Sunderland's summer transfer window assessed after busy deadline day
Category
🥇
SportsTranscript
00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 [MUSIC]
00:20 Hello, Sunland fans, and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by
00:39 Sunland Echo. My name's James Copley. I'll be hosting today, and I'm joined by my Echo
00:43 colleagues, Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith. How are we both doing, gentlemen?
00:47 Yeah, good.
00:49 Always good after a 5-0, that's for sure.
00:50 Yes, well...
00:52 Yeah, in a national break. Well, we'll come on at the 5-0, but this pod in the main is going to be
00:58 looking at Sunland's summer transfer window and a pretty chaotic deadline there. I make that 11
01:03 incomings over the summer, nine outgoings and six contract signs. So, very busy, Phil. What have you
01:10 made of everything? And then we'll move on to deadline day after that. But it's been an interesting
01:14 window, and it feels like Sunland have set the stall out again in terms of redoubling the identity
01:21 of what they're trying to do.
01:22 Yeah, really quite an interesting window, and then it was very much in two phases, wasn't it,
01:29 in terms of we saw Sunland be really aggressive early on in the market in terms of making an
01:36 initial wave of signings. At that point, they were way ahead of any other championship club in
01:41 terms of the level and scale of business they'd done. And then, to be fair, as Christian Speightman
01:47 warned what happened on the fixtures release day, it slowed down considerably while they sort of
01:52 waited for the other dominoes to fall into place. And then we also... that meant we moved into a
01:56 very tense phase while we were waiting for those strikers, basically, the next wave of strikers
02:02 that we all knew Sunland needed. And that obviously made for a pretty fraught end to the window.
02:06 And then deadline day was kind of that in a microcosm, really, where we went through a lot
02:10 of emotions. I think, broadly speaking, the interesting thing about the summer window,
02:15 and I think the story of the summer window, is that there was almost two things going on. We
02:19 saw Sunland invest in putting more talent into the club, as you say, kind of doubling down on what
02:24 they were doing. But at the same time, there was obviously this huge challenge to replicate the
02:30 strength of the team last season. And we all knew that was going to be a huge challenge because it
02:35 was highly unlikely that Ahmad was coming back. I know there were some talks about him potentially
02:39 coming back, even though he had a knee injury, but I think we all knew he wasn't going to be
02:42 coming back to start straight away. And I think we all kind of sensed there was a chance Stuart
02:46 might go at some point. And it was obviously the challenge was replacing those two huge parts of
02:52 the team, even though Stuart was injured for a lot of last season. So that was always the challenge.
02:56 And we probably still don't, at this stage, have an answer as to how successful that part has been.
03:00 It depends how Mason Burstow fares. It depends how quick Naziru Sin settles when he arrives in the
03:06 UK. So a strange window in that a very exciting one, so much talent put into the team. We can
03:11 already see how much promise Job's got. It's kind of unbelievable that Sunland have recruited him.
03:16 And yet we still have these, probably these little question marks, these little uncertainties
03:22 about whether the team can replicate what it did last year. The signs on Saturday were obviously
03:26 very encouraging. Yeah, just on the outgoing transfer deals, Joe, I'll just list them for
03:35 the sake of accuracy. But we've got Joe Anderson on the season-long loan, Alex Bass on the season-long
03:40 loan, Elliot Embleton deadline day departure on loan to Derby, Isaac Lahaji went to Qatar,
03:45 Lyndon Gooch off to Stoke City to reunite with Alex Neil, ended his 17-year stay at
03:51 Sunland, Carl Winchester left, as did Bailey Wright, so did Leon Diakou, Danny Bath was a
03:56 deadline day departure to Norwich City. But the headline departure was of course Ross Stewart.
04:02 We've talked a lot in the past about Sunland probably will sell a player at some point for
04:10 big money and this time it's happened. As Phil mentions, there's four strikers at the club at
04:15 the moment, but we don't yet know if any are as good as Ross Stewart and how that dynamic will
04:20 work. But coming into the last year of his contract, Joe, did you think that Sunland did well
04:25 to get the money that they did for Ross Stewart coming off the injury as well? I think in the end,
04:29 yes. I think it's obviously a shame to see him go because he was a great player for Sunland
04:34 that League One season. He played every game, didn't he, as they got promoted and then last
04:38 season in the Championship although he only played I think 13 League games, he scored 10 goals and
04:43 proved he was a real handful at that level and he was an excellent player at that level. He was
04:47 that poacher, he was that focal point, he could run into the channels, he was almost like a complete
04:52 ball which are very difficult to find. So it was a shame to see him go. But I think the thing is
04:57 Sunland have been playing without him since January, so they've almost adapted to not playing
05:02 with him. They played without him for most of last season and still reached the playoffs,
05:08 so they've almost found a way of playing without someone like Stewart. Obviously it's better to
05:13 bring in two strikers like Versto and Roos in and they're still a bit of an unknown, aren't they?
