This International Women’s Day, we have invited some leading minds to discuss “Empowering Women of Today”. Join for a Power Talk with Frederic Widell, VP-Head of South Asia & MD, Oriflame India and for a panel discussion on “Intersectionality and Inclusion: Going Beyond Token Representation” with Outlook’s Lachmi Debroy.
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#Oriflame #IWD2021 #Women #OutlookMagazine #OutlookGroup
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00:00 Women's Day means for us that we really and truly have been empowering women all over
00:08 the world for the past 50 years.
00:13 It is how you feel about yourself, how you act towards others and it is really and truly
00:18 making the world a better place.
00:26 Good morning everybody.
00:28 Today we have with us Fredrik Widdel of Oriflame and he is going to talk about women empowerment
00:34 and the contribution of Oriflame.
00:35 Welcome to Outlook Speakout.
00:38 Thank you very much.
00:39 It is a pleasure to be here.
00:40 So Mr. Widdel, what is Oriflame's contribution in the field of women empowerment?
00:47 Well I think that Oriflame, when we started some 54 years ago, one of the major concepts
00:54 of Oriflame was to provide an opportunity for anybody to become an entrepreneur, to
01:00 work with our cosmetics and wellness products and become an entrepreneur.
01:05 And of course, since beauty is such an integral part of Oriflame, we have all over the world
01:10 attracted predominantly women.
01:13 There are of course men who see this as a business, but predominantly we have women
01:18 and those women are through the Oriflame opportunity empowered.
01:23 And what happens to a woman when she starts getting her own income or financial means?
01:28 Well she becomes less dependent and therefore more empowered.
01:33 So I think in the concept of Oriflame, women empowerment has been there for over 50 years.
01:40 And together with Oriflame, last year, I don't think you can believe, but last year we did
01:45 15,000 trainings.
01:49 Trainees on personal development, professional development, public speaking, sales trainings,
01:54 etc.
01:55 And that of course also develops people both personally and professionally.
01:59 So I think in our concept, women empowerment is at the core.
02:04 And you are from Sweden, so if you compare women empowerment there, or is it a very new
02:11 concept in India, what is it like?
02:15 Is women empowerment spoken about in Sweden or is it only...
02:18 Absolutely.
02:19 I think, and if we look at perhaps differences between Scandinavia as a region and other
02:25 parts of the world, the women empowerment movement have come much further away.
02:32 And we are much more equal at this point in time.
02:36 However, if you ask a woman from Sweden, I am sure she will say no, it is not 100% equality
02:42 yet.
02:43 And that is of course troubling.
02:46 So I think, but I think if you compare Sweden to India, for instance, we have more or less
02:51 the same men as women in the workforce.
02:54 Here is probably three or even four men to each woman.
02:58 So there are differences and that is why I think we as a private entity really and truly
03:05 have to take our responsibility.
03:06 I think all private sector, in fact, should take responsibility towards women empowerment.
03:13 And I am also very happy to say that on my commercial team here in India, we have 50%
03:20 women.
03:21 And in your India office, what is the ratio of women roughly?
03:24 I would say slightly askew to the advantage of women, around 60% women and 40% men in
03:33 the total company here in India.
03:35 And can you narrate some stories when you started off with Oriflame?
03:40 How was it like empowering the women?
03:43 What was the campaign that you conducted to make it a more woman-friendly organization?
03:49 I mean, I think that there are so many examples of people who have joined and had little means
03:56 perhaps and then developed the business and transformed from perhaps a shyer former self
04:03 to a fully blossomed entrepreneur.
04:07 What is the policy of their entrance to the organization?
04:11 As you said, everybody is free to enter.
04:13 Yeah, I mean, I guess there are only two legal requirements.
04:16 One, you have to be at the age of 18 or older.
04:22 And the second one is you need to be a human being.
04:24 And can you narrate some incident where you felt that women in your organization felt
04:29 empowered and economic independence came through from the lower strata?
04:34 I will share with you one of my favorite stories from Mumbai from many, many years ago, in
04:39 fact.
04:40 There was a lady who was a day laborer.
04:42 She lived in Tane and she used to take the train from Tane into central Bombay.
04:47 And she had five rupees in her pocket every morning.
04:50 That's it for the train.
04:52 And then she was a day laborer.
04:53 She got money, took the same train back home.
04:56 And on that train, she met an Oriflame brand partner.
04:59 And she decided to sign up and join Oriflame, as it is free of charge to join us.
05:05 And she developed into a fantastic entrepreneur who traveled all over the world together with
05:10 us.
05:11 And she's now 70 plus.
05:13 And obviously, for reasons that are very reasonable, she's working less now.
05:19 But there are so many of these type of examples.
05:22 And also, that is one side of the story.
05:25 We also have a very young lady, a 22-year-old student from Kohima, who is making as much
05:32 as my sales director here every month.
05:36 So there are stories all over.
05:38 And that's why I'm so proud of working for Oriflame.
05:41 And what are the latest projects and campaigns you're taking up to promote Oriflame's Women
05:47 Empowerment Scheme, which is a very important part of your--
05:51 Yes, it is.
05:52 And we have been, for us, since 2006, we've been involved with Depalia, which is a girl
06:00 child project.
06:02 Or it's actually schools for lesser fortunate girl children.
06:08 And we have helped 8,000 girl children go through the entirety from first class to high
06:15 school.
06:16 And this we have done now for the past 15 years.
