Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Bob discuss the psychological, spiritual, and emotional complexities of leadership failure within modern religious systems, especially those rooted in deliverance ministry culture. Drawing from personal experience, including their involvement in the rise of Kansas City Fellowship and later counseling roles, they reflect on the lack of accountability structures, the pursuit of affirmation and significance, and the dangers of narcissism in top-down church models. The conversation reveals how brokenness, inner struggles, and unresolved trauma often drive individuals into positions of leadership, where they are both idolized and isolated—making failure almost inevitable.
The conversation also addresses the broader cultural shifts in Christianity, including the rise and fall of megachurches, scandals from the 1980s to the present, and the recurring cycles of ministerial burnout and moral collapse. They critique the corporate church structure for fostering performance-driven personas disconnected from genuine community and accountability. Bob introduces the concept of “The Joseph Company” as a response to this crisis, working with leaders who have hit bottom and are seeking restoration. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of humility, teachability, and relational healing as the only sustainable path forward for both leaders and followers.
00:00 Introduction
01:09 Understanding Perspective Through Conflict and Feedback
06:06 Black-and-White Thinking and the Struggle for Moral Clarity
13:04 Bob’s Ministry Background and the Roots of Disillusionment
17:02 Scandals of the 1980s and the Human Side of Failure
23:07 The Real Reasons Leaders Enter Ministry
29:57 Deliverance Culture and the Illusion of Instant Healing
37:05 Midlife Collapse, Burnout, and the Need for Counseling
43:13 Hero Worship and Congregational Complicity
50:01 Leadership, Accountability, and the Absence of Humility
54:33 The Business Model of Church and Narcissistic Structures
59:34 A Return to Simplicity, Relationship, and Inner Renewal
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Bob discuss the psychological, spiritual, and emotional complexities of leadership failure within modern religious systems, especially those rooted in deliverance ministry culture. Drawing from personal experience, including their involvement in the rise of Kansas City Fellowship and later counseling roles, they reflect on the lack of accountability structures, the pursuit of affirmation and significance, and the dangers of narcissism in top-down church models. The conversation reveals how brokenness, inner struggles, and unresolved trauma often drive individuals into positions of leadership, where they are both idolized and isolated—making failure almost inevitable.
The conversation also addresses the broader cultural shifts in Christianity, including the rise and fall of megachurches, scandals from the 1980s to the present, and the recurring cycles of ministerial burnout and moral collapse. They critique the corporate church structure for fostering performance-driven personas disconnected from genuine community and accountability. Bob introduces the concept of “The Joseph Company” as a response to this crisis, working with leaders who have hit bottom and are seeking restoration. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of humility, teachability, and relational healing as the only sustainable path forward for both leaders and followers.
00:00 Introduction
01:09 Understanding Perspective Through Conflict and Feedback
06:06 Black-and-White Thinking and the Struggle for Moral Clarity
13:04 Bob’s Ministry Background and the Roots of Disillusionment
17:02 Scandals of the 1980s and the Human Side of Failure
23:07 The Real Reasons Leaders Enter Ministry
29:57 Deliverance Culture and the Illusion of Instant Healing
37:05 Midlife Collapse, Burnout, and the Need for Counseling
43:13 Hero Worship and Congregational Complicity
50:01 Leadership, Accountability, and the Absence of Humility
54:33 The Business Model of Church and Narcissistic Structures
59:34 A Return to Simplicity, Relationship, and Inner Renewal
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of
00:47a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.
00:51Jed, it's good to be back and to talk all things IHOPKC, and now we're diving into some
00:59of the legal aspects of IHOPKC, and I'll never forget when I first began digging into Branhamism,
01:07I knew nothing about this entire world that would soon become my life, but I knew basically
01:15that Branham was an offshoot of Pentecostalism of some sort.
01:18So my journey actually began digging slightly into Pentecostalism, just enough to skim the
01:24surface.
01:26And I went back in time, it was probably, I want to say I went back to the early 1900s,
01:33maybe late 1800s.
01:35And because of John Alexander Dowie, who was a name at that time I didn't know, but he
01:41would become a big name in this, because of him, there were so many faith healers, these
01:48stage acts that would rise up.
01:50I hesitate to call them faith healers because they're really not.
01:55But all of these guys, these snake oil salesmen, I'll say it like that, these guys would pop
01:58up everywhere, right?
02:01And they would tell people, you don't need your medicine.
02:04And the doctrine of Dowie was actually, you shouldn't use your medicine, because if you
02:09do, you're siding with the devil.
02:11It was demonic.
02:12So that doctrine kind of spread because he made so many millions of dollars off of it.
02:17People were doing it, and people were dying, as you can imagine, because without the medicines,
02:23there are people who die.
02:25But the legal aspects got really weird, because in my mind, I wanted to understand, well, what
02:33happened?
02:33Why all the lawsuits, and why you don't hear about this anymore?
02:36And I started studying just case laws on religion, and I came across this United States, I think
02:44it was a Supreme Court case, either that or it was a higher court, where they were going
02:51after, they're going after this medicinal company, this religious medicinal company, because this
02:59company was selling the Pentecostal movement, little vials of this poison that they could
03:07take in the snake handling and poison drinking churches.
