The full interview between René Meulensteen and ManchesterWorld’s Michael Plant.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to this special Manchester World video where this afternoon I am joined by former Manchester United coach Rennie Mullenstein,
00:09 who is on to speak to me about the launch of his latest book, which is United, Sir Alex and Me, which is out now.
00:17 Fantastic, Rennie, to have you with us. How are you?
00:20 I'm very well, thank you. I'm pleased to eventually have a real copy in my hands. So, yeah, I'm very, very pleased with that.
00:28 Why did you decide to write a book? How did you come to that decision and how was the process in writing it?
00:36 Over the years, quite a few people have already sort of asked me and said, listen, you should write a book.
00:43 I mean, there's so much you've done and obviously your time at Manchester United and there's so much knowledge and expertise and,
00:51 you know, there's so many things to share, really. And, you know, I've obviously thought it was actually Wayne, Wayne Barton,
00:58 that has sort of helped me write the book that actually approached me as well.
01:02 And one of the ambassadors events that it did for the Norwegian Supporters Club and Wayne was there with a lot of different kind of books.
01:10 And he said as well, this is are you planning of writing a book at some point?
01:15 And that's how the contact started with Wayne and we followed it up. And it took still took a bit of a while before we got going,
01:21 because it's always, you know, it's very time consuming and you need to also think about, OK, how are we going to, you know,
01:27 how are we going to shape the book? What sort of, you know, what sort of, you know, path do we want to follow?
01:33 And eventually when we got that, Wayne and I got together and it's been over two years in the making.
01:39 So it took a little bit of time, but I'm very happy. And it's actually funny, really, that it coincides with with 10 years now.
01:48 So Alex Ferguson left Manchester United. I mean, somebody asked me, did you did you do that on purpose?
01:54 You know, 10 years after. No, not really. But it coincides with it, which is obviously, you know, an interesting number.
02:01 But yeah, so that was that was mainly the reason behind it.
02:06 And I really hope that the readers find it interesting and informative and maybe educational at some point.
02:14 So looking forward to to hear the feedback.
02:18 Well, you couldn't pick anyone better to work with than Wayne and his experience writing Manchester United books.
02:23 He's written about every, feels like every significant figure with United.
02:27 So, yeah, fantastic experience to write it with him. And how did you find the experience?
02:32 Did you enjoy it? Did you find it difficult or challenging?
02:36 No, no, because what I did actually myself, I sort of wrote the outline of the book in terms of, you know,
02:44 the sort of topics and chapters that I want to and that helped Wayne a lot, you know, and basically what we did,
02:50 we sort of picked a particular day in the week, normally Thursdays,
02:54 where we got together for an hour and a half to two hours.
02:57 Wayne recorded everything about our conversations and then wrote it, sort of wrote it down.
03:04 And then it came back to me. And, you know, as the book progressed, where I felt we need we need a little bit more substance to it,
03:11 a bit more detail in it than I sort of added all that.
03:15 So it's been a really, you know, a really, you know, a process of working together closely, Wayne and I.
03:23 And yeah, I actually enjoyed it. Yeah.
03:28 And what comes across from it so much is that how affectionate you still feel towards United
03:35 and how big an influence they had in your life and how big a role that they played.
03:40 I know obviously you were there for 11 years, but you still feel a real affinity with the club now.
03:44 Twelve. Twelve. Twelve. Apologies.
03:48 Well, I don't know you do, because it is like in Barcelona, the same masculine club,
03:54 but it's exactly the same than here with Manchester United. It's more than a club.
03:58 And just because of the fact that I've, you know, came in in 2001, I came in as a skills development coach.
04:06 You sort of see the complete, actually, you know, the beginning of where it all starts at Manchester United,
04:12 when these young kids come through the door with all the development centres and advanced centres
04:16 and try to shape up that technical skill development programme and educating coaches,
04:21 educating parents. And you see a lot of those young kids come through the door.
