Behind the Curtain: The Inner Demons Driving Hero Worship - Bob Scott - Detangling IHOPKC - 317 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  John and Bob discuss the psychological, spiritual, and emotional complexities of leadership failure within modern religious systems, especially those rooted in deliverance ministry culture. Drawing from personal experience, including their involvement in the rise of Kansas City Fellowship and later counseling roles, they reflect on the lack of accountability structures, the pursuit of affirmation and significance, and the dangers of narcissism in top-down church models. The conversation reveals how brokenness, inner struggles, and unresolved trauma often drive individuals into positions of leadership, where they are both idolized and isolated—making failure almost inevitable.  The conversation also addresses the broader cultural shifts in Christianity, including the rise and fall of megachurches, scandals from the 1980s to the present, and the recurring cycles of ministerial burnout and moral collapse. They critique the corporate church structure for fostering performance-driven personas disconnected from genuine community and accountability. Bob introduces the concept of “The Joseph Company” as a response to this crisis, working with leaders who have hit bottom and are seeking restoration. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of humility, teachability, and relational healing as the only sustainable path forward for both leaders and followers.  00:00 Introduction 01:09 Understanding Perspective Through Conflict and Feedback 06:06 Black-and-White Thinking and the Struggle for Moral Clarity 13:04 Bob’s Ministry Background and the Roots of Disillusionment 17:02 Scandals of the 1980s and the Human Side of Failure 23:07 The Real Reasons Leaders Enter Ministry 29:57 Deliverance Culture and the Illusion of Instant Healing 37:05 Midlife Collapse, Burnout, and the Need for Counseling 43:13 Hero Worship and Congregational Complicity 50:01 Leadership, Accountability, and the Absence of Humility 54:33 The Business Model of Church and Narcissistic Structures 59:34 A Return to Simplicity, Relationship, and Inner Renewal   ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder

00:00:47of Kansas City Fellowship and the author of two books, the latest of which is Some Said

00:00:52They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, The Kansas City Prophets, and

00:00:57the International House of Prayer. Bob, it's good to be back, and I'm a little excited

00:01:02for today's episode because I've wanted to do this with you for some time. After the

00:01:07very first one that we dropped with you and me, I started getting all the craziest feedback,

00:01:13man.

00:01:13And it's like, oh my gosh, you know? And it's funny because for my original YouTube

00:01:22site started in, I think it was maybe August of 2012. It's been a long time. That website

00:01:31or that YouTube site went until the cult literally brought it down. And then I started the new

00:01:36one probably three, four years ago. They've tried to bring it down, and I've, you know,

00:01:41I'm in battles constantly. But since I've started this, I get all kinds of feedback,

00:01:46as you can imagine. Anytime you address a cult, there are people from both sides. They want

00:01:51to attack it for whatever reason. But the feedback that we're getting for your podcast, it's more

00:01:59about the perspective, which is interesting to me because this is really a podcast that

00:02:04is almost solely and entirely about perspective. So I thought maybe it'd be a good idea if we

00:02:10just talk through perspective a little bit.

00:02:13That's kind of like my favorite word. So now you got me all excited because I love the whole

00:02:17idea of perspective. And partly the reason for that, I've spent a lot of time in the nation of

00:02:26Zimbabwe. I actually have three books. The very first one is called Saving Zimbabwe, and it's about

00:02:3216 friends of mine that were martyred there on a peace project.

00:02:36And so by virtue of that book and the story, I ended up in the middle of doing a lot of racial

00:02:43reconciliation. When you're in the middle of conflict, right, what are you actually dealing

00:02:50with? You're dealing with a conflict of perspectives. Two people looking at the very same situation

00:02:57in two completely different ways. I actually, on my Facebook page yesterday, posted every Tuesday,

00:03:07I kind of put a little article out and I talk about Cartman's relational triangle. And Cartman was a

00:03:16psychologist in San Francisco that basically said that in any conflict, there's three personalities.

00:03:23There's a persecutor, right? There's somebody that's accusing, right? You did something wrong.

00:03:30There's a victim. You're the one that did it wrong. And then there's a rescuer. And he talks about how

00:03:37everybody plays one of these three roles. So you see this a lot in family dynamics, right? The older

00:03:43sibling attacks a younger sibling about something they said or did. Then another sibling steps in to

00:03:49rescue the situation, then they turn on the one that's the prosecutor, and then they become the

00:03:57victim. And it spins, right? And so you see this all the time. That's where perspective gets really

00:04:03interesting.

00:04:04Right? There's a song and I can't remember who sings it, it might have been a old Southern gospel

00:04:09song, but walk a mile in my shoes, it comes from the saying, you know, you don't, you can't know me

00:04:13until you've walked a mile in my shoes. And that's really what this podcast is all about for me, because

00:04:20every perspective that I get from people who come onto the show, and I don't care what you know, what

00:04:28you believe, what you don't believe, what your background is, I want to know your perspective,

00:04:32I want to know the bits and pieces of the puzzle that I don't have. And you really can't get that if

00:04:38you alienate people. And what I find really ironic about some of the feedback that we've gotten,

00:04:44I've even got some from email that some of it's a little harsh, and I don't share with other people,

00:04:49but you can see, you can look at the YouTube feed, and you can see some of the comments. But

00:04:53what I, what I come to understand is people have been in an environment where they want to suppress

00:05:00opposing thought. And so when somebody has a different perspective, they really want to shut it off.

00:05:08I have, it hasn't come out yet, it will probably come out before this podcast drops. But

00:05:14there is a really intelligent guy who was involved with the NAR and has some unique perspective on

00:05:23a lot of information that I'm still trying to tap into his brain and get. And he mentioned just

00:05:29casually in the episode, he was talking about, what's his name, Roberts Learden. And he was talking

00:05:36about he was in Roberts Learden's church. Roberts Learden was outed as being homosexual during this

00:05:44time that he was in there. And the irony is Learden was physically assaulting him to try to cast the

00:05:52demon of same sex attraction out of him. And he did not talk about even where he was currently,

00:05:58he just said this thing happened in the past, I got attacked left and right. And I was in the works

00:06:05with a rather famous podcast, this, this person had a lot of views, I'm not gonna name who it was. But

00:06:12he was inviting me to come help spread awareness of Branham ism. And I guess he was watching the show.