03:11And it was literally religious poison, they were putting arsenic or something like this
03:16into these little vials, so that the Pentecostals could go into church and drink it and fulfill
03:21the end of the Book of Mark, where you can, you know, drink deadly things and handle snakes.
03:27And this company was making money, profiting off of this, and literally poisoning half of the
03:34Pentecostal sects that, you know, practice this stuff.
03:37So the legal aspects just astound me to think that in today's world that this can even exist.
03:45And I have, I recently, as of just last month, I had a conversation with a guy who's either
03:51father or uncle who was real big in the snake handling sects of Pentecostalism, and this thing
03:58still exists today.
03:59So I'm very curious to get into what you have to say about IHOPKC and all the legal issues.
04:06Yeah, it's, so your pursuit of looking in the historical 1900s, Dowie, and all of that,
04:15and all the research that you have done, is almost exactly what I started to do, too, in
04:21the same sort of similar process of being like, hey, what was the history of the world that
04:27I grew up in, which is how I found you initially.
04:32And thank goodness that you did all of that great research, because I probably would have
04:37hit a lot of dead ends and whatnot.
04:40But I also, too, was kind of looking back and being like, how much is my history rooted
04:46in some of this snake oil salesman stuff?
04:50Which, because you don't think of it, or at least I didn't think of it growing up, I knew
04:54about con artists, I knew about faith healers who were pretending, and who were just, you
05:02know, charlatans and con artists.
05:05And I always thought that that was just other groups of individuals, or that was other denominations,
05:11or like, I never really put it together that that's like the direct ancestry of my spiritual
05:17lineage.
05:17And what created and birthed IHOP, and what created the Latter Rain Movement, and all of
05:23that, was these people like Dowie, and the historical context of how they really created a lot of stories
05:38and fabrications in order to steal money from people to harm individuals to keep them from
05:48getting proper medication.
05:54Like Jack Coe was another example of someone who did this in the more recent times.
05:59He was a faith healer who was, there was a case brought against him because of his, what
06:09actually happened is he has this performance that Jack Coe was doing.
06:14And for those who don't know Jack Coe, like Jack Coe was a pretty famous evangelist and a
06:20pretty prominent evangelist who traveled in like the 1960s, and who would lead very big
06:27healing revivals.
06:29If I'm not mistaken, he used to boast about having the largest tent revival in human history
06:37because he went and he measured, I can't remember who else, it might have been, it might have
06:43been Branham, I can't remember who it was, but he measured someone else's tent.
06:47Like he, he actually went and walked the length of the tent and then ordered a tent that was
06:53like two feet bigger so that he could have the largest, uh, uh, tent in revival history
07:02or whatever.
07:03So he was, he was putting on these like really big spec or, you know, uh, yeah, big spectacles
07:10and, um, and during his sort of performance, he would proclaim that people would be healed.
07:20So people would come up and he would say that they were healed, whether or not they were,
07:25but like, let's say that you come up and you say that you have a bad back.
07:29He would like put his hand over your back and say, in the name of Jesus, you are healed,
07:33go forth.
07:34And, and he wouldn't wait for them to be like, to check.
07:38It was sort of like, you are healed, walk forth with the understanding that you're healed.
07:43If you're still feeling pain, you know, it's just a part of the process.
07:48Keep walking and, and eventually that you will be totally healed.
07:52But it was sort of this like faith act.
07:54So he was able to collect a lot of testimonies that weren't based in any actual evidence.
08:01It was just like, we're saying that you're healed.
08:04So therefore you are healed and look, this person got healed and it's a way to rack up
08:09numbers pretty quickly.
08:10Um, but one thing that he did specifically, um, and this is a story that people can look
08:14up, but, um, he, there was a young boy who was like three years, three, four years old.
08:22Um, and his mother, the boy's mother brought him to one of these, um, one of Ko's, uh, healing
08:30revivals.
08:31And at the meeting, Ko did the same thing where he kind of proclaims that the boy is healed
08:36and the boy had polio and he couldn't walk.
08:43So he had these big braces, um, that like the Forrest Gump braces.
08:48I don't know if Forrest Gump had polio, but that's sort of like those braces and, um,
08:57Ko instructed the mother to remove the braces because the boy was healed.
09:02And that in like an act of faith that she would remove the braces, have him walk, and he would
09:07walk free of these braces and be healed.
09:11Well, she does.
09:12She removes the braces.
09:14She has him walk.
09:15If there's like a, a week goes by and the boy is clearly in a ton of pain, she reaches out
09:21to Ko again and again, Ko says to, to have him walk in an act of faith.
09:27Um, and I think basically she does it for a little while and then realizes that the boy is not getting
09:35better and that he has not been healed and he in fact was damaged by removing the leg braces
09:43because like they're there for a reason, you know, and, um, they're there to support him.
09:48And so that this boy is walking with polio and, and is harming his, his spine and, and, and his ability
09:58to walk because, um, they're doing this act of faith.