06:18 And we will continue to do this.
06:20 This makes a huge difference for us.
06:23 And at the same time, on this International Women's Day, we will also have a campaign
06:28 called #BeTheBossBabe.
06:32 Be the boss, babe.
06:33 And around this, we will continue to promote both women empowerment and entrepreneurship.
06:39 And I think they kind of go hand in hand.
06:42 For me as a man, I want to tell all men out there, you too have to do your bit to women
06:49 empowerment.
06:50 This is not a woman's issue.
06:51 This is a societal issue.
06:55 How gender inclusive is your organization?
06:58 I would say it's very gender inclusive.
07:01 And I think it comes, as I mentioned briefly before, from the fact that we predominantly
07:06 sell products for women.
07:07 Of course, we have a male segment and EDTs, et cetera, et cetera.
07:11 But at the end of the day, as a woman, somehow, I guess still, women care a little bit more
07:18 than men about how they look.
07:20 I think it's changing.
07:21 And we see men being more and more metrosexual and looking after themselves, which I think
07:26 in general is very good.
07:27 But at the moment, I think women are still a little bit ahead of us.
07:32 And for the metrosexual men, what are the products that you all have?
07:36 We have everything from skincare.
07:38 We have a full daily routine for men.
07:41 Men also have skin, just as important as for women to have a cleanser, a toner, a day cream,
07:47 an eye cream, and perhaps an eye cream for your wrinkles.
07:50 And that range we launched last year, and it's been selling super well.
07:55 We have fragrances, EDTs, body washes, et cetera, for men.
07:59 So we have a vast portfolio here in India.
08:02 And how empowered are the men in your organization?
08:06 Because women empowerment we talk about, but we need to empower our men too.
08:10 How empowered are the men in your organization?
08:12 That's a very good question.
08:14 That's a very good question.
08:16 And I think when it comes to empowerment of men, education is the most important tool.
08:21 And it has to start at early ages, because perceptions are built during your early years,
08:29 right?
08:30 And the theme, as you say, we choose to challenge.
08:33 The menfolk, are they really challenging the women in your organization?
08:38 The womenfolk, rather, are really challenging the menfolk in your organization?
08:43 I think they are.
08:44 I would like to think that they are.
08:47 And now the question is, are the men challenging themselves to stand up for women empowerment?
08:54 Now, that's a question I think is perhaps something that we should all ask ourselves
08:59 as men.
09:00 And the men in your organization, do you all go through some etiquette practice or something
09:05 like that so that none of them do not misbehave?
09:10 Absolutely.
09:11 Absolutely.
09:12 Do you have some workshops or something?
09:13 We have workshops and we have also yearly pledges that you have to do, every employee,
09:18 which has to do with sexual harassment, corruption, legalities, etc., etc.
09:27 That every employee has to go through and pledge that he, in this case, is adhering
09:33 to all Oriflame policies of gender equality.
09:35 Mr. Fredrik, every day is a Women's Day.
09:39 So why do we need to celebrate Women's Day on that specific day, 8th of March?
09:43 I think we need to celebrate Women's Day until such time there is 100% equality in the world.
09:51 And I don't see that happening in the next 50 years, but I do see that happening afterwards.
09:57 And 50 years on the scope of humanity is a very small period, of course.
10:01 And I think I am steadfast in celebrating this day until such time.
10:06 Thank you so much for the show.
10:07 It was great talking to you.
10:09 Thank you very much.
10:10 Appreciate it.
10:11 Welcome to the Outlook Speak Out special on Women's Day.
10:21 I am your moderator, Lachmi V. Roy.
10:24 We have a very well-established women panelist who works with Life lined up for us.
10:30 The topic of the webinar is insecurity and inclusion, going beyond token representation.
10:38 Now I go over to introducing the panelists, our most esteemed panelist, Reena Raju, who
10:44 is an athlete and a two-time heart recipient.
10:48 Reena lives and gives with her heart donors beating inside her.
10:53 She is the first Indian to survive repeat heart transplant.
10:58 She's the first team manager of India to prepare 14 athletes to represent India at the 2019
11:06 World Transplant Games.
11:08 Dr. Alka Pandey is a consultant, art advisor, and curator.
11:15 She is a receiver of several national and international awards.
11:20 We have Supandha Chadha, curator of Sabera and Women Endangered, which is an initiative
11:28 on gender sensitivity.
11:29 We also have with us Shikha Sharma, a producer who has co-produced successful films like
11:37 Toilet, Ek Prem Katha, Shakuntala Devi, Noor, and many more.
11:42 Welcome to Outlook Challenge.
11:44 Thank you, Lachmi.
11:47 So we go ahead with the questions and it's a pleasure having all of you for this event
11:53 of ours.
11:55 And so Reena, I will start with you.
11:59 What is it, what does gender inclusivity mean to you in your field?
12:08 It means to me equal opportunities, access, and support.
12:14 In my field of organ donation and transplantation and a decade of being in this cause, I have
12:22 realized and I've come across men having more, relatively more access to family support,
12:32 financial support, and medical care compared to women at times.
12:39 An organ transplant, for example, can cost anywhere from 15 lakhs to 35 to 40 lakhs,
12:45 depending upon the choice of hospital.
12:47 Post the surgery, it costs around 8,000 to 15,000 per month on these anti-rejection medicines.
12:56 This is to prevent the organ from being rejected.
