Former Union home and finance minister P. Chidambaram speaks to Outlook on Pulwama terror attack, Kashmir, the grand opposition alliance, Rafale deal and cow vigilantes.
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00:00 This surgical strike is a bit of an overstatement. This is cross-border action. I don't think
00:08 lessons are taught by this exaggerated surgical strike.
00:12 Hello and welcome to Bibliophile, the place to come for books, authors, the publishing news, anything to do with the literary world.
00:26 Today we have this very special book, Undaunted, written by Mr. P. Chidambaram,
00:30 senior Congress leader and veteran politician who has been the Home Minister, Finance Minister as everybody knows.
00:35 You know, this government came to power on the promise of good governance. You know, that was one of their main promises.
00:41 Surprisingly, in the book you spent the longest, at least the article that you have selected, is about actually bad governance.
00:48 Actually, in a light-hearted vein, they promised minimum government, maximum governance.
00:56 I think they have fulfilled the first half of the promise. It's minimum government. Only the PMO is the government today.
01:04 You can't go below that minimum. Everybody else is irrelevant. Every institution is irrelevant.
01:13 And as a result, they make grave mistakes. Demonetization is a grave mistake.
01:20 The rollout of the GST was completely flawed and it destroyed, between them, demonetization and the flawed GST,
01:30 destroyed the small and medium enterprises. Micro enterprises are practically dead now.
01:38 And then they promised jobs. Where are the jobs? They promised 15 lakhs in every bank account. Where is that money?
01:47 They promised to bring back the black money. Where have they brought it out?
01:52 They promised fair prices for farmers. But the farmers' distress has been most acute in the last four and a half years.
02:00 Overall, every front there is deterioration. Kashmir, there is deterioration. In education, there is deterioration.
02:12 You saw the ASER report. Healthcare, there is deterioration. But I think they started with great opportunity.
02:23 I am afraid they have wasted the opportunity. -You pointed out Kashmir and as we know, you know, there has been this terror attack recently in Pulwama.
02:31 How would, how should India react really? I mean, if, you know, how would you have handled it, if you were the Home Minister?
02:39 You see, it's widely accepted now. There was remarkable improvement in Kashmir since say 2010.
02:47 Going into 2015, after Mr. Modi came to power. The approach then was firm approach on the border, but a soft approach in the hinterland.
03:02 I think that is the correct approach. 2015, for whatever reason, they adopted a muscular militaristic approach.
03:16 And they divided Jammu and the valley. Today, Jammu and the valley are so far apart, I shudder to think what will happen in the future.
03:31 Be that as it may. I condemn the Pulwama incident. 44 lives are precious lives.
03:39 Young men in the prime of their age, leaving small families, young families, young children, young wives.
03:48 But the alleged perpetrator is an Indian, a Kashmiri. He is not a Pakistani.
03:58 He claims to have been influenced or indoctrinated by the Jaish-e-Mohammed. Maybe that's true.
04:06 But if young men are pushed into the arms of militants or militant organizations,
04:16 whatever we do on the border, whatever we do to contain Pakistan, whatever we do to stop infiltration,
04:24 whatever we do in terms of cross-border action, is not going to yield any results.
04:31 We have to win the hearts and minds of the people of the Kashmir valley.
04:36 There, this government continued the earlier policy and did well for about a year. And I was very happy.
04:44 But I am afraid the U-turn that they did and going back to a militaristic muscular policy is, I think, a grave mistake.
04:57 Sir, every time an incident like this happens, as you are saying, the clamor for this to be even more muscular,
05:03 you know, to even more strong, seems to be only getting louder. And is, I mean, you know, is there is for the demand for a strong leader at this point.
05:12 So, at, you know, at this juncture, is it possible to really sort of cool down temperatures?
05:18 It is. Strong leaders are not going to cool down temperatures. In fact, what we need is wise leaders.
05:26 Compassionate leaders. I think we should be strong, a strong military presence, strong military action on the border.
05:38 Stop infiltration, stop terrorism on the border, prevent militants from coming into India.
05:48 That I think should be absolutely firm, which is why we built the fence in many parts.
05:54 But within the valley, you have to win the hearts and minds of people.
05:59 The kind of reaction in rest of the country is only alienating the Kashmir people.