05:17 How are they going to adapt into the team? But you'd rather have one of them who are a natural
05:21 striker up front than playing Joe Bellingham up there who has done well but it doesn't seem to be
05:26 his natural position. So it was a shame to see Ross Stewart go but I think given the circumstances,
05:31 given the kind of ongoing saga with his contract, he's been in talks for over a year now about
05:36 signing a new long-term contract and hasn't signed anything and it seemed kind of inevitable that it
05:42 was going to come to an end. And when Southampton came in with that offer, Sunland, it felt like
05:47 they kind of had to take it. Also with the doubt with his injury as well, he's still kind of at
05:51 the earliest, probably going to be back end of September, that's probably the earliest. So
05:55 there was still a lot of unknowns around Stewart, so as I say it's a shame to see him go but
06:00 I think Sunland came out of it all things considered in a decent position.
06:03 And Philly, it does really help, doesn't it, to digest Ross Stewart leaving to Southampton
06:12 when you turn up the very next day and beat Southampton 5-0 at the Stadium of Light. Had
06:15 Sundar lost that game heavily, deadlines in the transfer window starts to feel a little different
06:20 in the immediacy of that potential result. Yeah, I think so and the reality is because
06:25 we've got a bit of experience, we know that's going to sort of happen through the season.
06:31 So there'll be days where someone's young side looks brilliant, wins against good sides and we
06:35 sort of think wow this is amazing, why doesn't everyone just do this? And there'll be days when
06:40 they have a couple of frustrating results or they perform poorly and we'll be frustrated that there
06:44 isn't a Lyndon Gooch there to bring off the bench for that bit of bite and intensity and that there
06:49 isn't a Ross Stewart there to turn that sort of 1-1 into a scrappy 2-1 win or however you want
06:54 to sort of see it. So I think that we are going to go through waves of that through the season.
06:59 I think we had that a bit last year and I think that's just understandable. I think the deadline
07:04 day ultimately was fairly successful because obviously late on Thursday night when it became
07:09 clear that Stewart was going, there were obviously some fears over Patrick Roberts at that point
07:14 and we should say that suddenly rejected Southampton's bid pretty resolutely from their
07:19 perspective. But at that point there was obvious concern about the depth. I don't think there's
07:26 any doubt whatsoever in anybody's mind that Tony Mowbray, if everyone's fit, can put out an 11 that
07:32 is going to be hugely competitive at this level even if it doesn't have an orthodox striker in.
07:36 I think we were all just looking at it going that the depth is potentially a concern.
07:42 By the end of deadline day, as we say, we don't know about Birstow and Reeson, how they're going
07:48 to settle in, but Reeson has played a lot of football. Birstow turned down the opportunity
07:52 to go away to see Milan to come here so that's kind of exciting. And then little things like
07:57 Robert Steyn, Alex Pritchard, I know probably not by the club's design but the fact that he didn't go
08:03 gives Mowbray such a brilliant option really to deploy from the bench or start certain games.
08:08 And all of a sudden you can just see, I think the main concerns in terms of the lack of attack
08:14 variety and the lack of experience in the squad, I think those were the things we were all most
08:18 worried about going into deadline day. And the end result was pretty much okay, wasn't it? I think if
08:23 you'd asked people on Thursday at eight o'clock at night when there was a lot of concern, if they'd
08:28 been relatively satisfied with where we got to, I think they would have taken it. It's not to say
08:33 that people don't have concerns about the fact that Stewart's going to a rival who clearly is
08:39 paying an awful lot more than Sunderland can at this stage. But I think the main concerns we had
08:46 in going into deadline day were addressed to an extent, I think. And obviously, as you say,
08:53 you had a 5-0 win. It actually reminded me a little bit, I wasn't there of course at the time,
08:58 but reading what you guys were saying at the time, a little bit like the Norwich game after Alex Neal
09:03 left. I know Sunderland lost that game 1-0 but I think they played really well, didn't they? And
09:06 probably should have got something out of it. And there was that sense of, you know what, actually
09:10 there are some good things here and life will go on a bit. And then obviously a few days later,
09:15 they went and hammered Rotherham. And that was what the vibe felt a bit like on Saturday. Okay,
09:20 we're disappointed we've lost Stewart. But there is a lot here to be enthusiastic about.
