,
34:45who is getting us the latest from the courts, our court reporter.
34:50Nalini, take us through on what really happened in court,
34:53what could be the implications of it,
34:55can be seen as a setback to the government,
34:58what does the injunctions on two of its most contentious provisions mean?
35:04Well, Priti, it's definitely a setback to the government
35:06because if you remember,
35:08the Solicitor General, Tushar Mehta,
35:10as well as the government,
35:12had tried their very best to try and ensure
35:14that no interim order is passed in this case
35:19yesterday or today.
35:22Yesterday, they'd asked for time till today
35:24to go ahead and place their arguments before the court.
35:28And today, they've asked for additional time of one week
35:31to place their preliminary arguments before the court.
35:33But at the same time,
35:34the Supreme Court's categorically said
35:36that the interim order will be issued.
35:38And that's exactly what they've done
35:39during the course of the hearing today.
35:40So even though time has been given to the government
35:43to file that response within one week,
35:44but during the meantime,
35:45the CJS made it clear
35:46that he does not want any drastic changes on the ground,
35:50which means that to as far as possible,
35:52SWOMOTO must be maintained
35:54until the time that the Supreme Court
35:56is looking into this matter.
35:57So even though this stays only till the 5th of May,
36:00till the next date of hearing,
36:01but it comes in as a huge relief to the petitioners
36:04because all of their most major concerns
36:06that they'd highlighted before the Supreme Court yesterday,
36:09the Supreme Court has ensured
36:10that they feel that their rights are protected
36:12and it's a balance of equities.
36:14It's exactly what CJS Sanjeev Kanna said
36:16that he will do yesterday.
36:18He has done exactly that today through this order.
36:20It's a balance of equities
36:21where there are certain provisions
36:22that the government is allowed to enforce
36:24after the act has been notified in the official Gazette.
36:27But at the same time,
36:28certain contentious provisions
36:30that were the main point of concern
36:32for the petitioners,
36:33the Supreme Court has asked the government
36:35to hold their hands,
36:36at least for now.
36:37This obviously pertains to the inclusion
36:38of non-Muslim members into the boards
36:40as well as denotification of these wakf properties.
36:43So, two major concerns by the petitioners
36:45have been assuaged by the Supreme Court
36:47which means that the Supreme Court
36:48is going to be looking into the matter further.
36:50It's not going to go to the high court
36:52like they were originally planning
36:53and it remains to be seen
36:55exactly what happens now
36:56when the centre officially files its affidavit
36:58before the Supreme Court
36:59and on what grounds they are able to defend
37:01the constitutionality of the Wakf Amendment Act.
37:04Nalani, for the benefit of our viewers,
37:06would you be able to break it down
37:08on layman's terms,
37:09what it really means
37:10of these two contentious provisions
37:12and an injunction on both
37:13where it tantamounts
37:15to the denotification of wakf property
37:18and of course non-Muslims on board.
37:21Yes, Priti.
37:22In fact, the first provision
37:23that talks about denotification
37:25of the properties,
37:26the centre had specifically assured
37:28the Supreme Court
37:28that no registered property,
37:31whether it's registered by a deed
37:32or it's notified as a wakf
37:34by user property,
37:36no registered and notified property
37:37will be denotified by the centre.
37:40Now, originally,
37:41what the Act was saying
37:44was that any property
37:45that's wakf by user
37:46that does not have
37:47the proper documentation in place,
37:49that does not have
37:50the proper papers,
37:51can in fact be denotified
37:53as a wakf property.
37:54And that was a main concern
37:55that the petitioners
37:56had raised in the hearing yesterday,
37:58where they've spoken about
37:59there are so many mosques,
38:01there are masjids,
38:01there are monuments,
38:02there are so many properties
38:04that are being used
38:05as the wakf properties
38:06simply by virtue of the fact
38:08that they are wakfs
38:09and they don't have
38:10a proper documentation in place.
38:12So, it's important
38:12that these are not denotified,
38:14which is exactly
38:15what CJ Sanjeev Khanna
38:16also told the centre.
38:17The second main contention
38:19was regarding inclusion
38:20of non-Muslim members
38:21within the wakf board
38:22and the wakf council.