04:25 And, you know, the likes of Marcus Rashford, you know, I can still remember him coming running through the doors of the cliff
04:31 at Lyttelton Road. And there's many, many more that you can mention.
04:36 But then you sort of progress with the club. You start to try to influence different parts of it.
04:41 Individual training with first team players started to come, and that was very well received.
04:47 Then you got the opportunity, you know, to do the reserves, which was another step,
04:52 because then you could sort of link all that skill development work, all the technical work
04:56 with individual players into a team setting, which was great for me with that team that we had and the players.
05:05 And if you see then, you know, the fruits of it in the style of play and the performances
05:13 and the results is fantastic. And I always believe very strongly that even at first team level
05:18 with first team players, you can still add that one, two, three, maybe to 5%.
05:22 And that 5% can make a huge difference in terms of winning or losing and eventually winning,
05:28 you know, winning trophies.
05:30 You then, you mentioned that you came in, you started at the youth level.
05:33 You eventually end up working with the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney, Ryan Giggs,
05:38 you know, these elite Manchester United players. Do you think the fact that you started
05:43 with the kids essentially, do you think that it changed how you treated or interacted with them?
05:49 You know, it's quite a, most coaches I suspect haven't maybe been with the kids,
05:53 worked with the kids so recently and then suddenly these massive superstars.
05:56 Do you think it changed your outlook and how you approach that?
06:00 Well, it's two different, completely different aspects of your coaching job.
06:04 You know, if you work with kids, which is equally as important as working with senior players
06:11 and first team players, because if you get it wrong at the beginning, you're playing catch up
06:15 throughout the rest of their career. So the only, the big difference is that when you work
06:20 at grassroots level with young kids of the age of six, seven and nine,
06:24 your whole approach in terms of the way that you speak to the kids,
06:27 how you deliver the message is completely different.
06:31 You know, then, you know, when you're working with, you know, with first team players,
06:36 the biggest thing I feel and the biggest coaching message that I've also wrapped up
06:42 in the book is, is that when I used to coach players, whether it's a team
06:46 or whether it's individuals, but especially with individuals, I would never use the word change.
06:51 I would never say to players, listen, I think we need to change this in your game
06:56 because then straight away the players go change. What am I doing wrong?
07:00 So I would always use the word add. And I would say to the players, listen,
07:04 in your position, you get in these and these situations.
07:07 And if we can add this to your game, you become more complete or more unpredictable
07:12 or more effective, whatever it is. And straight away, when you use the word add,
07:16 people are more receptive. And they want to say, because add is more.
07:20 They want to know what it is. What is it? What do you have to give me?
07:24 And that is an important approach in terms of, because obviously where you start
07:29 with young kids, you basically, you know, working at the base and you're giving
07:34 as much as they can. You just create an environment where the kids can have fun,
07:38 where they learn through playing and it can experience, you know,
07:41 through success and failure. With senior players, you have to be really pinpointing
07:46 certain elements of the game that you can add and that they can use straight away
07:51 because it needs to be functional and effective. And that is the big difference
07:55 between coaching senior players, first team players at first team level,
07:58 or when you're working with very young players.
08:02 And the player that, I mean, you touch on it straight away in the book,
08:05 the player that you're credited a lot with working with was, of course,
08:09 Cristiano Ronaldo, who in that period from, let's say, 2007 to 2009,
08:15 became just this global superstar. Were even you surprised at just how much
08:22 he developed in those years and how much he progressed?
08:25 No, not at all. Not at all, because the moment he walked through the door,
08:30 when he was, I think, 18, when he came to Manchester United,
08:34 and straight away you could see he was very focused, he was very determined
08:38 and he knew exactly what he wanted. And he would embrace everything
08:43 to become the player that he has become. Not only the stuff that I did with him,
08:47 but in terms of the strength and conditioning stuff that he did with Mike Clegg initially
08:52 and later on with Tony Stradick. Very important, because he felt,
08:56 I need to be stronger, I need to become the ultimate athlete, which he has become.
