Senior lawyer and Congress MP Abhishek Manu Singhvi on Friday called Vice President Jagdeep Dhankar's recent remarks on judiciary "unwarranted" and "unnecessary", while referring to the Supreme Court judgement with relation to Tamil Nadu Governor RN Ravi not taking any decisions on bills passed by the state Assembly and setting a deadline for the same.
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00:00All right, joining me right on top is Dr. Rabhishek Manu Singhvi.
00:03He's a fourth-term MP, eminent jurist, senior advocate, Supreme Court,
00:07also a member of the Congress, senior Congress leader.
00:11Also, importantly, viewers, he has been the lead counsel in this case
00:15where he represented the government of Tamil Nadu.
00:18Appreciate you taking the time out, Mr. Singhvi, and joining us.
00:21First up, there's been a fair amount of commentary, Mr. Singhvi,
00:24on if the Vice President was out of line.
00:27You know, many suggest it's a constitutional, largely a ceremonial post.
00:32Should he have made these comments?
00:35With the deepest and greatest respect and genuine respect to the Honorable Vice President,
00:41my answer is an emphatic no.
00:45He is the holder of high constitutional office,
00:48second in the warrant of precedence,
00:52and there is no occasion, no necessity, no requirement,
00:55no obligation to comment on all and sundry and issues like this.
01:00Does the President comment on this, Preeti?
01:04Have predecessor Vice Presidents commented routinely on such matters?
01:10Should the next person in the line of warrant of precedence,
01:13the Prime Minister, comment on such matters?
01:15My respectful answer is no.
01:18I think clearly, it was uncalled for, unwarranted, and unnecessary,
01:23before we come, of course, to the nitty-gritty of things like Article 142 and the case itself.
01:27But certainly, this was not…
01:30In fact, it is completely out of sync with the very high position
01:35which this is involved in the Vice President's post.
01:38Mr. Singhvi, you know, you had represented the Tamil Nadu government in the Supreme Court
01:44where you had argued that the governor's action violated the Constitution
01:47and in its verdict, the Supreme Court had held that Tamil Nadu's governor's reservation of 10 bills
01:52for President's assent is illegal and had used its extraordinary powers under Article 142.
01:58So, in this particular case, if you're going point by point,
02:01you had Mr. Jagdeep Dhankar, the Vice President,
02:03who actually stated, described Article 142 as, and I quote,
02:09nuclear missile against democratic forces,
02:12which allows the judiciary to act as a super parliament
02:15by enacting laws as seen in the case of Tamil Nadu.
02:19How do you respond to that characterization, Abhishek Manu Singhvi?
02:22Before I use my own adjectives to deal with those very colorful adjectives you've just quoted,
02:29you judge and your viewers judge for yourself.
02:33142, let's just stick to the law first.
02:35We'll come to the facts later.
02:37142 was not created yesterday.
02:38It was not created for this case.
02:40142 was created by persons far wiser than all of us put together,
02:45our constant assembly.
02:46It was created by Bhavasava Ambedkar and his drafting committee.
02:50It was created exclusively for the Supreme Court.
02:54It was deliberately and consciously stated not to be given to any other court in India,
02:59including any high court.
03:00The idea was that this is a sui generis, special, unique power
03:04to the apex court, who is the custodian of the trust of the entire nation,
03:09to do complete justice in very, very extreme cases
03:13or cases which deserve it from going beyond the mere letter of the law,
03:17to implement the spirit of the law.
03:20to do complete justice.
03:21Secondly, you must remember, Preeti,
03:23it is not an uncanalized power.
03:25It is not Jangala Raj.
03:27It is not chaotic.
03:28It is cribbed, canalized, circumscribed, conditioned
03:32by at least 20 to 40 major Supreme Court judgments
03:36over the 75-year-old journey.
03:38It is exercised on criteria laid down in those judgments.
03:41So, to suggest, all I can say is the missile is probably coming from elsewhere than the Supreme Court.
03:49The Supreme Court is exercising its constitutional power.
03:51When it strikes down law, when it strikes down executive action,
03:55when it strikes down governor's action,
03:57it routinely does it in 356, it is in Burmai.
04:01Can you call it a super parliament?
04:03I will come to the facts of this case and make good to you presently
04:07how, if at all there was an understatement of the law and the facts by the Supreme Court,
04:14everything said there was completely deserved.