13:00 And there are so many out there who cannot afford these month-on-month medicines and
13:05 no medicines, there's no life.
13:08 So I feel we are already getting there and there needs to be a mindset change.
13:14 For me, it's about equal opportunities, access, and support in every form.
13:20 And Shikha, what does it mean to you, inclusivity in your profession of entertainment?
13:24 How is it like?
13:26 So I would agree with Reena, it's no different from us.
13:31 It's the providing equal access of opportunity and resources for people who might otherwise
13:36 be excluded or marginalized.
13:39 And I think in our industry, things are changing at a very high speed.
13:44 And I think that, you know, women are given more opportunities.
13:48 There are other people from caste and religion.
13:52 And I think we are getting lesser and lesser biased in the industry that we are in.
14:00 Shikha Sharma, how difficult was it for you in the industry?
14:05 What extra mile did you have to go for it?
14:08 So, I mean, I would like to say, honestly, I was a bit blessed and I didn't have too
14:16 many hurdles.
14:17 Sure, there were hurdles, because it's the career, but it's not because I'm a woman,
14:23 you know, even now, like the kind of the films that we back, the kind of people that we are
14:29 working with, you know, all the head of departments in my films, if you see, are mostly women.
14:37 You know, there are DOPs, which are women, there are people on the technical side, like,
14:43 you know, editors, like sound recordists, there are costume designers, there are, you
14:50 know, PDs, production designers, are so many of them are women.
14:54 And, you know, I think, and I'm very proud to say that as a company, Abundantia, we support
15:01 women, and we have, in fact, in my team, you know, we have women who are spearheading the
15:07 creative department, you know, so I think there's immense opportunity.
15:12 And yeah, I don't think I mean, there are definitely challenges, and I had a lot of
15:17 them.
15:18 But I just feel like it wasn't because I was a woman.
15:23 And Alka ji over to you, how is your profession, like going beyond inclusivity?
15:31 What does gender inclusivity actually means in your profession?
15:35 How open is your?
15:36 Well, in my profession, I'm glad you've asked very specifically, Lakshmi, I wear many hats
15:45 as a scholar and an academic, you know, when you are teaching women are supposed to teach.
15:51 So there is a little bit of, you know, a little bit of patriarchy, which asserts itself.
15:58 I just want to say one thing, that in a country like ours, you can't get beyond gender and
16:05 caste, class ever.
16:09 Of course, things are changing a lot today.
16:11 They're changing enormously.
16:14 And what I would like to say is that in the arts, particularly in the arts, women do seem
16:20 to have an upper edge.
16:22 And I'm not talking of the performing arts, or film, I'm talking only of the visual arts,
16:29 because I come from the practice of visual arts, I have been teaching in the university,
16:36 I am working as a curator, I work as a writer.
16:42 There is a lot of gender inclusivity, for sure.
16:46 But then it's very nuanced.
16:49 I will say that the world is changing very rapidly.
16:53 And what is of concern to me, in this third wave of feminism is that because for generations,
17:01 women have had a little more of a, not little, but say 20 years ago, much more of a struggle,
17:07 there is a kind of aggression which has come in from the women, which as a woman, I am
17:13 very nervous of.
17:15 I find that with my younger colleagues, I find that with younger people coming to work
17:19 for me, particularly metropolitan, urban, well educated women who've studied abroad,
17:28 and have had great education in India, I am nervous of that very aggressive kind of attitude
17:38 they come with.
17:39 Maybe it's a reaction.
17:41 So I'm talking now of age, the kind of age that I am in, the kind of experience that
17:47 I've had over the many years, I think it is very, very important for us to also contextualize
17:54 ourselves.
17:55 And when you are asking about gender inclusivity in my profession, the arts is always looked
18:00 upon, you see, women were always meant to sew, embroider, go to a finishing school,
18:04 be good wives, paint and be Sunday painters.
18:09 So from that point of view, there is not too much of a problem in the visual arts.
18:15 Women can paint, they are equally well recognized.
18:19 But at another level, women have to become mothers, they take a little bit of a backseat,
18:25 even if you see with painters, because they have their home, they have their house, they
18:29 have the children to take care of.
18:31 So what I'm trying to say is there the gender inclusivity has to come in with the support
18:37 of the men.
18:38 So today, everything is a partnership.
18:41 And the inclusivity also is a partnership.
18:45 And I think women again play a very important role, because women as mothers of sons have
18:50 to sensitize them to the gender.
18:53 So it's very, very complicated today in urban India, I'm talking of urban India, because
19:00 that's the area I'm familiar with.
19:03 That's the area I work in.
19:05 It's very complicated.
19:07 It's very nuanced.
19:09 And I think the canvas is of inclusivity.
19:15 Definitely, the mindset has changed.
19:18 But because we are in such a critical area of transition, particularly in developing
19:25 countries like us, and in India, we have another complication of caste and class as well.
19:33 So there are various complications.
19:35 But I am talking from a position of great positivity.
19:40 And I am saying that I'm seeing the world change, while women make the change.
19:45 In the case of women empowerment, I think men are making a bigger, bigger effort because
19:52 they have to tone down their masculinity, they have to tone down their marquismo.
19:58 And many men are doing that, because they have also realized, and they are becoming
20:04 pragmatic that if they have a wife, who's bringing in money, who's bringing in some
20:10 kind of social recognition, they have to support the woman.
20:15 So it again depends on the mindset of both men and women.
