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00:00Now bring in David Paltiel, professor at the Yale School of Public Health.
00:04Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
00:07You're based in the United States, so I want to start with what's going on in the U.S. first.
00:11The Trump administration has been pretty intent on slashing the budgets of so-called woke initiatives.
00:17Can you give me an example of what research is at risk right now?
00:22Thank you for having me.
00:23So programs at risk, grants at risk, grants that are involving clinical trials of vulnerable populations, transgenders, anything that has to do with diversity in sexual health, those sorts of programs are at risk.
00:41And it's a broader swath of grants that are also threatened simply because I think in the broader context, the administration is trying to turn the lights off on the large research universities.
00:54So these are grants that have already been approved and projects that are already in the works.
00:59I don't know any colleagues who have not received at least one stop work order or one grant termination.
01:05Yes, absolutely things that are already up and running.
01:08Okay, so today we had Europe and France essentially hosting this conference to attract that talent, potentially talent, who had their research sort of hindered in the United States.
01:24What did you gauge from the showing today here in Paris?
01:28I thought it was a tremendous event.
01:30And the first thing to say more than anything else is thank you to the people of Europe, to the president for their show of solidarity.
01:39I took from it several things.
01:41First is the fact that they are creating a platform for the things we care about, independent research, academic freedom.
01:49They are emboldening the many people in the United States who are currently afraid to come out of the woodwork for fear that they will call attention to themselves.
01:57And they're making a generous offer of funding, not nearly enough to replace what's currently being funded in the United States, but certainly an initial investment, which, if it is carefully prioritized, could make an enormous difference.
02:13Let's talk about the money for a second, because the EU Commission president outlined some 500 million euros.
02:18France says it will mark 100 million.
02:22Still questions over where that money will actually come from.
02:26Talk us through the difference in budgets here in Europe versus the United States, because it pales in comparison, doesn't it?
02:34It does.
02:34Its order of magnitude is different.
02:36The budget of the National Institute of Health alone is $60 billion.
02:41It's estimated that the overall budget of the United States for research and development is of the order of $200 billion.
02:48So if one measures the success of this new platform on its ability to replace the United States as a funder of research, I don't think you're going to have much happiness or success.
03:02But I don't think that's the necessary measure of success.
03:05As I said before, the measure of success here is the degree to which it emboldens, it empowers, and the degree to which it can help essential research from slipping between the cracks.
03:17Because I have a friend who worked in public hospitals here in France for many, many years and then went to the United States to do his postdoc and then got funding for research from the United States.
03:32So now his research, which he's doing back here in Europe right now, is owned by an American company, whatever comes out of it, right?
03:40So would people like him be impacted by what France is trying to do, what Europe is trying to do now?
03:46Well, first, let's just say you're absolutely right.
03:48And as President Macron said, this is a huge, a gross miscalculation on the part of the United States government.
03:55Because just as you said, this is research that doesn't just save lives in some faraway place.
04:02This is research that eventually comes to benefit all of us.
04:06So yes, your friend's research is absolutely impacted, but more importantly, it impacts all of us.
04:13I just wanted to ask, the U.S. has been this pioneer for such a long time.
04:18When we think of scientific research, in the news we covered dire wolves, which was an extinct species making a comeback.
04:27Things that were unthinkable seem to happen in the United States.
04:30Despite the moves from the Trump administration, that is still going to always be the case, won't it?
04:36I don't know. I really don't.
04:38Won't researchers, like scientific researchers, learn to adapt with the climate they're dealing with?
04:44Maybe climate change is called something else.
04:47Well, I do believe that the pendulum will eventually swing back and that things will get so bad that people will turn on the administration
04:55and begin to, you know, re-up funding for science.
04:59But a lot of damage is going to be done in the interim.
05:02What you do need to know is that, yes, the United States has been a research hub for many years,
05:06but there is a lot of talent here in France and in Europe more generally.
05:10I've done a tremendous amount of work with the French National Agency for AIDS Research.
05:14And while it is true that you might think of the U.S. funding system as a super tanker,
05:22your systems are speedboats and your response to COVID, to Ebola, to MPOC has been spectacularly effective.
05:31What are some of the challenges besides funding?
05:35Do you think of setting up research facilities here in France or Europe for you?
05:40Well, before we talk about me personally, I do think it's important to recognize that it is not unreasonable
05:48for the French scientific community to be asking itself the question, what about us?
05:52Why are you funding American researchers when in fact we are underfunded?
05:55And it is true that there's plenty of reason to complain here in France.
06:00My hope is that this is a tide that will lift all boats, because if Europe is to be the center
06:07and the hub of the research renaissance, which was what I heard President Macron say today,
06:12you're going to need both.
06:13You're going to need both a native science community,
06:18and you're also going to have to be a place that provides shelter and welcome to the brains of the world.
06:24So in terms of challenges, besides the funding shortfalls,
06:29do you see any other red tapeism, anything of that sort?
06:33Just general infrastructure, laboratories, support.
06:37I benefit from the fact that I am at Yale University, where I have an enormous library,
06:43where I call the IT department and they come and fix my computer right away,
06:47where I have a finance and contracts group that takes care of all the financial aspects and compliance.
06:53It is true that my French colleagues do it all themselves,
06:56and that means that they have much less time for the actual work of research.
07:00So that infrastructure will also need to be invested in.
07:04Interesting point, David Paltiel.
07:06We're going to have to leave it there.
07:07Thank you very much for joining us on the program today.