For the latest instalment of NME's In Conversation series, Ren talks about his new album 'Sick Boi', being correctly diagnosed with autoimmunity, lyme disease and brain damage, the success of 'Hi Ren' and more.
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00:00 I think across the spectrum,
00:01 even if you're not going through something,
00:04 I would like to see my purpose as a musician
00:07 as being able to, I don't know, yeah,
00:10 exactly that, create human threads,
00:12 make people feel less alone,
00:13 or be able to create understanding
00:15 for the people who can't really speak for themselves
00:17 because they feel a little bit voiceless
00:19 or they feel castrated by their condition.
00:28 Hi, I'm Nick, and I'm joined by Wren
00:30 for the latest in NME's In Conversation series.
00:33 How's it going today?
00:34 It's going well, mate, yeah.
00:35 Got an amazing new album, Sick Boy,
00:38 coming out very soon.
00:39 What's the overall story
00:40 that you're trying to tell with the album?
00:41 So the album, for me, it was like,
00:44 at the start, I'd moved away from my management at the time.
00:48 I kind of felt a little bit like,
00:49 it was like a new transition in life.
00:50 I was about to, I was planning
00:53 with everything to go to Canada.
00:54 I was raising money for this health treatment
00:56 'cause I'd been dealing with an autoimmune condition,
00:57 which I'm still dealing with.
00:59 It was basically at this time,
01:00 it was just like, everything was a little bit turbulent.
01:02 It was right after COVID.
01:04 And I was just like, I wanted to make something
01:08 that was just fun for the love of it, again.
01:10 I didn't really plan anything other than that.
01:12 I was just like, you know,
01:13 everything has been for a purpose
01:14 or everything has been trying to build towards something.
01:16 And I was like, I just want to make something for me
01:17 'cause I was so like, in this space of like,
01:20 everything just felt a bit so up in the air.
01:21 Even going to treatment in Canada
01:23 was like a big daunting thing.
01:24 I had to move country to go for treatment.
01:25 So I was like, I just want to do something.
01:27 What I used to do when I was 13 is just go.
01:29 There was never me thinking when I was 13, 14 years old,
01:32 when I started getting in production,
01:33 oh, when I get old, like, I want to do this.
01:35 So this happened to my career or anything like that.
01:37 I was just doing it because I'm flipping love,
01:39 sitting down, making beats and making music.
01:41 So I just did that again.
01:42 And I started building this album.
01:43 So originally there wasn't really a through line with it.
01:47 It was just simply, I just wanted to make for me.
01:50 And I wasn't thinking too much about it in a way.
01:53 And then it just kind of grew into what it was.
01:55 And then Sick Boy came because my mind was so occupied
01:59 with health at the time, because everything is geared
02:02 towards going to Canada, right?
02:05 To undergo like almost a year of treatment.
02:07 So that started creeping and leaking into the themes
02:11 of what I was writing about.
02:12 And Sick Boy, which is named after the title track,
02:15 became one of these experiences for me as well.
02:18 So the narrative changed from just doing it for myself
02:21 to this kind of, it's a bit of a tapestry.
02:24 There's tracks that are just fun for the love of making it.
02:26 And then there are tracks that are a little bit more
02:29 symbolic of the journey that I've been on as well.
02:31 - At what point did you actually realise,
02:32 hang on, this isn't just a collection of tracks
02:35 that I've been working on,
02:36 but I feel like I can put this together into an album.
02:37 Did that happen quite gradually?
02:39 - No, it didn't.
02:40 (laughing)
02:41 No, mate, no, 'cause I had tracks lying around
02:43 for a little while that made it onto this one.
02:45 So, and then I had a lot of new stuff as well.
02:47 No, it didn't.
02:49 Once I just had to, I realised that certain point,
02:51 I was like, there's quite a lot of things here
02:53 and they've all got this similar feeling to them.
02:55 So it almost happened by mistake.
02:57 And then the album originally was meant to be 12 tracks
02:59 and it grew into 14, then it grew into 16,
03:01 then it grew into 18.
03:02 And I was like, I've got to get rid of some of these
03:04 'cause I've got this weird thing in my head.
03:06 This is like, oh, it's a weird OCD thing.
03:08 I can't release an album if it's got an odd number of songs,
03:12 unless it's 11, because there's two double digits.
03:15 This'll make me sound fucking crazy.
03:16 Or like 15, because that's half of 30.
03:18 (laughing)
03:19 But there's a lot of insanity coming through here.
03:21 But like, 'cause 13, I can't do that.
03:24 17, nah, that's wrong.
03:25 So if it moved up to 14 tracks and then I write one more,
03:29 I'm like, fucking hell,
03:30 I've got to make another song to bring up to 16.
03:32 (laughing)
03:33 It's the way my mind works, isn't it?
03:35 But yeah, yeah, it's weird.
03:35 - If straight after this interview,
03:37 like Inspiration Strike, this amazing track came out,
03:39 you'd have to make another one straight after
03:40 to put another two on the album.
03:42 - Yeah, it'd have to be 20, it could be 19.
03:44 Nah, yeah, it'd have to be.
03:45 But 20 is a lot for an album.
03:47 But yeah, I don't know.
03:48 - What track on the album do you think
03:50 will surprise people the most?