20:20 And again, here, I will say, it's also a little tragic that my generation of women are still
20:26 making a difference between girls and boys if they have one of each gender.
20:33 And I will say definitely women are more vulnerable in every way, in India in particular, because
20:40 we don't have that personal space and things which is so much there in America.
20:45 We don't have the French thing of complete equality, where I think the balance is on
20:51 the other side.
20:52 My research, in fact, had been on a very interesting image of Shiva called Ardha Nari Ishwara,
20:59 the Lord who is half woman.
21:01 And my thesis, which I turned it into a cultural book, is all about gender balance.
21:07 And if you see in our ecosystem, also, it is all about balance.
21:11 So the minute there is balance between the mindset of both men and women, and I will
21:17 definitely say women today, who are becoming so aggressive, that they are losing their
21:24 beauty of what it is to be feminine, because the feminine energy is definitely and scientifically
21:30 different.
21:32 Women can multitask, which I see even the best of men cannot.
21:35 They are not trained that way.
21:37 So it's a lot to do about nature and nurture.
21:41 And I think we are at a very, very critical stage.
21:44 But as I said, I'm very positive.
21:47 And I see all around a huge sensitivity, which is coming in from enlightened men, who are
21:54 sons of enlightened mothers.
21:56 So again, you see that the mother, son.
21:59 So everything depends on a woman.
22:02 But this aggression today, that is something which makes me very sad, which I see from
22:07 urban metropolitan women.
22:09 So, Pana, your take on this inclusivity in your profession.
22:14 Thank you, Lakshmi.
22:17 I'm very honored to be in this very, very elite set of women who are very empowered
22:23 in their own fields and have challenged mindsets in their own particular domain.
22:28 So I'm grateful for that.
22:32 As far as I'm concerned, given that I've had an experience with the media and marketing
22:37 domain for the past two decades, and the last particular decade, I have been curating media
22:48 and marketing related events.
22:51 So specifically, my challenge is always to have an equal representation of all the genders,
22:59 men, women, and the third gender.
23:04 And I'll quote an example to you of late.
23:08 It surprises me to no end that, you know, a very popular magazine, I'm not going to
23:15 name them, they curated a set of awards for the motor industry.
23:22 And from people on the jury to people on the dais speaking about the industry, etc, etc,
23:30 I could see only very well achieved and very well arrived men.
23:35 And there was no representation whatsoever of women.
23:41 And when I spoke about this, there were many women that came forward, I know of women in
23:46 the motor sport industry, in the racing industry, in so many ways that they're involved.
23:53 So really, we all need to make conscious decisions in whatever field that we are in.
24:00 And also for Sabera, which I have been curating for the past four years, Sabera essentially
24:06 highlights good, it's as simple as that.
24:10 And that good can be from an individual perspective, a not for profit, or from a corporation perspective.
24:17 And to anchor that I consciously always invite somebody who would never ever have had the
24:23 chance or an opportunity to be there amidst, you know, the who's who of the media, marketing
24:29 and general society or policymakers at large.
24:32 My first event was anchored by a daughter of a gardener, a Mali, you know, and she was
24:38 a beneficiary of a school in Uttarakhand, that nurtures a lot of young children, sons
24:48 and daughters of the soil, and gives them an international exposure that was PYDS.
24:54 In my second year, the anchoring mantle was taken over by a daughter of a sex worker from
25:01 the infamous Kamathipura district, and a rag picker from Noida.
25:08 Both of them in their own way have empowered themselves through education.
25:12 Of course, there have been, you know, people and organizations that have supported them.
25:19 And in my last edition of Sabera, which was the third edition, we had the daughter of,
25:25 you know, Dhobis from Rajasthan.
25:28 And it's so heartening to see them speak when they speak from the heart and so fluent in
25:34 English.
25:35 That little girl said, my dream was when I was young that I can fluently speak in English
25:40 and here I'm standing on this platform amidst all of you and speaking.
25:45 So these are some conscious decisions from an individual perspective of the domains that
25:51 we represent that we need to take.
25:54 And Suparna, how empowered are the menfolk around you?
25:58 And when we talk about menfolk, I emphasize on men because I consider women to be empowered
26:04 enough.
26:05 Now it is time to...
26:06 And since you've done a lot of campaigns on various issues regarding women, like how empowered
26:14 are the men around you?
26:16 And men around you doesn't mean just your profession, your family, your relatives, your
26:21 friends, what is it like?
26:23 So, Lakshmi, for me, I relate to a feminine energy, like Alka ji also pointed out, from
26:33 a spiritual perspective, it is called Shakti and Shakti essentially translates into energy
26:39 that creates.
26:40 So it's naturally a feminine energy.
26:44 And when I talk of Shakti, then there has to be a mention of Shiva.
26:49 So there has to be that Shiva-Shakti balance in all of us.
26:54 While outwardly, we can look at it as every gender representing everything, but all of
27:00 this is within, whether you call it through Yin and Yang, or Shiva and Shakti, the concept
27:05 is that of being balanced within your own self.
27:10 And unless that balance is achieved inwardly, I don't think outwardly, we can do much.
27:17 And in a perspective of men specifically in my sphere of existence, if, say, for example,
27:26 for me, inclusivity and balance will include being economically, being socially, being,
27:35 you know, from an education perspective and psychologically being balanced.
27:40 So if a man is not emotionally balanced, or contributes enough to the emotional portion,
27:48 then definitely they are not empowered enough.