10:01And so she brings, uh, or the, her and the, the father of the boy bring a suit against Ko for, um,
10:12what he had done.
10:13And, and in a lot of these different instances, when faith healers are brought to any sort of
10:20like public trial or any, any sort of, um, criminal or civil trial, usually what they're charged with
10:28is practicing medicine without license, because you can't, you can't charge someone with fraud
10:35in the, um, American judicial system because, well, you can't, you can't charge a faith healer
10:44with fraud because that is freedom of religion, freedom of religious expression.
10:51Like that it's just because we have so robust defenses of any sort of expression of religion.
10:59Ko was never going to be able to like, be held accountable for saying fraudulent things
11:05or having people come up and, and pretending like they were healed when they weren't healed.
11:09Um, at least from what I know, there's never been any sort of indication that any of these faith
11:17healers have ever been held accountable for actually deceiving the masses. It's always this
11:24got to find a way to hold them accountable and, and the ways that it's done or, um,
11:32by charging them with practicing medicine without a license. And so anyway, long story short,
11:40Ko like gets booked and I can't remember exactly all the details, but he goes to like a jail.
11:46He's not in jail. He's not in prison. He never did any time, but he had a photo op where he
11:55stood behind bars and got basically in the newspaper, the, the picture of him kind of
12:01very infamously looking like standing behind bars, looking, um, towards the camera as if this was,
12:09as if he was being persecuted, as if he was the one who the law was like coming after
12:15just because he had an active faith. And that's the way that it was taught in the way that I
12:19grew up. Um, like I remember hearing about Ko and about, uh, these other faith healers and how,
12:27um, if you, if you demonstrate the power of God too much, they're going to be people who come after
12:33you. And Ko was an example of that, that he was healing so many people that he was put into prison.
12:38And there's actually a video of a woman saying exactly this, where she was like,
12:43that's her sort of legacy that she's telling about Jack Ko is that he was so, he healed so many people
12:50that he was put in prison while he was never put in prison. And it wasn't because he was healing
12:55people. It was because he was not healing people. He was pretending to heal people and that they weren't
13:01getting healed. And I think that, I think that there ended up being a set, some sort of settlement
13:08that happened, but typically any sense of justice that I've seen in these, uh, like historically in
13:16this world is usually like civil cases where the family get paid some measure of damages and it's,
13:24and it's negotiated outside of court. So one, we don't have a whole lot of like history and precedent
13:30to even talk about these things. It makes sense that there's like those stories get buried. Um,
13:37anyway, I went on a huge tangent there, but just the point being is, um, the, the criminal cases,
13:45the, the, the interaction of these faith healers and these abusers and these con artists with like
13:53being held accountable to actual, like legally being held accountable is something that very,
14:02very rarely happens. Um, so yeah, it's a, I, I was going to say more, but I should let you actually
14:09get a word in here, John. Sorry. You don't want me to start talking because when I do, I never stop,
14:15man. You know, everybody likes a good martyr story and that's what the, you know, they spin
14:22these things like that and they spin it into such a way that the cult leaders, the authoritarian
14:28figures, they're made out to be martyrs and these guys are not, and they're far from it. I remember
14:34when I was doing my research, when I finally got to researching Dowie and I, I wrote a, published a book
14:39on it. Um, it, it got crazy because the lawsuits against him were in the hundreds, not tens, not,
14:48I mean, there were, I think at one point he had in process, I think it was like 300 lawsuits in
14:56process at that moment. So he was fighting a large number of them and the way that his,
15:04when Dowie created his empire, his financial empire, he had these makeshift healing homes
15:12that if you had a lot of money and you contacted Dowie's team and displayed that you had a lot of
15:20money, then you could send your sick loved one or yourself into these healing homes. And when they
15:26got there, these things were, I'm laughing. It's, it's absurd. It's really sad. It shouldn't be funny,
15:32but they had these little shanties that were so poorly constructed that probably one patient's
15:39money could have purchased the whole shanty and they get in here and people with very deadly diseases
15:46are in these cots with no separation of them and the other person with the disease. So you're sitting
15:54literally next to some death case that could infect you and get, take your life. And it did,
16:00there were people that this would happen to, and they would go through strenuous exercises to heal
16:06them. Some of it very painful. And if a person didn't display their healing, if they, in other
16:13words, if they didn't get healed, then they were made a spectacle of for the other sick patients in
16:18the room. This person doesn't have enough faith. He's not getting healed. And they would forcibly
16:24eject them from the buildings, sometimes in the cold, sometimes with nothing but the little,
16:29you know, hospital gowns or whatever. And the neighbors would come take these poor victims
16:34from the streets and try to, you know, get them some medical care. So there were numerous lawsuits
16:40being filed. And there came a point at which some of them stuck because he was legitimately operating
16:49a hospital. But he started to separate himself from this and the court cases got really weird. I go
16:57through that in the book a little bit. Yeah, all the while he's telling people, come to the healing
17:02homes, give me your money, you can be healed. And don't go don't go to the doctors, the doctors are
17:08the devil's tools. He himself is going to physicians for and there was a physician on staff. There were
17:16people who were helping him medically, especially towards the end of his life whenever he started into
17:22his health decline. But this was the basis for what became modern Pentecostalism. When Charles Fox Parham
17:30created his sect, he modeled it after John Alexander Dowie, which is the biggest of the con artists.