00:06:19And he heard this guy say this. And he called me up and said, I'm not having you on the show,

00:06:24because you didn't chastise him on your podcast. Right. And how can you get somebody's perspective,

00:06:30if you're not not going to at least be nice to him? But you see how you see how the triangle works,

00:06:36right? You were the prosecutor, right? You basically pointed out something, right? Right. Then

00:06:43there was a victim, right? So people perceived, okay, John's prosecuting the situation, and he's

00:06:49attacking William Branham, right? And so William Branham becomes the victim, right? And then what

00:06:57happens is the people that are, you know, think that you're victimizing, somebody decides they're

00:07:03going to come rescue the situation by attacking you, then you become the victim, right? And they all pile

00:07:10on you. Then somebody comes in to want to rescue that. But where this really gets played out, if you

00:07:16know anything about law enforcement, right? This happens all the time. There's a reason why you never

00:07:22see a single officer show up at a domestic disturbance call. And my friends in the police force explained

00:07:29it to me, because what happens is, you got two people pounding each other, right? They're in this

00:07:35violent attack, right? You step into the middle of the situation, and they've team up and attack you.

00:07:42Exactly.

00:07:43It's the weirdest thing, right? They're like one minute, they hate each other, and they're violently

00:07:48angry. And then the minute you try to come in and rescue the situation, they both turn and attack you.

00:07:53That's why you never see a single officer do a domestic call, because they'll get beat up. So let's

00:07:58get back to perspective here, because I'll tell you where I sort of got my interest in the word. And it

00:08:07actually comes from Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus. And he uses this phrase, the manifold

00:08:15wisdom of God. And of course, if you know my story, I didn't come from a Christian background.

00:08:24So when I started reading the Bible, I didn't really understand a lot. So I see the word

00:08:31manifold, and I think car. It's like a manifold on an engine, right? It's like, wait a minute,

00:08:40what do you mean? God's got a manifold, right? It's like, what does this mean, right? Which then led

00:08:45me into kind of unpacking that verse, only to realize that what it was talking about was the

00:08:51many faceted wisdom of God, the many sided, right? You see this in Ezekiel, and Ezekiel has his weird

00:09:00visions, you know what I mean? And you see these creatures with four faces, right? Or, you know what

00:09:06I mean? It's like, it's like trying to describe God. Well, God's so diverse. There's many facets.

00:09:13And so one of the things that becomes very difficult for a lot of people, especially in the religious

00:09:20world, is we're trained to think in diametric thought. What I mean by that is we see things

00:09:28as either good or evil, right? It's either or. Exactly. They see it black or white, and the world

00:09:38is filled with gray. Yeah. And as a child, right, you're taught black and white. And that's what part

00:09:46of the maturing process of growing up is, is you get in these situations, and it's not

00:09:52so black and white. I'll give you an example, which is very unseemly one, but it's an ethics

00:09:57question, right? And one of the battles that you wrestle with in ethics is, again, what's

00:10:05right and what's wrong. You have a Jewish mother with a newborn who's hiding with 20 other

00:10:12Jewish people as the Gestapo is going through their house looking for them to send them

00:10:18to Auschwitz. The baby starts crying. The mother ends up smothering her baby to death to save

00:10:27the other 20 people. Wow. Is that evil or is that good? That's terrible. And the reason I

00:10:35bring this up, that's a very real situation. That happened many times. Yeah. And so how do you,

00:10:44how do you respond to those things? You see? And so one of the things that I got in trouble with,

00:10:52or I shouldn't say I wasn't in trouble, but people got frustrated with me about some said they blundered

00:10:58was they wanted me to be more extreme, more dogmatic in my perspective. He's good. He's bad.

00:11:11Right. He's evil. You know, they wanted me to, to be extreme. And what I was trying to get people

00:11:18to grasp is good and evil are happening simultaneously, often at the same time in the same person.

00:11:25It's not always so cut and dry. Yeah. Right. Right. Things get done wrong ways.

00:11:36Wrong things get done right ways. And we all experience this, you know, at our age,

00:11:44we've been through myriads of these situations, right? Where it's like, huh? Yeah. What'd I do with

00:11:50this? Yeah. I'm fascinated with history, all kinds of history. And one of the, one of my

00:11:55former fascinations, I haven't read anything in a while, but read a lot of biographies of people who

00:12:01were dealing with organized crime, especially during the prohibition era. This just, this was

00:12:06interesting history. But what was interesting is you can get into some of the biographies of the mob

00:12:11bosses. And these are very brutal guys that will just kill somebody in a heartbeat. Yet they have also

00:12:19the softer side. And there are people who knew them that said that they were as gentle as a bear and

00:12:24as loving as a mother, you know, these guys. And yet at night, they're, they're just brutally

00:12:31murdering people. And so it's hard to, it's hard to really put somebody into a box and say that the

00:12:37box is all one way or all the other way, because people are very complex.

00:12:41Well, it gets confusing in the mob because they have a code of ethics.

00:12:46Exactly. It's hard. It's hard. They like, get your head around that. Right. Like, wait a minute,

00:12:52you're killing people, but they had a code and they were very loyal to it. Right. And if you broke the

00:12:58code, you got in trouble. So it's like, ah, this is kind of weird. Yeah. So there's all kinds of

00:13:04different things. I know for me, the whole, um, struggle that I've had when it comes to the ministry

00:13:12world. And I, I thought it might be helpful if I back up a little bit, because I don't know that

00:13:20people know where my perspective comes from. So there's things that I've said in some of the past,

00:13:26um, podcasts that don't have contextualization to them. And I share this perspective, but it's not

00:13:33attached to anything. So just for the sake of people that may be tuning in, um, if you know

00:13:39anything about my story, I didn't, I got raised Catholic, then quit going to church, became a

00:13:46Christian at 18. And by 19, I was in the ministry. Um, my, uh, ministry experience, uh, lasted for a

00:13:56few years. Then I was back in the business world. Then I was back in the ministry world and back in the

00:14:00business world. Right. And then of course, uh, as most people would know by now in 1982,

00:14:06Mike Bickle and I started Kansas city fellowship in Kansas city here. Well, again, I'm 25 years old.