06:04 If you take action against or if you retaliate against Kashmir students in the rest of India,
06:11 what kind of a message does it send to the people in the Kashmir valley? Well, Indians don't want us.
06:17 I think that's wrong. I think we should go back to winning the hearts and minds of the people in the Kashmir valley.
06:25 At the same time, we must take a very strong position on the border.
06:31 So, even something like, say, a surgical strike at the border or beyond, you are okay with that? I mean, that is acceptable.
06:38 A surgical strike is a bit of an overstatement. This is cross-border action. Such cross-border action was taken in Mr. Bajpai's time in 2002.
06:50 It was taken in the UPA period more than once. But this government tends to exaggerate its actions.
06:58 It said surgical strike, the first ever of its kind. We have taught Pakistan a lesson.
07:03 Have we taught Pakistan a lesson? Pathankot, Oori and now Pulwama.
07:09 I don't think lessons are taught by this exaggerated surgical strike. As I said, we must have a two-pronged approach.
07:19 One, a firm, strong military approach to Pakistan and on the border.
07:27 The other, a more humane, kind, conciliatory, dialogue-based approach in the valley.
07:37 The attack also comes very close to the general elections which are around the corner. How do you think it might impact the elections?
07:45 Well, I hope it will have no impact on the elections because the country is united in condemning the Pulwama attack.
07:51 There are no divisions among the political parties. The Congress President has clearly said that the nation stands united to condemn the Pulwama attack.
08:01 So I don't think anyone can or anyone should try to gain an electoral advantage from what is happening today.
08:10 But the BJP will try. But our response will be, your approach to the Kashmir problem is part of the problem.
08:21 It's not finding a solution. -Sir, and talking of elections, you know, there is this talk of this grand alliance of
08:28 oppositions coming together, various, it's a kind of a motley group of various parties.
08:33 I object to the word motley. -Okay, let's say varied groups of regional parties. You know, is there anything, is there a sort of a holding idea?
08:43 Is there any glue which, you know, ideological or economic, what is it that will hold them together? -There is.
08:51 Each regional party is a fact of life. Don't underestimate regional parties. -Sure. -Nor should we belittle the contribution of regional parties.
09:02 Have not regional parties like the DNK, ADNK contributed to this country? -You know, talking of alliances that Congress has formed in various
09:13 areas, this is what I was actually trying to ask. Like, for instance, in Kerala, you are against, you will be fighting the left.
09:19 Whereas in West Bengal, you might be with them. I mean, you know, so, these kind of, is there a little confusion that… -There is none.
09:26 There is none. In fact, Mamata Banerjee has the correct formulation. We may fight each other at the state level.
09:34 But we are united at the national level. I don't know what the shape of an alliance will be in Bengal. I don't think the last word has been said.
09:43 What we are trying to do is fight state elections in the context in which we find that state. But as far as the national election is concerned,
09:53 I think practically all the parties except the Akali Dal and the Shiv Srinath are united that we should fight the BJP.
10:01 And you would have a minimum common program, I mean, you would have a common manifesto? -Well, I don't know. I am only in charge of the Congress
10:08 party's manifesto. My group and I are working on the manifesto.
10:12 Whether the manifestos of different parties will be shared and we will evolve a common minimum program, I don't know.
10:21 But perhaps that's the thinking. -I see. You know, the other question I had was about the opposition in general and the Congress in particular.
10:29 Have you been able to pinpoint corruption in this Rafale deal? -Well, corruption is a inference, is a deduction.
10:40 The facts are there. The facts point in one direction. Now, why are those facts there if it was not an opaque deal, if it was not a deal shrouded in mystery?
10:57 Why are these facts coming out one by one? The fact is that the Prime Minister's office called the shots.
11:06 The fact is that the INT, Indian Negotiating Team was virtually overruled on crucial matters.
11:15 Waivers were galore. Sovereign guarantee, bank guarantee, escrow account were all waived.
11:22 The three anti-corruption clauses were dropped. There is no integrity pact.
11:28 And they ditched HAL for no reason whatsoever. When there was a work share agreement between HAL and DASAW,
11:36 you ditch HAL at the last moment and choose an offset partner in a private sector company.