27:51 And that is my perspective.
27:54 And do you think that we need to talk about empowerment anymore?
27:58 Women empowerment anymore?
28:00 Absolutely, you know, in 2013, I started an initiative called Women Endangered.
28:07 And that was more out of trying to channelize my anger and energy after the Nirbhaya Kaand
28:14 in India.
28:15 All of us were shaken to the core.
28:18 But I realized that what I end up doing is just armchair activism, wherein I'm pointing
28:25 fingers at the judiciary, at the police, at the society, and not really looking within
28:31 myself as to how I have contributed to where the situation is today.
28:37 And that's how Women Endangered started.
28:39 And ever since then, I have also started giving menstrual hygiene workshops, both in slums,
28:48 as well as in institutions as part of that initiative.
28:53 And believe you me, let's not consider ourselves as the tier one cities to be empowered.
29:00 And that's all there is to empower.
29:02 There is tier two, there's tier three, there's a lot of representation of women that needs
29:09 to come up.
29:10 And even in terms of upwardly mobile and educated women like us, there has to be a conscious
29:17 awareness of the biases that kind of creep inside our thought process as well.
29:23 I'll give you a simple example of when I was introduced to a menstrual cup, I had no clue
29:29 of what that is.
29:31 And when I tried to use it, it almost was like, oh my god, I will insert it inside myself,
29:38 it's dirty.
29:39 You can imagine I am not comfortable within my own body, let alone anything else.
29:45 So I actually was a guinea pig for a couple of years after using it and realizing how
29:50 important it is for us to know our own bodies of what is good for us, and then what is good
29:56 for the environment.
29:57 That's how the Let's Talk period campaign actually started.
30:02 And we've been, you know, kind of going out with this outreach of sustainable menstruation
30:08 in various sectors of society.
30:11 Reena, over to you, we need to know any discrimination that you've had to go through, not just as
30:19 a sports person, but being an organ recipient.
30:23 Well, at the age of 25, I was very young when I was diagnosed with a heart failure.
30:32 I've grown up as a pretty strong young girl, being active in sports and hockey, I was always
30:38 encouraged to be myself and not discriminated in any way as a girl.
30:44 But the moment I fell sick, be it at gatherings, or even at the hospital, you know, where you're
30:50 waiting in the waiting area.
30:52 Often, you know, it would be said, like, you're so young, you know, you've fallen sick, or
30:58 who's going to marry you, or you cannot have a baby.
31:02 And this was the mindset.
31:03 But for me, it was about surviving and making it and I believed that I have immense, I had
31:12 immense faith that I would make it.
31:14 And when I started out, after almost four years of suffering with heart failure, I went
31:20 through my first successful heart transplant.
31:24 And this was way back in 2009, when heart transplant, heart transplants were not even
31:28 heard of in our country.
31:30 And I was one of the very few who had a transplant then.
31:34 And I wanted to create the awareness on organ donation.
31:38 I wanted to start counseling patients, you know, before and after their transplant, mentally
31:43 prepare them because I didn't have that.
31:46 I also, like I said earlier, the cost of transplant is high and post transplant care itself is
31:51 expensive.
31:52 So I needed to raise funds to support needy patients with these life saving medicines.
31:57 And from a sports background, I wanted to promote fitness and wellness.
32:02 So when I started out after my first transplant, and approached a couple of people, you know,
32:07 working in this field, I'd hear things like, you know, you're a young girl, you're in yourself,
32:13 why do you want to do this?
32:15 And first try to help yourself, why are you trying to help others?
32:19 Also, it was a time where, you know, what a patient can do, was not, you know, seen
32:25 by a lot of people.
32:27 And that's when, but thankfully, I had the support of my family, who see me fight day
32:32 in and day out and make it and go through a transplant.
32:36 They knew that I could survive anything and do anything I set my mind to.
32:41 And I approached my doctor, Dr. K.M.
32:43 Chhedian, he seen me at my worst.
32:45 And I told him, Doctor, I want to start a foundation.
32:48 And I want to do this.
32:50 And he was so happy because he's seen me struggle and he knows my potential.
32:55 So he opened doors for me, introduced me to the right people.
33:00 And you know, helped me set up my foundation and everything I've learned about organ transplant
33:05 and heart transplant in particular, was through him.
33:09 So you know, it's, it's more the mindset, it's not about man versus woman.
33:15 For me, it's been about patient versus society.
33:19 And that mindset needs to change where, you know, anybody who has the support can reach
33:27 any potential and is able to do anything they set their mind to.
33:31 And I had that opportunity and I pursued it.
33:34 And it's taken like more than a decade.
33:36 But then here I am doing what I love.
33:39 Alkaji, what is it extra mind that you have to go to prove yourself that you're better,
33:44 or rather you can do it in a better than the menfolk in your area of work?
33:50 See I don't like at this stage in my life, I've stopped even wanting to prove anything.
33:56 Because I do believe like most of my columnists and colleagues on this panel will agree.
34:03 My latest book, in fact, is on Shakti, the eternal goddess.
34:07 After doing Shiva Shakti, I've concentrated on Shakti.
34:11 That's my latest book.
34:13 And in that I have given my also my personal journey that I come from a Shaak background.
34:18 And in theory, all this is fine.
34:22 It's also said Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh bow down to the eternal goddess, all that is fine.
34:26 From the pundits to God fearing people, everybody bows down to the eternal Shakti.
