Full panel for "Dark Winds" at FYC TV Fest
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00:00Please welcome Zahn McClarnon, actor, director, and producer, right?
00:07And Stephen Paul Judd, director and writer.
00:15Wow. Darkwinds season three, Joe's journey was this diving into his childhood and the trauma.
00:24What was that like for you to explore this season, Zahn?
00:27I mean, I'm an actor, right? I mean, this is what we kind of live for as actors to experience what I experienced,
00:36and specifically episode six, going back into Lee Porn's psychology and the moral gray areas and why he's made his choices.
00:45And it's fun as an actor. I find it cathartic, to be honest with you, to tap into some of the stuff that I went through as a kid,
00:53which was very similar. And so I enjoyed that process as an actor, and it's kind of why I wanted to be an actor.
01:02And I had a lot of fun. It was difficult at times.
01:06And kind of blurring those lines of reality and showing up and trying to be as honest as possible at those moments
01:13is something that I look forward to as an actor.
01:17We love that. And we're grateful you're an actor, too.
01:19Oh, thank you.
01:21Stephen, what about for you? Take us into the writer's room and going on this journey,
01:26because it is really dark and you do unpack some very traumatic things for Joe, particularly in his childhood.
01:34So what was that like?
01:36Yeah, you know, I'm sure with all the other writers, when they talk about it,
01:39when you're in a writer's room, you're really pulling from past experiences from yourself, too.
01:44So you've got a room with people. It's like therapy.
01:46I mean, there was more than four times, you know, everyone's crying in the room
01:52because you're telling personal stories because you want the stories to be as true as they can be.
01:56So it was cathartic, I think, though. And I think, you know, I think Zahn really was able to bring what we wrote to life.
02:07Speaking about episode six, if you've seen it, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
02:11And if you haven't, I do recommend you go watch. Actually, watch The Hole of Dark Winds today.
02:16But episode six, really, we go into this flashback.
02:22He's on this ketamine dream, right? Fever dream.
02:26And there is such a powerful scene directed by Erika Tremblay in the prison.
02:33And we've, yes, clap for Erika Tremblay.
02:37And it is a heartbreaking moment because it's, the porn is powerless.
02:43Talk about filming that scene and what that was like and having Erika Tremblay direct that sequence.
02:51I mean, it's really important that you have a group of people around you that allow you to be vulnerable and safe in those situations.
03:01And that's exactly what our showrunner, John Worth and Jim Chory and Tina Elmo and Chris Ayer and Erika Tremblay did for me, was just create a space, safe space for me.
03:13And, you know, there's moments where, again, I could relate to a lot of that because I went through some similar situations as a kid.
03:22But we all have our traumatic paths and go through certain things that traumatize us.
03:29And, you know, it just happened to be pretty close to my heart.
03:32And Erika just, we cleared the set and a lot, obviously, the camera people in, the first AD in there.
03:38And Erika just made it very safe for me to do what I needed to do.
03:43And, you know, there's the moments where she wanted more from me.
03:47And I said, okay, come here, hold my hand, you know.
03:51So she held my hand.
03:53And Erika is just a wonderful director and a very special human being.
03:59Stephen, you then directed episode seven, the one that follows.
04:02What was that like to then pick up the story after this revelation and take it to the next level?
04:07Yeah, that was exciting.
04:10You know, one thing about working with Zahn especially, in the show he's very, like, that's the guy you want leading you.
04:19But in real life he's like this, you know.
04:21So it's really great to see him turn it on.
04:25He's become this character of Joe Leaphorn.
04:27He knows the story.
04:29I think all of our cast know the story really well.
04:31So when you're directing them, it's a lot easier because I don't have to explain what we were thinking in the writer's room.
04:36They know the story well enough that it's a little bit of a shorthand.
04:39They know where the story's going.
04:43The other thing that really stands out is hearing the DNA language on screen.
04:48What is that like for you, Zahn, to be a part of this?
04:54It's historic, right, because we've never had this before on television.
04:58But also for you having to learn it.
05:01It's, well, there's a reason why the army used it in World War II to fool the Germans.