09:26 And I do feel quite excited now about the rest of the season. That's not to say I think Sunderland
09:31 are going to storm into the top six. But I do broadly think the parts are in place
09:37 to have a good season. And the performances have been very good across the five games, really.
09:43 So yeah, I do still think it's exciting times, even if I think we all have some frustrations
09:49 at times with kind of the model and sort of the rigidness of the budget.
09:54 Deadline day was really interesting, Joe, for a number of reasons. One, it was
09:59 extremely busy. I don't think I've ever known a deadline day like it for Sunderland. It was
10:04 absolutely crazy. As Phil touched upon there, though, there was a little period of time where
10:08 things weren't looking too good. There was reports of interest in Dan Neal. Obviously,
10:13 we know that that didn't materialise into a bid. There was the Roberts story. You know,
10:17 Danny Barthgoan was a concern. Gooch was going, Embeldon was going, and obviously the Stewart
10:21 story as well. Patrick Roberts thrown into that. At one point, it was tough going, wasn't it,
10:31 with the reports coming out. Obviously, deadline day is very reactionary. Things are changing all
10:35 of the time. But at one point, I know me, myself, I was quite concerned. And it did work out well in
10:41 the end, but it felt like squeaky bum time. I'm sure the club felt entirely differently, and I'm
10:46 sure they had irons in the fire. They obviously had a lot more information about the situation
10:50 than we did, but it was interesting to see how it progressed, wasn't it? Yeah, there was definitely
10:55 concern, wasn't there, Thursday night when all these reports were flying about and bids were
10:59 coming in for some of Sunderland's key players. But I think keeping players like Roberts and
11:05 Ekhoir as well, who came in for, they were more important because I think Sunderland had prepared
11:11 for Stewart leaving all summer. That's kind of been rumbling on for a while now, and they had
11:16 their other targets. They managed to bring in two other strikers. So they had prepared for that
11:20 scenario. Whereas I think with Roberts and Ekhoir, they are two key players, those two in particular,
11:26 where Sunderland still lack a bit of depth in those areas, particularly out wide.
11:31 Roberts and Clark are good first choice options, but potentially behind them, Sunderland are a bit
11:35 light of options on the wing, although Abdoula Baratho played well on Saturday against South
11:40 Hampton. And then in central midfield as well with Neal and Ekhoir, who were forming, I think,
11:44 an effective partnership. But behind those, with Corrie Evans still out, with Jay Matete still out
11:49 injured, I think there is a little bit of a lack of depth there as well. So they're kind of the two
11:54 areas that I think Sunderland are still a little bit light. But certainly from what was being
11:58 reported and what was going on on Thursday night, as we said before, I think they did come out of
12:03 it quite well on transfer deadline day. The Jack Clark stuff as well, it was a nightmare.
12:11 Lyndon Gooch Phil departs Sunderland for Stoke City. This one hit me right in the
12:17 feels to be honest with you. I watched him grow up at Sunderland, remember his debut,
12:21 and I think it was 2015 in the League Cup. I mean, what more can you say that hasn't already
12:28 been said about him? Just a brilliant professional, somebody who really, really got what it meant to
12:33 play for Sunderland here since he was 10 years old. So that marks 17 years. He scored the winning
12:39 goal at Wembley in the Papa John's Trophy final, which ended Sunderland's Wembley hoodoo, which
12:44 dated back to 1973. Obviously, there wasn't fans in attendance, you know, from making his debut
12:50 against Pep Guardiola. When I was, so it's still... When you were, so that's all right. Yeah,
12:54 that's all right. Making his debut against Pep Guardiola's Manchester City, double relegation,
13:00 losing playoff finals, losing playoff semifinals, winning playoff finals. An incredible career at
13:07 Sunderland, I think we'd all agree. An incredible servant and a really, really nice, down-to-earth
13:11 guy as well. Yeah, I think that, you know, we're talking a little bit here about deadline day and
13:18 the intensity of that and the intensity of the emotions around it. And I think, you know,
13:22 Sunderland is a real rollercoaster. I think it has bigger highs and lower lows than a lot of clubs.
13:28 There are clubs obviously like that as well around the pyramid, but Sunderland's definitely one of
13:33 them. And I think that Guc for me kind of rode that, had to ride that rollercoaster more than
13:39 anybody else. I think that homegrown players, and I know there's a slight quirk with Linden,
13:44 who has a sort of a Californian/Mackham accent, which was always one of his best qualities.
13:48 But I think those homegrown players feel that intensity even more, I think. Because,
13:56 you know, if you're a Sunderland player, the intensity is incredible, the pressure is incredible,
14:02 but, you know, you kind of can go home and detach from it. And I feel like homegrown players can't
14:07 really do that because they're all so invested in the city, friends, family, their entire lives are
14:12 tied up in it. And so I think a player like Guc really does have to live that rollercoaster
14:18 every minute of every day. And I think he kind of summed up Sunderland's journey, really.