09:01 And that was important. From my end, I felt I need to sort of make Cristiano
09:08 as functional and effective as I can be in his all-round game and very productive
09:17 in and around the goal. So those were the sort of things that I focused on.
09:21 And I'm sure that all the conversations he's had with the managers of Alex Ferguson,
09:26 with Mick Fielding, with Carlos Quiroz, they all contributed all to that process
09:30 of eventually progressing really well within United, because he came to United
09:37 as a boy, but he left a man. And we sort of, I think, put a really good base for him
09:46 in place that when he came to Real Madrid, he had a fantastic sort of,
09:51 already some really good years behind him in terms of training, in terms of games
09:58 and game experience that he could build on at Real Madrid, which he did.
10:03 When you returned to the club in 2007, it was after a period where United
10:10 had gone three years without winning a league title, which in Alex Ferguson's reign
10:15 was a very long time. There were concerns at the time that perhaps United
10:20 had been bypassed a little bit by other clubs. Was that ever a sense or a concern
10:25 around the club, or was there always a belief that United would get back
10:29 to winning league titles?
10:31 Well, a concern, I wouldn't say necessarily a concern, but as long as Alex Ferguson
10:36 was there, there was no doubt that we were going to get back. It was just a matter
10:40 of making sure that we did get the best possible squad available for us.
10:47 And I think the squad that we had, when I returned with the signings that we did,
10:52 that Michael Carey came in and so many other players, we had a fantastic,
11:02 balanced squad with a lot of experience, with the likes of Gary Nadler,
11:06 Riyad Ferdinand, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes. And we had an abundance of talent
11:13 with Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Nani, Valencia. Later on, we brought players
11:21 in like Tevez and Berbatov. So that squad was really, really strong.
11:25 That had a lot of world-class quality in that squad. So it was just a matter again
11:30 of making sure that we were going to tick all the boxes and returning performances
11:35 in results. So it wasn't a concern, it was just a matter of making sure that we had
11:41 the squad again up to speed, which we did. And as soon as we did that,
11:44 the performances came, the results came and the trophies came.
11:48 I'm sure fans just must speak to you all the time, celebrate that period from 2007
11:53 to 2013, where you won four titles in six seasons. I mean, that was an incredibly
11:59 successful period for the club, including, of course, the Champions League victory
12:03 in 2008. I mean, when you look back at that period of your life, you must just look
12:07 at it so fondly.
12:09 You are. You are. And it is amazing, really, what we did achieve. And it was the most
12:14 successful period in the history. But I think if you ask anybody, including myself,
12:19 and I think a lot of players, they would still say we should have had a league title
12:25 more. We lost one with one point. We lost one against City on one goal.
12:29 So those are marginal. I think, again, the players will still look back at those
12:35 two Champions League finals against Barcelona, where they think, listen,
12:40 we could have done better at times. We were not at our best. I always remember the
12:46 game after Wembley when we played a friendly in Washington a few weeks later
12:50 in pre-season and we stuck to the same things, the same plan and everything,
12:55 and we executed it perfectly. And we won that game. But then there was nothing
12:59 at stake. And that is the difference, when it matters. And there's fine margins.
13:06 We always felt it was going to be a difficult game because we knew that Barcelona
13:10 was a better team than they were in Rome because they were still a team in progress
13:17 on the Pep Guardiola. But I thought at Wembley they were at their very best.
13:22 And everything that we sort of set out to do was basically making sure that we were
13:26 still in the game with maybe 20, 25 minutes to go. Because we did feel that we had
13:32 better players on the bench to bring on and sort of to change the game. But we
13:37 never got into a position where we could force Barcelona back in such a way that
13:44 we could really start to ask questions and create chances. And they obviously
13:49 scored the early goal in the second half. And then it became an uphill struggle.