03:51 - I think it's probably gonna be Money Game, part three,
03:55 just because that was something,
03:59 I don't know, the narrative, the video concept, everything.
04:02 I love films of characters who come from,
04:07 it's like a growth journey where,
04:09 like, or a series like Breaking Bad or Scarface,
04:13 or you know where you have this journey
04:16 from innocence to corruption.
04:17 And so much showed that like,
04:19 when it's a bit of a villain character,
04:21 you almost feel empathy for them,
04:22 even though they're like, by the end of it,
04:24 you're like, this guy's a dickhead.
04:26 But like, by the end of it,
04:27 there's still a feeling of empathy towards them
04:29 because you're like,
04:30 I can see what happened on that journey, the credit.
04:34 And I hadn't really heard a song like that
04:37 that summarized that journey.
04:39 And so I was like,
04:40 I really wanna write a song like that.
04:41 So I think, I guess what I'm trying to do a little bit
04:44 is blur the lines between film and music.
04:48 And that's always sort of something
04:49 I've learned into a little bit more.
04:51 So I think, hopefully, that's the one that surprises people
04:53 because yeah, I got very inspired by writing it.
04:56 - What's the concept for the video?
04:58 - The concept for the video, it's an interesting one.
05:01 It's a journey, so it's me as the narrator,
05:03 but I'm also like the narrator, the character,
05:05 the perpetrator, the witness, all at the same time.
05:09 A bit like the first Money Game.
05:11 I'm sort of embodying a few different things.
05:13 And then I'm walking through this warehouse.
05:15 It was like, we went to the Secret Garden party.
05:18 It was a boiling hot day.
05:20 I managed to get like 20 extras in these hostage sacks.
05:24 It was sweaty, mate.
05:25 It was painful, but we pulled it off.
05:29 But, and the concept is basically,
05:32 it's me moving as the narrator.
05:34 And it was all done in a one shot.
05:35 It was moving through different phases
05:37 of this person, Jimmy's life,
05:40 from the point of birth to corruption.
05:42 And there's themes like his dad's coming along
05:44 with relentlessly pushing him to strive for more,
05:46 to be ruthless and greedy,
05:48 almost like the embodiment of like the negative sides
05:51 of the American dream, right?
05:53 Be ruthless and chase what you want.
05:54 And it doesn't matter if you step on anybody on the way.
05:56 It's just like, and I wanted to capture that
05:59 'cause it can become quite an insidious force.
06:01 So I really wanted to capture that in narrative.
06:05 And yeah, so the video, he's moving through,
06:09 and some of the stuff we pulled off on the video,
06:12 'cause I think it's out by the time
06:13 this interview comes out, right?
06:15 Was really cool.
06:16 Like the Secret Garden Party guys were wicked
06:18 'cause it would be like, I'd be like,
06:20 "Can we make it rain inside?"
06:21 And they were like, "Yeah, we can probably figure out
06:23 "how to do that."
06:24 So I was like, "Cool."
06:25 And then they'd go off for like two hours,
06:27 fashion together something out of hose pipes
06:29 and just make this indoor rain machine.
06:32 And then we had, yeah, we just had a lot of cool things.
06:35 I mean, a lot of really cool people on board.
06:36 This guy, Bo, who was the camera operator at the time,
06:39 he just came up with some really wicked cinematic ideas
06:43 for the shots where you have these crazy panning shots.
06:45 Because it's all done as a one shot,
06:47 it's really important that it remains visually engaging
06:49 because I don't know if you have,
06:51 did you ever see the film Victoria?
06:53 Right, so I really recommend it.
06:55 It's like this independent film.
06:57 And it's all done in a one take.
06:59 It's two and a half hours.
06:59 - Is it a German film?
07:01 - Yeah. - I have seen it.
07:01 It's amazing. - You have seen it?
07:02 - It's incredible, yeah. - Mate, that's almost
07:04 what inspired me with, 'cause I do a lot of one take stuff
07:06 now in my work.
07:08 I remember coming out of that,
07:08 'cause my mate was like, "Oh, do you wanna come
07:10 "watch this film?"
07:11 I didn't ask him anything about it.
07:12 I think that was almost better.
07:12 And I came out of the cinema like, "What the?"
07:15 And I just think it was so good.
07:17 Like, and you forget sometimes
07:19 that you're watching a one take.
07:21 I feel like when it's simple like that,
07:23 you almost become more invested in the story
07:25 because you can have music videos
07:27 where there's so much going on
07:28 and there's flashing, cutting from scene to scene,
07:30 scene high budget, this, this, this, this, this.
07:32 Building blows up.
07:33 I'm on top of a skyscraper with a helicopter.
07:35 But like, when you refine and simplify these stories
07:39 and you're just there on that journey,
07:41 which I thought Victoria did really well,
07:44 I feel like there's something a lot more human about it
07:46 and that's what I love.
07:48 Like, trying to tell those stories
07:49 and make them a lot more human.
07:51 - When you're working on a track,
07:52 are you kind of thinking of the visuals at the same time
07:54 or does the visuals tend to come later?
07:55 - Yeah, my mind works very much like that.
07:57 - Is that how it works, okay.
07:57 - Yeah, and I think because I started as a producer
07:59 rather than a songwriter,
08:01 I've always kind of had this 360 view
08:03 and even when it comes to the music videos as well,
08:06 I'm almost imagining the music videos as I'm producing it
08:09 and they both steer each other.