34:32 But when it comes to real life, I don't even want to say that women are better or worse
34:38 than men or men are more, how should I say, focused.
34:45 I'll just say women are different, men are different, women work differently.
34:49 They have another set of challenges.
34:51 Men work differently.
34:52 They don't have so many challenges because their wives take care of everything in their
34:56 domestic space.
34:58 But having said that, what I find, in fact, it's a bit infuriating.
35:04 In fact, it's a bit irritating that when you go out to work as a woman, when it comes to
35:09 payments, I've often been asked, why do you have to charge?
35:14 I mean, why do you need to earn money?
35:18 That's so annoying, because I am working in the house, I'm working outside the house,
35:24 I need to be valued for my time.
35:26 Okay, in the domestic space, nobody's valued for time, except perhaps in Germany, where
35:31 women, the house frowns are actually valued for their time.
35:34 So that's okay.
35:35 But when I go out and I leave my house, and I'm working equally hard, and I'm being questioned,
35:41 why do you need and then to have to ask for your money.
35:45 Often you have to keep sending them emails, you have to keep asking.
35:49 And it's very, very embarrassing, because from the kind of creamy layer that I came
35:54 from, the kind of educated backgrounds that we came from, and very empowered backgrounds,
36:01 because we as women come from a, my kind of women, we came from a very different space.
36:06 Also, I'm much older than my, you know, fellow panelists here, we were told never to talk
36:13 money, it was a dirty word.
36:15 Saraswati ki upasana karo, Lakshmi apniya bhaigi.
36:19 So it is very difficult for people like me to talk about money.
36:24 And believe you me, everybody takes advantage of that.
36:28 The people, and I'm sorry to use this very racist way of speaking, but white skinned
36:34 people are always given more money, even as an author, let me tell you that.
36:38 Even as a writer.
36:40 Yeah, I totally agree with you.
36:44 And who is doing that?
36:46 We as Indians are doing that.
36:48 So who is starting this kind of dialogue?
36:52 We.
36:53 Why is a woman not given that same similar advance, which her male white colleague gets?
37:02 Why is she as a curator, not being made to pay?
37:06 Why am I always being asked?
37:08 Oh, you know, we don't have a budget for this, but can you do that?
37:12 Will any person from a more organized white Western world give up their time gratis?
37:21 Somebody just asked me, called me up again from the West and said, oh, you know, so and
37:25 so wants you to write.
37:27 So when I asked about the honorarium, there was a big silence.
37:31 And then I said, look, however big the project may be, it may be international, but I'm going
37:35 to be putting in work, I need to be paid.
37:38 So then he says, yes, yes, I do understand.
37:41 You know, my wife is an artist too.
37:43 But I had to have that conversation.
37:47 It is not nice to have that kind of conversation.
37:51 So these kinds of conversations are happening.
37:54 And it is really sometimes even a little humiliating that you have to keep asking for your money.
38:00 Why do you have to be valued for your time?
38:03 Why does the male not have to ask these questions?
38:07 So this is my question.
38:09 Why are professional women still having to ask for their money, still having to negotiate,
38:18 still having to say no, no, you don't have, can't you reduce?
38:22 Oh, we don't have the money.
38:24 Why?
38:25 That's my question.
38:26 Chika, you must have also gone through a similar situation.
38:32 When you had to be asked for money, and then you have to ask for your own work, the time
38:40 that you've given.
38:41 What is it like?
38:43 So I would agree with all the panelists here.
38:46 But also, it was mentioned that it's not only with women.
38:51 I think even men go through the same thing.
38:55 I feel like there are times in our industry also when we are said that, why do you need
39:00 to charge so much?
39:01 I mean, you can do it in a lesser price or maybe do it as a favor.
39:07 So yeah, that's a different approach.
39:11 But yeah, like, you know, in the past, we were discussing a few minutes ago about men,
39:18 you know, how important men play a role in our lives to make women powerful.
39:25 I think that's a very, very important thing that we need to discuss.
39:30 Because you know, if you are have a life partner at home who's supporting you with a kind of
39:35 field, I mean, you know, Lakshmi, in our kind of field, firstly, it's such a, when I started,
39:41 it was a big taboo, like, really, you want to do films?
39:44 Like really, like, and I'm from Delhi, like none of my, you know, nobody around in my
39:48 family has ever been in the feature film business.
39:52 And when I broke the news, and I said, you know, I want to do films, I was literally
39:55 like, no, you're gonna be grounded, you cannot do this, you know, because it's unsafe.
40:00 The women in the industry are not safe enough.
40:03 And you know, you come from a protected background.
40:06 You have I had brothers, I'm the only, you know, sister, my daughter in my entire, you
40:12 know, family.
40:13 And yeah, in that sense, it was challenging.
40:16 But once you made up your mind, you want to achieve what you need to achieve, you also
40:21 find men who really support you in that, you know, then like, ever since I've been in Bombay,
40:26 I've been quite blessed with men who have, you know, supported me and I am here I am
40:32 because of them, my company, our company is called Abandanshya Entertainment, where it's
40:38 actually the name itself comes from a Roman goddess, Abandanshya.
40:43 And you know, it's, it was formed by Vikram Malhotra, who, you know, who was worked with
40:48 Viacom and he's been in the business for a long time, but he empowers us, he empowers
40:54 and like I was saying earlier, you know, that we are, I think 70% of our strength in our
41:02 company is women, you know, and we have women collaborators who are directors, we are telling
41:08 stories which are about women, I was just, you know, listening to Reena's story, and
41:12 it's so inspiring that I would love to make a feature on that, you know, and I think,
41:17 yeah, and I think this is what will empower us, we need to tell these stories.
