Sunderland make it three wins on the bounce after Blackburn Rovers victory
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00:36 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:41 I'm your host for today, Joe Nicholson, and I'm joined by my colleague Phil Smith.
00:46 We're going to be reflecting on Sunderland's 3-1 win over Blackburn at
00:50 Ewood Park.
00:51 It's the result which means Tony Mowbray's side have now won three league
00:55 games in a row to move up to fourth in the table.
00:58 Jack Clark scored twice, which means he's now scored five goals this season,
01:03 while Dan Neil's strike on the stroke of half time helped Sunderland retake the lead
01:07 after Harry Lennon's equaliser.
01:10 Phil, we were both at the game last night.
01:12 I think it's fair to say that Sunderland did ride their luck at times,
01:15 particularly in that first half.
01:17 So what were your kind of reflections on the match coming away from Ewood Park?
01:21 >> Yeah, I thought, kind of as you've alluded to there,
01:26 the starting point was being incredibly impressed with Blackburn, really,
01:29 in terms of, I suppose, some similarities with Sunderland, really.
01:32 A very young side, very, very dynamic, really impressive in the movement and
01:38 the way they moved the ball.
01:39 And I think that Sunderland probably just weren't quite at it to begin with.
01:43 And I suppose a lot of luck allowed them to stay in the game and
01:48 also some excellent last-ditch defending as well.
01:50 And to be fair, there are two parts of the game, attacking and defending.
01:54 And when you have players like Ballard, it always gives you a chance.
01:58 So I thought that Sunderland were very lucky to be in the lead at half time.
02:02 The second half, I thought, was a very different game in that
02:05 Blackburn still looked really dangerous.
02:07 He still felt like they could score goals.
02:09 But Sunderland looked just as dangerous, I thought.
02:12 I thought they looked like a really good counter-attacking side.
02:14 They won the ball back in some dangerous areas.
02:17 And really, Blackburn couldn't touch Clarke in that second half.
02:19 He looked like he was on a different level to anyone else on the pitch, I think.
02:23 So I think the pleasing thing for Sunderland is that over a period of four or
02:27 five days, they've had two away games, and
02:30 they've found different ways to win both games.
02:32 They've had things go their way at times.
02:33 They've had a little bit of the luck, for sure.
02:36 But they've won two very different games against two completely different opponents.
02:40 I mean, you couldn't find a more stark style between Gareth Haynes with
02:44 Kupia and Jón Dál Thomas and Blackburn.
02:47 So to find a way to win both games, I think it reflects the fact that I think
02:50 there's a maturity about these players now.
02:53 And yeah, they had to show a bit of resilience to get a bit of luck.
02:57 But certainly in the second half, they looked like they could score a lot of goals.
03:02 You mentioned Clarke now, as I said before, is now on to five already this season,
03:05 two of those from the penalty spot, with one coming last night.
03:09 And as you said, Blackburn really struggled to deal with him.
03:12 Mowbray was actually saying after the match he wasn't too happy with Clarke in
03:15 the first half because of his work off the ball defensively.
03:17 I think Niall Huggins got a little bit exposed on that left-hand side.
03:21 But his quality in the final third really showed.
03:23 And I suppose it just shows how important it was for Sunderland to keep him when
03:28 there were bids coming in from Burnley over the summer.
03:30 And just what a key player he's going to be this season.
03:34 Yeah, and I think it probably, I think one of the things that Mowbray has talked
03:38 about this season is that working on Clarke's positioning in terms of being
03:44 more aggressive and getting in the box.
03:46 He is one of those players who likes to hug the touchline,
03:50 quite often likes to drop deeper and sort of drive in the field,
03:53 which of course is still very effective.
03:55 But I think something that Mowbray has worked on is getting him to the back post,
03:59 getting him into more attacking positions.
04:01 His first goal against Southampton, that little back post head is obviously
04:05 a great example of that.
04:06 And the fact that he's stepping up and taking these penalties shows where his
04:10 confidence is at.
04:11 Absolutely crucial player.
04:12 And I think ultimately this is why the Burnley deal never really made sense
04:17 for either party in the summer.