08:13 So like, I'll be coming up with a music video.
08:14 So when I was writing "Sick Boy" for example,
08:16 there's this dialogue between me and the therapist
08:19 and I was, the reason that that came about
08:20 is because I was like,
08:21 this would look wicked on a music video.
08:23 So it's almost like the visuals dictate the story.
08:25 And the same with "Money Game Part Three."
08:27 Like, there's a moment where I'm like,
08:29 I end up paralysed in a wheelchair
08:31 and the reason I put that in is
08:33 because I thought, oh, visually,
08:34 it would be so unexpected and great
08:36 if this nurse comes in and wheels in a wheelchair.
08:39 So yeah, for me, it's almost like 50/50 in a way.
08:43 So like, 'cause I know a lot of artists,
08:45 they do the music and then they conceptualise
08:47 the music video, but I feel like a lot of the time,
08:50 while I'm writing the songs,
08:51 the music video is becoming,
08:53 it's so much an integral part of that creation process.
08:56 - Are you someone who can,
08:57 can inspiration strike for you at any point
08:59 or do you have to kind of think, right,
09:00 today's the day I'm gonna go and write,
09:02 I'm gonna set aside some time?
09:03 Like, how does it tend to work for you?
09:04 - I think it works both ways, man,
09:06 because like, yeah, sometimes I'll just be like,
09:09 you know what, I'm gonna sit down
09:11 and I'm gonna produce some music
09:12 and I'm gonna play around with things
09:13 until I find inspiration.
09:15 And then, yeah, other times it can just be,
09:17 the time it normally mostly strikes me
09:20 is when I find a new artist or watch a movie
09:22 or something that I haven't experienced before.
09:25 I love finding new artists and they do something
09:28 and I'm like, damn, this is so good.
09:31 And then there's almost like this inner,
09:33 not necessarily Aries in me, but it's in the thing,
09:35 I'm like, I've got to make something really good.
09:37 And then I'll just like go off and be like,
09:39 I guess so it's why it happened
09:40 when I first saw Tash Shultz-Arner
09:41 doing her loopy thing in the bedroom with Jungle
09:43 and it happened with a bunch of movies that I watched.
09:46 But yeah, when I love those moments or those moments,
09:49 or even if I see a live show,
09:51 I'm like, that was phenomenal.
09:53 It just forces me, I think, to strive for better
09:56 if I see someone doing something incredible.
09:58 So that's usually like one of the richest sources
10:00 of inspiration for me actually.
10:02 - What do you see your purpose as an artist as being?
10:05 - Damn. - Big question.
10:07 - Yeah, yeah.
10:08 I'd like to say creating threads of humanity
10:13 between topics that are sometimes quite difficult
10:16 to talk about.
10:17 And I think it's interesting because what I've realized
10:20 with the community of people that are resonating
10:21 with my work at the moment is there's a voice for people
10:24 either chronic illness, who've been,
10:26 with anxiety disorder, social anxiety.
10:29 It's a voice for people where,
10:31 and I'm not trying to sugarcoat it
10:33 and I'm not trying to make it anything other than as ugly
10:35 as it can sometimes be or as beautiful
10:37 as it can sometimes be.
10:39 And I think by creating that window into that world,
10:44 a lot of people feel seen.
10:46 And I think it's really important to see people
10:48 because it's a very isolating place to be a lot of the time.
10:52 So, and sometimes say it's like chronic health problem
10:56 or anxiety where you don't wanna leave the house
10:57 or you don't wanna talk to people.
10:58 Like having a companion in that time
11:00 is really important thing to do.
11:02 And I think in mainstream music,
11:04 sometimes it's an area that's not so much catered for.
11:09 So I think being able to cater for that.
11:11 And beyond that then people who have never gone
11:14 through those things can almost have an empathy window
11:18 so they can start to understand the people that do.
11:21 'Cause I've had people reach out to me and go,
11:23 "Oh, my daughter or my son has been struggling
11:27 "with depression and I didn't really understand
11:29 "what they were going through
11:30 "because they weren't able to articulate it.
11:32 "And I've listened to this and it's really helped me
11:34 "understand and sympathize."
11:35 So I think across the spectrum,
11:38 even if you're not going through something,
11:40 I would like to see my purpose as a musician
11:43 as being able to, I don't know, yeah,
11:47 exactly that create human threads,
11:49 make people feel less alone or be able to create
11:51 understanding for the people who can't really speak
11:53 for themselves because they feel a little bit voiceless
11:55 or they feel castrated by their condition.
11:58 - When you released "High Run" way back
12:01 at the start of the year, did you have any inkling
12:03 that it would connect with people in such an amazing way?
12:06 I mean, when you go on, I mean,
12:07 we can talk about the stats,
12:08 it's got 60 million YouTube views,
12:09 but it's the comments that are really amazing.
12:11 Like I kind of got stuck in a real loop reading them all
12:14 'cause people are, as you say, like really connecting
12:16 and at a deep level, it's people talking
12:17 about their own experience, people they know.
12:20 Did you have any inkling it could have that kind of impact?
12:23 - I knew when I stumbled across the idea
12:24 that it was a pretty unique one,
12:28 but funnily enough, when I came off filming that,
12:31 I was like, "Oh, I messed that up."