04:16But as far as the law is concerned, I think this is clearly not justified language for a judgment.
04:26Dr. Singhvi, you know, the fact is, you were the lead counsel on this particular case.
04:31You've explained a bit on, you know, invoking section or article 142.
04:36On the other hand, what many suggest that possibly when it came down to the role of the governor,
04:43the top court was correct,
04:44but there has been a legal discourse which seems to suggest that when Mr. Dhankar objected to the court
04:50setting a three-month deadline to the president to act on bills claiming it undermines constitutional role.
04:57You know, that is a gray area.
05:01I will come to the president in a minute.
05:04The first primary question I ask myself and you and your viewers,
05:09none of these high constitutional authorities thought it right to comment on
05:13or chastise other constitutional authorities who sat on bills for one point, one and a quarter years.
05:20In the case of Tamil Nadu, you are now chastising the Supreme Court.
05:25Was it right or wrong for a governor neither to pass the bill,
05:29assent to it nor send it back?
05:31So, a decision not to decide became a decision.
05:34Now, look at the other step before I come to the president.
05:37In the first place, you don't decide.
05:39And in the first place, while it's pending with you, you do not also refer it to the president.
05:45The Tamil Nadu government goes to the court.
05:47Immediately, you send it back to the Tamil Nadu government.
05:49It requires the Tamil Nadu government to go to court for the governor to refer it back.
05:54When the Tamil Nadu government sends it a second time,
05:57you know that you are bound.
05:59So, you refer it to the president this time.
06:02Did when Baba Sahib said that institutions are only as good or bad as the governors or the persons or the man or woman who mans it,
06:10this is what he meant.
06:13The constitution can't tell the governor everything how to do it.
06:16It is the spirit which is being violated by high constitutional functionalities from Tamil Nadu to Bengal to Punjab
06:23and many other states.
06:25And it is happening particularly in opposition rule states where you are supposed to be the agent of the central government
06:31as if you are acting as some kind of a, you know, obstruction or barrier to governance.
06:38Now, let's come to the president.
06:40The structure of the articles of the constitution which deal with the assent to a bill by either the president or the governor
06:47are identical or almost identical.
06:51There is no difference.
06:52The only difference arises that the president cannot refer it further to a president.
06:56That is the difference with the governor.
06:59But as far as the time limit is concerned, if it is kosher to put a time limit for the governor,
07:05in what way is an article 142 misused if the same time limit is put for the president?
07:10It doesn't mean that the current president has done anything like that.
07:13As a matter of fact, with the current government, to imagine that the president would keep it pending
07:17for a year and a half would be unthinkable.
07:20But it is not unthinkable for an opposition to a state like Tamil Nadu.
07:24It is not unthinkable for states like West Bengal and Punjab.
07:27But in theory, why should a president sit on it?
07:31There is literally one more thing.
07:32The governor who was involved in these 10 bills or whatever, 11 bills, all the bills fell squarely in list 2,
07:40which is exclusive state competence.
07:43There was no reason to hold it or then to refer it.
07:46There were local matters like municipalities or sewerage or this and that.
07:49So, really, you know, it's the spirit of how you operate the constitution which matters.
07:55And when all this is happening under your nose with the governors,
07:59why are high constitutional functionaries not commenting adversely on that gubernatorial overreach
08:06instead of chastising the Supreme Court?
08:09And, you know, the office of governor was intended by Baba Sahib.
08:13He said, there can't be two swords in one scabbard.
08:16The chief minister is the governor of that state in terms of governance.
08:22And you can't obstruct his governance by keeping his spending.
08:25The same applies to the central government and the president.
08:29Yes, I agree that the deemed ascent is not written in the constitution.
08:34Yes, I agree that three months or two months is not written in the constitution.
08:37But if 142 is not used for this, what is 142 created for?
08:41Why did Baba Sahib and the Constitute Assembly give this power exclusively
08:45as a unique power to the Supreme Court?
08:47Only for such situations where governance has been obstructed and stopped
08:52by persons who are entrusted with governors.
08:55So, who will guard the guardians?
08:57Who will govern the governors?
08:58Only the Supreme Court.
09:01Dr. Singh, the last two questions that I'd ask you.
09:03You know, the Tamil Nadu judgment has been, A, hailed historic by some,
09:07unprecedented also by many.