05:09You know, the Code Talkers, they used the Diné language, the Navajo language, to fool the Germans because they couldn't figure it out.
05:16They couldn't crack it because it's such a difficult language to learn.
05:20Obviously, we don't learn the whole language.
05:22I'm just learning, you know, scenes and sentences and dialogue in Navajo.
05:28But authenticity is extremely important to us, and we have two great cultural consultants that help us through it.
05:38It's Manny and Jennifer Wheeler, and they're amazing.
05:42Jennifer has her doctorate, and she goes through each syllable with us to make sure that we do it correctly.
05:48And personally, it's very important for me to represent the Navajo in that way, and at least I can learn my lines and know my, you know, know the syllables.
06:00It's very difficult to learn, though.
06:02It's hard, and it takes me a few weeks to learn just a couple lines.
06:08So, but I focus on it, and again, it's very important for the show to be authentic as possible.
06:14Because you've got a lot of actors in them, and this is why I'm asking you about the process and how many hours.
06:18Me, personally, it will take me, for one scene in season three, it took me a month to really, really get the nuances of it,
06:30to understand the other actor who was speaking fluent in Navajo, to understand the syllables and the sounds and the gutturals.
06:38And they speak out of the corner of their mouths sometimes, and it's just, it takes me a long time.
06:45But it's very important for me to get it right.
06:49Yeah, I, you know, being able to hear, yes, for sure.
06:54Being able to hear native language spoken on screen, like, it's just so cool to me.
06:58And I know, like, directing, it'd be like, so you're looking, you want to make sure the emotion's there and the scene's right.
07:03But then we'd look to Manny or Jennifer, like, I would just look at them, and they'd be like, or they'd be like, I'd be like, okay, one more time.
07:11And then they'd go, so we just want to make, because we really want to get it right, you know, that's really important to us, that we tried our best to get that right.
07:18And then we have Deanna Ellison, who is semi-fluent, who, she plays my wife, Emma, and she's actually a Danae.
07:28And so we give a lot of the dialogue to the fluent speakers that aren't going to butcher it.
07:34Because, you know, first season was, yeah, it wasn't great.
07:38Second season got better, third season's even better, so.
07:41You're a pro now.
07:42Oh, I don't know about pro.
07:43I'll never be able to speak that language fluently.
07:47Talking about representation, what is that like to be in the writer's room and, you know, being surrounded by, you know, authentic native storytellers,
07:55but also when you're, you're also telling your history?
07:59How do you strike that balance between, you know, telling, you know, again, going back to episode six, the folklore of, you know, the monsters,
08:10and then also, like, just telling, like, this great drama, you know, narrative.
08:17Yeah.
08:18Our room, you know, John Worth is our showrunner, and he is so cool about, what we don't want to write is Indian magic, you know,
08:28because we've seen that so much, and we really try to take care not to make it magic in that way.
08:33So anytime something might pop up, John Worth is so cool about, yeah, he listens to us, you know, it's not, he hears us,
08:40and we just, so as a native person, you know, we're just in there trying to, like,
08:43what is the most true story that we can tell as storytellers?
08:47And that's the best that we can do in there.
08:50And it's awesome to get a chance to do it.
08:52I mean, you're sitting in this room, and I'm like, oh, my gosh,
08:54we're writing something that an actor's going to say that's going to be on TV,
08:57and people are going to see it still, to me, I'm not jaded by it yet.
09:00I'm still, I mean, we're in our fourth season, and I'm still like, this is crazy.
09:06And again, I want to say thank you, because they're actually in the middle of production of season four,
09:11so they're literally leaving right after this and going back.
09:13This is not news, because it's already out there, but, Zan, you're directing your first episode this,
09:23well, season four airs.
09:26Yes, you deserve that applause.
09:27What is that like for you to then step into that director's chair and boss everyone around?
09:34Yeah, I don't know about boss everybody.
09:35You know, I've got a great team around me, John Morrith and Tina Almo,
09:39and I have to name their names, because they're so important to me.
09:43Chris Ayer is one of our producer directors,
09:46and I've got some great first ADs and some great DPs as well.
09:51So for me, it was just stepping in.
