The World Cup has ended. Martin, Phil and James come together one last time to talk what Scotland, Wales and England need to do before the 2024 Six Nations.
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00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 Hello, and welcome to National World Kick and Chase podcast.
00:09 My name's Martin Simpson, joined once again
00:11 by Phil Grammley and James Copley.
00:14 And we're going to be discussing England, Scotland, and Wales,
00:17 their performances at the recent 2020 Free Rugby World Cup
00:20 in France, and what we expect from the Freeholm
00:23 nations going forward.
00:26 I want to start with Wales, James,
00:27 if that's all right with you.
00:29 It was an interesting World Cup.
00:32 I mean, obviously Wales, going into it,
00:35 no one really favored them.
00:36 And then it was just-- it was that one performance
00:39 against Australia that sort of gave a nation belief again
00:42 that all just came crashing down in the quarterfinals.
00:46 What's your immediate sort of feelings
00:49 now that the dust has fully settled on the tournament?
00:54 Yeah, it's interesting to look back
00:56 because I think we live sport, rugby, football,
01:01 any sport you watch, with a degree of recency bias.
01:03 So in the aftermath of Wales' win over Australia,
01:08 Eddie Jones' Australia at a Rugby World Cup,
01:11 a team in a different hemisphere, which was Wales'
01:15 Achilles heel for so long, I think
01:18 it was perhaps easy to get carried away.
01:21 We now know, having watched the full pool stage,
01:24 that Eddie Jones' Australia weren't really up to much at all,
01:28 pretty disastrous.
01:29 He's now gone.
01:30 You know, Australian Rugby Union is in a bit of a state,
01:33 by all accounts.
01:34 So perhaps that Australia game ended up being a barometer
01:40 of where we thought Wales should be,
01:41 when perhaps it wasn't.
01:43 I still do think it was disappointing to get knocked out
01:47 against Argentina in the quarterfinal.
01:48 I think it was a good opportunity to reach a semifinal.
01:51 I don't think Wales would have gone any further.
01:54 I think that much is fairly clear,
01:57 given the level of opposition that Wales would have faced
02:00 in the semifinals.
02:01 But I do think it was an opportunity missed.
02:03 I think we've seen from Argentina that they are a good
02:06 functional side under Michael Chekka.
02:08 But I honestly felt like Wales' ceiling was slightly
02:12 higher than Argentina's.
02:13 I think Wales lack consistency, but maybe Argentina have
02:17 a little bit more of it, despite not being as glamorous
02:21 and fair play to them.
02:22 But I do think the green shoots of recovery are there
02:24 for Wales.
02:25 Obviously, Jack Morgan's hopefully going to turn
02:28 into a fantastic captain, but there are issues as well.
02:32 Dan Biggar retiring, Fala Tau is not going to be there
02:36 any longer.
02:37 So it remains to be seen, really, how this Wales squad
02:41 is going to develop into the Six Nations.
02:43 There are exciting players coming through.
02:46 I think Warren Gatlin has proven that he's still
02:51 a test match quality coach.
02:54 But as ever, we've talked about on the podcast before,
02:57 it is about the state of Welsh rugby and whether
03:01 Warren Gatlin can paper over the cracks at the region,
03:04 at the regional level, which continues to be a battle
03:07 of sort attendances in Wales for the games over the weekend.
03:11 And it was four and five thousand.
03:12 And it's a real concern how the game is going to grow
03:15 in Wales, obviously, from a grassroots level.
03:18 Young boys and girls in Wales have a ball in the hand
03:21 pretty early.
03:23 But is it going to be seen as a viable career
03:25 unless you're a Welsh international?
03:27 Because there's not many Welsh international spots,
03:31 unfortunately.
03:32 So you need to earn a living.
03:33 You need to earn your crust.
03:34 Are players going to be able to do that in Wales
03:37 to have the cap rules and stuff like that?
03:41 So, yeah, I think there's a lot more questions
03:45 and answers coming into the Six Nations
03:47 and exiting the World Cup.
03:49 I think Wales probably performed as expected, really.
03:54 You know, they were in the right side of the pool on balance.
03:59 But, yeah, it's a very interesting case study,
04:02 I feel, going forward now into the Six Nations.
04:05 And it's hard to call.
04:06 I think that the positive is that they do have Gatlin,
04:08 who has papered over the cracks before.
04:10 But with players like Faletau, Bigger and Anscombe departing,
04:14 there's a lot of questions to be answered.
04:18 But with those questions comes opportunity as well.
04:20 Obviously, I didn't mention Lee Halfpenny there.
04:22 But, yeah, it's going to be all eyes to the Six Nations,
04:25 really, to see who's selected, who comes through.
04:29 But, you know, people didn't really know who Jack Morgan was.
04:33 He wasn't a household name sold 18 months ago.