14:23 You know, even in that period in League One, the incredible highs and lows he went through,
14:30 times when fans were singing his name, times when occasionally they very definitely weren't
14:35 singing his name, like you say, losing playoff finals, dropping out of the team,
14:39 having to prove himself to various head coaches, incredibly close to leaving the club just a few
14:44 months before that playoff final win against Wiccambe, very, very close, felt like it had
14:47 come to the end of the road. You know, Linden was one of those players who, no matter what,
14:52 always found his way back into the team and always found a way to contribute. And I think by his own
14:57 admission, sometimes his passion probably affected his performance because he wanted it so much.
15:01 But you know, there's so much respect for Linden for the way he kind of rode that rollercoaster
15:07 for all those years and always found a way back into the team, always found a way to contribute,
15:11 even in sometimes some pretty trying circumstances. And I think, you know, he leaves a pretty
15:16 incredible legacy, really, not just in terms of what he's achieved, but all those
15:21 moments that everyone can think of. So the Papa John's goal.
15:24 - Scored some great goals for some, Linden.
15:27 - That goal at MK Don's away, which I know for the away fans who were there that day,
15:31 in a 1-0 win, was just an incredible moment because there were so many fans there.
15:35 - Even the trip against Sheffield United last season was a great finish.
15:39 - So many sort of scrapbook moments. So it'll be a huge miss, I mean, for the entire club,
15:46 I think, even for staff around the club, Linden will be a huge miss. I know it'll be a big miss
15:51 for fans. Yeah, I can understand why he's gone. I do think it's a real shame. And like I say,
16:02 just so much respect for the way that he always sort of bounced back and for the way he was able
16:08 to come through, you know, what was at times incredibly trying circumstances.
16:13 - Yeah, what sticks in my mind actually is one of the most horrendous games I've ever
16:19 been at really, one of the most Sunderland games I've ever been at, just for pure levels of
16:22 banter. But it was when Chris Maguire's Lincoln City came back to the stadium of light,
16:27 Chris Maguire got a hat-trick celebrated in Lee Johnson's face. Lee Johnson got sent off. I think
16:34 Gooch was deployed as a right-back in a back four that day and was pretty poor, probably by his own
16:41 admission. I think Stewart got a penalty to make it 2-1 perhaps. And then Sunderland were really
16:47 pushing. Lyndon Gooch loses the ball. Lincoln go up and score a third. And I was in the stand that
16:52 night. I think it was in the East stand, the side that Lyndon Gooch was on. And he was getting so
16:58 much stick, it was unbelievable. I actually thought then, Joe, that that could have been the end of
17:01 the road for him. I just remember sitting there thinking, how on earth does he bounce back from
17:04 that? Football fans we know can be unforgiving. Some of the abuse he received that day and that
17:09 night was extremely borderline for me, especially for a homegrown player. But then a few, you know,
17:16 a few short months later under Alex Neil, we were in the mix zone with him at Wembley and, you know,
17:21 there was tears etched on his face and real emotion. You could see how much it meant to him.
17:25 Well, he said in the club interview as well, the need that he did kind of his goodbye, that
17:30 sometimes it probably meant too much to him and he probably tried too hard. And maybe that affected
17:35 his performances. And you could tell that he was genuinely a player that wore his heart on his
17:39 sleeve and he was gutted if the team lost. And yeah, you mentioned that kind of moment at Wembley
17:47 where it clearly meant a lot to him and his versatility in the team. I think he even said
17:52 that that's probably the reason why he kind of had such a long career at Sunderland, because he was
17:56 able to play right back on the wing, left back. Even at the end of last season, he was playing as
18:02 like a left sided centre back in the back three and you could kind of move him around and you'd
18:06 know that he'd give his all for the team. So yeah, it's a shame to see him go. Also a shame to see
18:12 Danny Bart go as well, another popular player with the fans, another popular player in the
18:17 dressing room. And we have said before, haven't we, that Sunderland have maybe got to be a bit
18:21 careful with kind of moving on these more experienced players that are clearly big
18:26 characters in the dressing room. People like Bart, people like Gooch and then bringing players in
18:29 from abroad that perhaps maybe don't speak the language as well. You know, Gooch, Bart,
18:35 Onay and Pritchard, big players in the dressing room that helped Sunderland a lot last season.