11:44 Now, the combination of these facts points in one direction. Now, whether there was actual passage of money, I can't say.
11:54 I mean, I don't say anything on which I don't have facts. But the circumstances raise grave doubts.
12:03 And only a joint parliamentary committee looking into the matter can set at rest these doubts.
12:10 But the question is to make it an election issue, you know, to really sort of take it down to the common man,
12:16 you know, like a figure like this 1.73 lakh crore in the coal scam, you know, that caught people's imagination.
12:23 That 1.74 lakhs crore, there is no basis at all. There is no basis for that number.
12:31 Who has been prosecuted for 1.74 lakh crore? So I think these are election exaggerations.
12:39 What I am saying is a fact. India is buying 36 aircraft for 60,000 crore.
12:48 I have shown my calculation that Dassault is making a windfall. Earlier, the 60,000 crore and the 60,000 crore is the price,
13:00 the 1.3 billion euro would have been amortized over 126 aircraft. Now, it's being amortized over 36 aircraft.
13:08 And the price per aircraft has indeed gone up. Dassault is making a windfall.
13:14 Now, what I ask myself is, what I ask you and others is, if Dassault is being given this benefit,
13:21 a windfall in amortization, a windfall in price, a windfall in waiver of several clauses,
13:31 a windfall in removal of anti-corruption clauses, a windfall in the choice of the offset partner.
13:38 If all this gain is going to Dassault, you think that these gains will be given to Dassault for no return at all?
13:48 Why should the government of India give all these benefits to Dassault? Forget anyone in India.
13:55 Suddenly, why this great love for Dassault? So obviously, Dassault is being given all this.
14:03 There must be some reason. We don't know the reason yet. But it raises the flag of suspicion.
14:11 Sir, moving on, you know, in fact, the subhead of the book is saving the idea of India.
14:16 And as I have noticed, there is a lot on the social side that you've written, apart from, you know, governance and economy.
14:22 What is this idea of India you think is under threat?
14:27 See, if you reflect, you will be able to articulate the idea of India.
14:33 But even if you are not able to articulate the idea of India, you know in your heart what this India is.
14:40 This is a multicultural society. This is the strength of India. This is the pride of India.
14:48 We are multicultural. We are home to many religions, many languages, many communities, many people following different traditions,
14:59 different practices, different food habits, etc. In the last five years, this trend has gained strength.
15:10 So much so that we have vigilante groups, lynch mobs, which are ruling the roost.
15:18 There is a culture of impunity in India. People think they can get away with it.
15:24 Anti-Romeo squads, bouncing upon inter-caste couples, inter-faith couples,
15:30 bouncing upon a young boy and a young girl, taking a walk in the park or going to a movie,
15:37 telling people you can't eat this, telling people you can't wear these clothes.
15:43 This culture of impunity is what is worrying me. If the law were to prevent an excess like this,
15:51 that's a different matter. But the law seems to be helpless while this growing impunity is threatening to envelop the whole country.
16:00 Sir, aren't other parties also a bit guilty of this? Like, for instance, you mentioned lynching in the cow suspect, people suspecting of cow slaughter.
16:10 You know, when Congress comes to power, the first thing in Rajasthan, say, in Madhya Pradesh, you know, the talk is of opening more Gau Shalas.
16:17 In Madhya Pradesh, in fact, I think the National Security Act was slapped on three people for on suspicion of, you know, cow slaughter.
16:24 So, aren't, isn't the Congress also in some ways falling into this trap? -They are mixing up two things.
16:33 Lynching a person for alleged cow smuggling is one thing. Opening Gau Shalas is another thing.
16:41 If you cannot slaughter cows, the cows will roam around the countryside, eating all the crops and all the plants.
16:50 Therefore, the cows either have to be slaughtered, but if you are not willing to slaughter the cow, which has stopped yielding milk,
16:58 you have to protect it somewhere and feed it. So, opening Gau Shalas is not a crime. -But slapping a… -I am coming to that.
17:06 So, then other issue is NSA. Now, I was the first to say NSA, slapping NSA was a mistake.
17:14 Now, I have gathered more facts. Now, apparently, it is at the district level, the district level officers took this action.
17:24 And the government has now moved in Madhya Pradesh to centralize the power in the Home Secretary.
