Amish, the author who made mythology cool, is a bestselling Indian writer in English whose books have sold five million copies. His new book, Raavan, the third in his Ramachandra series, after Ram and Sita, is the darkest and deals with a complex character. Amish talks about villains in our stories, how India is not proud of its culture and extr-eme religious positions with Satish Padmanabhan.
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00:00 I think one of the misfortunes of India is that our historians called the Turkic colonial
00:07 rule the Islamic rule.
00:08 Nobody calls the British colonial rule the Christian rule because everyone knows the
00:12 British colonial rule has nothing to do with Indian Christians.
00:16 But the Turkic colonial rule is called Islamic rule and in my mind this was a major mistake.
00:24 Islam didn't come to us through with the Turkic colonial people.
00:28 Islam came a lot earlier.
00:36 Hello and welcome to Outlook Bibliophile.
00:38 Today we have India's perhaps the only truly best selling author Amish who can have stickers
00:45 like this on his book cover which is 5 million copies sold.
00:50 It's a bit like a John Grisham or a JK Rowling.
00:53 I don't think any other Indian author can claim to have something like this on his books.
00:56 No I'm sure Chetan can.
00:57 Yeah maybe yeah.
00:59 One or two let's say.
01:00 Thank you very much Amish for joining Outlook Bibliophile.
01:03 It's a great delight to have you here.
01:05 And Amish as we know is also somebody who made Indian mythology kind of cool.
01:13 It just became you know from and it cuts through everybody.
01:16 It cuts through age, young, old, rich, poor, the intellectual, the illiterate, I mean the
01:23 sweep of this Indian mythology.
01:26 How were you swept by it?
01:29 You know you're right in a way.
01:32 You know I'd heard this wonderful line once that no Indian hears the Ramayana for the
01:36 first time.
01:37 We're just born with it.
01:40 And truly we're the oldest surviving major pagan culture, ancient culture.
01:48 Most other cultures have died out.
01:50 And we've survived for so long you know that these stories, our culture, our gods, our
01:56 goddesses, they're a part of our genes I guess.
01:59 And it's one of the things that defines us, that makes us Indian.
02:03 And I think most of us Indians love, or practically all of us, love exploring different aspects
02:10 of the stories of our gods and goddesses.
02:13 Learning from them, celebrating their victories and crying when they go through tragedy.
02:22 And you know applying those lessons in our life, it truly kind of defines us I think.
02:26 And you know there have been so many retellings and yet its power remains.
02:31 It's a, you know I think one of the reasons perhaps why our culture has remained alive
02:38 is our tradition of retellings.
02:40 You know because we keep the soul of the old but we add in something of the new.
02:44 You know so it keeps getting revived again and again in some ways for a new age.
02:50 In a sense we have the ideal mix of rigidity and flexibility.
02:54 Look if you're too rigid, you know if you're like a hard tree with strong roots, when a
02:59 hurricane comes you fall off right.
03:01 If you're too flexible like grass, you know, then you have no astitva of your own, anyone
03:06 can walk all over you.
03:07 You need a right mix of rigidity and flexibility, that's how you can survive.
03:11 And I guess maybe our stories help us do that because we have the rigidity of our ancient
03:17 love, you know for the stories which is a part of our soul but we keep adding in something
03:22 new repeatedly, every, you know with every new age, with every new epoch.
03:28 This new book Ravan, I mean you said that it's one of the darkest that you've attempted.
03:32 So what kind of research goes into this?
03:36 You know the way I live my life is I don't do research for a book.
03:41 The way I see it is whenever I'm not writing is my time for research.
03:45 And I don't do research with a specific aim in mind.
03:49 I just gather knowledge because I like gathering knowledge, that's it.
03:52 So I keep reading and where that knowledge will go and which book, I don't know and I
03:56 don't care.
03:57 It will go sometime, but I just keep gathering knowledge.
04:01 That one is through the process of reading.
04:03 Like I said I read a lot.