38:24Now, what the petitioners
38:25had told the Supreme Court
38:26is that you don't see
38:27this in any other religious body.
38:28In fact, the idea
38:29of a Muslim being part
38:31of an administrative body
38:32that's running say a Hindu temple
38:34or a Sikh gurudwara
38:35is unfathomable,
38:37which is what the petitioners
38:38had argued
38:39and the Supreme Court said
38:40that although there are
38:41statutory regulations
38:42on all religious bodies
38:44regarding religious endowments,
38:46but at the same time
38:47it seems there is
38:47some prima facie value
38:49to the argument
38:50made by the petitioners
38:51that non-Muslims
38:52should not be allowed.
38:53So, even though yesterday
38:54the centre had assured
38:55the Supreme Court
38:56that it won't be more than
38:57two non-Muslim members
38:59part of these bodies,
39:00the Supreme Court has said
39:01categorically,
39:01to not add any non-Muslims
39:04at least till the next
39:05date of hearing
39:05so that the concerns
39:06of the petitioners
39:07can be assuaged.
39:08You know, you've already
39:08addressed it, Nalini,
39:10the sheer fact that
39:11the Supreme Court
39:11will continue to hear it
39:12but yesterday the top court
39:14had said that they could
39:15transfer the case
39:17to a high court.
39:17So, that's not happening now.
39:19It's going to be the top court
39:19which hears the case.
39:21Yes, absolutely.
39:22That was an idea
39:23that was entertained
39:23by the Supreme Court
39:24right at the very beginning
39:25whether or not
39:26the case should be transferred
39:27to the high court.
39:28But today by officially
39:29issuing notice
39:30to the government
39:30by officially issuing
39:32this interim audit
39:33it's clear that
39:33the Supreme Court
39:34will only be looking
39:35into this matter
39:35and the main reason
39:36for that can also be
39:38because once there's
39:39other provisions
39:40of this act
39:41are brought into force
39:42there is a very strong
39:43likelihood that
39:44petitions against that
39:45will be filed
39:46in various high courts
39:47across the country.
39:48So, if the Supreme Court
39:49is hearing the matter
39:49all the matters
39:50can then be taken up
39:51by the Supreme Court
39:52the Supreme Court
39:53can be the final arbiter
39:54about what needs
39:54to be done in this case.
39:56Well, the court also said
39:57that they're going to
39:57pick five petitions
39:59and dismiss the others
40:00because they cannot
40:01really hear all of them.
40:02I appreciate
40:02Nalini for you
40:03taking the time out
40:04joining us
40:04giving us a lowdown
40:05let's cut across
40:06to our political panelists
40:07because viewers
40:08A, there's a political
40:10fallout of it all
40:11and understandably
40:12a lot of petitioners
40:13in this case
40:13are political parties
40:15as well.
40:16I have with me
40:17Radhika Khera
40:18National Spokesperson
40:19BJP
40:19Aushdeep Kadyal
40:20National Spokesperson
40:21Congress
40:21The Congress is also
40:23one of the petitioners
40:23in Supreme Court
40:24wanting that the bill
40:26be struck down
40:26that hasn't quite happened
40:28because the court
40:29has seen merit
40:30where the
40:32Vakf law
40:33is concerned
40:34but
40:35Radhika Khera
40:36the sheer fact
40:37that one can call it
40:38a stay
40:39you can call it
40:40an injunction
40:40on two of the most
40:42contentious provisions
40:43seem to suggest
40:45right now
40:45that the top court
40:46of the country
40:47sees merit
40:48in the case
40:49that the petitioners
40:50have filed.
