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00:00 He was a major player at the two-day Paris climate finance summit that's just concluded.
00:08 Former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is Joe Biden's special presidential envoy
00:12 for climate.
00:13 Thank you for joining us here on France 24.
00:16 My great pleasure.
00:17 Thank you for having me.
00:19 Lots to talk about coming out of these two days.
00:21 But first, I've got to say, Americans don't do half measures.
00:25 Donald Trump pulled out of the Paris climate deal, and then Joe Biden not only goes back
00:31 in, but goes in with this huge green investment plan, huge subsidies, hundreds of billions
00:40 of dollars, which, by the way, have attracted investors from around the globe.
00:45 Yeah, they have.
00:46 Well, you know, I don't think it's a definition of what Americans do.
00:50 I think that it's a definition of what happens when you have somebody who is, you know, out
00:55 of touch completely and doesn't inform themselves and who makes a decision based on God knows
01:02 what.
01:03 Pulling out of the Paris agreement was really hurtful for America.
01:07 But in the end, Americans stayed in the agreement.
01:11 All across our country, the American people wanted to continue to make progress, and we
01:16 did.
01:17 And even during Donald Trump's tenure, about 75 percent of all the new electricity that
01:23 came online in the United States was from renewables.
01:27 That's a remarkable story.
01:29 And so I like, you know, Donald Trump may have pulled out of it, but the American people
01:33 stayed in.
01:34 And now President Biden is making up for that with a remarkable set of initiatives that
01:41 are helping to make a difference in terms of the meetings we've had in the last two
01:46 years in Glasgow, Sharm El Sheikh, and now we're working to try to make a difference
01:50 in the world.
01:51 That energy transition bill, known as the Inflation Reduction Act, it turbo charges.
01:58 We hope so.
01:59 And yes, there's evidence that it's really having a good impact.
02:02 Now, the jury's still out because there's been a bit of a subsidy war now that's born
02:06 of that, with Europe, most notably.
02:10 And that's, you know, everybody needs to get their energy transition in high gear.
02:17 But is that taking money away from those countries that were present at this summit?
02:21 If you're building a seawall or solar panels, would you rather send your money to the United
02:26 States or to West Africa?
02:28 Well, I don't think it's an either or.
02:30 It's not a binary choice.
02:32 The fact is that President Biden has energized, no pun intended, efforts in America in order
02:40 to do our part because it's a global effort.
02:44 Every country needs to be at the table.
02:46 And President Biden's making certain that the United States is going to meet its goals.
02:50 But the investment money is finite.
02:52 Yeah, but no, actually, there are trillions of dollars waiting to be invested.
02:58 That's what President Macron was addressing in this particular conference, is how do we
03:03 take those trillions of dollars and excite them to get into the marketplace now in developing
03:10 economies, emerging economies.
03:14 And you know, but those economies, by the way, are not where the problem of the climate
03:19 crisis is emanating from.
03:21 There are 20 countries, the largest economies in the world, that are responsible for almost
03:26 80 percent of all the emissions that are creating the problem.
03:30 So what the President - what President Macron is trying to do, and all of us are trying
03:33 to do, is find a way to get the trillions of dollars needed for this energy transition
03:40 to be deployed, to be invested, so that we accelerate the transition.
03:45 And the President, President Macron, assembled about $37 trillion of assets owned and managed
03:53 in the one room, listening to how we can come together to deploy some of that money.
03:58 So we need to de-risk.
04:00 We need to help that money feel more comfortable in being invested in some of these trickier
04:06 places.
04:07 But again, these are not charities.
04:08 These are private companies or sovereign wealth funds, and they want a return on their buck.
04:14 And they will get a return on their buck.
04:17 That's the whole point.
04:19 But what we need to do is get the fear out of the atmosphere and address some of their
04:25 concerns.
04:26 And there are concerns.
04:27 Is the legal system such that we can arbitrate or take care of a problem if there is a problem?
04:35 Will our money be safer here than it might be somewhere else?
04:39 There are currency challenges.
04:40 There are political challenges.
04:42 So everybody has to kind of step up and begin to take the risk factor out of those investments
04:51 and help deploy that money.
04:52 A lot of different suggestions were put on the table in the last 48 hours.