04:19 So we know that if Burnley had put a huge bid on the table that met Sunderland's
04:23 valuation, Sunderland may well have accepted it and Clarke may well have gone
04:26 for talks and he may well have decided to go to Burnley.
04:29 But I think ultimately the fee was never at a level that Sunderland felt reflected
04:35 where Clarke was and where he could get to.
04:38 And I also think Clarke had the understanding that Clarke's been to a
04:40 Premier League club where he wasn't really in the team and it really slowed
04:44 his development.
04:44 And I think he understands that being pretty much the main man and he's at the
04:49 top of the championship, if he does that for another year,
04:52 his options are going to be incredibly strong.
04:54 Whether that's potentially getting a new, improved deal at Sunderland,
04:58 whether it's potentially getting more Premier League interest,
05:00 but from established teams, you want to give him a start and role.
05:02 You know, that could potentially be on the table for him if he continues this form.
05:06 So I think what we're seeing at the moment is a reason why that deal was just
05:10 never quite right, either for the club or for the player.
05:15 Because I think everyone could see that as much as he's had a brilliant year
05:18 last year, there was still a little bit more to come from him.
05:21 And I actually think we're seeing that this year.
05:23 And, you know, that second half, there aren't many players better to watch
05:28 than Clarke, never mind more effective.
05:30 So, so difficult to stop, such a huge out there for his team.
05:34 And yeah, I think everyone can reflect on that summer decision,
05:39 that summer interest from Burnley and feel like the right decision was made.
05:42 Because I honestly don't think Clarke's really losing out at the moment because
05:45 he's playing his way into a position where, you know, there could be bigger
05:48 clubs than Burnley who would potentially interest him in the future.
05:51 Or he could be, you know, not ruling it out, he could be leading someone to
05:55 somewhere very, very, very exciting indeed.
05:57 So really, really, really good to watch.
05:59 And I suppose it just goes to show as well, there was a lot of noise around
06:02 Clarke in the summer.
06:03 I don't think anyone can doubt how committed he is at the moment to this
06:06 team and this project.
06:07 He is absolutely loving it.
06:08 I think he enjoys the responsibility and he enjoys the sort of adulation he's
06:13 getting from fans.
06:14 And it's a real pleasure to watch at the moment.
06:18 - Yeah, I think you can see that as well, can't you?
06:19 I mean, he's kind of goal celebrations, particularly the one against Southampton
06:22 a couple of weeks ago.
06:23 And then he spoke very well yesterday after the game and his club interview.
06:27 I don't think there were too many complaints when he went down for the penalty
06:29 from the Blackburn player.
06:30 He kind of got there first and then got kind of wiped out, I think, by the
06:34 Blackburn player.
06:35 But Mowbray was frustrated by the Blackburn equaliser, which came shortly
06:40 after Clarke's goal.
06:43 There were kind of some appeals that maybe the ball went out of play and then maybe
06:45 some appeals that it was offside and he was booked as well after that.
06:49 So what did he kind of have to say about why he was frustrated about the
06:54 equalising goal?
06:55 - Yeah, I think his frustration was that the linesman wasn't in line with the
07:01 cross.
07:03 So, you know, which is true.
07:04 We had a good angle to see it.
07:06 We can see the linesman was a good 10 yards behind where the cross was actually
07:09 played for.
07:09 So Mowbray's frustration was that he was in absolutely no position to make a
07:13 judgment on whether he was offside or not.
07:15 I mean, by the sounds of it, it looks like Huggins was actually playing Leonard-On.
07:20 So it's hard to be particularly critical because I think the right decision was
07:23 made.
07:24 Now, when Mowbray spoke, he hadn't seen that decision.
07:26 So he wasn't actually, didn't know for sure whether he was onside or not.
07:29 But yeah, his frustration, I think, was ultimately that the linesman wasn't
07:36 really in the right position.
07:37 I think it was one of those frustrating goals as well because obviously Sunderland
07:40 were down at 10 at the time, weren't they?
07:41 Dan Ballard had taken a knock when he challenged the keeper.
07:44 But unfortunately, those are the new rules.
07:47 They're crystal clear.
07:48 Everyone understands that if you get treatment on the pitch, you have to wait
07:52 30 seconds at least to rejoin the play.