12:33 Like, okay, we came off that,
12:35 because basically we were in this basement
12:36 that we didn't get permission to use, yeah?
12:38 Like, it was just like this guy that we found on Facebook,
12:41 like legend, this guy called Will,
12:42 and then he let us in this basement,
12:44 but like half an hour into recording,
12:46 we had everything set up, it was fine,
12:48 everything was going well.
12:49 The landlord runs downstairs and he goes,
12:51 "You guys need to get out of here right away."
12:53 And we'd done one take at this point,
12:55 and I was like, "Mate, please, please,"
12:57 because I had to go to Canada literally like two weeks later,
12:59 and this was the only other time
13:00 that we had the whole film crew out there,
13:01 so if we hadn't done this,
13:02 and I'd been rehearsing for it for like weeks and weeks,
13:05 like meticulously trying to nail that guitar part,
13:08 trying to get all the facial expressions, everything,
13:10 like I planned things to excess,
13:12 and then it was like, I was like,
13:14 "Mate, please, can we just have half an hour?"
13:17 So like he gave us half an hour,
13:20 and so we only actually managed to get four takes in,
13:22 and in my head I was like, "We don't have enough."
13:24 'Cause normally we go for at least like 15, 20
13:26 to make sure that we've got a safety one,
13:27 and we didn't have a safety one,
13:29 so I came away from that going,
13:31 "Oh, fuck, we messed it up."
13:32 Like I was just like, "It's not good."
13:34 And then just, even when I watched
13:37 the first run through the footage,
13:38 I was like, "I'm not sure if it's good enough,"
13:40 but then I started editing together,
13:42 and yeah, by the end of it, and by like,
13:46 you know, I sat with the mix a little bit
13:48 and polished the mix up, and then by the end of it,
13:51 I remember there was a moment where I sat down
13:54 with my mate Vic and I showed him it.
13:56 He was just like, "What the fuck did I just watch?"
14:00 And that response, and I was like, "Okay, cool, good."
14:04 Like I really, 'cause he's honest,
14:06 he'll be brutally honest with me if he doesn't like it.
14:08 So, and then I sent it to another one of my friends
14:11 who I really trusted, and he was just like,
14:12 "Mate, this is gonna change your career."
14:15 And it was right, man, like I put it out there,
14:18 and the traction and what it did
14:20 for my entire back catalogue, what it did for,
14:22 like I guess the trajectory of my career
14:25 was pretty incredible.
14:26 So yeah, I think those responses
14:30 really helped me feel confident in it,
14:32 and then just that initial response from the community,
14:35 and over the course of the next three months,
14:37 it was really surreal, 'cause I was in Canada,
14:38 obviously, treating my health.
14:40 So it's a weird juxtaposition, 'cause I'm there
14:43 sitting down, getting IVs five days a week in my arm,
14:46 and like going through pretty grueling treatment
14:49 for autoimmune condition and post-Lyme disease.
14:51 I'm just watching on the internet,
14:54 the statistics go crazy, like the amount of subscribers
14:57 coming in, the amount of comments,
14:59 people like crazy high-level artists
15:02 that I'd admired for years contacting me and going,
15:04 "Oh, I'm really inspired by your work."
15:06 And I'm like, it's yeah, it was amazing,
15:09 but weird timing, yeah.
15:11 - When you were having your treatment in Canada,
15:13 were you able to do, could you be creative at that time,
15:15 or was it too, did you not have the energy
15:17 to kind of think about the next step?
15:19 Was it, had to be like focused on the treatment
15:21 and nothing else? - For the first three months,
15:22 I was in a massive creative block.
15:25 But luckily, so I kind of almost pre-empted that,
15:30 and had this album, Sick Boy, ready to go.
15:32 And I hadn't released any of the tracks,
15:33 so tracks like Animal Flow, Sick Boy, all those trunks.
15:36 The videos had been recorded months and months
15:37 before I even left for Canada, so they were,
15:40 and I kind of knew this, because I was messing around
15:42 with new meds, sometimes like meds that affect
15:46 your cognition, and so I was like a zombie
15:49 for the first three months I was out there pretty much,
15:51 while I was trying to find the right fit
15:52 of medication and stuff.
15:54 So I wasn't creative at all, I didn't write,
15:55 I didn't pick up my guitar, I don't think,
15:56 for the first three months, I didn't write any songs,
15:58 I was just like, (imitates guitar)
16:00 but what was cool was, because I had all this back,
16:03 I was able to upload videos, interact with the fan base,
16:08 just sit down and soak in everything
16:10 that was coming with high-res.
16:11 It really cheered me up, actually,
16:12 'cause it was a really isolating time,
16:14 and it was really like, first moving to Canada,
16:16 I was missing my mates back home and stuff,
16:18 so it was nice to have this song just bubbling
16:22 and doing the things it did, yeah, it was cool.
16:25 - How's your health at the moment?
16:27 - I'm managing a lot better than I was when I first,
16:32 which is always the goal in Canada,
16:33 so I'm on new medications, making me feel a lot more stable.
16:36 I'm on a treatment regime that's lowering inflammation
16:39 in my body, I've learned how to manage my health.
16:42 It may be something I'll have to do my whole life,
16:44 'cause autoimmunity is a complex thing.
