Ministerial statement on The Supreme Court’s Judgment in Relation to Gender featuring questions from Maggie Chapman, Ash Regan, Jamie Greene and Murdo Fraser
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00:00Thank you, Chapman. To be followed by Alex Cole-Hamilton.
00:02Thank you. Last weekend, thousands of trans people and their friends and allies gather across the UK,
00:09including on the streets of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee and Aberdeen.
00:13Trans people want to be able to live their lives like any of us, without fear of prejudice or violence.
00:19But they are concerned about how their lives will be affected, including access to health care and other essential services.
00:25I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's comments about advancing equality of women, girls and the LGBTQI plus community.
00:33But what further assurances can she provide today that the dignity and safety of trans people will be upheld
00:40and that they will have access to the services and facilities they need to participate fully in daily life?
00:46Cabinet Secretary.
00:48Thank you, President and Officer.
00:49President and Officer, we should all be able to live without prejudice and violence in our society.
00:57It does no one any favours if there is prejudice, violence or indeed even just a threat of violence,
01:04as we discuss particularly sensitive issues.
01:07I said in my answer to Emma Roddick, it's important that we recognise the trans and non-binary community
01:13as being our friends, our neighbours, members of our family.
01:17That's how I will continue my work as Minister with responsibility for equalities.
01:24Now, of course, the Scottish Government, with the acceptance of the Supreme Court judgment,
01:29will have to look at policies, practices and procedures across government.
01:34That may mean that services and facilities may have to be delivered in a different way in some aspects,
01:40but it is important that everyone has access to services and facilities,
01:45and that's an important point that we will continue to consider forward.
01:49Ash Regan, to be followed by Jamie Green.
01:51Thank you, President and Officer.
01:52We all owe for Women's Scotland and the many people that supported them a huge debt of gratitude,
01:59and one of them is in the gallery with us today.
02:02By contrast, this Parliament and this Government have let the women of Scotland down badly.
02:09They lectured us about tone, including again today, and patronised us,
02:15whilst at the same time giving away women's hard-won rights.
02:20This Parliament and this Government turned away as women's reputations were being trashed.
02:28Women were being suspended or hounded out of their jobs simply for stating that sex is immutable.
02:33And they refused to listen when women were being harmed in single-sex spaces, services and sports.
02:42Politicians that did not stand up for women should hang their heads in shame.
02:48How did this Parliament and this Government get this so wrong and let Scottish women down so badly?
03:02And if I can contradict the Cabinet Secretary, I would say there should be no more delay in acting on this,
03:08because Scottish women have waited long enough.
03:11Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.
03:15Thank you, President and Officer.
03:17I would hope that we could all agree that tone is important in this.
03:21I have heard from members today about the fears, the concerns of both activists who have taken this...
03:32I'm sorry, Presiding Officer, I'm slightly struggling to know if Miss...
03:38I was going to say if Miss Regan wanted intervention, but I've just remembered it's a statement.
03:41But I'm happy to try and answer her questions if she will let me.
03:47I think it is important that we will look at the tone of all of this.
03:52And we've heard today about the concerns about threats and intimidation to both women who took forward this case
04:02and also threats and intimidation towards the trans and non-binary community.
04:09That's why the tone is important, because it's important for everybody involved in this.
04:12We've also always, as a government, respected single-sex spaces and respected the exemptions that are within the Equality Act.
04:26And it's important that we move forward again on that basis.
04:30And I can reassure the member that there is not a delay.
04:33The work is conturning.
04:35But I hope she would also recognise that the HRC have an important role to play in this.
04:40And that's why what they have to say on this, both in terms of what they may be able to say on Thursday,
04:46on an initial meeting, and their guidance that will follow, is so exceptionally important.
04:52Amy Green, to be followed by Murdo Fraser.
04:54Thank you, President Officer.
04:55I appreciate that this debate does raise many emotive issues and has very strong views on all sides.
05:03And I think that is to be accepted and respected as well.
05:07But I hope that whatever one's views on this debate, we all accept that at the heart of it lies people.
05:13Human beings who are our fellow Scots.
05:16Those who vote for us and those who don't.
05:18But it's also true that gender recognition certificates have been issued in Scotland for nearly two decades.
05:24Whilst it's a relatively small group of people, many of those holders of those certificates will now be wondering
05:29what legal rights these certificates still offer them, if any at all.
05:32So can I ask specifically, and on a technical level, if the Scottish Government is willing to undertake any legal advice or analysis
05:39or offer any guidance to holders of these certificates as to their future and their day-to-day lives?
05:45Cabinet Secretary.
05:45Can I welcome Jamie Green to his new position within this chamber?
05:53And I think it's important, again, that he talks very powerfully about at the heart of this is people.
06:00And I think as we go through this discussion, regardless of people's views on this and regardless of their views before the Supreme Court reached its judgment,
06:10it has reached its judgment, we must move to implementation and we must do so always bearing in mind,
06:16as he rightly says we should, that people are at the heart of everything that we do.
06:21When it comes to gender recognition certificates, I think I mentioned in my previous answers and statements,
06:27the important parts of the Supreme Court judgment, such as paragraph 100, that talked particularly about gender recognition certificates.
06:35He knows, well, I know that the 2004 Act was a piece that was passed by Westminster.
06:45It has been there now for some time.
06:48It is important that we now reflect on what is in the judgment from the Supreme Court about still the importance of gender recognition certificates
06:57and also for the Supreme Court's statements around the rights of the trans community still being protected within the Equality Act due to gender reassignment.
07:13Myrdo Fraser, to be followed by Sue Webber.
07:15Thank you, presenting officer.
07:16The position of NHS Fife in relation to the Sandy Peggy Employment Tribunal
07:21must now be entirely unsustainable in light of the Supreme Court judgment.
07:27Like me, the Cabinet Secretary will have constituents in five thousands of individuals
07:31waiting too long for vital treatments because NHS Fife is starved of resources
07:37and yet they are spending what must now be hundreds of thousands of pounds in legal costs defending the indefensible.
07:44Isn't it time the Scottish Government instructed them to throw in the towel and stop wasting our money?
07:51Cabinet Secretary.
07:54As Myrdo Fraser well knows that this is a matter between the employer NHS Fife and the employees.
08:00It is subject to ongoing judicial proceedings in the Employment Tribunal
08:03and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on such a live case.