40:52Good evening to all
40:53let's be crystal clear
40:54this is A
40:55not a win
40:55for the petitioners
40:56and B
40:57it is not a blow
40:57to the government
40:58the Supreme Court
40:59has not stayed the act
41:01and they have refused
41:02to strike it down
41:02they have simply said
41:04that facts need to be examined
41:05documents must be studied
41:06and this is the
41:07constitutional due process
41:08and not a judicial
41:09condemnation
41:10so when you have people
41:11saying oh this is
41:12this victory
41:13and that victory
41:13that has not happened
41:14number two
41:16this is not the
41:17Congress style
41:17government
41:18that we
41:19where laws were passed
41:20in Parliament
41:20by day and reverse
41:21by night
41:22and this is also not
41:22Shah Bhanu 2.0
41:24where the court
41:24was slapped down
41:25to obese radical clerics
41:27this is the Modi government
41:28the BJP government
41:29where we respect the court
41:30and the court respects
41:31the constitution
41:32and the government in power
41:33we are not
41:34the Rajiv Gandhi government
41:35that reversed
41:36the orders of the Supreme Court
41:38and we are unlike
41:38Rahul Gandhi
41:39who publicly calls out
41:40the Supreme Court
41:41attacks the judges
41:42defames them
41:43and then the court
41:44has to go and apologize
41:45like I said
41:46we respect the court
41:47and the court respects us
41:48having said that
41:49I would also like
41:50to clarify here
41:51how then we thank the court
41:53for taking note of this
41:55that mobs have been incited
41:57by various political groups
41:59and religious groups
42:00and they have encouraged
42:01violence across West Bengal
42:03which is very shameful
42:04if you have an issue
42:06with something
42:06that does not mean
42:07you answer it with violence
42:08and we are thankful
42:09for the court
42:10to raise that out
42:11and also let's not forget
42:12the things that you
42:14spoke about also as well
42:15now we have only asked
42:17for time
42:18for seven days
42:18because there are lots
42:19of facts that need
42:20to be given
42:20and lots of facts
42:22with proof
42:22and it's not a very small thing
42:24there are n number
42:25of properties
42:26that belong to
42:27different religious
42:29temples
42:31and you have
42:32gurdwaras
42:33and churches
42:34which the VUX board
42:35is taking claim on
42:36so the government
42:37is going to come back
42:38with proper proofs
42:39and as also
42:41those petitioners
42:42over 120 petitioners
42:44are there
42:44whether it's the congress
42:45and what is going to be
42:46out there to see
42:47is that the so-called people
42:48that we are the people
42:49whether it is
42:51the congress
42:52the Sapa
42:52the Mamta Banerjee
42:53your time is up
42:55Pradhika Kira
42:55I'll circle back
42:56I'll circle back to you
42:58your time is up
42:58two minutes each
42:59but you spoke of
43:00that you're not a government
43:01that reverses court orders
43:03I'll just you know
43:04remind you
43:04on the ordinance
43:06that was passed
43:07which reversed
43:08the supreme court order
43:09on the Delhi Services Act
43:10so that has
43:11that happened exactly
43:12two and a half years ago
43:13yeah but we didn't do
43:14something to
43:15I'm just telling you
43:16I am just
43:17I'll circle back to you
43:19you recounted
43:20I just
43:20we didn't do it
43:22to stand by
43:23and please
43:23some radical elements
43:24for our vote bank
43:25please
43:25do not match it with this
43:28what happened to Shah Bano
43:30was horrible
43:31and I'm sure you agree
43:32with that also
43:32what the Rajiv Gandhi
43:33government back then
43:34did was not
43:35just to please the vote bank
43:36you know
43:37one second
43:37Radhika Kira
43:38your time is up
43:39it's not an argument
43:40between you and I
43:41that's fine
43:41you can shut me down
43:43you made a point
43:44allow me to answer that
43:46right
43:46you made a point
43:47you say we are not a government
43:48that reverses court orders
43:49don't compare apples to oranges
43:51don't compare apples to oranges
43:52don't compare apples to oranges
43:53I just reminded you of
43:53I just reminded you of
43:55I'm reminding you as well
43:55don't compare apples to oranges
43:56I'm sorry
43:57if you are going to
43:58if you have a problem