16:46 I haven't quite figured out how to switch
16:48 things like this off yet,
16:50 and there's never any guarantees,
16:52 but what I have done with this,
16:55 it's a really comprehensive plan of nutrition,
16:57 of medication, of lifestyle.
16:59 I just feel better in my head and my body.
17:03 My mind feels a lot more clear,
17:06 and my eye feel a lot more calm,
17:09 and my pain levels have gone down quite a bit.
17:10 I still, to be honest, I still
17:14 haven't got the energy of a normal person.
17:16 I still have to deal with,
17:17 even right now, my legs hurt.
17:19 I still have to deal with carrying the weight
17:24 of feeling a little bit crap every day,
17:26 but it's gotten, it's a lighter shade of crap.
17:31 It's easy to deal with.
17:33 - I feel like that's a good thing for people to hear, though,
17:35 'cause sometimes with any kind of condition,
17:38 we kind of hear the story that it's all about finding a cure
17:40 whereas lots of people live with conditions
17:42 that are up and down their whole life,
17:44 and there isn't necessarily an end cure.
17:47 - I think this was coming back, linking that to higher end,
17:49 that's almost a sentiment I wanted to put out there
17:51 is that when I was at my worst,
17:54 it was just like, I was in this mindset
17:57 of I have to find a cure, I have to find a cure,
17:59 and I hate this, and if I don't find a cure,
18:01 I just wanna die, I just want everything to be over.
18:03 It wasn't really until I was like,
18:06 you know what, I might have to live with this forever,
18:09 but that's totally okay.
18:10 Some people are out there with missing legs,
18:13 some people are out there confined to a wheelchair
18:16 their whole life, and these people just have to carry
18:20 that burden and still try and make life
18:23 the most enjoyable as it can be,
18:24 because we still don't know what it means to be here
18:26 as human beings, we don't know what, really,
18:29 what we're doing, but I feel like one of the most
18:31 important things is to make it a most interesting,
18:33 enjoyable experience, despite our circumstances.
18:36 You could be born into extreme poverty,
18:37 you could be born into abuse.
18:39 So these are just the cards that I was doubting,
18:41 it wasn't really until I really sat with that
18:45 and been like, that's okay, that I started
18:48 being like, enjoying my life, when I stopped
18:51 seeing this thing as the enemy, and just started
18:53 seeing it as enemy, and started seeing it as a part of me.
18:57 Yeah, I felt a lot more at peace,
19:00 but I think you can still strive for more within that,
19:02 it's not just like, I'm accepting this,
19:03 so I'm not gonna do anything about it,
19:05 'cause I'm still out in Canada treating it,
19:06 but there's just not that pressure anymore,
19:09 'cause if it doesn't completely cure me,
19:12 which it may not, I'm in a much better
19:16 relationship with it, yeah.
19:19 - Does it affect some of the decisions you make
19:20 in terms of your career, like, would you be able
19:22 to do a really big tour?
19:24 Like, would you think, like, you know,
19:25 I can't spend 22 hours on a video shoot,
19:27 which sometimes artists do, they just kind of
19:29 make it an all nighter, would you have to think,
19:30 no, I shouldn't be doing it like that?
19:33 - The video shoot, I usually shoot myself
19:35 in the foot with that, 'cause I'm such a perfectionist,
19:37 like, Money Game, I didn't eat all day,
19:39 and I was like, directing everyone,
19:40 and I stayed there exactly until like,
19:42 four or five in the morning.
19:43 But that's just purely because once I'm in,
19:47 in that place, it has to be right,
19:49 because there's so much that's gone into it
19:51 on the back end, and I'm just a massive perfectionist
19:54 with those things, I don't wanna mess 'em up.
19:57 But then with a tour, yeah, there's a much higher
20:00 degree of pre-empting you can do there,
20:02 so I don't know how my health is gonna be next year.
20:04 It's better now than it was, so I don't,
20:07 I'm just kind of going, this year was difficult,
20:09 I had to turn down a slot at Glastonbury,
20:11 I had to turn down slots at a lot of these major festivals,
20:15 which look really cool, because I had to focus on my health,
20:19 so it really just is, I don't know is the answer
20:22 in terms of touring, but if it is something
20:25 I have to manage my whole life, it probably means
20:27 that I'm not the sort of artist that'll be able
20:29 to go on like, 60 doors.
20:31 You see a normal person do that,
20:32 and they come home like, beaten, bro, so like,
20:36 yeah, even if it was healthy, I'd probably try
20:39 and find more interesting ways, I mean,
20:41 when I start touring, I wanna start doing some things
20:43 that are a little bit more unexpected anyway,
20:45 and I wanna start making these experiences
20:48 a bit more unusual, I wanna start like,
20:52 maybe making it feel a little bit more
20:55 on the ground for the people.
20:56 We did this show for the Tale of Jenny and Screech,
20:59 which was like this concept that I came up with,
21:01 where we just built a stage in Brighton,
21:02 car park, right, we found a car park in Brighton,
21:04 we didn't tell anyone that we were planning on doing this.
21:08 We built a stage out of like, MDF planks and stuff,
21:10 and then we, I just put a post on Instagram,
21:12 like, we're doing an outside show, free show,
21:15 secret location, you'll be met with people in balaclavas
21:19 at the train station, so we did that, we put it on,
21:22 like 500 to 1,000 people showed up,
21:25 they were walked to this like, secret location
21:27 that we had, which was actually where we filmed
21:29 Screech's Tale, and we put on this show,
21:32 and it was one of my favourite shows we've ever done,
21:33 and the police did show up in the end,
21:35 and they know me from Buskings, so it was like,
21:37 oh, it's just, it was just like, fuck,
21:39 it's just Ren doing this thing.