00:14:16So at the time I didn't think anything of it in hindsight, I'm almost embarrassed

00:14:22how young and immature I was at the time. Right. Cause you're like, wow,

00:14:27I didn't know what I didn't know. Right. And one of the things that was, um, well, let's put it this

00:14:36way. Solomon in Ecclesiastes talks about with much knowledge comes much pain, you know, for all of our

00:14:45pursuit, you know, guys like you and I who are insatiably curious that drive us to unpack, drill

00:14:53down, get behind the scenes. You know, the, the, the thing that people may not understand about guys

00:15:01like us is that, you know, we have this insatiable desire to want to understand, to get to the bottom.

00:15:10You know, we like to, we want to know why, like, why do you think that way? Why do you believe that?

00:15:17Why? Right. It's like, we were driven by the need to satisfy the why question we, we need to know.

00:15:25Right. Well, unfortunately, and fortunately I have had the most profound revelation and have

00:15:34understandings of things that, um, I'm so grateful for. And at the same time I have suffered unbelievable

00:15:43pain and disillusionment, gut-wrenching things and it's hard, right? So you can imagine, um, it's

00:15:551986, you know, we're in the heyday of Kansas city fellowship, you know, um, it's the time of the moral

00:16:05majority with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and, you know, Francis Schaeffer and all that's going on.

00:16:11This is, and the reason I'm bringing this up is because what people don't understand is history,

00:16:16or maybe you do understand. I, I, that's condescending. So I don't, I shouldn't say that.

00:16:21What is important to understand is that history has this way of repeating itself.

00:16:29One of the reasons like guys like you and I don't get overly, um, what's the British phrase?

00:16:37Are knickers in a twist? Well, maybe I do. Maybe you know, because we've already been there and done

00:16:45that. Right. I remember when I was a little kid, right. I would see all these drama, dramatic

00:16:51things happening. And I go hang out with the old guys and they just didn't seem to be moved, you

00:16:56know, and you'd ask him why. And they go, well, been there, done that. Right. I already saw that back

00:17:0140 years ago. Right. Well, what the current crowd that's all caught up in the Robert Morris,

00:17:08Mike Bickle, you know, uh, what's that, you know, the Texas mess down there with, uh, the,

00:17:16the television station, you know, they all think like, this is the first time this has all happened.

00:17:22Right. Like, Oh my God. You know what I mean? It's like, it's never happened before. Well, no.

00:17:31And let me explain. So it's 1986. Right. And all of a sudden there's a massive scandal as Jimmy

00:17:40Swaggart and Marvin Gorman, two Pentecostal preachers who have big international ministries

00:17:47go to war in Metri, you know, Louisiana. Right. And it comes out that, you know, Jimmy's seeing,

00:17:54they're seeing prostitutes. It's a mess. Like, and I'm 24. No, by this point, he'd say I'd have

00:17:59been 29. So I'm 29 years old and I've got these guys in a, you know, they're in a room, there's

00:18:07meetings. I'm running back and forth between here and Springfield because that's where the assembly

00:18:11of God headquarters are. It's a mess. Right. I mean, of epic proportions. I mean,

00:18:17Jimmy Swaggart had a massive global ministry. So, I mean, it was, it was massive. Right.

00:18:24So I'm in the middle of all that and I'm seeing the human side. Everybody's on the outside looking

00:18:32in, looking at scandal. I'm sitting there with two very broken human beings. And because of the way

00:18:41my personality is and I have an empathic kind of nature to me, I feel bad. Right. Because I see

00:18:49two broken guys that know they failed. Like they blew it and they know they blow it. And now they're

00:18:56trying to figure out what happened. Right. What happened to me? Right. I was you, Bob. You know,

00:19:02I was you at 20 years old wanting to, you know, to change the world and look at me. I'm a, I'm a,

00:19:09I'm a failure in front of the whole world. Right. Fast forward a year later and what ends up

00:19:15happening? We have Jim Baker who ends up getting exposed as having this relationship with Jessica

00:19:23Hahn. Right. And now we have PTL. Right. So the whole day star thing, you know, all the whole

00:19:31Robert Morris, Mike Bickle, I already lived this. I lived this in the 1980s. Yeah. Right. So I'm,

00:19:39I'm, I feel like I'm living in the movie Groundhog Day and not a good one. You know,

00:19:46no, the, the hard part about all of this is people are very complex, as I mentioned. And the,

00:19:53the way in which people are trained to read situations is very black and white, especially

00:19:58especially in these people. And it becomes even more complicated whenever you think about

00:20:03the way in which it turns into a stage persona and they become, I don't know what you call them,

00:20:08super, superheroes of the faith or whatever, because they, they have trained people to see

00:20:14things through a very black or white lens. And a lot of the ways in which they see things,

00:20:20it's so constrained to a box that whenever something happens outside of that box, they don't know what to

00:20:26do. On a, on a very limited scale, I can say it like this in Pentecostalism. It used to be that

00:20:33women were not allowed to cut their hair at all. And now on today's Pentecostal world, you see women

00:20:39with all kinds of new hairdos, but back then they read the passage in what is it? Corinthians second

00:20:46Corinthians about the, the woman's hair is a covering and they read it in a very, very black or

00:20:52white way. Their, their black and white was literally, it says this. So then we do this

00:20:57without playing, applying any thought whatsoever into the culture that Paul was writing to the

00:21:04phrase at the end that says explicitly, but we have no such custom and neither do the churches of

00:21:09God. That part was omitted, but they read that one phrase is black or white. Let the woman's hair

00:21:16belong for her glory. And so it was taken black or white years later, people were allowed to think

00:21:23outside of that box. And so Pentecostal, not all, but a lot of them have adopted a different, more

00:21:29broadened view of this passage. So they're trained doctrinally to be black or white. Well, then what

00:21:35happens is you have a minister who some of them, I'm not going to say all of them, but some of them

00:21:42really do begin with good intentions and end up as a train wreck. And so they start out their

00:21:47ministries that are on fire for God. They've also been trained in this black or white reality.

00:21:53Well, when they become this big superstar, that black and white reality does not apply. And they

00:21:59start to see a little bit outside of that box. And some of them, because they have been manipulated

00:22:05to think in a black or white way, they can't behave themselves properly outside of that box.