18:40 Bailey Wright's another one that's moved on this summer. So they are difficult players to replace,
18:45 but clearly they weren't going to be playing week in, week out. So Sunderland felt that they could
18:50 move them on and in respect to them really to go and play more first team football. Clearly,
18:55 Gooch was not first choice right back anymore. Clearly, Danny Bart had fallen down the pecking
18:59 order as well after being player of the season last season. So Sunderland wanted to allow them
19:04 to go and play football and that's what they've done. So you could be seen as a gamble, but
19:09 that's kind of the policy that Sunderland have taken on and want to kind of maintain.
19:12 I want to touch on the deadline date incumbents again, just briefly. Phil, you know, my French
19:19 isn't the best historically on this podcast. How are we pronouncing the attack in midfielders name
19:26 in your opinion? You're muted.
19:31 Yeah, I was deliberately muted so I didn't embarrass myself. Yeah, no, I'm not 100% sure.
19:36 I think we need to find out the correct pronunciation. That's the job for all of us.
19:41 So nobody listening to the raw should take it as my Awiche.
19:45 I mean, we could call him a dill for the purposes of this podcast.
19:52 Yeah, we need to find that out. Yeah, I think that from what I can gather, he's a
20:01 maybe, I think he's probably primarily a number 10, I think, but obviously the competition for
20:08 places in that position is pretty strong. I would definitely expect to see him play out wide at
20:13 times. You know, in the way that Barr does, you know, he's an attacking midfielder who likes to
20:18 get the ball dribble past players, cut inside. I think we'll definitely see a lot of that of him.
20:23 I'm told he can also sort of play in centre midfield as a very attacking player, whether
20:30 we'll see Mowbray do that in the Championship, I'm not so sure. So we'll definitely see him
20:35 operate now wide at times through the middle at times. Pembele, I think, very exciting talent,
20:41 primarily a right back, I think, but can play both full-back positions.
20:46 I think he is someone who will probably take a little bit of time to see the best of him.
20:52 He only returned from an ACL injury earlier this year, I believe, and obviously hasn't had much of
20:56 a pre-season. So I think that's one where he is definitely sort of longer-term signing. I wouldn't
21:04 expect to see him in the starting line-up against QPR. So, yeah, I think they're a pair who are
21:12 very much, you know, if you think back to Michoud last year, really, actually, he hadn't had much
21:16 of a pre-season and it took him a few months, didn't it? And then towards the second half of
21:21 the season, we started to see him really make an impact. I think the idea is probably pretty
21:25 similar here. And from Sunderland's perspective, they've obviously given these guys four, five-year
21:30 contracts. So they're not being signed purely for the here and now. Obviously, there's hope
21:35 they'll make an impact this season. But, you know, these are long-term projects, both for player and
21:42 for club. Whereas there's an obvious difference with Emerson Berstow, who's here on a season-long
21:46 loan. And I would strongly expect him to be in contention for that QPR game. So, yeah,
21:52 Reeson, maybe somewhere in between. I think, obviously, there will be a period of adaptation.
21:57 He's coming to a new country, a new team, a new division.
22:01 Yeah, so there will be a period of adaptation for him. But at the same time, you know, he does
22:09 have a good level of top-level experience. I know that he is very much seen as someone who
22:13 they are hoping will help fill the void by Stewart pretty quickly. So, yeah, four interesting
22:19 signings. I think all very different ones in terms of when we'll see them and how quickly
22:24 we should expect them to be kind of regular starters.
22:27 Joe, just on Pembele, he's got, you know, brilliant pedigree. He's been capped for France's
22:34 under-16s, under-17s, 18s, 20s. And he's played at the Olympics, played a little bit for Paris Saint-Germain.
22:40 Been on loan at Bordeaux as well. Comes very highly rated. Obviously, Phil mentioned a little
22:46 bit of an injury. But potentially long-term, having him and Trahume if the Pembele transfer
22:51 does indeed work out, that looks really, really strong to me. Obviously, Trahume's shirt to
22:56 lose at the moment because he's been superb culminating in that assist at the weekend
23:02 against Southampton. But the strength and depth may be just starting to show through in a couple
23:06 of positions now.
23:07 Well, Pembele is basically the replacement for Gooch, isn't he? Coming in at right-back. So,
23:12 Trahume is, you'd think, still the first choice. And then Pembele is the one that's now going to
23:16 come in and potentially challenge him. It looks like he can play. He's quite an attacking
23:20 full-back by the sounds of it. He can play as a wing-back. He can play as a full-back as well.
23:24 So, it's going to probably take some time to adapt. New country, new league. As you say,
23:29 he's had that injury setback. He's still only 20 years old. But looks like an exciting player.