41:21 This is what is going to empower and inspire women out there, you know, and that's I think
41:27 we are lucky and we are really, you know, I feel lucky that I'm in the mass media, you
41:33 know, it's the most powerful tool in influencing and shaping the minds of people in society.
41:39 And as an organization, we take our responsibility really seriously.
41:42 So you know, even though of course, there are, you know, films like Chhapak, where you
41:47 know, you did tell a story about a man creating the situation for women.
41:52 But you also have Shakuntala Devi, where you know, you actually look at that woman and
41:56 you're saying, my God, she didn't listen to anyone, you know, she just went ahead and
42:00 made her life the way she wanted to.
42:03 So I mean, I, you know, I would never want to play that victim card, you know, of, you
42:10 know, women being like, you know, subdued.
42:12 And so of course, there have been challenges.
42:14 And like you asked me earlier, have I gone through things?
42:16 Of course, I have.
42:18 It's not like I haven't, but it's just that you look at the brighter side, and you move
42:22 ahead and you take it in your stride and make yourself stronger as a woman, empower the
42:27 women around you, you know, and take the support of all the lovely men who are with you and
42:34 make life happy and bright.
42:36 You know what, there is always a notion that, like the saying that women are women's biggest
42:43 enemy, we don't support each other, hence this confusion starts.
42:47 How much do you agree with it?
42:50 Well, I would, there are, you know, it's like, I would say that we are human beings, you
42:55 know, there are going to be men and women creating hurdles for you.
42:59 And then yeah, there are women at times that, you know, try and create a situation.
43:04 But like you were saying, you know, do you want to talk, we should talk a little bit
43:07 about our personal lives as well.
43:09 You know, I think I'm blessed with a very strong woman in my mother in law, who I think
43:14 supports me and doesn't bring me down.
43:16 Like, you know, in my profession, I need to travel a lot, I need to be out of the house.
43:22 Pretty much I work 18 hours a day.
43:25 But if it wasn't for a support like a woman, you know, like her, it would have been so
43:29 tough.
43:30 And, you know, there are women, I mean, I have friends, I know people who, you know,
43:36 system at home is not so strong, and they struggle.
43:38 So there are 100% situation and they always are telling me that you're so lucky.
43:43 But you know, there are.
43:44 I mean, I would I would not disagree with you at all.
43:48 What about you Suparna on this?
43:50 How do women support each other in your profession, in your work and around you?
43:56 Being a media professional, I'm asking you Suparna.
43:59 So Lakshmi, I essentially feel that women somehow tend to not ask for help.
44:07 And in all my interactions that I've had with very senior corporate professionals,
44:12 they have said that we've been able to get by only through a support system, especially
44:18 when you're also raising a family along with managing professional lives.
44:24 So it's like, you know, it takes a village to raise a child and especially so when the
44:30 woman is also working outside the home, as well as inside.
44:34 So it needs that kind of support from everybody.
44:38 You know, and that's what my experience is.
44:40 And you know, in terms of the kind of hurdles that one faces, I remember my daughter, of
44:49 course, she's now 22 years old.
44:54 And she recently mentioned to me, she said, Mom, you've always been my, because I'm a
44:59 single mother.
45:00 So she says, you've always been my mother as well as my father.
45:04 It's time now you just be my mother.
45:07 You raised me, you've educated me.
45:09 I'm going out and I'm, she's now doing a graduation project.
45:13 She says, now you've raised me into a full fledged, beautiful human being.
45:18 Now it's time you just be my mother and relax.
45:20 Don't be my father anymore.
45:23 So and challenges, of course, there are there.
45:27 You know, I remember when I was in radio and with a small daughter at home, for me, my
45:34 priority was after finishing my tasks, I need to get back home to my daughter, right?
45:40 Because I would want that one hour to play with her in the park.
45:44 And also my parents were full on supporting me.
45:47 My mother has been there like a solid rock, literally for me.
45:53 And the reason why I could do or achieve or go many further miles in my career and personal
45:58 life is primarily because she was there.
46:01 She looked after my child as her own child.
46:05 And I could never, you know, thank her enough for it.
46:09 I do.
46:10 But the fact is, I could never achieve as much if she wasn't there.
46:15 So so coming back to that anecdote, wherein I wanted to go back and spend time with my
46:20 daughter, she was about six years old at that point in time.
46:23 And the favorite part of the day was going out to the park.
46:27 And it seemed that it wasn't really looked upon in a very positive light in the professional
46:37 scheme of things, because for the boys or the men, it was more like, okay, where are
46:43 we going to go pubbing tonight, or maybe catching a beer, or it was almost like a back slapping
46:49 boys club, wherein the women and there was another single woman were typecast or stereotyped
46:55 into, ye toh 6 baje ghar chale jaayenge apne, yeah, you know, the why are they not committed
47:01 to the work as much, you know, why can't they stay late nights till seven o'clock or eight
47:05 o'clock or nine o'clock?
47:07 It's not like you shy away from working late.
47:11 But if you can work smart, and finish all your work in the designated time, why do you
47:17 need to extend that to a seven o'clock or an eight o'clock and then go out for a meal
47:21 or, you know, a drink or something?