00:22:12It's like another good example. If you're, if you're a parent and you over correct, over guard

00:22:20your children, and then suddenly they experienced some other child that has freedoms that you don't

00:22:26allow, they go hog wild, right? Well, some of these ministers, they're constrained in that box. And

00:22:31then once they step into the, you know, the superstar realm, they start to see over the edges of that box

00:22:37and they don't know how to behave themselves. Well, as a result of what happened to me in the 1980s,

00:22:44I also had a lot of pro athletes, some very high profile business executives, you know, people in

00:22:53the geopolitical world. And then, of course, because what was happening in Kansas City went

00:22:59all over the world, I had a lot of these people showing up. That's where the whole concept of the

00:23:07Joseph Company began to develop. So years later, I ended up starting my own organization called

00:23:15Joseph Company Global. But what Joseph Company Global became was a consulting counseling business.

00:23:24And so, um, I have to be very, very careful here because, um, I know things that need to stay in the

00:23:33counseling space, right? Yeah. But, um, so people understand where I'm coming from. I have, well,

00:23:46to be honest with you, I guess if there's a word picture I could use to describe it,

00:23:51I have lived in the sewer of the church world. That's my world. Wow. The men that come to me,

00:23:59they come to me at a place in their life, usually in their forties where they're utterly broken.

00:24:07And many of them have had some sort of a moral failure that not anybody even knows.

00:24:14And what happened of course, is that I didn't ask for this. It just landed in my lap, right? I didn't

00:24:22ask for Jimmy Swaggart or Marvin Gorman thing to happen. Didn't ask for the Jim Baker thing to happen,

00:24:28right? I didn't ask for any of this. It just happened. Um, I didn't ask for all these executives

00:24:35or whatever. It just, but what I realized was that, um, it, you know, stardom is such a two dimensional

00:24:49view of life, right? You know, you see these athletes on television, you see the guy in the pulpit,

00:24:55you see the actor in the movie or the musician on the stage, and you have this two dimensional

00:25:02view of them and it's all based on their gifting, right? And so they become idols, they become heroes,

00:25:10they become stars, right? They, there's a, there's, there's an impression, an image, right? I mean,

00:25:15we live in this image driven world, but behind that as a human being and in every single case,

00:25:23a very broken one. And so, because God made me filled with empathy and compassion,

00:25:31I started caring more about the man than the ministry, right? It's like, I don't really care

00:25:39who you are or I don't really care what everybody thinks of you. My question is, who are you?

00:25:47Right. And what was interesting was, is that I began to discover some things. So when I talk about

00:25:53my perspective about ministry and what's going on, people just have to understand that it's from a

00:26:02very different place than everyone else. Not many people have my point of view, because they haven't

00:26:11been in my world, right? So that's not to make that elite, because it's not, it's ugly, like it's

00:26:18messy. Like there's nothing fun about it. It's, it's exhausting. But one of the things that I asked

00:26:28these guys, because, you know, again, we're, we're why guys, right? One of the questions that I asked

00:26:34most every one of these guys, when they come in that space, why did you go to the ministry in the

00:26:39first place? Because what's said from the pulpit, right? Which everybody wants to hear? Well, God called

00:26:50me. Yeah. Right. That's the, that's the, you know, the, the facade God called me. And I'm not debating

00:27:01or suggesting that he didn't, but there's always something deeper. And I don't want to oversimplify

00:27:11this, but just because I don't want this to turn into some sort of deep psychological session here.

00:27:17I ended up realizing that there were really two primary reasons for why guys went into the ministry.

00:27:24The first one was they were trying to slay their own inner demons. They were very aware of their

00:27:34brokenness. Right. And thought that if they could put themselves in the place of ministry, right? Where

00:27:42every day they're focusing on the word of God and building the church and all that, they could either

00:27:48slay or in most cases cage their inner demons. So a lot of what it comes out, right? Right now,

00:28:00you know, you're, you're hearing all these things. Well, they weren't able to cage their inner demons.

00:28:05They knew about this when they were young. Right. And so they thought if I could go into the ministry,

00:28:14if I could be in a place where I'm praying and worshiping and preaching the word and all of this

00:28:20kind of stuff, I can keep these demons at bay. Often when you see dogmatic preaching,

00:28:28you know what's actually going on? They're fighting their own demons on the pole, standing on the stage,

00:28:37looking at you, screaming at you. There's a demon looking at them, you know,

00:28:41their own little inner demons going, you're worthless. Right. And so they're fighting

00:28:47through and you're getting all that energy on the other side, but you don't see what they're

00:28:51fighting through in their own head. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started

00:28:57or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic

00:29:03and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on

00:29:09William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the

00:29:15website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:29:22John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

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00:29:46you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for

00:29:52your support. I know exactly what you're talking about with the inner demons. Although I had a funny

00:29:57conversation with the person who had escaped the cult and he said, John, I no longer think of the

00:30:04world in that term where there are these literal demons out there. And I said, no, man, that's a common

00:30:08phrase. Inner demons is referring to the things that you struggle with and make that in the open for

00:30:14anybody who doesn't understand that. But where it gets really complicated for me is this. I understand the

00:30:22counseling aspect and I understand struggles. Every human has their own struggles, whether they want

00:30:27to admit it or not. There are things that they fight. You know, there are some things that there are

00:30:32levels of these inner demons. There are levels of problems that people have. Some of them are somewhat

00:30:39benign. Like I, I come from an Irish background and for a long period of time, I really, really struggled

00:30:47with temper, which was common among the Irish. I had an Irish temper, right? And it really took me to

00:30:53understand how it was on the other side of that temper and, and understand and relate to how people

00:30:59experience the temper that I began to start to overcome this. And that's a mild thing. You know,

00:31:05I can get angry at somebody and it might hurt their feelings. Take it to the other extreme. There are

00:31:12people who prey upon other people and that's where this gets really tricky. Some of those

00:31:17people, like you said, may have struggled for decades with the same thing, but there's also

00:31:23levels of progression in that struggle. So where the gray area falls for me, it's understood that

00:31:33people like Bickle has struggled with this for decades and where it gets really problematic is some

00:31:40of the leadership did know it, but what we don't know and what really hasn't been announced very much is

00:31:47to what extent was that and what level in the progression of the predatory nature was he whenever

00:31:53they understood it. So it's not just, it's not black or white and is he all good and is he all bad?