07:54 That was obviously a tough one for Sunderland to take, but that'll be the same
07:58 if an opposition player gets injured.
08:00 And we've already seen that at times this year.
08:01 So I think the other aspect of that, it was really hard to argue that Blackburn
08:05 didn't deserve a goal.
08:07 They definitely benefited from the fact that Ballard was off the pitch.
08:11 But I mean, they created some big, big chances in that first half.
08:15 But I'm sure Ballard will be clean and he's still got a clean sheet because
08:19 technically he was on the sideline when Leonard scored.
08:22 Yeah, he was excellent last night, wasn't he, Ballard?
08:24 There was one block in particular when the game was nil-nil and he threw himself
08:28 to block the ball on the line and then give a big fist pump to the away fans.
08:32 But Sunderland getting that crucial goal on the stroke at half-time, it's the
08:35 second game now that they've scored right before the break with Dan Neal converting
08:39 after Pritchard's corner was kind of half-cleared and then a very good finish
08:43 from Neal and Clark and Mowbray admitted after the game that Sunderland didn't
08:47 quite get that press quite right in the first half.
08:50 And as you say, Blackburn probably deserved their equaliser at least.
08:53 And we're unfortunate to be going in 2-1 down at half-time.
08:56 But it was a crucial time again to score like the game at QPR on Saturday, wasn't
09:00 it, getting it right before half-time?
09:03 Yeah, it was a huge moment in the game.
09:06 And I think that it was a really good finish from Neal.
09:11 I think you could actually see, you know, I know it sounds a little bit simplistic
09:15 to say when a player is sort of injured that it makes a big difference, but I thought
09:18 you could see that Eko was a miss in the first half.
09:21 And I think you saw Blackburn playing through Sunderland's midfield quite easily.
09:27 I actually thought that Jo was excellent in the second half.
09:31 I think that, you know, and it's totally understandable when you've got, you know,
09:34 a 17-year-old playing a different role to what he's been doing so far this season.
09:38 It's going to take a little bit of time.
09:40 I thought both Neal and Jo were excellent in the second half.
09:43 And I thought they were much more physical.
09:46 And yes, there were times when Blackburn played through them and created chances,
09:49 but they're a good side at home chasing the game.
09:52 So you expect that.
09:53 But actually, so many of Sunderland's best chances in the second half came from
09:56 either Neal or Jo winning the ball back quite high up the pitch.
10:00 And that totally changed the dynamic of the game.
10:03 And I think that, you know, Mowbray said his instructions were pretty simple at half-time.
10:07 There wasn't anything overly tactical about it.
10:08 It was just about lifting that intensity, getting tighter to Blackburn's midfield,
10:12 making some more challenges.
10:15 But having that lead that you mentioned that they got just before half-time was so important
10:19 because they could afford to let Blackburn try and force the issue,
10:22 knowing that they had Clarke, knowing that they had Barr,
10:25 knowing that Roberts would be able to come off the bench.
10:27 They knew they were going to be able to play that kind of counter-attacking strategy.
10:31 And you see that with the third goal, right?
10:32 Blackburn play a really risky pass into midfield that Neal pounces on,
10:36 and all of a sudden Sunderland have a huge overload and they're able to counter.
10:39 So I think that goal was so important in terms of...
10:43 That goal on the stroke of half-time was so important in terms of just settling Sunderland a little bit,
10:47 but it also put them in the ideal scenario for how they wanted to play that second half,
10:51 which was to kind of invite those risky passes from Blackburn into break.
10:55 And obviously that was a huge part, as we've discussed,
10:57 you know, Clarke's brilliant second-half performance.
10:59 The platform was winning the ball back in midfield so they could feed him in space.
11:04 And obviously from there, he did the rest.
11:06 Yeah, as you mentioned there, Equart wasn't playing last night.
11:10 There was one change last night to the starting 11 from the QPR game with Equart coming out.
11:15 Alex Pritchard came in into the number 10 position,
11:18 and then that meant Joe Bellingham dropped a bit further back.
11:23 But looking ahead on that, Phil, Clarke obviously then with the third goal,
11:28 it kind of just showed that Sunderland took their chances on the night,
11:31 and that proved crucial in the end.