44:00can I just get your fader down
44:01you can mute me
44:02I will
44:03so now hear me out
44:04you said
44:05you said
44:05it was you Radhika Kira
44:07who said
44:08that you are not a government
44:09that reverses court orders
44:11I just gave you an example
44:12of one you did
44:12that's it
44:13simple
44:14you reversed a supreme court order
44:15which
44:16there were
44:17and passed in ordinance
44:18on the Delhi Services Act
44:19that's it
44:20period
44:20I want to just bring in now
44:22Ashdeep Kadhyal
44:22your two minutes
44:23Ashdeep Kadhyal
44:23will begin now
44:24the fact is
44:25Radhika Kira had a point there
44:27where she made the
44:28what was the petition on
44:30is to strike down
44:31the VACF law
44:32clearly
44:33the top court of the country
44:35sees merit
44:36in this law
44:37says there are a lot of provisions
44:39that have merit
44:40they're not going to strike down
44:41the law
44:42right now
44:43the contentious provisions
44:45and injunction is there
44:46but that is also interim
44:47all only till
44:49the 5th of May
44:50we don't know
44:51what the future brings
44:52in this case
44:53tad bit early to celebrate
44:55not at all
44:57in fact
44:57if our case
44:59did not have
45:00any basis to it
45:01it would have been dismissed
45:02on the very first date
45:04however because
45:04it had basis to it
45:06the centre has been asked
45:07to respond within a week
45:09they'll have to file
45:10a status report
45:11and second
45:12interim stay
45:13has been granted
45:14on two very important issues
45:16now the Bhati Janda Party's
45:18government
45:18will not be able
45:20to constitute
45:21the central
45:22Vakaf Council
45:22or the state
45:23Vakaf Council
45:24they will not be able
45:25to denotify
45:26the Vakaf properties
45:28and the buy user concept
45:30will stay
45:31it cannot be deleted
45:32as of now
45:33number two
45:34if only the Vakaf Janda Party's
45:36government had not shown
45:37tearing hurry
45:38in this matter
45:38and they would have
45:39discussed
45:40deliberated
45:40and consulted
45:41the stakeholders
45:42this would have not
45:43been necessary
45:44but the fact of the matter
45:45is that the Vakaf Act
45:47violates article 14
45:48violates 25
45:49article 26
45:5029
45:5130
45:52and 246
45:54that's one
45:55it violates minority rights
45:56it violates the federal structure
45:58it violates the constitution
46:00of India
46:00and we have all seen
46:01the Bhati Janda Party's
46:02demeanor towards
46:03Ambedkar Saab
46:03and the constitution
46:04made by Ambedkar Saab
46:05when the Home Minister
46:06says Ambedkar
46:07Ambedkar
46:08Ambedkar
46:08in the parliament
46:09in that fashion
46:09and despite that
46:10no action gets taken
46:11against him
46:12and then we also saw
46:13the solicitor general said
46:14he said that
46:15the stay
46:17ought not to be granted
46:18without us being heard
46:20because proper
46:21deliberations have happened
46:22that's exactly the case
46:23in the JPC
46:24no clause by clause
46:26discussion took place
46:27which always does
46:28however not done
46:29in this matter
46:29number 2
46:30in the parliament
46:31there were only 2 days
46:32given for a 450 page
46:34document
46:35it wasn't possible
46:36at all whatsoever
46:37for the parliament
46:38to have a clause by clause
46:39discussion either
46:40it was done on purpose
46:41number 3
46:41the by user concept
46:43which was brought about
46:43by the judiciary
46:44they have undermined
46:45the judiciary
46:46because this was brought
46:48over a very long span
46:49of time
46:49after a lot of experience
46:50a lot of discussions
46:51and the BJP is used
46:53to undermining the judiciary
46:53I want to ask them
46:55another thing
46:56what is the stand
46:57on the vice president
46:58making statement
46:59that article 146
47:01your fader is going to go down
47:03your time is up
47:03I am going to give both of you
47:04a minute and a half each
47:05to make your claim
47:06you can come back sir
47:07there is no point
47:07we can't hear you
47:08I will circle back to you
47:10I want to bring in
47:10Radhika Khera back
47:11into this conversation
47:12to make her final submissions
47:13because Radhika Khera
47:15you can use it
47:16to argue with me
47:16or you can continue
47:17making your point
47:18on how this is not