00:32:00And even worse, it's not black and white as what was his problem initially and what did it become?

00:32:06And how much did, how much were people aware of this? So for me, it gets that complicated. And then

00:32:14try to think that from a counseling and church leadership perspective, especially in a cult where

00:32:20you're being told that this is the closest thing to God that we have on earth today is this guy.

00:32:27So now their perspective is skewed because he can do no wrong. And at what point did they have

00:32:33enough information to cut it off and stop it? So you've got all of these questions, some of which

00:32:38may never be answered.

00:32:40Okay. I'll let me address that, but I want to add my second point to why he goes in the ministry and

00:32:45then I'll circle back and address Mike's situation. Cause I think there's a reason why that happened.

00:32:51The second reason why I discovered men went in the ministry was the search for significance.

00:33:02There was this need inside to feel significant, to feel like their life mattered, that, you know,

00:33:12that they had a role to play. Right. So the, and the reason why this is important and the reason why

00:33:19in my counseling sessions with these guys, we, we had to drill down to this level, right?

00:33:26It's like, what is your motive here? Because if we don't deal with this root issue, right,

00:33:33everything else is going to be tainted and you're never going to, you're going to be constantly

00:33:38struggling. Right. In other words, you, we, we got to deal with this, but it's amazing how many

00:33:44people go into ministry in this search for significance or another way is say this affirmation

00:33:52and it's two places. They want affirmation. They go in, in the ministry, believing they're

00:33:57going to get affirmation from God. Right. And they go into it because they're going to receive

00:34:04affirmation from people.

00:34:06So without, again, we could be here for days. There's an addiction, there's an emotional addiction

00:34:17dynamic in play here. And that's what they don't understand. Okay. Let me circle back to your thing

00:34:22about Mike. I saw some of these, um, um, I, I didn't understand all of Mike's or I was too young.

00:34:36Remember it's like, you know, I'm, this is 86, 87. I'm in the middle of just getting exposed to this

00:34:43world by 89 and 89. I was out of there. Right. So I really didn't have an opportunity to,

00:34:51to, um, I wish I, what I know now, I wish I would have known then I just didn't. Right. I was just too

00:35:01young, but I had tried to address some root issues with Mike and got nowhere because every time that I

00:35:11would try to drill down on a particular behavior that I thought was unhelpful and problematic,

00:35:19he would always respond back with some super spiritual lingo and spin the whole thing and,

00:35:28and make an excuse for why that thing that I thought was dysfunctional was actually a God thing.

00:35:34I didn't understand until in the nineties, even what the concept of narcissism was.

00:35:45Right. So I didn't know about narcissism in the eighties. I never even heard the word,

00:35:50you know, that I can remember, but the reason why, to your point, you get in to these situations where

00:35:58you can't even correct people is because there's this narcissism that's taken root right in their

00:36:06soul. So every time I would suggest Mike, look at something he always operated. Well, but I'm God's

00:36:15chosen. Right. So therefore, and it was an excuse or he wouldn't manipulate or whatever. Right. And so

00:36:25he couldn't, I don't ever remember him taking responsibility for anything. Yeah. Which was

00:36:33really, I didn't figure it out until later making, wait a minute. I don't ever remember him going,

00:36:38that's on me. I'm sorry. Yeah. Ever.

00:36:46So where this happened, so I don't get narcissists. They don't come talk to me.

00:36:52Yeah. I'm somewhat incompatible with narcissists.

00:36:58Yes. Well, I have an aversion towards it right now, but more than that, narcissists never think

00:37:05they need help. Right. So they're never going to come and seek you out because whatever you tell

00:37:12them, they've got a reason why you're wrong. Right. So what I get is the guys that really

00:37:19have hit the wall. Um, you know, there's a thing out there that, you know, with men, you and I've

00:37:28heard it all the time, you know, you call it a midlife crisis. And it's interesting because it

00:37:33always happens after 40. Typically, I should say always, typically it happens at 40.

00:37:3940. Why 40? And the reason is, or part of the reason is that as men, our bodies start going through

00:37:51a huge transformation and we start losing the strength of our youth. And what ends up happening

00:38:00is, is we don't, we, we, we lose the strength to keep up the facade. Yeah. Right. In other words,

00:38:11what ends up happening is you, you get tired of pretending. And as you start letting these walls

00:38:19down, right. And you start facing your, you know, it's like suddenly, you know, the caged inner demons

00:38:26of your youth or whatever that are way back in the dark recess, recesses of your soul,

00:38:33they escape because you can't keep them back anymore. It's like you're, you lost the ability

00:38:38to tame your, you know, your tigers. And I see this all the time because the guys that come in,

00:38:45they're just worn out. So I, and this is the phrase that you're like, this is like every single

00:38:52time you hear the same thing. I just can't do this anymore. Right. And that's when, you know,

00:38:58it's like, okay, I know where you're at. And guess what? You know, I tell them all,

00:39:03welcome to being a man. Welcome to humanity. You're not alone in this. We all have gone through this.

00:39:10It's just, you're in a unique situation and the dynamics involved and you can't doing anymore

00:39:17have all kinds of repercussions. Then there's another piece to this. I know I'm rambling here,

00:39:23but I just want to get all this in and then let you just come back and give your two cents on this.

00:39:28There's another problem here. Not only are all these different people pursuing something to get

00:39:37significance and adoration and all that. We have a whole congregation. We have whole congregations of

00:39:45people who, because of their nature want heroes. They want stars. They want somebody other,

00:39:57you know, which is the word holy, right? Separate other. They want somebody that's the,

00:40:02they want the man of God. They want the guy who's overcome, right? They want to follow somebody.

00:40:08And so what ends up happening is they put all this expectation on this person to perform,

00:40:17to be the hero, to be the guy with all the answers, to be the guy that can fix everything,

00:40:24to be the guy that's going to inspire us to, right? And what ends up happening is, is when they come see

00:40:31me that they've reached this place or I just can't do this anymore. I can't live up to everyone's

00:40:39expectations. What's gets even bizarre is when you drill down and you ask them, well, why'd you have

00:40:45that affair? You know what it really was? They wanted to escape the jail that they'd built for themselves

00:40:53and everybody else to put them in. And it's like, I just got to break out.