09:10Do you think this judgment is somewhere down the line going to set a precedent
09:14for, or the word it will shape, the state and center relationship,
09:20especially where opposition-governed states are concerned?
09:22Before I answer your question, five seconds on the fact that people forget
09:27what meticulous research industry and comprehensiveness went into this judgment.
09:33The bench more than once gave us detailed queries, nuances, issues,
09:38sought opinion of all, including the Attorney General on our side,
09:41got researchers put on each of those issues.
09:44A lot of pain and effort went into this.
09:46It's not a casual thing on which casual comments can be made.
09:48Secondly, absolutely, yes, it is already a precedent.
09:52It's a judgment of the Supreme Court, which under Articles 141 and 142
09:56is fully binding on everybody in this country,
09:58including the highest constitutional authorities.
10:01And they are obliged to implement it in letter and spirit.
10:03That's what 141, Red with 142 means.
10:07Thirdly, it is a clear message.
10:10A somewhat delayed, much desired, much necessary,
10:16vitally necessary message to all governors.
10:19You are not supporting agents of the central government.
10:24You are not there to obstruct governance.
10:27You are not there as a parallel chief minister.
10:30You are there to aid and assist governance
10:33and be the overall friend, philosopher and guide
10:36instead of being two swords in one scabbard,
10:40two chief ministers in one state.
10:42I think that larger message is also implicit in the judgment.
10:46But I would strongly support every word and the industry
10:52and the care and the caution with judgment is written.
10:55And unfortunately, I think some strong words used,
10:58adjectives of judgment are completely uncalled for,
11:00unjustified and unnecessary.
11:01But the vice president, Dr. Singh, we did raise,
11:05which are shared by many,
11:07broader concerns about judicial accountability,
11:11you know, overreach or, you know, judicial activism.
11:15And on many accounts,
11:17be it the large hauls of cash that were found in a judge's house
11:20and the kind of action, you know, that was taken.
11:23Or even you've had the speaker or, you know,
11:26the former law minister Kiran Rajiju speak about
11:28the NJSE verdict or the colligium.
11:31So he has raised broader concerns,
11:33which many are speaking of today.
11:36First of all, with greatest respect,
11:39unfortunately, there is no connectivity
11:41in speaking in the same breath about this judgment
11:44and the episode involving Justice Verma.
11:49You can't begin to connect the North Pole and the South Pole
11:52for no reason at all.
11:53I don't understand how one reflects on the other
11:56in any remotest manner.
11:57It was equally inappropriate to link them.
11:59I'm saying so very clearly.
12:01Secondly, everybody knows that there is a procedure established,
12:05not created yesterday for you or me
12:06or for Justice Verma.
12:08An in-house procedure has been in operation for decades.
12:11It is under that procedure
12:12that the Chief Justice of India has taken steps.
12:15Three vice persons,
12:16two Chief Justice and one Lady Judge of Seniority
12:18are looking into it.
12:20The report will be out soon.
12:21Why should we suddenly change that procedure?
12:24Had that procedure not been followed by Yashwant Verma,
12:26is there any other law
12:26which the Honorable Vice President would want us to follow?
12:30How can you hearken to a system
12:33which is in existence being followed
12:35versus a non-existent system
12:38of no other system is available to do this?
12:40Yes, if you have,
12:41if you pass a law in future
12:42for these matters to go short of impeachment
12:45to the parliament,
12:46then that will be the law followed.
12:47In fact, I was chairman of a committee way back
12:49in 2011,
12:50a parliamentary standing committee
12:51which recommended the judicial accountability bill
12:55that never became law.
12:56But till such time,
12:57it's the only in-house procedure which will govern.
13:00And lastly,
13:01it is not the time and place
13:03because the whole comment was on the judgment.
13:05It has nothing to do with the Yashwant Verma episode.
13:08But let us not be,
13:11let us hasten slowly.
13:12Let us not use a push-button system
13:14that Yashwant Verma episode means push-button
13:17and lo and behold,
13:19by a magical wand,
13:20you have NJAC
13:21and all these hills vanish into thin air
13:24because of this magical wand called NJAC.
13:27Please don't use one to implement the other.
13:30Please don't use one to further some agenda
13:32which is other than relevant.
13:36All right, Dr. Singh,
13:37we appreciate you taking the time out
13:39and joining us this evening.
13:40Thank you there.