Spiritual Guru Sri M On Religion, Politics And His New Book ‘Shunya’
Spiritual Guru Sri M as he shares his insights on religion, politics, and his latest book 'Shunya'. Discover his profound perspectives on spirituality, the intersection of religion and politics, and the wisdom encapsulated in his transformative new book. Gain a deeper understanding of life's mysteries and embark on a spiritual journey like no other.
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Transcript
00:00 As far as India is concerned, the roots of Indian spiritual life, even you cannot disprove
00:13 it, is that it sees everything as a multi-coloured phenomenon, this world.
00:20 Two thousand years ago the Rig Veda said, "Ekam Sat Vipra Baudha Vedanti" – there
00:27 is only one truth, the wise may call it by different names.
00:31 So if one says that I am steeped in my culture, they cannot overtly do too many things which
00:38 will make it break, not possible.
00:42 Somewhere even if consciously trying it for political purposes or something, they will
00:47 come to some point where they will have to stop and say, "No, no, no, this cannot be,
00:52 it cannot work."
00:52 Hello and welcome to Outlook Bibliophile.
01:04 This week it's not a full-time author, writer that we have in the show, but he is a spiritual
01:10 guru and he has come up with, of course he has written books, his new book is just out,
01:16 Meet Sri M. Thank you very much for joining Bibliophile.
01:21 This book, The Himalayan Master, a Yogi's Autobiography, this came in 2016, or 2016,
01:29 three years ago now?
01:30 I think a little more than that.
01:32 Okay, two years ago and it went on to become an instant bestseller and now he has come
01:38 up with another book called Shunya, which as he calls it's a novel.
01:43 So we'll come to that a little later.
01:45 I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about, you know, the Yogi's autobiography
01:49 first.
01:50 Reading the book it seems that, you know, you are actually, I mean of course it's
01:55 your life story and throughout the book you come across as a seeker, you know, rather
02:00 than a preacher, which is what, I mean, I found it quite interesting.
02:05 So are you still a seeker?
02:08 Well, I think I have found what I saw, but I don't like the preacher kind of communication
02:18 because it's like you know everything and you are standing on the rooftop and you are
02:22 preaching to God.
02:24 Even though I think I have found what I was looking for, I think the best way to put it
02:31 across to people is through dialogue, through talking to them, asking them questions, having
02:39 a dialogue.
02:40 It's like, you know, actually I believe also because of my experience that every human
02:49 being has some kind of a spark in them.
02:54 Might not have become a big fire, but the spark is there.
02:57 It looks like, you know, you are bro beating people by just preaching.
03:02 I would rather that people talk to me and naturally discover what I have experienced,
03:08 which is why it appears like that.
03:10 Plus the fact that for me, the hero in the autobiography is Maheshwar Nath Babaji, my
03:18 Guru, not me.
03:20 So during my growing years, of course I was a seeker.
03:23 So that's why it appears like that and it is all about that.
03:28 Also the other thing is apart from, you know, the finding the Guru, it is really speaking
03:34 sort of a travelogue.
03:36 I mean it is the journey of a young boy who is 19, you know, who just starts walking from
03:42 Kerala and reaches the Himalayas.
03:45 Actually I have to correct you there.
03:47 I didn't walk from Kerala.
03:49 I went to Rishikesh and started walking.
03:54 So yes, it was a travelogue for me also because new places, new things, new experiences.
04:01 Although the Himalayas had always fascinated me, I never had any understanding of what
04:08 it actually is when you go there.
04:11 This was for me a great experience.
04:13 So how did a 19 year old boy in Trivandrum, in Trivandrum, start dreaming of the snows?
04:20 When I was very small also, whenever I looked up at the sky and saw the clouds, I thought
04:27 there were some snow clad mountains.
04:29 From childhood, I mean it is like four years, five years I used to sit and stare and say,
04:35 'Hey, this is how the mountains are.'
04:37 For some time then I went to school, I saw some pictures of the Himalayas and I said,
04:43 I think this is what I was thinking about, contemplating on.
04:47 So it was always there in me, you know.
04:50 So then when I reached there, it was all excitement because, you know, I will give you an example.
04:56 You keep walking, when you go to Kedar for instance, you can either go on a mule or walk,
05:02 but some distance you walk, as you keep walking, for a long time you won't see any of the ice
05:09 clad mountains, long time.