17:37And also he modeled it after Frank Sanford sect, which had the same kind of scheme going on.
17:44And that really started this big ball rolling. Well, Dowie set the precedent for the faith healers. They all
17:49wanted to be the I think there was like 10 million dollars he made in just a year. It was crazy.
17:56Everybody wanted that. So they started modeling after that pattern. But Dowie also set the precedent
18:03for the legal aspect. Because in the end, after these hundreds of lawsuits were flung at him,
18:09in the end, he was able to claim separation of church and state, you can't attack and believe whatever
18:14I want. And the con artist eventually got away with it. Well, and Parham had similar things like
18:22this too. Didn't he have a case where he was working with someone about turning metal into gold?
18:30There was some... Do you remember what I'm talking about? I do. I mentioned that. I can't remember
18:35where I mentioned that, but it's the reverse. So the scam artist got scammed.
18:40Oh, gotcha. Somebody came along and said, hey man, if you invest in our company, we can take this
18:48little elixir and you can put it on ordinary rocks and that'll turn it into gold from God. And Parham
18:55started investing in it. Now, personally, I think Parham did not get duped, but the newspapers make it out
19:02like he did. I think Parham saw it as an opportunity to make a lot of money by duping other people. But
19:07that's my opinion. Gotcha. Gotcha. So he was, yeah, he bought into it, whether he knew what was going
19:15on or whether he was duped. Now he did get into some legal trouble, a lot of legal trouble, because
19:22he, everybody who studied Parham knows this. He got into trouble because he, in his sleep,
19:29sexually got involved with one of his students. And that story, if you do a search on Parham,
19:38you can find that. I was choosing my words carefully so I don't get censored. Yes. Yeah.
19:41But going beyond that, Parham admitted it. He said, yes, I did, but I did it in my sleep,
19:48and you can't hold me accountable for what I do when I'm asleep, which is weird. That's what he admitted.
19:54Yeah. But what you don't find written about very much, during the course of this lawsuit
20:02between him and the young man, Parham, the reason why this existed, Parham was getting involved in the
20:10student ministry, and it was widespread. He was holding these student conventions where the parents
20:16would drop off their children, and Parham was preying upon the children, apparently, because there were
20:22numerous letters and statements and testimonies in this trial that emerged where Parham, there were
20:30enough voices that, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, Parham should have gone to prison.
20:35How he got out of it, I don't know. Well, I mean, that's a pretty
20:41perfect segue into some of what is going on today, because, well, two different things. One,
20:48when you're talking about the con, the snake oil stuff, again, it's easy to think of this as
20:57something that was happening in the sort of wild west of the early 1900s, in the very lawless days
21:04before the, you know, Food and Drug Administration and before these things were
21:10regulated as much. But you see a lot of this happening today with, with like, like Jimmy Baker,
21:22just there was a case in 2020 or 2021, where he had, I think it was literally called Silver Bullet, but
21:32it was this, this thing that he, Jimmy Baker was selling to a lot of people as a cure to COVID. Or
21:40there was like, kind of very fuzzy language around it, whether he was claiming it was a cure or wasn't
21:46a cure. And so he had to, I think the state of Missouri sued him and he had to like, pay back some of
21:54some of the money, like there was a suit against him. But it was the same idea is that we found this
22:00sort of mirror miracle cure that God has, that's gonna, you know, you take it, you don't have to
22:05worry about COVID selling this. There's Russell Brand is doing similar stuff with this with like
22:12amulets and selling spiritual, you know, crystals and amulets, which Russell Brand just started working
22:19with Sean Foyt, which I don't know if you know Sean Foyt, but he's, he's a very famous, he became famous
22:27because he was, um, he was fighting against the COVID restrictions in California and he is tied up
22:37with, um, with Bethel and he is like a worship leader and he was like very, very vocal. Um, he like
22:46purposely held events during COVID lockdowns, um, in order to like prove the sort of defiance against the
22:56government and whatnot. And that's a whole can of worms. But anyway, he's now partnering with Russell
23:01Brands, um, doing just like, just some really shady fraudulent stuff. And it, and it's, it's kind of
23:11crazy how much the world of the charismatic Pentecostal, whenever I say that, or whatever you say,
23:20there's plenty of people who will be like, not all Pentecostals are like this. No. And I'm,
23:26that's not what I'm saying, but the history of Pentecostalism and the charismatic church is just,
23:32you can't, you cannot tell the story of care, uh, uh, the charismatic church or the Pentecostal
23:39church without telling the story of all of these different con artists, like the, for better or worse,
23:45well, for worse, the story of, of those denominations are shaped by these different individuals who, um,
23:53committed all of these sorts of fraud. And so going with, with Parham and with abuse, because
24:00obviously with IHOP and a lot of the situations, it was less situations of just fraud and stealing
24:07people's money and more of like actual, whether it be sexual or whether it be prophetic or,
24:16different types of abuse happening. And so of course there was this whole