09:55The prep was the most difficult part, to shot lists,
09:59and I just kind of relied on everybody around me to hold me up
10:04and to guide me through the process.
10:06And I recently edited the episode, and, you know, the story is being told,
10:11and that was important to me, the story is being told.
10:15And I'll take this experience, hopefully, and maybe possibly do it again.
10:19But I'm very grateful for AMC for asking me if I wanted to direct.
10:25And I at first said, no, I don't know about that.
10:28Being a number one on a TV show in directing as well,
10:31and an EP, it's very, very difficult.
10:33But luckily, it's eight days of directing, but it's two weeks of prep before that.
10:39But I'm glad I did it, and I'll take the experience to hopefully do more,
10:45and we'll see what happens.
10:46But I'm very grateful for AMC asking me to do it.
10:50Yeah.
10:52But on the first day, he shows up, and he has these boots,
10:55and he's like this crop and a beret.
10:58And I was like, Zion, what are you doing?
11:00He had a megaphone.
11:00Megaphone and stuff.
11:03He said, this is how I saw it on the movie.
11:06No, I had this scarf.
11:08The scarf, too.
11:10Wait, who was your inspiration?
11:12What is the 70s director's name with the scarf?
11:15Oh, I don't know.
11:16Oh, Donovan.
11:18Edith Zoppoch Donovich.
11:19Yes, yes.
11:20I actually saw him at an airport a few years back, and I was, like, so starstruck.
11:26I couldn't say hi to him.
11:28Well, now you pay homage to him.
11:29Yes.
11:30We're going to need you to share that photo on social media, too.
11:34But just going back to this whole season, I mean, Joe's arc was so incredible and deep and emotional.
11:42Was there an aspect that you really, like, I love that we got to explore that this season?
11:48Yeah, you know, I think there was a moment where, in this last season, that I finally realized how in love Joe Leaphorn was with his wife.
11:58That moment, again, those lines being blurred.
12:02I'm watching Deanna Allison work with Jenna Elfman in a scene, and she's not confessing but telling Jenna, the FBI agent, her version of what happened in season two.
12:15And I was just staring at her, and I just realized how much Joe was in love with her.
12:20And to experience that as an actor for the first time, obviously, I'm not a leading man.
12:27I've just not played leading man roles, or I've never had love relationships in past television shows where I've been involved.
12:35And so it was a nice moment for me as a human, as an actor, but also to realize how much my character was in love with his wife.
12:45It was a great moment for me.
12:47Yeah.
12:48You are a leading man, Zahn.
12:52Yes.
12:52Is it?
12:53Now you've got my brain going, is there a genre that you're like, I would like to be a leading man in this genre?
13:03Let's manifest something for you today.
13:07Manifest something.
13:08There's a lot of things I'd like to do.
13:10I just want characters that are, you know, three-dimensional and are fully fleshed out.
13:19You know, I'm very ambiguous as far as I am native, but I'm also Irish, so I'm mixed.
13:25I'd love to step out of, like Sterling Harjo is doing right now.
13:29He's directing a TV series on effects that isn't anything to do with natives.
13:34You know, I'd like to be able to step out and do, I am an actor and I can play other roles.
13:40I would love to step out of that.
13:44We're going to, we're manifesting that, right?
13:48Stephen, let's look back on the season.
13:50How would you describe the season for those who haven't yet caught up on Dark One season three?
13:55Oh, man, it is a, it's a roller coaster, not only with the action, but the emotion, like what he was talking about.
14:03I mean, I love the scene you're talking about where Deanna is able, the character, Emma, she plays the character, Emma,
14:08and she's able to say all the stuff that she wanted to say to her husband, but never could.
14:13And he's able to listen to it on a recorder.
14:15Like, it's the idea of telling someone, the person that you love the most, you love them so much,
14:21because you can't quite say all the things you ever want to say, for whatever reason, fear of making them mad,
14:25how they'll react to it, and to be able to do that and have his character listen to it over and over.
14:30So emotionally, I think we, I'm so, I'm proud of it.
14:33I think we hit it emotionally, and then we also hit it on the action side of it, too, and the mystery.