23:35 But there is going to be that kind of... If Trahume gets injured, for example, if Trahume
23:39 is unavailable, he's probably the guy that comes in. I suppose you could move O9 across and kind
23:44 of rejig the defence. But he is going to be a player that potentially could come in. He's
23:49 only, what, an injury away from coming into the first team. So, it'll be interesting to see how
23:53 he does. It's another exciting signing. One thing we have kind of found from kind of the last few
23:58 signs that some of them have made is they have got an eye for a player, whether that's from a
24:02 Premier League academy, whether that's from abroad. The record over the past kind of two years has
24:07 been pretty good. The players that they've brought in have got limited first team experience and
24:12 those players have been able to step up. People like Sirkin, people like Alisay, people like Hulme.
24:18 So, the record is pretty good. But we'll see how he does. And, yeah, it may take a bit of time for
24:23 him to adapt. Just quickly before we head to the Southampton game, Phil, another aspect that
24:30 Sunderland have been pleasing in during the summer has been contracts. They've been extremely
24:34 proactive in this area for a long time, but it's gone up a notch again. This summer, Hulme signed
24:40 a new deal, so he'll be here till 2027 with the option of another year. Luko Nain till 2026 with
24:46 the option for another year. Dan Ballard tied down to 27. Dennis Sirkin to 26. Chris Rigg,
24:54 obviously, was persuaded to sign that scholarship deal. And Tommy Watson, as well, has just signed
24:59 his first professional contract. If you cast your minds back, there was a glut of scholarship
25:05 signings of quite highly rated youngsters at Sunderland who just seem to be retaining players
25:11 a little bit better now, especially through the age groups. Obviously, there's always a caveat.
25:15 Toby Bell went to Chelsea and whatnot. You can't keep hold of everybody. But by and large, it's an
25:20 area in which Sunderland have seriously improved. Just thinking, the obvious comparison to make is
25:25 and it's been made on this podcast many times, but under the days of Donald and Metha, it was a very,
25:29 very different story. Yeah, I think that's just stability and strategy, isn't it? I think Sunderland,
25:35 not just under Donald and Metha, and I think under Ellis Short as well, I think it would be fair to
25:39 say, for a period of probably about 10 years, really, Sunderland were living from window to
25:45 window. It was get to the next window, address any emergencies, try and stay up, get to the next,
25:54 whereas obviously what we're seeing now is a much longer term view. And that also applies to
26:01 transfers, as we were just mentioning there with Joe about players like Pembele, the feeling in a
26:07 position of strength where you can sign players and give them a little bit of time. I think that
26:12 all comes back to having some genuine strategy and some genuine stability at the club. And I think the
26:18 other thing to say as well is, it is context when we discuss Stuart. So, we were all disappointed
26:24 when Stuart didn't sign a new deal and commit his long-term future at the club. My personal feeling
26:30 is there was probably a bit of an opportunity missed when Sunderland got out of League One.
26:33 Maybe if Sunderland had pushed harder or pushed the ball a little further, maybe they would have
26:39 got something done. Of course, we'll never know that. But the point I'm making is, it is an area
26:45 where Sunderland have improved dramatically in a relatively short period of time. And especially
26:51 these young players, they're managing to present them not just a place in the first team, that's
26:57 only one part of it, but a development programme as well, where these players genuinely feel as
27:02 if they're going to take the next step in their game. And that's a really important part of it,
27:06 something that wouldn't have happened at Sunderland six, seven years ago. Every single
27:10 first team and academy player has an individual development programme. They're specifically
27:15 signed to a coach to work with them one-on-one on that development programme. And that's why
27:20 we shouldn't gloss over the significance of Chris Riggs signing the scholarship deal when he 100%
27:25 could have got Newcastle Man United. The pathway to the first team is part of the reason the players
27:30 are doing that. But the other factor to it is that development programme. And it's something we need
27:37 to bear in mind as well when we have frustrating days in the season. You can't keep young players
27:41 and not play them. So when we have those dips, that is going to be a factor as well. So I think
27:46 you're right to flag it up. And it is definitely context when we talk about Stewart as well,
27:51 although they weren't able to do it in that particular scenario, it is something they've
27:55 been pretty proactive with generally. It feels unthinkable actually when you when you cast your
28:00 minds back to the Ella Short era, as you say, Phil, and the Donald and Methrin era. Sunderland
28:06 are now fielding in their first team. England's under-19s captain and then Chris Rigg has
28:11 captained England under-16s and then captained the under-17s last night, which is mad. I never
28:17 thought Sunderland would be that club. Zach Johnson captained England in the summer as well,
28:25 so we should mention that as well. Absolutely. It's really exciting. I think Joe and just on that
28:31 man Chris Rigg again, his name keeps popping up. He managed to score against Southampton in a 5-0
28:37 win off the bench with a header, which I possibly didn't see coming as his first league goal. He
28:42 becomes the Championship's second youngest ever goal scorer behind Jude Bellingham. He's already
28:50 the League Cup's youngest ever goal scorer, beating the likes of Wayne Rooney. Sunderland's
28:55 youngest ever goal scorer. He's clearly there on merit and hugely, hugely exciting. I think
29:02 the exciting thing as well with him is we still don't really know his best position either,
29:06 similar with Bellingham as well. As you said, you wouldn't probably expect his first goal to be
29:11 a late run into the box and a header because he's played in different positions. He's played as
29:15 one of the deeper midfielders in pre-season. He started playing as more of a number 10.