04:04 And the reading, it's all kinds of books?
04:07 Mainly non-fiction.
04:08 I don't read as much fiction, I read more non-fiction.
04:12 And my favorite genres are mythology, spirituality, science, politics, economics, you know so
04:21 these kind of subjects.
04:22 And so therefore it's not just reading.
04:24 I travel a lot as well and when I travel I like to travel as a local.
04:29 You know if I'm going to Kenya I should learn some words from there, some Maori words.
04:38 You know I should learn some things about their local ways.
04:43 Some things of the Maasai's there, you know the main tribe out there.
04:49 In fact I was fascinated by their warrior culture.
04:53 And I'm sure it will come in some book somewhere.
04:54 The way they looked at, how they created warriors.
05:01 The boys actually beyond a particular age moved away from family and lived in their
05:06 own kind of warriors camp.
05:07 There's no other word for it.
05:09 Where there were only men.
05:10 And it was a very hard warrior culture.
05:13 The way I see it, keep learning all the time.
05:16 You never know where it will get used in some book.
05:18 And Ravan particularly, you know he's a very complex, controversial character.
05:24 You know we all have various opinions about him.
05:27 And so how did you approach this, particularly for this book, how did you approach this complex
05:33 character?
05:34 What went into making the book?
05:37 He is a very dark character.
05:39 There's no doubt about it.
05:40 But I think he is different from your ordinary villain.
05:45 Just because he is so scholarly, he is such a complex, deep man.
05:49 He is not just a violent man.
05:51 He is a brilliant musician, he is a brilliant poet, a good dancer.
05:57 He is exceptionally well read.
05:59 You know he is a very good administrator, which makes him a very deep, complex man.
06:07 Which makes him fascinating to write about, but honestly also very troubling to write
06:11 about.
06:12 Like one of the things one noticed when I was writing even the violent scenes, the way
06:17 it came to me, that even his violence is kind of scholarly.
06:21 You know how does one explain that?
06:22 It's not just someone who takes a club and smashes someone's head in and that's it.
06:26 Like he will actually behead someone and then look closely at the gaping neck, how's the
06:32 blood spurting out, what are the veins.
06:34 It's like for him even that is a path to knowledge.
06:38 It's very disturbing, you know, in some ways.
06:42 And do you think in our popular culture, he has been reduced to a very sort of a mono
06:49 kind of colour?
06:52 Not just him, sadly our popular culture itself, we have lost so much of the depth and nuance
06:59 of our ancestors.
07:02 I lay the fault of this completely at our education system.
07:05 We teach very little about our ancient culture, our ancient texts, our traditional plays.
07:12 We teach very little.
07:14 And in an atmosphere of ignorance, then half-baked knowledge will prosper, which is sad.
07:24 And one can't blame students or count people for it because no one is teaching them.
07:30 The education system is not teaching them.
07:32 There is this feeling that our past was all great and we should go.
07:37 I'm not saying that.
07:38 No, we should go.
07:39 So we know that is what we should.
07:42 So there is a whole history in between which is, you know, it's seeming to be like sort
07:46 of wiped out.
07:47 I mean, which ancient are we talking about?
07:50 I mean, which period are you talking about?
07:52 Is there a period that you have in mind?
07:53 From ancient times till today.
07:56 So yes, there is a painful part of invasions as well and we should speak of it honestly
08:03 because it has nothing to do with people today.
08:07 I think one of the misfortunes of India is that our historians called the Turkic colonial
08:14 rule the Islamic rule.
08:16 Nobody calls the British colonial rule the Christian rule because everyone knows the
08:20 British colonial rule has nothing to do with Indian Christians.
08:23 But the Turkic colonial rule is called Islamic rule and in my mind this was a major mistake.
08:31 Islam didn't come to us through with the Turkic colonial people.
08:35 Islam came a lot earlier.
08:36 In fact, the second oldest mosque in the world is actually in India.
08:41 Most people don't know this.