21:41 So they were actually really cool with it,
21:43 'cause I've always been really respectful for them,
21:44 and Brighton police get a lot of stick,
21:47 but they're actually all right, and yeah,
21:50 so I spoke to them about it, and they were just like,
21:53 as long as no one gets hurt, we're just here to make sure,
21:56 like, keep the peace, so they turned up at the end,
21:58 and that was actually fine, and yeah,
22:00 I wanna do a bit more like that, stuff like that,
22:03 'cause I've always been a little bit more,
22:07 I like doing things that are a bit more disruptive,
22:09 and that energy of chaos about 'em, yeah.
22:12 - Another amazing track you've put out this year
22:13 is Suicide, just came out in June.
22:16 What was the story you were trying to tell
22:17 with that track, and were you in any way apprehensive
22:19 about putting out such a kind of powerful song?
22:22 - It's funny, 'cause that song started,
22:24 that song started, I actually wrote that one in lockdown,
22:27 and it was just really about my own struggles
22:29 with mental health, and I had this song,
22:30 and it was only like two minutes long,
22:32 and I was like, but it's still probably
22:34 like quite a singly song, and then I was like,
22:37 well, if I'm feeling this feeling of apprehension,
22:40 I can either just live with that feeling,
22:42 or I can do something about it, so I was like,
22:44 I just sat down at the piano,
22:46 so I'm just gonna add a section.
22:48 I really liked, in a lot of Kendrick tunes,
22:51 he just switches up, like halfway through a tune,
22:53 and the beat just goes somewhere completely different.
22:56 It's been played with more and more,
22:57 in hip hop these days, I've noticed that happening,
22:59 be a total vibe switch, and I was like,
23:02 so I just did that, I just sat down at my piano,
23:04 and I started writing, I came up with this kind of like,
23:06 melancholy piano that was very simple in the song,
23:09 and then I just had that line that,
23:11 it's hard to take off from the ground
23:12 when your wings are cut, your stomach burns
23:14 when you're drinking from an empty cup,
23:15 and initially, it was gonna be about me again,
23:17 or it was just gonna be about my struggles,
23:18 and I just started writing, and it was like,
23:20 unintentionally, it just started flowing out,
23:22 and the story of one of my best mates,
23:26 who tragically lost a suicide,
23:28 just started leaking out, for the first time in a long time,
23:32 which was kind of took me by surprise,
23:33 'cause it hadn't been something
23:35 at the forefront of my mind,
23:36 'cause it had been a long time, I'd grieved about it,
23:39 I'd dealt with it, I'd moved past,
23:41 I'd come to terms with what had happened,
23:42 and it started coming out,
23:43 so obviously there was a pocket in the me there,
23:45 that still hadn't quite let things go, I dealt with it,
23:48 and as I was writing, and as that line,
23:53 I dumped my youth inside a trunk inside a pickup truck,
23:56 and dumped them off the same bridge, the one you jumped,
23:59 'cause you jumped off this bridge,
24:00 and I just started thinking about it,
24:02 like I started thinking about it, 'cause it was true,
24:05 it's like I lost my youth,
24:07 like I lost my innocence of youth the day that happened,
24:09 and the feeling of indestructibility,
24:12 'cause you hear about people dying,
24:13 but it never really pierces your veil of existence,
24:15 it's never like your friends,
24:17 or people that you see every single day,
24:19 and tell everything that you do to,
24:23 and yeah, it was really weird not having round,
24:25 and I do remember that,
24:26 altered my perception of life so much,
24:30 when it's taken away, it's for someone you love,
24:33 and yeah, it just fell out of me,
24:35 and I didn't try and write it,
24:38 I'd write like two lines, get in the vocal booth,
24:41 and record it, and then come back and write two lines,
24:43 and because of that, I was crying,
24:44 because it was so fresh,
24:47 it wasn't like something I'd rehearsed again and again,
24:49 it was so there, and I just left it,
24:51 usually with takes, I'll do 10, 20, 30 passes of them,
24:55 until I get it perfect,
24:56 with this one, it was always just the first pass,
24:57 I'd record the two lines,
25:00 write another two lines, record the two lines,
25:02 and the whole thing came together
25:04 in about an hour or two hours,
25:05 and then I just stuck it on the end of "Suicide",
25:08 and I think it makes it what it is,
25:09 it makes it a lot more impactful,
25:11 and then worked with this amazing animator,
25:16 who incorporated some elements of AI into this music video,
25:20 and yeah, came together, and I'm happy with it, yeah.
25:23 - On the flip side, when we touched on this earlier,
25:25 but when you've had moments
25:26 where you have had a creative block,
25:27 is that incredibly frustrating for you,
25:28 'cause it feels like you're not doing this thing
25:30 that is so important?