47:23 It's not like I did not do that, because it's essential for a woman to also, you know, let
47:29 her hair down and interact with friends and network and all of this normally happens over
47:34 the evenings.
47:35 But it's not on a daily basis, which is a priority.
47:38 The priority definitely lies in also nurturing the family.
47:42 So there's a balance that you all need to mention, maintain, and you've said it very
47:49 nicely, when work finishes, you want to go back to your child.
47:51 But sometimes there are hiccups in the organization and questions being asked, why can't you come
47:57 home, come for a drink with your colleagues?
48:00 Shikha, do you face similar situations as well?
48:05 Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely, we do.
48:10 But it's again, your priority, right?
48:12 Like, depending on, sure, I mean, you would definitely want to go out for a drink with
48:17 your colleagues.
48:18 But there are times, it can't be every day.
48:21 But of course, there has to be a balance.
48:26 So while I would like to, you know, go out with my friends, but I have a 10 year old
48:29 at home who starts calling me at 7.30 every evening and like, what time are you coming?
48:34 What time are you coming?
48:35 And every day, before I leave, he would ask me what time so I tell him, I'm not gonna
48:40 give you a time because you know, you're gonna call me start calling me at that time.
48:43 And maybe I will not be able to make it.
48:45 You know, but like, again, coming back to the point that we were making that, you know,
48:49 I have a boy, okay, and it's how I raise him tomorrow is going to be the future of the
48:54 women.
48:55 You know, so I think today, if I tell him to respect women, you know, he sees the kind
49:00 of work we are doing.
49:01 And we are so focused on women led stories.
49:04 And you know, he like he asked me, you know, you make films only with these women and why
49:09 is it like that?
49:10 Because so it is a conscious effort that we are making to, you know, tell these beautiful,
49:16 sensitive, inspirational, aspirational stories, and where I want my son to look at them and
49:22 you know, and respect each woman when he grows up.
49:26 And, and the first thing I teach him even now, like, you know, you need to take care
49:30 of every single girl in your class.
49:33 You don't have to be a brother, you don't have to be you can just be a friend.
49:37 But you know, I spoke to him about, you know, periods, when he was I think last year when
49:44 he was barely eight or something.
49:47 And he didn't need to know but I thought it was important for him to know because tomorrow
49:51 if his friend you know, in the class is going through something and he sees a stain, he
49:57 could walk up to her and say I can help, you know, and that that would be the day when
50:01 I'll be the most proud, you know, of him.
50:04 So I think it's how you raise your child and it takes a yeah, it takes a village for a,
50:10 you know, child to grow and we need to in fact, keep that intact.
50:13 And we need to protect our children and other people's children and only when our men will
50:18 learn, you know, our women, our girls will be alright.
50:22 Alka ji, your take on this, like how we should raise our sons or our young boys in our families
50:31 for better tomorrow?
50:34 Now the question you've asked me is a very, very difficult question for me, because I
50:39 come from a family where there were no brothers, we were four sisters.
50:43 So and I had a very strong, powerful, enlightened, very well educated mother, who was a poet
50:50 and a musician.
50:52 And my grandfather was a scholar, my maternal grandfather of Bali and a great.
50:58 I also am a mother of a single child, a daughter.
51:02 So you see, for me, I didn't know that women couldn't be empowered.
51:07 I didn't know, how do you bring up boys, it's only when I got married, and I saw certain
51:15 differences happening.
51:17 And my very feminist husband who came from a family of brothers and sisters, he had four
51:21 sisters and two brothers.
51:23 So where you have lots of sisters, you also become more sensitive to women, you also see
51:28 how your sisters are being, you know, treated and how things are happening for them.
51:37 So one day he told me in a very joking way, that, you know, if you had a brother and you
51:41 had a bhabhi, then you would know.
51:43 So I kind of took heed of what he said.
51:45 And I realized that however enlightened he is, there is the thing that he's a boy, and
51:54 the others are girls.
51:55 So this is very, very tough a question.
51:58 I would just say that it is important to make the boy aware that there is a woman who may
52:08 be physically not that strong, but emotionally, she's very powerful.
52:14 There are two beings, like the positive and the negative, the yin, the yang, the purush,
52:20 the prakriti, all that, but two different people have to respect each other.
52:27 The most important thing for me in any relationship is first respect, two, empathy, three, kindness.
52:38 So if you imbue your son or daughter, both equally with that, that is the way to bring
52:46 up an offspring.
52:48 Because I am telling you, the young girls today are extremely conscious of their rights.
52:55 And unfortunately, what comes from the West is becoming deeply aggressive here.
53:02 So mutual respect, mutual kindness, empathy, if you inscribe that in any offspring, that's
53:10 the best.
53:12 I wouldn't say have a different parameter for boys, have a different parameter for girls,
53:17 because if you do that, you're already establishing the difference.
53:21 The idea is that you respect each other in spite of the difference, because we are different.
53:27 A woman is a woman and a man is a man.
53:30 Our DNAs are different, our ways, the way we are nurtured are different, our professions
53:35 sometimes are different.
53:36 But even in your professional space, the most important thing is respect, empathy, kindness.
53:44 These are the three qualities I live and swear by.
53:47 Thank you so much.
53:48 Thank you so much, all of you, for your enlightening talk, and it was great having you for the webinar, and we take home that empathy, respect, we should do it to each other irrespective of gender. Thank you.
54:03 Thank you so much.
54:06 >> Thank you.
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