24:21last two, three years, there's been this huge exposure on Mike Bickle and not just Mike Bickle,
24:28but an entire culture of abuse at the International House of Prayer. We've had previous
24:33videos where we've kind of gone into some of the investigations, um, and some of the, um,
24:40information that's been revealed about how Mike Bickle was a predator, how there were other
24:46individuals on staff who were also preying on people. Um, and one of the cases, one of the cases
24:55that was reported in the Kansas City Star was, uh, a man named, um, the abuser, alleged abuser,
25:03I gotta be careful in the way that I, um, say some of this language, um, because
25:09there's lawsuits going on now. And, um, but the alleged abuser was a man named Larry Lucky
25:17or Lawrence Lucky. I, I grew up, I knew this man and I knew you like, I knew about him. And I heard
25:23tell that he was like, I just tell him growing up in the IHOP community, I was warned against spending
25:32time with Larry Lucky because they were questionable. He was having questionable behavior
25:39with young men. That was, that was common knowledge of, um, young men in my group. Like I remember
25:48talking with some of my friends, um, about this and whether it was rumors or not, like there,
25:54there was a lot of sort of hesitancy about this, um, man, Larry Lucky, who was in when I was a teenager,
26:03he was in his thirties or so, give or take. So anyway, there was a very specific story, um,
26:10that the Casey star wrote about that. There was a, um, alleged victim who came forward, whose, uh,
26:19name, uh, was Justin or is Justin. And he, he's about my age. He's a little bit younger. He's a couple
26:26years younger than me. Um, and he alleged that, uh, Larry, who was, uh, involved in IHOP, um, and was
26:37kind of seen as a mentor in the community at IHOP. He was a bass player. He was on a lot of the
26:45different worship leader sets. And we previously talked about how much worship was like an important
26:51aspect in the international house of prayer community. Like the worship leaders were, uh,
26:59many celebrities in our world. Like they were very important, prominent and whatnot. So just to
27:07summarize, and I encourage people to, to read the articles, um, that are about this to get the specifics,
27:15but, um, Justin alleged that Larry took advantage of him when he was 16 years old and that they had
27:26relations, which when you are 16 years old, you are not at the legal age of consent. And so this was
27:34non-consensual because he wasn't old enough. Larry was in his thirties at the time. And,
27:38and allegedly Justin was, um, 16 when this happened. Now, the age of consent in Missouri is not 18,
27:50but 17. Um, in other states it's 18, but in Missouri it's, it's 17. And so the, basically the
27:59Kansas City Star, along with Justin's testimony, allegedly there were other victims who corroborated
28:07Justin's story who were stating their story anonymously. Um, but anyway, uh, Kansas City Star
28:16wrote about this and wrote about it as one of the other, like, it was a part of a larger story about
28:22the abuse that was going on at the international house of prayer and how there were abusers on staff
28:28at different times and that, um, or a part of the leadership at the international house of prayer.
28:33And it was addressing some of the, these like systemic issues. And Justin was kind of, you know,
28:40Justin was a really important victim. I mean, every victim, um, is important and their story is all
28:47important, but his story was important because it also was the first indication, uh, uh, first testimony
28:54from a male. And I can tell you there was a lot of abuse that was happening against young men in the
29:00international house of prayer community that isn't spoken out, uh, uh, as much. Um, I mean,
29:08for both men and women, like there's a lot of women who haven't spoken out either, but it can be very
29:14difficult. If you're a young man speaking out about abuse is like a very, a very terrifying thing because
29:22not only will your character be called into question, but a lot of times, if you talk about
29:29abuse that happened to you, your sexuality is going to be, um, brought, uh, to the table and people are
29:37going to talk about your sexuality. So if you either are not comfortable with having that conversation,
29:43um, a lot of, a lot of young men just don't say anything about it. And I know several individuals
29:51who were abused at the international house of prayer and, or victimized in some respect who just,
29:58they don't talk about it because it's, there's not a whole lot of good in, in speaking up about it.
30:05So Justin speaks out and then now Larry is, is, uh, accusing, um, both the Kansas City Star and Justin
30:13of definite defamation, um, because, um, there's just a lot of quibbles on whether what they said was
30:23true. They, they painted, uh, Larry and, and, um, his lawyer painted as a miscontrol of, of facts. Um,
30:33I don't know what is going to happen in this report. Um, but it's, it's definitely scary because,
30:39um, victims who are speaking out are now being, um, kind of targeted. Um, the lawyer, um, that's
30:47defending Larry, um, her name is, let me pull it up in the, um, Karen, it's actually stated wrong
30:57in the article as Karen Weigart, but it's Swigart, but Karen Swigart, who represented,
31:03um, or is currently representing Donald Trump in, um, a, uh, uh, what's the,
31:14the central park five cases. Um, there's different, uh, defamation suits and there's different suits
31:22that are involving that and that have to do with like freedom of speech and whatnot.
31:27And she's defending Trump in these or representing Trump in these, um, uh, different cases.