14:38So really excited.
14:39And all of our guest stars were really great.
14:42So, yeah.
14:44How long did it take to write that scene with his wife?
14:48Because those words were, again, like, they touch you deep.
14:53Yeah.
14:53I think, I don't remember who pitched the idea in the room.
14:57We have a great room of writers, and we all pitched it all together.
15:01And I believe that episode was written by Erica Tremblay and Tom Brady, I think.
15:06And that's the episode I, Max, maybe it's Max, Max, Max Hurwitz.
15:10And I directed that episode.
15:12So one of those two guys, I'm not sure who wrote what.
15:14It's the way it works in our room, we all pitch it, put it up on the wall, and then the writers will go up and do their outline.
15:21Then we'll give them notes on that.
15:22They come back in with their script, and we give them notes on that.
15:24So it's really collaborative in that room in the best way, especially to help learn.
15:28I'm learning, too.
15:29You know, I love being in there learning and picking up from better, stronger writers than I am.
15:33Yeah, that's the beautiful thing about what AMC has allowed us to do, as well, is we have first-time directors, native directors, first-time writers in writing rooms.
15:45And that's so important for me as a human being to open these doors for other native talent.
15:52And we're doing that with Dark Winds quite a bit, and it's just amazing to me.
15:56Yeah, it's hard to get that first-time job, as a lot of people know, you know, so especially if you're not from L.A., and maybe you don't have the money to come out here and live, you know.
16:05So I think it's opened up a lot of doors, maybe to where there wouldn't be any including for me.
16:10Incredible.
16:10Son, how would you describe this season?
16:13This season, hmm.
16:16Joe, I mean, for me personally, my character Joe is just exploring quite a bit of some moral gray areas, experiencing some of his traumas in the past, self-understanding, reflection on his psychology, and mainly his wife and how that's affected his wife and his loved ones around him.
16:37So season three has been a joy to work on, and, you know, season four is even going to be better, and I've just had a great team to work with and wonderful writers and directors, and we're a family.
16:54I like going to work, you know what I mean?
16:56I like going to work and being around these people.
17:00Can I tell a quick story?
17:01Yes, we love a story.
17:03Okay, so when I was a kid, there wasn't a lot of native representation.
17:06It was, you know, Westerns and stuff like that, but I didn't care, man.
17:10I was looking for anyone that looked like anyone in my family, bad representation, just whatever it was.
17:15I was like, oh, they kind of look like our family, you know.
17:17There was a show called Chips, you know, and Eric Estrada.
17:20I was like, he kind of looks like my uncle, so I wanted to be a cop.
17:24But there was a movie called The Cowboys with John Wayne, and in it, A. Martinez played a character.
17:29And I remember I was a little kid, and I was like, that would have been me.
17:32If I was on this movie, I would have been the A. Martinez part.
17:35Or, you know, as a kid, you play act, and I would play act his part.
17:39So I just always thought about that.
17:41Flash forward, I'm doing this episode, and A. Martinez is in it, and they have a scene together.
17:46So I had to go to him.
17:46I said, man, listen, A., I've got to tell you, man, this is full circle for me, man.
17:50When I was a kid, I was watching you thinking, maybe one day I could have something to do in this industry.
17:56It's just the value of seeing someone that looks like someone in your family.
17:59And you may think, oh, that's not a big deal.
18:01But just imagine if you grew up, and everywhere you looked, there was no one that looked like you in commercials, in magazines, anywhere.
18:10You know, and if you're non-native, just imagine if the only time you saw yourself was, like, in a log cabin.
18:15That's it, you know?
18:17You're like, let's do a teepee.
18:18Yeah.
18:18So, anyway, it meant a lot to me.
18:21I didn't care.
18:21Bad representation, no representation.
18:23So it really felt a lot.
18:24So it was great to be able to tell him that.
18:26Oh, my God.
18:27We love a full circle moment story.
18:29I want to thank you, Steve and Zahn, for that incredible insight into Dark Winds, which is now streaming on AMC+.
18:35So thank you again, and stay seated for the next panel.
18:39Thank you, guys.
18:39Thank you all.