04:57 And I think it was really interesting, actually, hearing from a lot of the leaders from Africa
05:03 and Latin America and elsewhere who came here to have this discussion.
05:07 Yeah, and when it comes to investing and borrowing, a major player is China, represented by its
05:12 prime minister at this conference.
05:16 You exchanged with Li Keqiang?
05:18 We had a very brief hello and an opportunity to say hi as we were moving in and out of
05:25 the thing.
05:26 I didn't have a formal meeting, but it was worthwhile.
05:28 And I'm glad I was able to have a brief discussion with him.
05:32 That is one issue where both President Xi and President Biden have said we should not
05:37 be the prisoners of other issues that we are concerned about and we have differences on.
05:43 We need all of us to deal with the climate challenge.
05:46 So my hope is that that will open up an opportunity for China and the United States to cooperate
05:52 again as we were last year and before in order to try to accelerate the transition.
05:58 One of the big issues China was involved in this is how to get over the line debt restructuring.
06:05 There's some 50 countries in the world that are either in default or close to it.
06:10 And after coming out of Covid and with inflation that's gone up these past years, there was
06:16 a deal on the sidelines for Zambia.
06:19 And again, this involved in part China.
06:23 Is it something, though, when you look at the task at hand, how do you stop these countries
06:32 from falling back into a debt trap?
06:35 The debt trap is a serious concern.
06:38 And we all share a recognition that the current policies of the World Bank, of the multilateral
06:47 development banks, IMF, et cetera, they need to be fine-tuned.
06:51 They need to be brought into this moment, 2023 climate crisis, and the need to be able
06:57 to liberate these countries from the amazing burden that they have at certain times.
07:04 For instance, if you have a massive hurricane or a cyclone or a huge flood like in Pakistan,
07:10 if you're burdened with greater debt, you can't respond.
07:13 You can't take care of the people.
07:15 And you can't do the things you need to do to move forward on avoiding those crises in
07:20 the future.
07:21 So, institutions --
07:22 Adapting, hardening your defenses.
07:25 Those institutions you talk about, of course, they answer to their shareholders, the largest
07:29 ones in the United States, for both the World Bank and the IMF.
07:32 That's exactly why you need this meeting, because you need to address the legitimate
07:36 concerns of people whose money that they have in a fund comes from people who expect you
07:43 to make money or at least protect their money.
07:45 You have pensioners.
07:47 Pension funds are invested.
07:48 You can't put pension funds at risk in an investment where you don't have an adequate
07:54 sense of fiduciary confidence that it's going to be protected.
07:58 But the criticism leveled at the United States is that there should be a recapitalization.
08:04 It needs to be more money for the IMF.
08:06 Well, there are ways to -- yeah, but there are ways --
08:08 And to do that, does that mean the U.S.'s share at the board is diluted?
08:16 There is, at this point in time, no one's judgment that I've heard who's involved in
08:22 this world of finance and efforts to try to fix the MDBs, the multilateral development
08:27 banks, who is saying we need a new capital infusion.
08:30 What we need is to use the existing rules to their fullest capacity in order to be able
08:37 to lend more money.
08:40 And you can lend more money without having a capital infusion.
08:44 If you -- I mean, there have been very tough restraints on the way in which the banks have
08:49 behaved which don't -- if you get rid of them, those restraints, it doesn't threaten your
08:55 AAA rating.
08:57 So what people want to do is try to first move to unleash these banks from restrictive
09:05 interpretations of existing rules.
09:08 Then after that, if we don't have enough, maybe it'll be time to consider whether you
09:12 need a capital infusion.
09:13 But you need a lot.
09:14 You talked about trillions yourself.
09:15 You need trillions.
09:16 Yes, you do.
09:17 And there's a recent --
09:18 You need four trillion or so every year for the next seven years and maybe beyond.
09:23 And at least one trillion of that has to go to the developing world.
09:27 I think more than that may go to the developing world.
09:30 But the developing world right now would be hard-pressed to be able to produce the projects
09:37 that are going to take a full trillion dollars.
09:39 And over a period of time, that will accelerate, and you'll be able to use a significant amount
09:45 of this money on this transition.
09:48 But part of -- this is important.
09:52 Twenty major economies of the world equal 80 percent of all the emissions.
09:58 Those 20 countries are pretty developed.