31:35And so, I mean, she's a, she's a serious lawyer and she is now defending this Larry lucky and is,
31:46is suing both the Kansas city star and suing Justin. And I'm not sure what's going to happen
31:51here. Um, and this is a, I think a really important instance in analyzing like what is,
31:58what is going to be the legal repercussions. And it's not fought just on one side. Like, it's not
32:04just, um, you know, victims trying to find, um, their, their way of justice. It's also individuals
32:13fighting back and like, um, you know, I want to be careful in how I talk about it, but like,
32:20I, I think it's really a frightening thing that's happening.
32:24Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
32:30modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements
32:36into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's
32:42website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research
32:50of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,
32:57audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation
33:03on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,
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33:14be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
33:19On behalf of William Branham historical research, we want to thank you for your support.
33:24You know, this case is such a big deal, not just for IHOPKC, but there are national implications of
33:31this case because everything from advocacy groups to just protection of your speech and your freedom to
33:39protection of the victims. It's a big deal. And the timing of it is a little bit interesting. I
33:45recently published on Twitter and my Facebook feeds that there's a Branhamite group in Arizona
33:53that they're also investigating sexual abuse that happened in that church. And where it gets really
33:59interesting is under Arizona laws, which is where this Branhamite sect was, the priests and the clergy
34:06members are, it's mandatory that they report any sexual abuse that they find. It's mandatory. Now,
34:14that's not the case in all states, as I understand it, although I'm no legal expert, but cases like
34:20this could blow the whole lid open on this thing because not just in IHOPKC, but also the Branhamite
34:27groups, many people who have contacted me from different splinter groups that emerged out of latter rain.
34:35It seems to be a widespread problem. I don't understand why it is. It's not like the religion
34:40advocates for this kind of thing to happen, but they do advocate for a authoritarian structure
34:46in many of these groups. And so the structure really doesn't permit the ability to protect the
34:55victims. Because if you do, and you're in this group that is claiming that you are divinely inspired by
35:01God, this is the perfect movement. Come to us. We're happy. We're peaceful. We're blissful.
35:06You're protected with us.
35:07Right.
35:08It really breaks that narrative. And so there's a reason why that the groups try to cover it up.
35:14Maybe that's why they do. I don't know. I don't know why it's like this.
35:18I do know that the abuse happens in any religion. It's, you know, people are people and there are
35:24good people and there are bad people and people who need help. But the fact that it's being covered
35:29up is a big deal. This court case that you're describing could hope, and hopefully it will,
35:34hopefully it blows the lid off of this whole thing. And the government steps in and says,
35:38no, you can't do this. It's mandatory that you do not cover up these abuse cases,
35:44and you're going to be suffering penalties of the law if you do.
35:48Yeah. And I think that, especially with this one, I mean, obviously this is,
35:52in this particular case, you have someone who's trying to silence someone who spoke out
35:59and deal with defamation. I would love to see this. Like, I think that it's scary on both ends.
36:09Or it's just important on both ends because, you know, this could lead to counter suits and
36:15situations in which there's a lot of, like, new kind of understanding of what that victim's,
36:24new protections for victims who do speak out and to tell their story. Or there could be,
36:32on the flip side, if there is, if the courts side with Lucky and this case, there could be
36:41even more reason for victims to not speak out. Because if they do, they could, they could be
36:49penalized. And this could, this could be the case, is that Justin and the Kansas City Star could have,
36:54could have, um, could be sued because of, or they are being sued. They could lose their suit
37:01because, um, because, um, you know, when you, when you speak out and you speak against abuse that
37:12happen, you have to be super, super precise with your language. Um, and the things that you claim,
37:18because if you don't, you know, they're going to tear it apart. And a lot of what this specific
37:24situation is about, it's about whether or not Justin was 16 or 17. I mean, it really comes down
37:29to like a, um, Larry is, is not claiming that he never had any relations with, with, um, Justin,
37:38but that he's claiming that they, that it was consensual and that Justin was old enough to, um,
37:44do it. And that it wasn't, it wasn't the sort of mint mentor, mentee relationship,
37:49trying to paint it more as peers, which just from a non-legal standpoint, just from a human standpoint.