05:13 Suddenly at some point from Rambara, you turn the corner and there it stands in all its
05:19 majesty.
05:20 Even people who don't believe in God and all the spiritual dreams, they will be taken
05:24 aback at this sight.
05:25 I have seen many people who just come like tourists.
05:28 It's an overwhelming experience and especially for me who was thinking of the Himalayas all
05:34 the time and then later on I read about the Himalayas also of course, but even after reading
05:41 of other people traveling, you don't know what it is unless you see it.
05:48 It's something extraordinary.
05:49 Interviewer - In fact, this seems to be another trait of spiritual Gurus from Adi Shankaracharya
05:54 to, you know, they won't travel.
05:57 So what is the thing about…
05:59 Travelling, one, gaining experience.
06:03 Two, being in unfamiliar territory.
06:06 Actually nobody asked me this question, you are asking me now.
06:09 I like this.
06:12 Unfamiliar territory.
06:13 Every day you are in a new place and that shows how the world is and how your mind should
06:17 adjust to everything that it comes and not get stuck in one design, one form.
06:24 When you walk, you see new places.
06:27 Every day is new and it is so uncertain.
06:31 You don't know what is going to happen and there are some people who don't like uncertainty.
06:35 For somebody who likes to uncertainty, then it's a wonderful experience.
06:40 You don't know where you are going.
06:41 Of course, I was thinking I might find a yogi teacher or somebody.
06:45 It was there in the back of my mind.
06:48 Long time I did not find anybody.
06:49 So it was an adventure for me.
06:51 In fact, there are some things which I have not even done.
06:53 Once I ended up sleeping in a cave where there was a bear.
06:57 I didn't know it was a bear's cave, you know, on the way from Gangotri to Gomukh.
07:03 There are many caves there.
07:05 I thought it's some yogi's dwelling.
07:07 It was stinking but I didn't realize until the fellow came at night.
07:10 Luckily, I don't know how I escaped.
07:12 I just lay down like this quietly.
07:14 I have heard people say that you must pretend to be dead.
07:17 So I held my breath.
07:19 It came near and made sounds.
07:22 I thought this is over and when I opened my eyes, I will be either in hell or heaven.
07:27 I don't know.
07:28 It depends on my karma.
07:29 When I opened my eyes, the fellow went off.
07:32 It was a full moon night.
07:34 Of course, you can't sleep after that.
07:35 So I spent quite a sleepless night.
07:38 Next day morning when I came out, the villagers, goat herds who were going, they started worshipping
07:43 me.
07:44 They said, "How did you sleep inside in that bear's cave?"
07:46 It's a bear's cave.
07:47 It's a bear's cave.
07:48 Yeah.
07:49 How did you?
07:50 You must be some divine being, some yogi or something.
07:52 So it does work, pretending to be dead in front of a bear.
07:55 It worked for me.
07:56 I don't know if it worked.
07:58 Not a good thing to experiment.
08:02 I wanted to ask you, why is it important to find a guru?
08:07 You know, spiritual field is largely unexplored territory.
08:15 You can go without a guru.
08:17 You might be able to go, extraordinary persons might be able to go, but there are many stumbling
08:26 blocks and there are many pits into which you can fall.
08:28 If you have a teacher, then you are saved from it.
08:31 And the search is also, the length of the search is reduced.
08:36 Provided it's the right teacher, that's there.
08:38 You can go to the wrong teacher and go on in the illusion that, "Oh, this is right,"
08:43 and end up in a greater pit, possible.
08:46 Generally, in the spiritual journey, you'll find most people had a teacher.
08:54 Extraordinary people like Ramana Maharshi did not have a teacher, but that is not normal.
09:00 It's not the normal, no.
09:03 If I decide, if somebody decides, "Oh, Ramana Maharshi didn't have a teacher, I want to
09:07 be free, I also don't want to be, I'll find out who I am," I don't know how long this
09:12 process will take.
09:13 You might be led away on the side somewhere also.
09:17 And now, of course, a lot of people consider you the teacher.
09:21 So I'm sure it comes with also that kind of responsibility, isn't it?
09:26 Big, big responsibility.
09:28 One of the greatest responsibilities that I learned from Maheshwarnath Babaji, my teacher,
09:36 was the teacher is not as important as what is being taught.