10:00 And so they need to be taking steps to address their transition.
10:08 Many of them are.
10:09 The EU, UK, Japan, Korea, Canada, the United States.
10:18 All of those entities have adopted plans that, if they implement them, can keep the 1.5-degree
10:25 target in range.
10:28 About 10 countries have not yet raised their ambition to a level that actually keeps faith
10:33 with the Paris accord -- the Paris agreement.
10:36 Are you including China in that?
10:38 China still has to raise some ambition, even as China has done an amazing job of deploying
10:46 more renewables than anyone else in the world.
10:49 So China is moving very rapidly to try to transition, but we believe there are ways
10:55 for us to work together to try to be able to do more.
10:59 And I hope, because China and the United States together equal about 40 percent of all the
11:04 emissions, if we can't cooperate together, it's really going to be hard to be able to
11:09 reach the goal.
11:10 Did Joe Biden make your life a little more difficult this week by calling Xi Jinping
11:13 a dictator?
11:14 Well, look, I -- we do not get involved in the back and forth.
11:19 My counterpart in China, Xia Zhimo, is a friend.
11:24 We've worked together for 20, 25 years.
11:26 We know each other.
11:27 We trust each other.
11:28 It's important to stay away from whatever the political back and forth is.
11:33 We want to find a way to change this dynamic, to have climate crisis turn into something
11:39 that could actually, between China and the United States, open up the opportunities for
11:43 us to work together on other things, too.
11:46 John Kerry, two quick final questions.
11:48 First of all, what do you say to developing nations who argue that they see the United
11:53 States going all in behind Ukraine?
11:57 How come the same kind of amount of money generated, the wartime economy mentality,
12:04 isn't happening for the developing world here for these sustainable goals?
12:07 Well, I've argued that it should be.
12:09 And I'm in favor of treating this particular challenge right now as if we were at war,
12:15 because I think we have to organize ourselves in our countries far more effectively to deploy
12:21 the resources that we have today and to begin to develop the technologies and the resources
12:26 we need to win this battle.
12:28 This is a big challenge.
12:30 A lot of people sort of treat it indifferently or they don't think they can make a difference.
12:36 Everybody can make a difference in this.
12:38 And we need everybody to be engaged in this challenge.
12:40 We have to get electricity to people who don't have it.
12:47 We need to use the electricity we have today to decarbonize our societies.
12:52 Or we have to capture the carbon that is the egregious part of creating this challenge
13:03 that we all face of the warming of the planet, et cetera.
13:05 It comes from one thing.
13:06 It comes from the emissions that come from the burning of fossil fuels that are not trapped,
13:12 caught.
13:14 And if we don't catch them, then we're going to continue to add to this problem.
13:18 So it's not a – this is not a rocket science challenge.
13:21 We don't have to sit around and scratch our heads and say, what's doing this?
13:24 We know what's doing this.
13:25 It's the way we propel our vehicles, the way we heat our homes, the way we light our
13:31 studios and our homes and factories.
13:35 That's what has to change.
13:36 It has to become carbon-free.
13:39 And the faster we get there, the better chance we have of avoiding the worst consequences.
13:44 In the meantime, my brother this summer is going to be hosting me at his seaside home
13:47 in Brittany where it rains a lot.
13:49 He's joked that there will soon be refugee climates – climate refugees at his house.
13:56 I know you have longstanding ties to Brittany.
13:59 I do.
14:00 Is it going to be the new Saint-Tropez?
14:01 Well, it certainly is a place to escape the unbearable heat and to find a terrific climate
14:10 for the summertime.
14:12 There's no question about that.
14:13 It's hot in a lot of places, and that heat is going to drive people to other places.
14:20 It already is in many parts of the world.
14:22 In fact, we're losing literally millions of people to extreme heat in various parts
14:26 of the world.
14:27 We're losing eight million people a year to the air pollution that comes from greenhouse
14:31 gas emissions.
14:32 So I think there are a lot of places that people will seek for refuge.
14:36 It may well be that Brittany is one, but I'm trying not to overcrowd it at this point.
14:42 We can help it.
14:43 John Kerry, so many thanks for speaking with us here on France 24.
14:45 Thank you.
14:46 My pleasure to be with you.
14:47 Thank you for joining us here.
14:47 for joining us here.