37:57So this is very much my opinion. I think that that is absolute, um, pardon my language here,
38:05but that's absolute bullshit. Like, I, I just think that it is absolutely ridiculous that like
38:12a teenager, whether 17 or 16 or even 18 or 19, having relations with a 30 year old who is like
38:22a mentor in that community, whether he was officially on staff at IHOP or not, it's just
38:29like, that is a, that is, in my opinion, a abusive relationship, no matter how you cut it, whether
38:38or not it, it meets the, the legal definition of abuse is something that we're going to see
38:45in the courts, um, here. And I think that it's, um, it's a dicey situation, um, to see this played
38:54out in the courts. Um, but one big thing that struck me and the reason why I really wanted to talk
38:59about this John was in the lawsuit that, and you can find a copy of the suit that, um, Larry, Larry
39:09kind of petitions and, and, and that as lawyers authored against Justin and against the Kansas City
39:15Star. He's of course, it's, it's a suit. So he's seeking damages and he's seeking, um, compensation for
39:23the damages brought about by the tarnishing of his name. And in it, he talks about how his businesses,
39:32um, have been affected. And he talks about how he is a, uh, teacher, uh, and he's a base,
39:40he's a base player. And he, so a lot of what his occupation is, is that he plays music at different
39:47churches and that he's in these church communities and he wants to, you know, teach lessons and like
39:54his reputation being slandered, uh, according to him, uh, is, is damaging his sort of occupation
40:04and his, and his just personal reputation. And I was reading it because it struck me as so
40:11like, I, I just, I had a moment where I felt unraveled for a very brief second, because it just struck me
40:25that like the damages that Larry is wanting to have financial compensation for is literally something
40:36that every single individual who has ever had to leave these church communities or these cult
40:45communities has had to experience. Larry's upset because he suddenly has had his reputation tarnished
40:53among the people that he cares about and he loves and that he can no longer play base at these different
40:59churches and that he can't be a part of these communities and that his reputation was hurt.
41:04Um, you know who also can't play music at any of these church communities? Me, you, anybody who's
41:12spoken out against any of this? Like that's exactly what happens. We're supposed to feel sorry for these
41:20abusers. Like the same with Mike Bickle. People are like, won't you think of Mike Bickle? And it's like,
41:25what has happened to him? He's still living his life. He's not had any, he's not had to pay any,
41:32like he's not in prison. He's not had any of his autonomy restricted. If anything, he just can't be
41:39a pastor in these church communities again. And honestly, he probably will try and he probably
41:45will succeed at some point because people listen to him, you know? And so it's like, what is,
41:52what is being done? Like Mike Bickle could go and restart a church right now. And he would have
41:59a larger congregation than if I would ever do that because like I left the church, you know,
42:04it's just these sorts of things where the cost, the worst case scenario for these abusers is that
42:13they just have to live a life like anybody, any single member of their community who had to
42:20had to step away. Like this is just the reality that all of us face. Also, Larry is never claiming
42:29that he did not have homosexual relations with a young man. That in of itself, regardless of whether
42:38this is fair or true, like, do you know how many people I grew up with who are excommunicated from
42:44their community because of their sexual identity? That happens all the time. Do we have, did they
42:51have legal recourse to like talk to the pastors who preach, you know, homophobic stuff from the pulpit,
43:02who then it relates to them being like excommunicated from their entire community? Like,
43:09it's just baffling to me. And I feel very passionately, like, I feel angry that
43:21we are supposed to feel sorry for these abusers who are experiencing just a shred of what
43:32so many members of their community feel on a daily basis. Like, it's just, it's just,
43:42it's hard for me to wrap my head around it. We become so accustomed to the everyday pains and
43:51abuses that individuals who grew up in these, grow up in these communities or who are part of these
43:57communities suffer when they step even marginally outside of the like condoned region. You know,
44:06if you suddenly believe something that's just a little bit off, if you have just a little different
44:12politics or God forbid, you have a different sexual orientation, and that's suddenly you lose loved
44:18ones, you lose your occupation. I mean, so many people who have zero money are their entire, you know,
44:27their entire income is based off of being a pastor in this church, being a youth leader in this church,
44:33being a volunteer or whatever, being even a part of on staff there, they get
44:41very small stipends to begin with. And then suddenly that stipend is removed. Like, this is just the
44:47everyday experiences of people who are live in cold communities like this. And I, and we're,
44:55I don't know, I'm just repeating the same thing, but like, we're supposed to feel,
44:59why are we supposed to feel sorry for Mike Bickle? Why is the, why is suddenly the law coming to the
45:06defense of Larry Lucky? Like, which hopefully it will not, but it's just, it makes me feel very
45:14pessimistic about the state of the world that we are in when these abusers can seek
45:25legal recourse against victims who are speaking out, which
45:33that seems to be the case in this particular situation. And I think that that's awfully frightening.
45:39It is frightening. And you know, I've mentioned this before, but the biggest problem that I have
45:44with the hero worship that's in the Pentecostal charismatic NAR movements is that many of the
45:49heroes were in fact villains and many of whether the people who are supporting them are good guys
45:56or not, they cover up the fact that they were villains. And if you have a wolf that's among the
46:02sheep and it's, it becomes a pattern. There's, there is a pattern established of abuse and you can trace
46:09it all the way back to Parham likely before that, but there weren't too many records, but you see this
46:14pattern of abuse that goes through time. And many of these people are declared God's generals. And I
46:21recently just had, you, you mentioned the homosexual aspect. I recently had a person who was in the guy
46:30who wrote God's generous books. He was in his church and this guy claimed that even the guy that wrote the
46:37book was abusive in many ways. So you've got this pattern that's established and they don't really
46:44offer protection for the sheep, the people who are attending the church and the congregations.
