At today's Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, Sen. John Kennedy (R-LA) questioned Dr. Sudip Parikh, Chief Executive Officer and Executive Publisher of Science.
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00:00Senator Kennedy.
00:06Dr. Parikh, am I saying that right?
00:09You are.
00:12Do you know anybody who's against biomedical research?
00:18I do not know anybody that's against biomedical research,
00:20but I know some- It's like being against children,
00:23isn't it?
00:25It is.
00:26It's like being against world peace, isn't it?
00:32It is.
00:33It's like being against golden retrievers, isn't it?
00:39There are some people that argue there.
00:41Okay.
00:43Well, let's get that out of the way.
00:46I want to ask you about NIH.
00:53I love NIH.
00:54I think they do extraordinary work.
00:56Yes, sir.
00:58But isn't it a fact if NIH assigns way too much money for overhead,
01:08that that money comes out of the basic research, isn't that the case?
01:13Senator, both those things are providing funds for research.
01:17And I agree with you that we need to make the administrative burden and the cost associated with it
01:23as low as possible, because we do want as much to go to research.
01:25Well, why can't NIH live with 15 percent overhead?
01:28Yeah.
01:29Senator, we have had a partnership that's been going on for 75 years in this country.
01:33Yes, sir.
01:34But why can't NIH live with 15 percent overhead?
01:38At this point, what that would do is actually turn institutions like the ones we've heard about here,
01:43it would actually make it to where they are laying off researchers and the support folks who are supporting that work.
01:49Well, the Gates Foundation, when they make grants, they limit overhead to 10 percent, don't they?
01:55They do, sir, but that is apples to oranges because they count different things in the overhead.
01:58And the Roberts-Woods-Johnson Foundation limits overhead to 12 percent, don't they?
02:03They do.
02:03Again, apples to oranges because they count different things.
02:05Isn't it a fact that the universities that receive the most money from NIH also have the biggest endowments?
02:15I haven't checked that, but it probably is true, Senator.
02:17And I agree with you that there are challenges that we need to work on.
02:19Well, let's take Harvard.
02:25Sixty-nine cents out of every dollar from NIH given to Harvard goes to overhead.
02:33No, sir, it's sixty-nine cents out of every dollar, sixty-nine.
02:36It's on top of.
02:37It's on top of.
02:38It's not within.
02:39Okay.
02:39It's at 1.6.
02:43Let me ask you about one of the worst abuses I've ever seen.
02:50It was at Stanford.
02:51Yes, sir.
02:54Stanford was spending seventy-four percent of grants from NIH on overhead.
03:03Remember that?
03:05I do, although I was in high school at the time.
03:07Yeah?
03:08Yeah.
03:09I wasn't.
03:11And they audited Stanford.
03:13Yes, sir.
03:14You remember what they found?
03:15They bought a sailboat.
03:16They found that Stanford was spending some of that money to pay the salaries of the employees at a Stanford-owned shopping center, didn't they?
03:29I don't remember that part.
03:30I do.
03:32They found that Stanford was spending some of that money that was supposed to go to research,
03:37ladies and gentlemen, to renovate the president's home.
03:41Yes, sir.
03:43Didn't they?
03:44I believe so, Senator.
03:45Again.
03:46And to renovate the vice provost's home, too, didn't they?
03:50I believe you when you say that.
03:51And they also charged Stanford took NIH research money to help children and applied it to depreciation on a Stanford yacht, didn't they?
04:05Yes, sir.
04:05Again, when I was in high school, sir.
04:07Now, does NIH audit every year the way these grants are being spent?
04:15They don't audit every year.
04:17There's a process for determining.
04:18So they just trust the universities?
04:20No, there's a negotiation that takes place between the NIH and the university.
04:23Yes, sir.
04:23But if it's a five-year grant and they agree on indirect costs, they don't audit it every year.
04:31What if the universities lie to them?
04:33That is absolutely a possibility.
04:35What does fungible mean?
04:38Fungible means that you can move money from one place to another.
04:41And money's fungible, isn't it?
04:42Money is fungible.
04:44I'm ready to have a productive discussion.
04:48I've got to go to another committee.
04:50Maybe you'll have it today.
04:51I haven't heard it.
04:52Yes, sir.
04:53What I've heard is the implication is that anybody who is against asking hard questions about the overhead and spending is against biomedical research.
05:04I wouldn't say that, sir.
05:05I think you are a champion.
05:06And I don't agree with that.
05:08Yeah, I don't either.
05:09But every penny that we spend on overhead that's not being audited, and you know as much as I do, Doc, that some of it is being abused, is money that is taken away from research.
05:24And that's just a fact.
05:26And if you care about this child here, and I know you do, we all do, then any money spent illegitimately on overhead to pay the salary of a professor in the humanities department at a university is coming out of her research.
05:46And it's not wrong to ask questions.
05:48It is not wrong to ask questions.
05:50No, it's not.
05:50Not at all.
05:51And, Senator, I think it's actually important to ask those questions and optimize the situation.
05:55And I don't understand why these universities cannot live on 15 percent overhead when Gates Foundation limits them to 10 percent and the Johnson Foundation limits them to 12 percent.
06:10I don't understand it.
06:12All of a sudden, if they don't get 35 percent overhead, civilization is going to melt.
06:17It is important to have that conversation.
06:19My mama didn't raise a fool, and if she did, it was one of my brothers.