09:41 So apart from the responsibility of giving them the right direction, because there are
09:46 different kinds of people coming, I personally believe that there are many ways to go there
09:51 and luckily, Babaji is great, I have gone through many of the paths and I kind of have
09:57 a rough idea of what is good for somebody or if somebody thinks this is good for me,
10:02 how to guide them.
10:03 This I have, I think I can in some way.
10:08 So but that is one responsibility.
10:11 Although Krishnamurti says, "Truth is a pathless land," but I think there are many paths to
10:16 be true.
10:19 The other is the responsibility of seeing that they don't get inordinately attached to
10:24 the being, to the person and are very serious about what they are doing, the teachings.
10:31 This is a very, it's like walking on the edge of a razor, as Upanishads say, "Shurasya
10:40 dhara."
10:41 You know, it's very easy to turn into worship.
10:46 I avoid that, deliberately.
10:50 And you've said that, you know, what you're looking for is, it's not numbers, I mean,
10:55 it's not mass following, but it's quality of people who, I mean, you've mentioned that
11:00 in the book too.
11:01 Absolutely, but unfortunately or fortunately, nowadays there are too many people coming
11:06 to me also, but I don't know what to do about it.
11:09 But I think if they're not serious, they'll drop off afterwards.
11:14 I don't make a mistake about it.
11:17 So you know, in a country where Godmen are, I mean, I'm sure you're expecting this question,
11:23 but you know, Godmen have, you know, unfortunately have got this, you know, they're power hungry
11:28 or, you know, swindlers or molesters.
11:31 I mean, in that kind of, how do you reconcile to this?
11:36 I don't do such things.
11:38 No, no.
11:39 And I am out of it and I see that there are lots of people who do that.
11:46 What can you do?
11:47 I try to say what I know and how things are.
11:50 There's no point in going and telling them.
11:53 It's not going to work.
11:55 In fact, I am only hoping that if they find some, sometimes they feel it's better not
12:03 to have a teacher at all, than to have such kind of people as your guides.
12:09 You end up nowhere.
12:10 Yeah, because this is, as you were just saying, this is the kind of misuse of that responsibility,
12:14 isn't it?
12:15 There is somebody following you blindly and you're using them.
12:19 When you become a, if others look at you as a spiritual teacher, it is fraught with great
12:25 danger because it can be exploited, easily exploited.
12:29 People are odd, over odd and then you do what you want to do.
12:36 So it is tricky.
12:37 You should try your best to keep.
12:41 You know, you were born a Muslim and of course you are sort of well versed in so many scriptures
12:47 or so many religions, religious texts and Hindu.
12:52 Do you, I mean, you know, the current political scenario that is there in the country, does
12:58 it worry you that, you know, this syncretic culture that, you know, India has been sort
13:03 of so proud of?
13:04 Is it, do you think there is some kind of a danger to that?
13:10 As long as people don't forget their roots, even if it is steeped in tradition, as far
13:19 as India is concerned, the roots of Indian spiritual life, even you cannot disprove it,
13:26 is that it sees everything as a multi-coloured phenomenon, this world.
13:32 Two thousand years ago the Rig Veda said, "Ekam Sat Vipra Baudha Vedanti" – there
13:39 is only one truth, the wise may call it by different names.
13:43 So if one says that I am steeped in my culture, they cannot overtly do too many things which
13:50 will make it break.
13:53 Not possible.
13:54 Somewhere even if consciously trying it for political purpose or something, they will
13:59 come to some point where they will have to stop and say, "No, no, no, this cannot be.
14:04 It cannot work."
14:07 Because it's such a, you know, when all religions in the book, you talk about its
14:11 peace, its giving, its, you know, empathy, but unfortunately, you know, there is so much
14:18 hatred and violence and all over the world, I mean…
14:22 I have this to say that it's easier that this can happen in religions which have one
14:32 book and one teacher.
14:34 It's easier.
14:35 When you have multiple teachers, like the Vedas are the product of knowledge of hundreds
14:41 of Rishis, you can't say one person, you cannot ascribe.
14:45 In this kind of thing, it is very difficult to bring in that thing, even though there
14:53 might be attempts to bring in this kind of separation, but I think in the long run it
14:58 is not going to work because it's a duty of spiritual teachers to teach even those
15:04 who are in power, "Look, this is our culture, we cannot do this."
15:08 This is what I attempt to do.
15:10 I am in friendly terms with everybody.