08:44 And the Turkic colonial rulers, which is what the Delhi Sultans were, you read the list
08:48 of nobles, you'll find no Indian Muslims also in there.
08:50 They were all Uzbeks, basically all Turks and their administrators were all Persians.
08:55 But that's not the impression that's given to us in our history books.
09:01 And we have created a problem for ourselves with this.
09:06 So we should look at our invasions also honestly.
09:11 But we must realize that Indian Christianity and Indian Islam actually came to us a lot
09:16 earlier.
09:17 I find very few cultures which do this deliberately and consciously that keep denying everything
09:23 about our own past.
09:25 You know, poetry classes will have nothing on Mirza Ghalib.
09:31 How can you have a poetry class and not speak of Mirza Ghalib?
09:35 What is wrong with us?
09:38 How can you, why should Thiruvalluvar not be taught in schools in UP and Bihar?
09:44 How will we build a national consciousness?
09:46 Why should, you know, Bhasa was from the North, why should he not be taught in Kerala and
09:52 Tamil Nadu?
09:53 We are very happy to teach Westerners, but we don't teach Indians of different regions
09:59 to each other.
10:00 Why should the stories of Lachit Barfuka not be celebrated in Gujarat, Maharashtra?
10:05 Why should the stories of the Gurjar Pratiharas not be celebrated in the North East?
10:10 How will we build a national culture till we celebrate our own heroes, our own thinkers,
10:16 our own heroines and so much?
10:19 We just don't do it.
10:21 Only sometimes, you know, it can go to some fantastical sort of levels, you know, when
10:25 we start saying that, you know, there was plastic surgery in our ancient time or, you
10:30 know, test tube babies were born or, you know, we had missile technology.
10:34 So I mean, that is when I think the problematic part starts.
10:38 You know, test tube babies and missile technology is clearly a fantasy.
10:45 There is no credible evidence to back that.
10:48 Plastic surgery there is actually.
10:52 The first recorded rhinoplasty, which is the nose reconstruction surgery in the modern
10:57 era, was recorded in a British magazine by British soldiers who saw the procedure being
11:03 done on a soldier of the Maratha army.
11:07 The procedure that that surgeon followed was the exact same procedure that was spoken of
11:14 by Shushrut thousand years ago.
11:17 So that is actually credible.
11:19 Now, Satish, I know you are very well read, but my point is this, that it's not your fault.
11:23 The education system is not teaching these to you.
11:27 And then what happens and then what happens is many genuine achievements get merged with
11:32 fantasies.
11:33 That's what, you know.
11:34 Okay.
11:35 And the solution to both of them is knowledge.
11:36 Yeah.
11:37 I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't, what I meant was that, you know, as you just said, that this
11:41 half-baked kind of knowledge, you know, that when you start saying, you know, some, you
11:47 know, start claiming really sort of, you know, bizarre kind of things.
11:51 You know, rather than taking, you know, just getting lost in the achievements of our ancestors
11:57 and beating our chest about it, what I would like is we should take inspiration that relative
12:02 to the rest of the world, our ancestors had massive achievements.
12:05 They were really kick-ass.
12:07 But where are we relative today, relative to the rest of the world?
12:11 So what we should be doing is learning that knowledge, imbibing that pride and working
12:16 hard to make achievements today, which will make our ancestors proud.
12:20 That would be the best conversation to get into.
12:22 And the answer, honestly, is knowledge.
12:25 Fantasies and ignorance prosper in an atmosphere which doesn't have knowledge.
12:31 The answer is the light of knowledge.
12:33 And as you also said, in the prevailing sort of political atmosphere, you know, everything
12:38 kind of gets a bit lost in this extreme right and extreme left, you know, sort of arguments.
12:44 There is no middle core, which as you pointed out, is probably the largest, you know, majority
12:51 of our country.
12:53 But it just seems to be getting lost in these two fringes.
12:56 This is, you know, I never comment on politics, you know that.
12:59 And this is not my comment on politics, because politicians, it's their job to do what they
13:04 have to do to get votes.