25:31 - Well, it's funny,
25:32 when it's a chemically induced creative block,
25:36 which is the case with the medications on my health,
25:39 it feels incredibly frustrating,
25:41 and I feel impotent,
25:42 it's like, when I know my mind has the capacity to create,
25:47 but a tiny little pill,
25:50 or an immunological dysfunctional process
25:54 that's going on in my brain,
25:56 is creating a dam between me and this source,
25:58 'cause for me, creation is life, it's the life source,
26:01 it's the closest thing to God that I know,
26:03 and it's like, when that is out of my reach,
26:08 because of some chemical induction,
26:10 or something like that,
26:11 probably some of the most frustrated times I've ever had,
26:15 when I was really in the thick of my illness,
26:17 back in 2015,
26:19 I didn't pick up my guitar for a whole year at one point,
26:23 because I was physically unable to,
26:26 'cause I was so weak and in pain,
26:28 and that was one of the most difficult things
26:31 about being ill, actually,
26:33 it wasn't even the symptoms,
26:34 it was that I knew I had the ability to do it,
26:38 but I couldn't do it,
26:39 it was like I was cut off from my purpose,
26:42 and I think that, yeah,
26:43 it's incredibly frustrating, I think.
26:45 - How did you keep going in that moment,
26:47 when you felt like, yeah,
26:48 your purpose was being taken away from you?
26:50 What kept you going?
26:51 - Probably the fact that I knew it was in my capacity
26:54 to do it, 'cause I feel like,
26:56 if I didn't have this,
26:58 if I hold on, I may be able to do this on the other side,
27:02 dunno if I'd be here,
27:03 like, if I didn't have this,
27:05 because I was lucky that I was affirmed
27:08 when I was quite young,
27:10 that I was good at this music thing,
27:12 and this creation thing,
27:14 because that helped me be like,
27:17 even in the early stages,
27:18 like, when I get better, I'm gonna do this,
27:20 when I get better, this is gonna happen,
27:22 when I get better, I'm gonna do music,
27:23 I'm gonna pour myself into it,
27:25 and if I ever get the chance,
27:26 I'm just gonna give it 100%,
27:27 and I think it was that, funnily enough,
27:30 the thing that frustrated me the most about my condition
27:32 was the fact that I could do it,
27:33 was also the thing that gave me hope,
27:34 it was like this paradox,
27:36 because then, knowing that, on the other side,
27:39 'cause if I didn't have that,
27:40 I'd be like, what am I really fighting for?
27:42 'Cause then I could get through it all,
27:44 and be lost, because I've just lost my 20s,
27:46 and I'm like, I didn't,
27:48 'cause that was one of the difficult things as well,
27:50 about being sick for my entire 20s, pretty much,
27:52 it's like, when I started coming out the other side,
27:54 I was like 27, 28, and I'm like,
27:56 I don't really have the opportunity
27:57 to be able to mature into this age,
28:00 like, all my mates have done all these things,
28:01 their heart's broken, they've grown up,
28:04 they've got their first proper job,
28:05 they've like, some of them got married,
28:07 some of them got their first house,
28:10 like, I never had a chance to do any of those things,
28:13 so I just had to land in the body of a late 20-year-old,
28:16 and learn to swim, you know?
28:19 - What age did you realise that music
28:21 was the thing you were meant to do?
28:22 Was it very young?
28:23 - Yeah, proper young, I was lucky in that respect,
28:25 I think I was about 10,
28:27 my dad gave me this little beaten up guitar,
28:29 for one, I think it just came back from this car boot sale,
28:33 and it's like this little trashed acoustic,
28:35 I just take it everywhere with me, man,
28:37 like, it was like a second limb,
28:38 like, I take it on the bus to school,
28:40 I take it to dismay my teachers,
28:42 I take it around with my mates' house
28:43 whenever we'd hang out,
28:44 and I'd just always be like,
28:45 learning John Vershante, or Kurt Cobain,
28:48 or Jimi Hendrix riffs, or whatever,
28:50 I'd just be like, I don't know why,
28:53 it was just like this hyper fixation, obsession, almost.
28:56 - What kind of music were you listening to growing up?
29:00 Did you have a Britpop phase?
29:02 'Cause you did the Bigger Sweets Symphony.
29:04 - Anything good, man, like, but yeah,
29:07 to be honest, like, yeah, I got into my Britpop,
29:10 like, I was big into Blur, I was big into,
29:13 yeah, I liked The Verb.
29:14 At the time, I wasn't so much an Oasis guy,
29:16 but that grew on me later on.
29:18 I think the only reason that put me off Oasis
29:19 is 'cause whenever I'd try and play someone,
29:21 someone would be like, play Wonderwall, mate,
29:22 and I'd be like, fuck off, I just, I don't want to.
29:25 And, but then, I actually, I spent a little bit of time,
29:28 and I was like, actually, yeah,
29:29 Noel is an amazing songwriter,
29:32 and Liam's an amazing frontman,
29:34 and, but it wasn't 'til later on
29:36 that I kind of, at the time, I rejected it
29:38 'cause of the merciless requests to play that song, man.
29:41 But, but yeah, but I was, yeah, I was massive into it,
29:45 and I love a lot of Damon's work, man.
29:47 I thought it was brilliant, and yeah,
29:51 it was such a cool accolade, man.
29:52 So I did, obviously, Bittersweet Symphony
29:55 is a British Britpop anthem, innit?
29:57 It's like one of the biggest ones,
29:59 so I did my own take of it.
30:01 Just, it was really just for me, man.