17:31 So, these cases cannot be slapped on individuals without the Home Secretary's OK.
17:38 And now the Home Secretary is reviewing these two cases, whether the circumstances under which the SP,
17:46 the district level officer slapped NSA on alleged cow smugglers was right or wrong, is now being reviewed by the Home Secretary.
17:54 And I am pretty confident that they will lift the NSA. Once NSA has been slapped, you have to now withdraw it in a manner known to law.
18:03 But I think if the powers are now vested in the Home Secretary, it's very unlikely that future cases will arise.
18:11 On the economy, you know, what exactly is it? Are we growing at 7.2%? -We are not. And I will tell you why.
18:18 You see, 7% is as I said, a deduction from facts. It is not a fact. It is not written anywhere, you are growing at 7%.
18:30 7% is a calculation you make. But there are facts. There are no jobs as a fact.
18:39 Credit growth to micro and small industries is negative, is a fact.
18:45 Foreign portfolio investors are pulling out money is a fact.
18:50 Investments are at a historic low is a fact. Unemployment is at a 45 year high at 6.1% is a fact.
19:04 If these facts are there, no investment, no credit growth, no jobs, and acute distress in the farm sector,
19:17 these are facts. I want to ask you, how can there be a 7% growth?
19:23 Exports are flat. Exports have not crossed the $315 billion that we achieved in 2013-14.
19:32 Now these are facts and all the facts are pointing in one direction.
19:38 How can growth alone be pointing in another direction?
19:42 So you are mixing up facts and 7%. 7% is not a fact. 7% is a deduction.
19:49 Sir, you think that the figure is sort of manipulated?
19:52 Absolutely. I think the figure is fudged. I am not saying this. Several other people have said it.
19:58 Ruchi Sharma has said, we are becoming the laughing stock of the world. Nobody believes our data anymore.
20:04 Why is the Niti Aayog interfering with CSO data? Why is the Niti Aayog sitting over NSSO data?
20:13 The CSO and NSSO are independent bodies under the National Statistics Commission.
20:19 But because of Niti Aayog's interference, the two last members of the National Statistics Commission have resigned.
20:26 You don't have a National Statistics Commission today. What will the world think?
20:30 A country does not have even a Statistics Commission. And you want to believe your numbers?
20:35 I don't believe these numbers. I am sorry. -Sir, in the coming elections, do you think more than, you know,
20:40 Pulwama or Gaurakshaks or even Ram Mandir for that matter, it is these that you just listed, you know,
20:45 do you think that would play a major role? -Economy is going to play the major role.
20:51 Number one will be jobs. Number two will be the destruction of the economy by demonetization and the flawed GST.
21:00 Number three will be, or you can arrange it in whatever manner, one of the three will be acute farmer distress.
21:07 Acute. Prices have crashed. You don't have prices for paddy, you don't have prices for onions, you don't have prices for chilli.
21:14 You and I are consumers. We are happy. But what about the producer?
21:18 The producer is losing money. He is producing and you and I are happy. I mean, how can this situation continue?
21:26 I think the economy will be number one issue and the people will eventually vote for someone who knows to manage the economy.
21:34 I charge this government with complete incompetence in managing the economy. -If, I know you are not into crystal gazing,
21:41 but how do you think the elections are going to pan out? What, what, what may be like? -Every party goes into an election with the hope it will win it.
21:49 The Congress and the BJP are in direct contest in about seven or eight states. We were at our nadir last time. We can only go up.
22:00 The BJP is bound to lose seats and the seats that the BJP loses, the Congress will gain because we are in direct contest.
22:07 In the other states where the alliance is challenging the BJP, I think some of these alliances will do very well.
22:14 Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Bengal, Uttar Pradesh, yes, alliance will do well. BSP, SP will do well. Bihar, the alliances will do very well.
22:27 And I think the BJP will lose some seats there and the alliances will gain.
22:34 In the states where we are in a direct contest, the BJP will lose and the Congress will gain.
22:39 So, I, final number how it will play out, I can't say. It is in the hands of the people.
22:45 But I don't think even the BJP hopes to get back its 282. -Thank you very much, Minister Dhanbaram for talking to people here. -Thank you.
22:54 [Music]