47:19an interim setback
47:20nobody is saying
47:21this is a setback
47:22at all
47:22nobody is even getting there
47:24but right now
47:25with the primer face
47:26it is an interim setback
47:28go ahead ma'am
47:28make your point
47:29well the congress spokesperson
47:31should not be lying publicly
47:32and taking Dr. Ambedkar Ji's name
47:34because they are the one
47:35who have been continuously
47:36defaming him
47:37and continuously insulting him
47:41the congress party
47:42stood together
47:43to ensure that Dr. Ambedkar
47:44loses his election
47:45and Dr. Ambedkar
47:46has always called for
47:47that there should be
47:48no reservation
47:48based on religion
47:49then why is the
47:50Carnatic congress government
47:51giving 4% reservation
47:52to Muslims
47:53you are yourself
47:54against the constitution
47:55you have amended
47:55the constitution
47:56over a hundred times
47:58so please do not take
47:59Dr. Ambedkar Ji's name
48:00over here
48:00secondly
48:01you are talking about
48:02that no stakeholders
48:03were spoken to
48:03well sir
48:03you are forgetting
48:04your own leader
48:05in parliament
48:06your own leader
48:07Mr. Pramod Tiwari
48:08went on to do
48:09a press conference
48:09from AICC
48:10and said
48:10what was the need
48:11to have a conversation
48:12in the middle of the night
48:13why were extra hours taken
48:15you had a problem
48:16you have said
48:16Rahul Gandhi
48:17you have said
48:17I can tell
48:17when you have said
48:19Rahul Gandhi
48:20was missing
48:20he refused to speak
48:22Priyanka Wadra
48:22refused to speak
48:23because of Kerala
48:24whatever reason
48:25Mrs. Gandhi refused to speak
48:26the government gave you
48:27ample of time
48:28and you did a press conference
48:29and said that
48:29why was the session extended
48:31it is unconstitutional
48:32to extend the session
48:33and even during JPC
48:34your leaders
48:35went on to throw glasses
48:37and it is your leaders
48:38who are calling
48:38to incite violence
48:39like Imran Muslim
48:40who say
48:41all of that
48:41all of that
48:41was in the parliament
48:42now it is act 2
48:44of the VAKF law
48:46it has already been
48:47made a law
48:48that was
48:49you know
48:49the journey of the parliament
48:50to the president
48:51now it is act 2
48:52it has been contended
48:52in court
48:53one minute
48:54Arshdeep Khadyal
48:55to make your submission
48:56go ahead
48:57thank you
48:58I would only request
49:00the Vati Jinta party
49:01to give an assurance
49:02on national TV
49:04that they will not
49:05be bypassing
49:06the supreme court's order
49:08like they have been
49:09doing back in the day
49:10whether it be
49:11at the time of
49:12Delhi services act
49:13whether it be
49:14at the time of
49:15the supreme court order
49:16which said that
49:17CJ is to be made
49:18a part of this
49:19election committee
49:20for election commission
49:20of India's appointment
49:21and another thing
49:23I want to ask
49:24their stance
49:25on the vice president's
49:26statement
49:26which says
49:27article 142
49:28has become
49:29a nuclear missile
49:31against democratic
49:32forces
49:33that is available
49:3424 into 7
49:35to the judiciary
49:36what does the
49:37Vati Jinta party
49:38have to say about that
49:39because we have seen
49:40the home minister's
49:41statement about
49:41Amrit Karsha
49:42when he uttered
49:44those words in the
49:44parliament
49:44and we have seen
49:45the VP's statement
49:46today
49:46we want to do
49:47what we're saying
49:48that's all the time
49:49that we have for now
49:49we're going to end it there
49:50once again viewers
49:51this is all interim
49:53whichever side of the
49:54divide you look at it
49:55from
49:55if you look at it
49:56as a setback
49:57for the government
49:58right now
49:58where the two
49:59contentious provisions
50:00are concerned
50:00it's only interim
50:01it's only till the
50:015th of May
50:02we don't know
50:03what happens
50:03on the 5th of May
50:05but trust India
50:06today to get you
50:07the ringside view
50:07and actually decoding
50:10what all of this
50:11legal jargon is about
50:12and we hope
50:13you help you well
50:14to get you
50:20to get you
50:20the ringside view
50:21and to get you
50:22to get you
50:22the ringside
50:22that we have
50:23to get you
50:24and to get you