29:20 He's so young that he can mould his game, adapt his game into different positions,
29:26 similar to Bellingham as well. Clearly a lot of potential with both of those players and
29:30 clearly a very young side that is only going to get better on paper in theory because
29:36 their peak years should be ahead of them, a lot of these players. You've got Luka Nain at the back,
29:40 still only 28 and he's probably the experienced player in that side. He's just signed a new
29:46 three-year deal as well. Definitely a lot to be excited about. The players coming through the
29:51 academy, there's clearly a pathway there. That shows players are now putting their faith in
29:58 Sunderland. Think back to Dan Neal signing a new contract earlier this season. He clearly now
30:02 believes that Sunderland can reach the Premier League with Sunderland because he sees that
30:07 progression, that pathway. He's not the only one we've seen this summer. A lot of the younger
30:11 players have signed new deals and have shown faith in the club that they can keep going and
30:16 progress their career at Sunderland rather than having to go elsewhere. So, certainly a very
30:21 positive sign. I guess, Phil, Sunderland's 5-0 win against Southampton in the Championship,
30:27 it was confirmation of what we've been saying on the podcast in terms of whilst the results might
30:33 not have been there in the early part of the season, the eye test was actually still good,
30:38 the performance indicators, the markers and the stats were actually quite good. Sunderland just
30:41 maybe lacking a little bit of cutting edge, but everything clicked against Southampton. They
30:46 executed the game plan to perfection. They knew what they were doing to hit Southampton on the
30:51 counter-attack. They knew they were going to have to concede the possession, but they had a plan for
30:54 that. The day went perfectly, really, didn't it? Obviously, Jack Clarke, whose name had been bandied
31:00 around on deadline day, reports of him being unhappy. He scored to start a quell. Lowe's,
31:06 Pierre Écoeur, who'd been linked with a move away, getting two, developing superbly. Bradley
31:12 Dac getting his first goal and then the icing on the cake with Chris Riggert was a real classic day.
31:16 Yeah, I think it was probably, you know, it's a great example of why football is such an
31:22 unpredictable sport. There probably wasn't much difference in Sunderland's first 20 minutes against
31:27 Southampton and against Ipswich, other than in that Ipswich game, you know, Job just can't quite
31:32 turn that effort into the goal and that completely changes the game. So, there probably wasn't a huge
31:39 amount of difference, as you say, between the performance on Saturday and the performances
31:43 two, three weeks ago. I think it probably, like you say, it offers confirmation that there is
31:48 the guts of a good team here. Does that have everything it needs to be a top six team? Well,
31:53 we don't know and we've discussed some of the issues in this podcast, you know, potentially
31:57 an injury away from some issues in central midfield, some uncertainties at the top, even
32:02 though there's a lot of strikers, which is pleasing, but it certainly shows that there's sort of
32:05 a good side here. One thing I do think, off the back of the Coventry game, the previous game as
32:12 well, I think the intensity out of possession has gone up another level in the last couple
32:18 of weeks. I don't know sort of why that is, what the factor for that is, whether there's been a
32:22 bit of a reset or just fitness growing or what, but I think the intensity out of possession.
32:28 Coventry were a really good side and that was a really tricky game and I was hugely impressed
32:34 with Sunderland's work rate and the way that they, especially late on, because Coventry's squad I
32:38 think was more developed at that point, they were able to make a lot more subs and bring on a lot
32:42 more established players. It took huge effort from Sunderland to get a clean sheet and someone out
32:46 of that game and I think out of possession they brought that into the game last week and I think
32:51 they wanted it more. I thought Neil Inequa dominated in midfield, which is not an easy
32:56 thing to do against that calibre of player. So, while I think the performances broadly, like you
33:01 say, have been similar in quality, I think we've seen that intensity from the end of last season.