13:06 And let's not, you know, India is a very difficult country.
13:09 So in fact, I have a lot of respect for our politicians across all political classes,
13:13 because India is a very difficult country.
13:15 And to make this run somehow is not an easy job.
13:18 So actually I have respect for them.
13:20 My thing is more on the public debate space.
13:23 The public debate space has sadly been captured by two groups of extremists, the left-wing
13:29 extremists who want to deride anything about our past, who don't want to talk of religion
13:33 or spirituality or our achievements at all, and the right-wing extremists who think we
13:38 are the only great people, everyone else is a bunch of monkeys.
13:41 That's not true either.
13:43 And perhaps the problem is, I genuinely believe that a vast majority of us Indians are in
13:50 the center.
13:51 But perhaps the problem is we don't speak loudly enough.
13:55 Perhaps most of us just get irritated by the debate that's happening and we are like,
13:59 "Yeah, I don't want to be a part of this."
14:01 You know, so I don't know what the solution is to that debate.
14:07 But I know that at least those of us who are in the center must speak more, must convey
14:13 our thoughts, but must always do it politely and calmly.
14:18 Let's not add to the nonsense that's going on in any case.
14:21 We must always be polite, always be calm, but always be deeply proud and deeply liberal.
14:28 We must be Indian, the way our ancestors would have wanted us to.
14:32 You know, Amish, there is also this belief, or some people in some quarters, let's say,
14:37 that going back to our past is somehow at variance with this liberal thought, which
14:44 is what is more equated with the Western thought.
14:47 How would you react to that?
14:49 I think there is a reason why liberalism is losing the argument and I think it's a little
14:54 sad because if there is a point in time when the world truly needs liberalism, it's today.
15:00 But often the biggest enemies of liberalism are the liberals themselves.
15:04 One is of course through hypocrisy, but the other is that they don't truly understand
15:08 the land that they are in.
15:09 You know, if you want to have an impact on a land, you have to speak in an idiom and
15:15 with a culture that resonates with that land, right?
15:18 I mean, 99.999% of us Indians, we do not resonate with the West.
15:24 We resonate with our soil, with our great land.
15:28 So you have to use arguments which connect here, right?
15:31 And fortunately we don't have to make things up.
15:33 You know, our ancestors were genuinely liberal.
15:35 You only have to read our ancient texts to know that.
15:39 I have said this often enough that sadly modern Indian liberals, at least the elite liberals
15:44 don't realize our ancient cultures are actually their biggest ally.
15:48 But they haven't read many of the ancient texts.
15:50 They read largely Western texts.
15:51 So therefore they don't know this.
15:52 You know, the various versions, the ancient versions of the Ramayana, Mahabharata, the
15:58 plays of Kalidasa, Bhasa, Shudraka, you know, it will have such a huge impact, positive
16:06 impact and I am not saying this just to Hindu thing, the Buddhist interpretations, the Jain
16:10 interpretations, the Sikh interpretations, the Indian Islamic interpretations.
16:14 Only an Indian Muslim could have said, "Ya toh masjid mein sharab peene de sakhi, ya
16:17 aisi jagah bata jahan khuda na ho."
16:19 Going ahead, I know you leave clues in your books and your ardent fans sort of know what
16:24 your next book is going to be, etc.
16:26 But I was just curious, would you after this, say, after a little while, would you also
16:31 touch upon say the Mahabharata?
16:32 Yeah, yeah.
16:33 So I have a story idea in mind for the Mahabharata.
16:35 I also have a story idea in mind for Lord Dhamma, Lord Rudra, Lady Mohini, the rise
16:41 of the Asuras, you know, various story ideas in mind and if Lord Shiva allows it, hopefully
16:49 I will write all of them.
16:51 Thank you very much Amish.
16:52 Thank you.
16:53 It's a pleasure to have you in BiblioFan.
16:54 Thank you very much.
16:55 Thank you.
16:55 [Music]