00:40:58Yeah. I can't do this anymore.

00:41:01You know, psychology fascinates me more than history. Even I love reading about psychology

00:41:08and trying to understand it. I probably, if I had my life to do over, I'd probably become a counselor

00:41:13or psychologist. But one of the problems that we have and really amplifies what we're seeing here

00:41:21is the deliverance ministry culture that was created. See, William Branham,

00:41:28and Gordon Lindsay, they created this notion that they could be like Harry Potters of the world and

00:41:33go around, just cast a spell, and then a demon flees you. But you and I, who were near and close to

00:41:40people who had significant problems in leadership, you understand that deliverance doesn't always mean

00:41:46what it is projected to mean from the pulpit. Sometimes deliverance mean you're coping with something.

00:41:53Deliverance really means, you know, if you're a Christian and you believe God can heal and help

00:41:59you, it doesn't necessarily mean that he takes away some of your struggles. It just means he gives you

00:42:04the power to overcome some of your struggles. And so, a good counselor will help continue a person down

00:42:12the right path. And then as, as the struggles intensify, they had, you know, continue to help

00:42:18even more to, to keep them on that path. But what you're describing is somebody who's been on the path

00:42:25for a very long time, and they get just so burnt out that they can't contain their own struggles.

00:42:33They really need counseling. They really need help. But unfortunately, you're in this

00:42:40new apostolic reformation deliverance culture that is, some of the people who have the struggles

00:42:46inwardly are telling the people that they can be delivered forever from the same struggles that they

00:42:52themselves have. Robert Slearden is one, you know, I mentioned him earlier. It's the same exact example.

00:42:58He's trying to cast the demon of homosexuality for some homosexuality out of this guy, while he

00:43:04himself is trying to keep that demon contained, right? So they're projecting this false persona

00:43:11is the problem. And now complicate that even further. And this is where I was headed before. I don't think

00:43:18my thoughts came up, came out very well. But so you've got this culture where leader is trying to

00:43:24suppress problems in a deliverance ministry culture, where they're not supposed to have

00:43:29problems in the first place, surrounded by a bunch of people who are in that culture that are trying

00:43:35to be the quote, unquote, spiritual guides for the spiritual guider. And whenever they see the

00:43:43problems and the struggles happening, well, he's got the deliverance power. Can he not cast out his own

00:43:49demons? Well, yes, he can. He said that he can. And so the guardrails all come down. There isn't a

00:43:56checks and balances scenario in this type of culture. That's why I go, I've gone to extremes

00:44:05to try to publish some and document some of the harebrained nonsense in these deliverance ministries,

00:44:10because it is a fantasy culture. It really doesn't exist in the way that they say that it does.

00:44:15And just as a point of clarification, when I use the word demons, I'm not always talking about a

00:44:20little literal spirit. I'm talking about the things that torment them, right? That can come

00:44:27from the way you were raised and whatever. But when you say, I picture Tom and Jerry with the

00:44:32little red devil on this side and the angel on this side. Well, it's hard for me. And the reason why I

00:44:41ended up doing the whole Joseph company global thing was I just felt so bad for all these guys.

00:44:48Because for one, the ministry world amongst ministers is highly competitive.

00:44:55You know, it's like on the outside, it all looks real spiritual, but behind the scenes,

00:44:59they're like, you know, they're like stealing each other's people and trying to outdo each other. I mean,

00:45:05we've had, you know, previous discussions on these episodes of the dueling prophets and the

00:45:10one-upsmanship, right? And so the ministry world, you know, if there's a weakness there,

00:45:17you can really get caught up in that. So therefore, it's not really a safe place,

00:45:24right? You saw what happened with the Gorman and Swagger, right? The minute one guy found out the

00:45:30other guy had an issue. He used it for leverage, right? It's like, they were jealous of each other

00:45:37because they were competing for dominance, not only in New Orleans, but in the assembly of God.

00:45:45So there was like this competition going on. That's why it all came out. It didn't come out

00:45:50out of righteousness. It came out of competition, right? So, you know, there's that. So it's

00:46:00it's not been real safe for guys in the ministry to come forward and say, I got issues. That's why

00:46:07they don't come see me until they've crashed, right? It's like, until they have the rack,

00:46:15you know, and they got nothing else to lose, right? I mean, I can't tell you how many guys

00:46:21have said to me, I'm, you know, after they got outed, I'm so relieved, which is so weird, right?

00:46:29Because you would, you know, the congregational people are all sitting out there horrified,

00:46:35right? And it's scandalous and blah, blah, blah, blah. But the guy who actually gets exposed is

00:46:41telling me, God, I feel relief, right? It's really sad pressure anymore. Well, isn't that sad?

00:46:48See, that's how exactly how I looked at it. I started crying the first time I heard it. I went,

00:46:52oh, my God, I didn't think this through. You're absolutely right. I can see how this is freeing.

00:47:00It's like, yeah, I can be me now. Guess what? I'm a failure. Okay. Welcome to my world, right?

00:47:09And so anyway, so again, you know, we're talking in generalizations, but I hope it's helpful for

00:47:16people to understand, you know, our perspective. Now, I need to say something here, but we need to

00:47:24get a woman involved in this conversation, because it's not, we're always talking about the men that fail,

00:47:32because of the fact that they're typically in the leadership roles in the church world.

00:47:39But there's a whole side of brokenness from the female side of this equation that I'm a little

00:47:45uncomfortable addressing, though I have a great deal of experience with it, given where I'm at. But right

00:47:54now, it's sort of, let's dump on the men. You know, it's the men's fault. It's not so cut and dry. There are

00:48:03things that I know and have seen, but I'd rather for a woman, you know, but it's hard because there's

00:48:11a sister code. And in order for a woman to come on and talk about the perspective

00:48:17of brokenness on the female side of this equation, they have to break the sister code.

00:48:22Yeah.

00:48:23Yeah.

00:48:23And so, you know, I'll get annihilated if I go over on that side, you know what I mean?

00:48:31I won't go there with you, man.