33:06 If you think back to the clean sheet away at Burnley, the clean sheet away at Norwich, beating
33:11 West Brom, I think that intensity is kind of back and if that continues into the next
33:18 group of fixtures, hopefully it marks the start of a really exciting period.
33:22 Just on Pierre Équart as well, Joe, what a performance. He was very surprised not to get
33:27 man of the match afterwards. Gave a great interview as well. I think you spoke to him
33:32 afterwards. Just comes across as a really good character to have around and a really good
33:38 footballer as well. If you compare his value from when Sunderland signed him to now,
33:42 arguably another zero on the end of it. He's fast developing into a pretty, pretty important
33:49 asset for Sunderland and given the current transfer climate with the money banded around for
33:56 midfielders in the Premier League, not that I'm trying to sell him at all, I hope he's at Sunderland
33:59 for a very long time, but the point being that he's growing in front of our eyes and that's going
34:04 to be very beneficial for Sunderland, I feel. Yeah, he was excellent, wasn't he? He was excellent
34:08 on the pitch and he was a very bubbly personality off the pitch. It's the first time I've spoken to
34:12 him. I feel even give him a 10 in his player ratings, he was that good. Yeah, he was outstanding.
34:18 It was an all-round midfield performance, only two goals. He was doing the defensive side of
34:24 the game. He was tracking back into his own box a couple of times and making interceptions. I mean,
34:29 the third goal where he intercepted the Southampton pass, beat one man, beat a second man,
34:34 and then drilled one into the bottom corner was an excellent goal. It just makes you wonder how
34:39 West Ham allowed him to leave for such a small fee, or if that fee, we're not even sure how much
34:46 Sunderland paid, but it was a very small amount of money to bring Equire in. It just makes you
34:50 wonder how a player like that can go under the radar and Sunderland have obviously recruited him
34:54 very well and are now reaping the benefits of that. I think he works well alongside Neil. I
34:59 think the way that they can rotate, I think we've spoken about it last season, that at times when
35:04 Neil dropped back into that holding midfield role, he looked quite isolated at times when he was
35:09 kind of adapting to a new role. I think now, Equire in there as well kind of takes a bit more
35:13 responsibility off him to be that sitting midfielder. And speaking to Equire afterwards
35:18 as well, he said one thing that Tony Mowbray has always said to him is, "Take more shots from the
35:23 edge of the box." And we saw what he can do on Saturday with two goals, even though maybe the
35:28 goalkeeper got a hand to one, maybe should have kept one out and one took a deflection, but it
35:32 shows what he can do. And he's got all the attributes to be a really top player and Sunderland
35:37 have done very well to pick him up for a very small amount of money. Indeed, probably the best
35:43 thing David Moyes has ever done for Sunderland. Lots of reports flying around about Equire at
35:47 the moment in terms of sell-on fees and percentages, but I think it's one of those where you
35:52 just enjoy him playing at the moment. We're going to end the podcast, but Phil, you've been for a
35:57 sit-down with Christian Speakman over the past couple of days. Tell us about that. Tell us about
36:01 what content you're going to have coming over on the Sunderland Echo website in some shameless
36:05 promotion to tail off the podcast. Yeah, well, I think obviously people would have seen Christian's
36:11 interview with the club now, which he spoke with the club about the general strategy for the summer
36:17 window. So I would just say we've probably got a few pieces to look out for over the next week,
36:23 which hopefully will go into a bit more detail on some of the big talking points that we've been
36:28 talking about on this podcast, really. Some of the big deals, what happened, what didn't happen,
36:33 and what it all means moving forward. So yeah, there'll be lots of little bits and bobs from me
36:39 over the next few days, which we'll keep posting. So keep an eye out for that. I think it'll
36:44 hopefully give a bit more background to a lot of the kind of things we've been talking about today.
36:50 Excellent. And how are we all spending the international break off? The work doesn't
36:54 stop, but you don't have to attend games. What are you both up to?
36:57 Well, I'll be last game of the cricket season on Saturday. So that'll be my day.
37:05 Fit and firing again after the interview? No, no. I'll just be enjoying the sun,
37:11 hopefully. It'll probably start raining now that I've said that.
37:14 Joe, what are you up to?
37:15 Actually, a wedding on Saturday. Not my wedding.
37:18 No, I was going to say, you've kept that quiet. If so.
37:21 Right, well, we're mumbling now, we're rambling. So on that note, we'll end the podcast. Keep an
37:28 eye out for the speak interview with Phil over on the Sunderland.co website. There's also a
37:32 boatload of other content around transfer, Southampton, and there'll be some preview of
37:36 the QPR stuff as well as keeping abreast of all of Sunderland's players whilst they are away on
37:42 international duty. Thank you once again for listening.