11:34 Yeah, I think it was a clinical performance, I think.
11:39 And I think it goes back to a little bit of what I said before about Clarke
11:42 in terms of really honing in on that end product,
11:45 getting into those really dangerous positions, attacking the goal a little bit more,
11:50 being a little bit more direct in his running.
11:53 I mean, it's a really seriously high-quality finish, isn't it?
11:56 So easy to sort of snatch at that or take the shot early or just fire it into a block.
12:01 But to have the composure to wait and to take it past those defenders was a brilliant moment, really.
12:07 And I think that is a big part of where Sunderland are at.
12:10 I think most of the games this season, they've probably been the better side,
12:14 or they've had a good level of control.
12:16 But even when they're not, they've got such attacking quality in the final third
12:21 that they always have a chance in games.
12:23 And Clarke winning the penalty in the first half,
12:25 even though his team were playing pretty poorly, kind of sums that up.
12:28 And I think that's what's quite exciting at the moment,
12:30 because Berstow is only going to get better as he acclimatises.
12:34 I think Aouchiche has looked seriously talented both of the last two games he's come off the bench.
12:39 You know, Roussing obviously hasn't made his debut yet.
12:41 Pembele hasn't made his debut yet.
12:43 Mienda hasn't made his debut yet.
12:45 He's got Dak to throw into the picture.
12:47 So while I think, especially if you look towards next month in October,
12:51 there are some really, really tricky fixtures.
12:53 And I don't think anybody expects Sunderland to keep getting four wins from five and go unbeaten.
12:59 But there is actually, I think you can hope that when Equs fit,
13:02 when Serkin or Alissa is back fit, they can actually get stronger in terms of their squad.
13:07 And that's a really exciting place to be,
13:10 because the quality in the final third already is pretty strong.
13:14 You mentioned Berstow there.
13:15 He made his second appearance after making his debut against QPR.
13:19 He got around 64 minutes again when he was replaced by Patrick Roberts.
13:24 And Mowbray has spoken about this in the pre-match and post-match that he's,
13:28 the team have kind of got used to playing without that centre forward,
13:31 that he expects the centre forward to drop deep and link up play.
13:35 So it is probably going to take a bit of time for Berstow to settle in.
13:39 But what have you made from what you've seen of him and kind of his potential in this side?
13:43 Yeah, I think he's got some really good attributes that are quite exciting.
13:48 He's quick. You can see that he's quicker than the defenders he's coming up against.
13:53 What we haven't quite seen yet is he's not quite on the wavelength with his teammates
13:58 where he's ready to really exploit that.
14:00 So a couple of times where he almost got off the shoulder,
14:03 but the pass was just a little bit short or the first touch wasn't quite there.
14:06 But he's clearly got pace that is going to really help Sunderland.
14:09 And there was one moment in the game as well where he showed a brilliant touch
14:12 and then played a big first-time switch out of bar, which completely opened up the game.
14:17 So I think we're seeing that he's got technical quality.
14:20 We're seeing that he's got pace.
14:21 And I think even in the second half last night, I know he came off,
14:24 but you can see that already in two games, he's getting a little bit better at using his body.
14:29 He's becoming a little bit more used to grappling with the defenders,
14:32 which he probably hasn't had to do too much of in under-21s football.
14:36 So I think there's some really encouraging signs there.
14:38 But I think what you say is absolutely right.
14:40 This is a team that's developed to expect the striker to come really deep,
14:44 to play little one-twos, to really contribute to the build-up,
14:47 as we saw Gellart do. He was probably the best example of that.
14:51 And Berthoud, to me, looks like he wants to be a little bit more direct.
14:54 He wants to stretch the play a bit more and run off the shoulder.
14:57 So I guess it'll be a two-way process, really, of him adjusting to the players behind him,
15:01 but also the players behind him adjusting to knowing that that option's there.
15:05 We haven't seen Pritchard play those balls over the top or through the middle,
15:09 because there's been no-one there to meet it so far.
15:12 So I think there's going to be a bit of an acclimatising process.
15:15 And there'll definitely be times, I think, where Mowbray goes with no striker,
15:21 and he plays a dack off the front or somebody like that.