00:48:34Yeah. It's just brokenness all the way around is where my point is here. This is just not,

00:48:40you know, a problem with guys in the ministry. We're just all broken. I mean, it's, you know,

00:48:44it's, we're getting back to Romans again, right? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

00:48:51Yeah. I won't go too far with it because people would just pounce on it, but I understand exactly

00:48:57what you're saying. There's the human element. I think that's the best way to say it. There's the

00:49:02human element and both sides, whether it's even in the cases of a predator, you have to sometimes

00:49:08think through how, how all of that came to be, you know, he, I really feel sorry for Mike Bickle.

00:49:15I know I'll probably get hate mail for that, but whenever you think about the fact that had he got

00:49:21counseling and help early on in the eighties, think of the good that he could have done for the world,

00:49:27but he didn't get the help that he needed. And his, he basically had no checks and balances.

00:49:32And so it progressed in such a bad way that it turned into a mass and he's not the only one.

00:49:38There are, there are many, many others. And so I, well, I kind of had, so what's the key to that?

00:49:44Right. So now as we're old guys looking back, if I was listening to us, the question I'd be asking,

00:49:53well, how do you know? And what I would say is the telltale sign is do they exhibit humility and

00:50:02teachableness? Right. In other words, what I discovered with Mike, he was

00:50:08unteachable and he was never wrong. It was all right. And so for me now, as you know, an older

00:50:18guy, the first thing I'm looking for when I'm interacting with these guys is, is there a

00:50:24teachableness? Like, are they approaching this from a place of I'm, I'm here to understand.

00:50:29I want to learn. I I'm, I'm willing to open my own soul up and explore this. How can I get better?

00:50:36I want to be a better person. Right. When you see that it's just enduring to me. It's just,

00:50:41then that out, what that does for me is it unlocks the compassion and the discernment in me. It's very,

00:50:46I don't understand exactly how it all works, but if I start caring about you, I will start

00:50:53tuning into things. Right. It's like compassion is the key in my soul from locking whatever spiritual

00:51:01gifting that I have. But when I don't see that teachableness, I walk, I go, this is pointless,

00:51:09right? This is, this is, this is, that's a no go zone for me. You know, I'll, I'll be your,

00:51:16I mean, I'll be your friend. You know what I mean? I'll, I'll talk to you, but I will never

00:51:21co-labor with you. I will never work with you. Yeah. And I think that's what, so to finish my

00:51:28thought, what you're saying is along the same lines I was headed. I feel sorry for him. I think

00:51:36had it been in a situation where there were proper checks and balances in place, and it wasn't this

00:51:41deliverance ministry culture, I think people could have recognized that there are people who are fit

00:51:47for leadership and there are people who are not. And the root of the problem is exactly that. If you

00:51:54look beyond all of the problems that happened, the grooming, all of this, just look to the simple

00:51:59leadership. He should have been shut off immediately. And had he been a member with a good group of

00:52:06people to help him with his inner problems, it would have never escalated to the place that it became.

00:52:11And you can apply that same exact philosophy to each one of these people who are making the

00:52:17headlines right now. Many of them were not fit to be leaders in the first place, but they've been in

00:52:21a system that has really allowed them to flourish with no checks and balances. One of the things in the

00:52:30book that I tried to point out is, is that while in the moment right now, it's easy to cast stones at the

00:52:38leaders that have failed. We in the congregation have to take some responsibility because we're the ones

00:52:46that have demanded or wanted the star. You know, we've wanted, you know, the hero, right? That's,

00:52:56we've created this expectation. And in some ways we've created this environment for all these guys to live

00:53:04up to, right? They feel this intense pressure to perform for you, to keep you happy. And so I think

00:53:14we have to be very, very careful when pointing fingers to realize, you know, it's, yes, there's

00:53:18brokenness in the leadership, but there's equally a brokenness in those of us that are sitting in

00:53:24those chairs and what we're demanding from these guys. You know, I think that's the point that I

00:53:32know I'm going to get all kinds of hate mail for saying that I, I feel sorry for Mike Bickle, but

00:53:37I think that's the part, what you just mentioned. I think that's the part that people don't grasp

00:53:41for every leader that we see fallen, their sins are being widely published to the world. And they're at

00:53:49the very bottom of, you know, a hell that they themselves created. I'll just say it like that.

00:53:55But think about the ones who did get help, who got help early, who still struggle with certain things,

00:54:03were able to contain and overcome, and then became great leaders and made great change.

00:54:09I'm not, I'm not going to, I can't pull any names off the top of my head right now, but

00:54:13not everybody who became a successful leader has always had a perfect past. You'll find people who

00:54:20have, who have changed and reformed and that's why counseling exists. And I really think had the

00:54:27counseling been involved early, I think a lot of things would have changed. Okay. So let's unpack

00:54:33this a little bit. Cause one of the things I pointed out in my book that was a bit shocking to me

00:54:38was the Harvard Business School's research on narcissists. Because in the counseling world,

00:54:45that's considered a negative attribute. Yeah. What they discovered for fortune 500 companies

00:54:51and big organizations, it's an attribute. But is it an attribute that is positive in religion?

00:54:57That's really the question. Well, that see, now we're getting down to, cause here's, but here's the

00:55:01problem. And this is what I was trying to get to at the back end of my book is the problem is,

00:55:08is that we've modeled our church culture identical to the business world. So back up a little bit

00:55:16after world war two, well, before world war two, 65% of our population was rural, right? So you had

00:55:24relationships and traditional values after world war two, my dad's generation through the GI bill,

00:55:32got all went, got educated and they started businesses. Those businesses grew like crazy.

00:55:37And what started happening was, is you, for the first time packed up and moved because your company

00:55:44sent you places, right? So suddenly the relational dynamic of staying within a small geographic area

00:55:51got split, you know, and families were spread out all across the country. Right. And so what ended up

00:55:59happening was, is that it created this whole different culture, but the model for business,

00:56:06right? So what did these guys use when all these guys went into the military world war two, they were

00:56:1216, 17, 18, 20 year olds, right? Who came from the room. What did they learn? They learned the military

00:56:21top down structure, right? Efficiencies, all that. What did they do when they went into the business

00:56:29world? They built, they used the same model in the business world. That's why you have presidents

00:56:36and vice president, right? All the way there. You had ranks, right? Just like you had in the military.

00:56:41Well, then what happened in the 1980s is we got into church growth and what did we do? We ended up

00:56:48bringing in business consultants who took all the same models and methods, put Christian verbiage

00:56:54on it and taught everybody how to grow their churches. And now we have a corporate church

00:57:01model. So all these big ministries that you see are built on a model that's business related, right?