30:03 I was doing those retakes,
30:04 I did some Fatboy Slim as well,
30:06 but it was really just me wanting to play around
30:08 with the songs I love.
30:09 I didn't really think it was gonna do as well as it did,
30:11 and then, it was almost like my ode to,
30:15 it was almost like my take of what they were trying to say,
30:17 this, like, my ode to the contradictory nature
30:21 of how beautiful, broken, middle-class, working-class
30:26 Britain is, like, all these different contradictions
30:28 that you have, there's, like, a lot of poetry in it.
30:30 Like I was saying, like, you have a pregnant mum
30:32 with a, going into a pub, having a pint,
30:34 and like, there's something beautiful
30:35 about the dysfunction of the UK.
30:38 I love it, it's one of my,
30:39 I think it's my favourite country on the planet,
30:42 purely because of those things.
30:44 Like, that's what, you know, I grew up just mucking about
30:46 in council estates and stuff, and like,
30:49 there's something beautiful about it for me,
30:50 and I wanted to capture that.
30:52 And it was really nice having,
30:55 yeah, so, Si from The Verve, he saw it.
30:58 I got the email, it was mad,
30:59 I got the email 10 minutes before the premiere,
31:00 being like, "Oh, by the way,
31:01 "I'm tuning in to watch this premiere."
31:02 I was like, "Nah, nah."
31:05 And then, well, I spoke to him on the phone
31:06 before it dropped, and so there was a lot of pressure.
31:09 I was like, "Dah, I hope he likes this, God."
31:12 And then, yeah, he phoned me up afterwards,
31:13 he was like, "It's wicked, mate."
31:16 And he was like, "I've got this guitar,"
31:17 and when he sent it, he posted me this,
31:19 like, one of three guitars I ever made,
31:21 and I've got that at my house with my baby now.
31:23 And he also then, we've spoken a few times
31:25 on the phone since, and he's,
31:27 he sorted me out with some Charles Bukowski books,
31:30 he sorted me out with a few different bits,
31:33 he's just been posting, he's just like,
31:35 he didn't have to do any of those things,
31:36 but I think he's been really nice,
31:38 and the chats on the phone were really inspiring for me
31:42 to have someone who's been through it,
31:45 almost like, sort of like, mentored me in a little way
31:47 through, like, chatting me about what to expect,
31:50 what they went through, and it's cool, man,
31:52 really cool guy, yeah.
31:54 - You mentioned, like, you love the UK.
31:56 - Yeah.
31:57 - You grew up in Wales, you now live in Brighton,
31:58 why is Brighton the place that you've wanted
31:59 to make your base, 'cause that's,
32:00 I think Brighton's a place where you see
32:02 a lot of different types of,
32:03 you see all spectrum of UK life in Brighton.
32:06 - I think that's it, man, that's one of the reasons for sure,
32:08 it's like the multicultural aspect,
32:10 and then it's also the creative hub over there,
32:13 there's a lot of people doing stuff,
32:14 and coming from Wales, it's a beautiful place,
32:17 but no one's doing anything in terms of, like,
32:20 the arts, in different parts of the arts, yeah,
32:22 but in the music scene, where I grew up,
32:25 was pretty dead for what I wanted to do.
32:27 So I like that Brighton's a melting pot
32:31 of all different walks of life,
32:32 and I like that it's so,
32:33 it's a safe space to express yourself in whatever,
32:38 to explore it, it's got a lot of really good heritage,
32:41 like the modern rock scene back there,
32:43 and punk and stuff like that,
32:46 there's a lot of cool stuff, I think,
32:48 and I just, when you just spend time in Brighton,
32:51 especially on a sunny day,
32:53 you feel that it's an exciting place to be,
32:55 so yeah, it suits me.
32:57 - It feels like a place where anything kinda goes,
32:58 you can do whatever you want there.
33:00 - Exactly, yeah, yeah.
33:01 - And last question, when people hear the name Wren,
33:04 what do you want to kinda pop into their head?
33:06 - Well, storyteller is one,
33:09 'cause that's something I pride myself on,
33:10 is telling stories.
33:11 Another one would probably be, like, counterculture,
33:15 and it's an interesting thing, I was thinking about this,
33:17 counterculture, not necessarily,
33:18 when people think of counterculture,
33:19 they think of, like, opposition, revolution,
33:22 and I think the world that we live in right now
33:24 is pretty hyper-polarised,
33:25 so I actually think, politically, or emotionally, whatever,
33:30 but I think there's a lot of people shouting at each other,
33:34 and I think social media is quite
33:36 a contributing factor to that,
33:37 but I think counterculture, when that is your status quo,
33:42 is actually trying to find threads of humanity,
33:45 so it's not actually this big,
33:46 aggressive oppositional force,
33:48 it's like a counterculture of joint threads,
33:52 communication, and knowing that,
33:55 even though that your opinion offends me,
33:58 how can we find this point of mediation between us,
34:00 'cause I think that's one of the most important ways forward
34:04 for our longevity as a species, even,
34:08 like, it's a very important thing
34:09 that we learn to do that better.
34:11 So, yeah, counterculture, a storyteller,
34:13 I think those two would be brilliant to be thought about.
34:18 - Amazing, thanks so much for your time,
34:19 it's been really interesting.
34:20 - Thank you, bye. - Cheers, thank you.
34:22 (gentle music)
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