46:49If there's a pattern established, I mean, honestly, I'm no preacher, but if it was my church, I would be
46:55like warning the people, Hey, look out. We have this very, very bad pattern and it seems to continue
47:01happening. Here's what you watch out for. And quite frankly, every sermon would be focused on that
47:08until the problem problem was eradicated. But instead these guys appear to just cover it up,
47:13sweep it under the rug. Let's pretend that it never happened. But when it does happen again,
47:19we're going to shame the victims. Yeah. And I, I think that one of the
47:23things that adds to the issue and it's kind of what we've been talking about is that you're,
47:28there's just not a whole lot of legal recourse. Obviously we have talked in extensively about how
47:36there isn't a whole lot of recourse within the communities and how these communities are
47:41structured to make it really difficult for victims to find any sense of accountability,
47:47but it's also the case obviously that there just is not a whole lot of legal recourse. And one good
47:54example of this is, um, there is a law in Missouri that you cannot, um, pursue civil charges against, um, a
48:07a abuser in, in cases of child sexual, um, uh, misconduct or abuse. You can't, there's a, uh,
48:18statute of limitations that goes from 10 years after the individual is 18. So by the time they're 28 or
48:25whatever, they cannot pursue, um, uh, any sort of civil recourse because it's beyond the statute of
48:33limitations. And a lot of people are asking the question of why is there a statute of limitations
48:40for these things? Like the perfect example is Mike Bickle and the international house of prayer and,
48:47um, Tammy Woods and, and Deborah, um, and my mom didn't come forward and speak out against their abuse
48:57until they were in their fifties and sixties. And it makes sense. Sometimes they're the abuse is so
49:06pervasive and systemic that it is difficult for an individual to even recognize that they were abused
49:12until much, much later. And this is coming up in the case with Justin as well. There, there is not legal
49:18recourse for Justin to pursue damages in regards to Larry because it was right on the edge of being
49:27more than a decade ago. And that is a huge problem. Like that just frankly is a huge problem. There
49:33shouldn't be this sort of like, Oh, 10 years it's is up. There's therefore you can't do anything about
49:39it. Um, which fortunately there is a bill that is, um, being that actually just passed. It's the first
49:46level. I believe I don't, I'm not totally sure all of the, um, sort of legal course that this bill will
49:54take, but, um, in Missouri, um, there's a Senate bill that was being debated and the several of the
50:03women who have been involved in the international house prayer, um, scandal, including a good friend
50:08of mine, Gratia, who, um, has experienced abuse. And she spoke very eloquently at the sort of hearing
50:16where, um, it was, the bill was brought forth to the Missouri state senators and Tammy, um, and Deborah
50:24were there along with other individuals who were involved with all of this IHOP scandal to kind of
50:29testify of, Hey, this statute of limitations is, is really inhibiting, um, victims from having a sense
50:39of, of legal accountability for some of the things that they suffered, even though it was 10, 20, 30
50:45years ago that they still deserve justice. And what's crazy is that they came and they spoke and,
50:52but there were people who were speaking against them. There is, there were lobbyists who were hired
50:57to give the sort of counterpoint. So they're saying, Hey, this bill, which this bill was, was,
51:04um, if this bill is enacted, it would remove this sort of 10 year limitation. And there were activists
51:12who were arguing against it saying that it would be bad for business for, um, insurance adjusters,
51:19um, and insurance companies, because now these individuals who committed abuse decades ago would
51:26now be held accountable. Well, that's not actually because it would, it would take, it would, it's
51:31just future. It's not going to be retroactively like what is done for the, I mean, this is what's
51:36heartbreaking. What, what's done for Tammy and for, um, Deborah, I mean, what's done is done that they're
51:44not going, even if this bill is, um, passed, it's just going to be from this point sort of forward,
51:52um, accountability. And it's just, it, I don't understand why this isn't a cut and dry situation.
52:00It's just like that it, every individual should be able to pursue, um, um, justice for their abuse.
52:07And the fact that there's this sort of 10 year window on it is ridiculous. But anyway, all of,
52:14all of this sort of depressing stuff that we've been addressing, I will say that there is work that's
52:20being done. And this instance, like, I do believe that this, this bill is going to pass. And it's
52:26something that I think people should follow, um, because I think it's really important. And hopefully
52:30there's a cascading effect starts in Missouri, but I would love to see something widespread throughout
52:36the nation that there are systems of accountability for those who are, uh, who have been abused to
52:43have sort of legal recourse and justice, um, in the future. And there's a long way to go in this fight,
52:50but, um, it's good to know that there are, um, people like Tammy and Deborah and Gratia and, um,
52:57the lawyers who have been working on their end to fight against this. Like, it's good to know that,
53:03that people are fighting the good fight and hopefully in the future, um, there will be change.
53:08It's so hard to believe, man. It's like 10 years ago, you robbed a bank, the bank teller saw you,
53:14but they feared for the life. So they didn't say anything, but that happened 10 years ago. You're
53:18not in trouble for it. We're just going to let you walk. That's really what it feels like. But
53:24anyway, hopefully this does blow the lid open and some of these people can get justice. So thank you for
53:30coming on and talking about this. Yeah, my pleasure. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more
53:35information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more
53:40about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
53:45from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:05So thank you for listening and to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:11And you can find us at william-branham.
54:13We'll see you next time.
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