00:57:09Therefore, the narcissist guys are at the head of all these massive church organizations.

00:57:16When I read that in your book, I was like, I was shaking my fist shouting, yes, somebody finally

00:57:21gets it, man. This is a business. This is not a religion.

00:57:25Yeah. So, you know, there's a reaction going on right now. George Barnett addresses it in some of

00:57:34his research. What's happening more and more is our generation, he calls us the Duns. And the Duns

00:57:43are basically people who kind of got saved in the seventies, the Jesus people movement,

00:57:47that whole thing. They've just been through the whole show. They've, they've grown up in the

00:57:54corporate ministry world. They've seen the shows, the superstars and, you know, and they got,

00:58:01you know, their thrills. They went to the meetings, you know, got all excited. Right. And then at the end

00:58:07of it ended up feeling empty and realized, you know, where life really matters with my friends.

00:58:16Right. Who are the people that I've been walking with for 40 years? We've raised our kids together.

00:58:22We've now have grandkids. You know what I mean? What we care about more than anyone, anything else

00:58:29is each other. And what's happened is in the most interesting way, because of disillusionment

00:58:35on the big corporate church model, they've ended up going back into more of a home church model,

00:58:43right? Which is more relationally driven, which, oh, by the way, was exactly what the early church was.

00:58:50Right. It, it didn't become a big business model until after the 300s.

00:58:56Yeah. Right. And until the Roman emperors decided to give the religious guys all the big

00:59:03idol temples and all of the big, right. Right. And, and this whole hierarchy develops. And then we

00:59:10got a Holy Roman emperor now, and we have all these, these things. And that's, it set this whole model

00:59:16in place. And then we had a reformation, which basically kept the same structural top down model,

00:59:22right? We just changed the theology a little bit, a little bit. You know what I mean? And this thing

00:59:30has just been perpetuated. Yeah. And so here we are now, and guess what's happening? You know what I

00:59:37mean? It's that whole same thing again, where people are just going, this is emptiness.

00:59:42Yeah. People have lost the true reality of what the religion was intended to be. And what's

00:59:49interesting is if you just simply open the Bible and read it, it's very plain to read right there.

00:59:54The people are the church, the, the, the old temples that they had in Jerusalem, all of that was

01:00:00coming to an end as they transitioned into the new covenant went into the gospel. And I could go into

01:00:07a sermon. I won't, but the transition that was happening, Jesus was telling the people quite

01:00:12literally the kingdom is within you. And I think that's the big thing that people miss. They,

01:00:18in this type of religion, this deliverance culture, the kingdom isn't within them. The kingdom is

01:00:24usually within the person who's on the stage.

01:00:27Well, I'm of the perspective, get back to our word, that Christianity is actually profoundly simple

01:00:34and that humans, because of their need for significance have complicated it. Because when

01:00:41you go back and you just look at what Jesus taught, it all can be summarized to your point,

01:00:49our love for one another. How will they know? Remember that? How will they know by your love for one

01:00:56another? And almost everything he teaches, it's relational, right? It's how do we relate to this?

01:01:01How do we relate to that? You know what I mean? And somehow the whole relational dynamic

01:01:07got lost. And I know there's a lot of churches out there really struggling to bring that back.

01:01:13So, you know, this isn't kind of a slam on that, but even, even with all of that, there's still this

01:01:21need or this desire, something in people we want to start, you know, it's still this attraction to go

01:01:28to the church in town that's got the best worship and the, you know, the best, you know, um, you know,

01:01:35tech stuff happening on Sunday, right. And have all the programs and it's kind of like buy your

01:01:41ticket to Disneyland, right? We got, look at all the rides they've got, right? And I can understand

01:01:47that when you're a parent with kids, right? It's like, yes, you know what I mean? My kids want to go

01:01:52have fun so I can see the attraction to it, but there's a whole lot that gets missed and it creates

01:02:00so many vulnerabilities. And the guys that are up at the top, I mean, they're in the stratosphere and

01:02:09more times than not, those guys are profoundly lonely, are living in, you know, it's like,

01:02:16I always think of Rapunzel, you know, that whole story of Rapunzel is like up in the tower, right?

01:02:22And it's like that there's so many guys, this is my experience. I can only tell you my perspective

01:02:27from, but there's so many guys that live in a tower isolated from real relationships.

01:02:35Right. I laugh because whenever I see people on the YouTube feeds, they, they're in this world where

01:02:40these deliverance ministry cultures has created these stage personas and they're looking for people

01:02:46to follow them really, rather than following Christ. And, you know, the Holy Spirit was sent

01:02:52to lead and guide us. You're not supposed to have the guy on the platform. And I always laugh when I

01:02:56see the comments, I don't know if you see them or not on YouTube, but they say, you, John, you're trying

01:03:01to create a following. And I'm like, you're watching this on YouTube. You've seen my face. There's no way I'm

01:03:06make a following with a face like this, but it's not about that. It's not about trying to lead people

01:03:14into the kingdom. Jesus said, the kingdom is within you. And if you can just simply read that,

01:03:20I think that in of itself sums up everything that we're trying to say in this entire podcast,

01:03:26you know, you have the power within yourselves. You just need to go in deep inside your soul and find

01:03:31it. And I think you'll be surprised at how much easier that is. But anyway, we could talk forever.

01:03:38Thanks for doing this. Well, this has been interesting. I've opened up, I guess, and shown

01:03:44a side of myself that most don't know about, but hopefully it's helpful. And we'll give people

01:03:50a little bit more understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. And even though I know there's a

01:03:57lot of anger out there, there's, these are humans, broken humans, you know. So I love Bob Dylan so

01:04:05much. Everything is broken.

01:04:09Well, I think it was helpful. And if not, we'll get some comments that we can address next time.

01:04:14So all right, we'll do it.

01:04:16Yeah. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:04:20You can find us at william-brannum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,

01:04:25you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle,

01:04:31and Audible.

01:04:50And you can find us at william-brannum.com. For more information, visit our website at william-brannum.com.

Behind the Curtain: The Inner Demons Driving Hero Worship - Bob Scott - Detangling IHOPKC - 317

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