15:13 I try to talk to them, make them understand, "Look, your culture is a great culture,
15:18 our culture is a great culture," but then it is very syncretic.
15:23 The problem is sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't, but if I talk this
15:29 way to a person from another religion, it is little bit difficult to convince them that
15:34 all paths lead to the same goal.
15:37 Little difficult to convince.
15:40 So there is this exclusiveness.
15:45 That also I am trying to work out, saying if you go back to your roots, there is no
15:49 such exclusiveness.
15:50 You have created it for a purpose.
15:53 Interviewer - And we would like to talk a little bit about his new book which is called
15:57 Shunya and as I said it is called a novel.
16:00 So this is, you know, novel is usually a work of fiction, but is this a work of fiction
16:07 then?
16:08 Because there is a lot of you in this.
16:09 I am sure.
16:10 I have to tell you something interesting.
16:11 When I wrote the autobiography, several people asked me whether is there at least some parts
16:18 which are fiction.
16:19 They said, in fact one of my close friends, much older than me, who knows me well said
16:27 that if somebody else had written this book, I would not have even read it because he knows
16:32 me from childhood.
16:33 He said, "I don't think you say any untruthful things."
16:35 So I am reading it and it is interesting.
16:38 But there was this feeling.
16:40 Now when I wrote Shunya, which is given as a novel and not a fiction book, people ask
16:46 me is that real?
16:50 It is very strange.
16:51 They ask, I think there is some you in the Shunya.
16:56 I said, look, when you write a book, there is bound to be part of you.
17:02 But why they are saying this is because there are many spiritual things also involved in
17:06 this.
17:07 Very briefly, this is, you know, so there is this character called Shunya who suddenly
17:12 appears in a toddy shop in a Kerala village, you know, to a toddy seller's house and he
17:19 starts to become, I mean, some consider him a ghost, some call him a madman, but then
17:24 he slowly starts to gain popularity.
17:27 I mean, just to give a brief idea of what the book is about.
17:30 So that's, yeah, so this Shunya character is very interesting.
17:33 Shunya character is woven out of the many avadhutas that I have met.
17:41 You know, there are a certain category of spiritual teachers called avadhutas.
17:46 They follow no social norms.
17:48 They have found something and it has blasted their minds out and they are like, the minds
17:54 have gone to pieces, not in a bad way, in a good way and there is no conditioning there,
17:59 it is totally, so they behave as they want in their own way, but it will never be to
18:04 harm somebody.
18:06 Such people I have met many, they don't have a name, they don't have ashramas, they don't
18:12 have banners, they have nothing.
18:15 Shunya is actually manufactured out of many such people put together.
18:23 That's what Shunya is all about and he comes from nowhere.
18:27 So somebody asks him, "What's your name?"
18:28 "My name is Shunya."
18:31 So where have you come from?
18:33 He said, "Does Shunya come from anywhere?
18:34 I mean it is zero."
18:36 And in three years after all the adventures, he just disappears.
18:45 Some people have also kind of compared you, called you the modern day Kabir Das, you know,
18:49 as sort of this, who is religionless, who is sort of just a wandering kind of poet and
18:56 spreading the, you know.
18:58 So I mean, do you identify with Kabir?
19:01 I do, I appreciate Kabir very much, but I am not exactly like that.
19:06 You know, Kabir never taught the Upanishads and Vedanta and all, even though in his teachings
19:11 it is reflected.
19:12 I go deep into that and I take up sloka by sloka, I explain and this Kabir didn't do.
19:18 But if you ask me, is there a common point, I think yes, because Kabir was also living
19:24 in a millennium where there was so much orthodoxy.
19:28 His guru was Ramananda, who was from an orthodox country.
19:31 He was born a Muslim, we were in Banaras.
19:34 He learnt and he became a wonderful soul.
19:36 In those days what Kabir said was dangerous to say, but he didn't care.
19:42 Yes, that's true.
19:43 There is some such connection is there.
19:46 In fact, so much of what Kabir said at that time, I don't know if it can be said freely
19:49 today.
19:50 Even today, see.
19:51 So that's the thing.
19:52 That's why I value, I think Kabir was a wonderful person.
19:59 When he said Ram, he meant the Supreme Being.
20:01 Yeah, that's true.
20:04 Thank you very much, Sri M. Thank you so much.
20:06 It was a delight to speak to you.
20:07 Thank you very much.
20:08 Thank you.
20:08 Thank you.