13:54 When it was 3-1, it was almost impossible because they were absolutely masters
14:00 in keeping the ball. But that's the thing. That doesn't take away from everything
14:06 that you have achieved. I'm just saying that the players were so eager every year.
14:11 It wasn't a matter of if we're going to win anything. It was a matter of what we're
14:16 going to win. And that was very, very clear from the start. Those ambitions,
14:19 they were very clear. It was the Premier League, go as far as we can in the Champions
14:23 League, try to win the FA Cup and then the League Cup. And if you won the
14:28 Charity Shield, that was a bonus as a curtain raiser when the league starts.
14:32 But, yeah, winning was in the DNA. And that shone through. So everything that we
14:38 did at the time with Sir Alex Ferguson, and it was the identity and the culture
14:42 that he created over so many years.
14:45 It is impossible to, I suppose, put it into a couple of words, the impact that
14:51 Sir Alex Ferguson had. But if you could pinpoint just one aspect of his career
14:58 that just made him so successful, what do you think it would be?
15:05 I think you can't pinpoint it to one thing. I think the biggest thing in sort
15:10 of what I was there, I thought, was the fact that he was an absolute master
15:17 in delegating. And to be able to delegate, you need to be able to trust the people
15:22 around you. He always used to say, "If I can't trust you in your job, then I
15:27 might as well do it myself." And he trusted. He trusted Mick, Carlos when he
15:31 was there, myself, Eric Steele, Tony Strelnik and all that. So that created a
15:36 lot of room and space for himself to concentrate on other things, to manage
15:41 to sort of... He never lost control. He knew everything, what was going on.
15:45 But there are so many more things. And you would do almost a disrespect if you
15:49 pinpointed to one thing. But delegation was big. I think his adaptability, the
15:54 fact that he started in '86 and he's built I don't know how many successful
15:59 teams with the likes of Brian Robson and Steve Bruce and all of them when he
16:06 started off with. And he finished off with players like Danny Welbeck and Fabio
16:11 Rafa da Silva that could have been his grandkids. So you need to have that
16:15 adaptability to go with the times, to go with the generation, to go also with all
16:20 the changes that are taking place over that particular period, over those 26
16:24 years. Technology came in, at the back end, social media came in, all those
16:29 things. But yeah, those were massively in a part. For more than that, his
16:36 decision-making was key at times at United. Obviously, his man management,
16:42 outstanding communication, listening to everybody, the knowledge and expertise
16:48 that he brought to the club and his position. And last but not least, his
16:52 drive, his commitment. That was never in question and never in doubt. If you talk
16:57 about leaders, leaders motivate and direct. But he leapt from the front.
17:04 And it was just a special, almost a special sort of strength that he sort of
17:14 portrayed to everybody else in and around Carrington. And we've fed from that,
17:19 you know, in whatever you did at the club. And the other thing I think I have
17:24 to mention is because if you think of a club like Manchester United and the size
17:29 of it and the ambitions that they have and being the best that they can be and
17:33 everything, you would think there's a lot of pressure on a daily basis on
17:38 everybody, on staff and players, because of the expectations that were there.
17:42 But I mentioned it before, his man management was so outstanding. I've never,
17:46 as a first-team coach at my time, I never felt any of that pressure. Never once.
17:51 Never in a negative way. Yes, we knew what we had to do. We knew that we had to,
17:57 you know, put the best training sessions on that we could. We knew that we had to
18:01 prepare the best game analysis that we wanted to provide for the players, etc.
18:06 There were so many things, but I never felt, you know, anxious, so to speak.
18:13 You know, when I came into Carrington, I loved every minute of it, and so did
18:16 everybody else. And it was a really great environment, what he created.
18:20 There was not one day that we didn't laugh about something. I think that was
18:24 one of his enormous strengths as well, his great sense of humour. He'd relax
18:29 everybody and have a joke with everybody. And that's why we never got carried
18:34 away with a heist. We never got carried away with a loss. You know, we were a
18:37 very steady, moving, you know, operation at that particular time.