15:23 I think he'll definitely do that on occasions.
15:25 But I'm quite excited about Berthoud. I've been quietly encouraged by what we're seeing from him.
15:31 And like I say, the big thing is he's got a lot of pace,
15:33 and that's something that we haven't really seen Sunderland have in the final third.
15:37 So it's nice to see them have that little bit of variety.
15:41 We saw that yesterday, didn't we, when Berthoud came off and Roberts came on,
15:44 and he was almost the furthest player forward.
15:47 But you mentioned a few of the players that were missing last night.
15:50 Equard, Dak. We know Sirkin's going to be out for a couple of weeks with a hamstring problem.
15:55 Roosin's still awaiting his visa documentations.
15:59 Do we expect any of those players to be back for the weekend against Cardiff on Sunday?
16:04 I think it's highly unlikely.
16:07 I think Mowbray said he was looking at around a week to 10 days for Equard.
16:12 I don't think it's one where you want to take any risks just because of his importance.
16:18 So I think it's highly unlikely. Dak would have a slightly better chance,
16:21 because I think Mowbray said we probably could have gambled with him against Blackburn.
16:26 We just felt that we didn't need to because we had Pritchard.
16:32 And so I would be surprised if Dak was risked.
16:34 I think what they'll do is they'll just give him the weekend, let him rest and maybe look at him again next week.
16:40 But theoretically, he could be involved if some of them felt he needed to.
16:44 Roosin, obviously, they were expecting the visa to arrive on Monday.
16:49 So I suggest that it's nearly done. And I suppose there's every chance it could have been done since then.
16:55 But I think he would only be on the bench anyway.
16:58 Mowbray has been pretty clear that he's not ready to start a game.
17:01 His English isn't great, so he's kind of finding his feet a little bit.
17:07 He certainly doesn't have that real understanding of the team and what he needs to do at the moment.
17:13 Hopefully that's something that will come over time.
17:16 But I definitely think we'll see him use his impact substitute first and foremost.
17:21 Yeah, I think as well as Sunderland are doing, perhaps we may be asking a bit of a lack of strength in depth,
17:26 particularly kind of in central midfield with Ekwars injury, Bellingham's had to drop back there.
17:31 But in terms of kind of the selection dilemmas for Sunday, perhaps Roberts comes back in.
17:37 Could you see any other changes to the starting 11 that played at Blackburn?
17:40 I think it's hugely unlikely. I think Roberts, it could be a good time bringing him back on Sunday.
17:45 I think Barr's been a really interesting one because I think he's taken a huge step forward these last few weeks.
17:51 Last night wasn't his most explosive game.
17:53 He missed a couple of half chances, but I'm really impressed with how much better his discipline is now.
17:59 He very, very rarely leaves Humer exposed.
18:02 He's holding the ball up much better than he did when he first came on the team.
18:07 So I'm really sort of encouraged by what he's done.
18:09 But at the same time, he has played four games in a row, particularly this week.
18:14 Two away games have been really demanding.
18:15 It feels to me like it might be a really good opportunity to just say, you know, you've done really well.
18:20 You've taken a huge step forward, but we're going to bring Roberts back in for this one.
18:24 I think beyond that, I don't foresee any changes.
18:27 I don't think you're going to see him take any big risks by changing the midfield.
18:32 His only other real option would be to bring Chris Rigg in, but I think that's unlikely at this point to start again.
18:40 And I think defensively, like I say, we're circling out. I don't see any changes.
18:44 So I think Roberts is probably the obvious one.
18:46 I think there's a really good chance he starts on Sunday.
18:49 But otherwise, I think the balance of the side will pretty much be the same.
18:54 Well, Sunderland definitely going into the game in good form.
18:56 Three wins in a row and up to fourth in the championship ahead of that game against Cardiff on Sunday.
19:02 So, Phil, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the RAW podcast.
19:06 We'll have more build up to Sunday's game against Cardiff back at the Stadium of Light with Sunderland back on home turf.
19:13 We'll, as you say, we can have more build up to that game over on the SOC section of the Sunderland Echo website.
19:20 So once again, thanks a lot for listening to the RAW podcast.
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