18:44 And then obviously, Charles left in 2013, and you followed very quickly.
18:50 When you look back at that period, and David Moyes coming in, how do you reflect
18:53 on that period now, a decade on?
18:59 How do you say it? What's the best word to say? Maybe disappointed.
19:07 Are you still disappointed how it went?
19:10 Oh, but disappointed, yeah. Disappointed in the way that it sort of all
19:13 panned out, because you would think that, you know, the club and the size of the
19:17 club, and many of us, you would make sure, especially with such a manager that
19:23 has been there for so many years, that you would think, OK, what are we going to
19:27 do when he does that? Just decide to go, there needs to be a succession plan.
19:30 And I cover that in a book, obviously with a chat that I had with David Gill.
19:35 But David obviously moved on himself, and not very long after that, so Alex,
19:40 you know, made it known that he was going to retire. So then the succession plan
19:46 has to come from somewhere else. So it has to come from the owners and other
19:50 people within the club. And then you have to ask the question, yeah, was it right
19:55 for Manchester United? See, hindsight is an easy thing and a great thing,
19:59 because when you can look back after everything, how it's unfolded, it's easy
20:03 to say, yeah, you know, I told you so. But nobody knew that, but I think everybody
20:08 wanted one thing, only one thing, me included, was obviously the best for
20:11 Manchester United, and to stay successful, to remain successful, even with a
20:16 different manager. And that was the disappointing thing that I felt, not only
20:21 me, but myself, McPheel and Tony Strelnik, everybody that was part of that,
20:26 you know, Eric Steele, that operation room that basically helped so Alex Ferguson
20:33 and the players to be so successful, that sort of got dismantled. That to me was
20:37 the biggest disappointment of all. And obviously 10 years on, we look back and
20:43 say it's really a little bit sad to see that it has unfolded in that way.
20:50 - And are you surprised 10 years on just how difficult it's been for the club
20:53 since Alex left, and the fact that, you know, there hasn't been a league title
20:56 since then, that United have lagged behind the very elite in the Premier League
21:01 in Europe?
21:02 - Yeah, I think on the subject of Alex Ferguson, there's two words that spring
21:07 to my mind, and what every successful organisation has, and also every
21:11 successful football club, which is stability and consistency. And consistency
21:17 has to do with a vision of how you want to be successful over the short, medium
21:21 and long term. The stability is created by the people, the staff, the people that
21:26 you bring in and be there for a long, long time. Those two words, stability
21:32 and consistency, that has been replaced by inconsistency, sorry, continuity,
21:38 has been replaced by inconsistency in terms of the amount of managers that have
21:42 come in, and every manager has got his own views and his own background and his
21:46 own ideas, and brings his own staff. So there was a constant, like, renewal of
21:52 new people coming in, with new ideas that, again, the players have to get used to,
21:59 new styles of play, you know. But inconsistency is the big word that has
22:06 replaced those two things, and I think that is the hardest thing for any manager
22:11 to get that right, and obviously Eric van Harck is working really hard to bring
22:15 that back, that continuity and stability. But obviously that goes with time.
22:25 You don't get that over one season, that has to do with a number of years to get
22:30 that back, and then, you know, hopefully the results will come and United will
22:35 get back to challenging for titles and win titles, and if you do that, then you're
22:38 back to where you were.
22:40 And what's your view now of the team under Eric ten Hag? It feels like this is,
22:46 I suppose, the most structured things I've felt, maybe, perhaps in the last
22:51 decade, and Eric ten Hag have got a fantastic manager.
22:54 I think everybody realises that, listen, you can't keep, you know, chopping and
23:01 changing the manager every two years or whatever it is. I think Oli was the one
23:06 that sat there the longest, I think three years or something. But, like, you look
23:11 at David Moyes, you look at van Gaal, you look at Mourinho, you know, no more
23:16 than two years or less, and obviously Oli came in and then Rangnick took over a
23:21 little bit at the end, but, again, inconsistency throughout.
23:24 Now with Eric, you know, he's somebody that has established himself
23:29 predominantly with Ajax in Holland, which is a big club, a massive club in Holland,
23:33 did very well in Europe in the Champions League. He's got a very distinctive style
23:36 of play of football, how he wants to play. I think we've seen plenty of snippets
23:41 of that. I think there's still a little bit of, and I still am sure that that is
23:46 something he will reflect on and we'll ensure that that is not going to happen
23:52 this year. I'm not saying that it's not going to happen at all, but hopefully
23:55 not as many times as it did last season, the times that they didn't really perform
24:00 to the level, you know, when they did lose, they lost in a manner where they
24:04 never really showed up. So that is a part that needs to be addressed. I think
24:07 overall Eric can look back to a good season for himself. He can be really
24:12 pleased with that because you win a trophy, you know, you're in another final,
24:16 which you lost, obviously, to City, and you finished third and you're back
24:22 in the Champions League. But that's OK and that's great for Eric, but for United,
24:29 it is no more than an OK season because United, and everybody knows that,
24:34 and Eric knows that, they want to be challenging and snapping at the heels
24:39 of Manchester City and going for the title again. So I think he's made some
24:45 really good signings. I know Anana, obviously from Ajax, and he knows him,
24:49 so he's got a few players now that he's worked with at Ajax and he tries to
24:53 build that strong, you know, that's full backbone through the team.
24:59 Mount is, I think, also bought with the eye to the future, with obviously
25:03 Eriksen a bit older and Casimiro a bit older, but still somebody that can
25:08 contribute and knows and understands what the Premier League is about.
25:12 And then obviously Hoylund is a really exciting signing and, you know,
25:16 hopefully he can hit the ground running. He's not the finished article,
25:20 but he's one of those players that United is renowned for. They bring that
25:23 sort of talent into United and potential and, you know, they make him
25:29 into absolutely world-class players. So he's definitely got the features
25:32 to do that. So, yeah, I think he's on the right track and I hope
25:36 they really can carry on.
25:38 And the final question for me, I suppose, Rennie, is that, I mean, you have spoken
25:42 so much about your affinity and your affection still for United.
25:45 If the opportunity ever came up to return to the club in any capacity,
25:48 would it be anything that would interest you still?
25:51 It would always have interest and you would always consider it,
25:53 depending what it is. I mean, obviously I'm not Rennie Moolenstein anymore.
25:57 I was 35, you know, and doing all the stepovers and the tricks and then
26:01 flipping one over your head and pinging one in the corner.
26:04 You didn't have any of your stepovers, I can tell you that.
26:08 That's by the by, but, you know, like I said, sometimes you have to just,
26:12 you know, it's not a frustration for me at all in the respect at some point
26:16 you have to just accept what it is.
26:18 Everybody moves on and I've moved on.
26:21 And I have to say the last five years with Australia have been an exception,
26:27 an exceptional chapter in my career as well, you know,
26:30 which I really enjoyed. International football, you know, Australia,
26:36 you know, the way that we got qualified for the World Cup,
26:39 the way that we presented ourselves at the World Cup has been outstanding.
26:44 So I'm very, very happy with that.
26:46 But in football, it's like, you know, you never say never, you know,
26:49 never close the door, never close the door on anything because I never have.
26:54 You know, there was just a situation that just played out in a way that,
26:59 you know, that, you know, I felt that, you know, it wasn't right to stay
27:05 because of the changes that were taking place.
27:08 But, you know, it's a club that will always be a big part of my life,
27:12 will always be in my heart and always will be.
27:15 Great. Well, Rennie, from myself, thank you very much for taking the time out.
27:19 I've had a read through parts of the book and it's fantastic.
27:22 And, yeah, thank you very much for taking the time out to speak to me.
27:25 No problem.