04:36 And look how he's come to the fore now.
04:37 So, yeah, there's definitely opportunity there for Wales.
04:39 But it's whether that translates into being competitive
04:42 with the Six Nations, I'm just not sure yet.
04:45 Let me get back to you on this next question.
04:48 So I want to bring in Phil and myself just
04:52 to discuss sort of taking the emotion of being
04:56 a supporter out of it and what we look at it neutrally
04:58 and then see if your opinion is different.
05:00 So what I would ask, Phil, is given their performance
05:05 in the last two Six Nations, what for Wales is success?
05:10 I mean, from a coaching point of view
05:12 and a supporter's point of view, it's
05:13 going to be very different.
05:15 I would suggest where they are now,
05:18 winning all three of their home matches
05:20 would be something that the supporters
05:22 could be quite happy about.
05:23 Now, that means beating Italy at home, which is obviously
05:27 going to be one of their targets.
05:28 Beating Scotland at home, you would
05:29 assume is also going to be one of their targets.
05:31 It means beating France at home.
05:33 And for me, France are going to be out for blood in this Six
05:37 Nations after exiting their home World Cup in the quarter
05:41 finals, albeit in one of the best games of rugby any of us
05:44 have ever seen.
05:45 I think anything short of a grand slam for them
05:48 is going to be disappointing at this next Six Nations.
05:50 And I think that's going to be their one and only target.
05:54 So is winning that game--
05:57 that can be anyone in Cardiff-- but is winning that game
05:59 an achievable goal?
06:00 And maybe potentially, just given
06:03 where Ireland are going to be and given
06:05 what we've seen from England not quite
06:07 being the complete article, would
06:10 beating one of those sites away from home, which I think
06:14 even James will admit would be a shock result,
06:16 it would be an upset at the very least,
06:18 is that more of an achievable goal
06:20 than taking anything off this France side at home?
06:24 What do you think?
06:27 I mean, that's a really tough one.
06:28 And I suppose it depends how the next set of coaches
06:32 see the Six Nations.
06:33 I know already some people have been
06:34 talking about jettisoning players
06:36 and looking at a four-year cycle, which is very much
06:38 Eddie Jones's mantra about the Six Nations almost
06:41 don't matter.
06:42 Judge me on my four-year cycle in the World Cup, which
06:45 I really, really hope that the coaches don't do.
06:48 I hope Steve Borthwick, for England,
06:49 doesn't jettison a load of England players
06:51 that won't be there in the next World Cup,
06:52 but builds through slowly, A, because those players deserve
06:55 it, because they're the best team,
06:56 but also because the Six Nations is such a fantastic tournament.
06:59 It shouldn't just be used as a kind of a practice
07:01 for getting to that World Cup.
07:04 And yeah, I think in those one-off games, who can say?
07:07 I mean, France obviously are smarting.
07:09 Again, we touched on this before about teams
07:12 that do or don't choke in those big games.
07:14 And we know that Gatsby is a great coach for those one-off,
07:17 those kind of those games.
07:19 If he targets that and banks it, I
07:21 wouldn't say it's impossible for Wales to pull off something.
07:23 It'd be really interesting to see how that comes out.
07:26 We know Wales at home are a really tough team to beat.
07:30 They've got that 16th man with a crowd.
07:32 And when hymns and arias are ringing around the place,
07:35 it's a tough place to go and play rugby.
07:37 But you have to say, if you're a betting man,
07:40 that France side looks pretty impressive.
07:44 And I would probably expect them to do the business.
07:47 So yeah, for me, I think success for Wales,
07:52 it's such fine margins.
07:53 It's three wins would probably be success
07:56 because you know one of those three wins
07:58 is going to be a statement win.
07:59 And then it's one less.
08:02 You take one away from that.
08:04 You could lose at home to Scotland
08:06 and then get the statement win at the end against France
08:08 or away to England.
08:09 And you'd probably still be looking at the picture
08:11 overall as a disappointing campaign.
08:15 So what do you think, James?
08:16 Do you think maybe would you take three wins right now
08:20 as a supporter?
08:22 I probably would.
08:23 I think as a Welsh fan, you always want to beat Italy.
08:30 You always think you can beat Scotland.
08:32 That's no disrespect to Italy or Scotland.
08:34 Historically, you really want to beat England.
08:37 That probably looks achievable, you would say.
08:40 And then I think after that, you're hoping to be
08:43 competitive against Ireland or France.
08:45 You're hoping not to get blown away
08:47 because the level of rugby those two nations have played,
08:51 despite going out in the quarters,
08:53 is being sublime, really.
08:57 It's been amazing.
08:59 But what I will say is that we've talked about France
09:02 and they might be smarting and whatnot,
09:03 and they probably will be.
09:04 They'll probably come hell for leather.
09:07 But in terms of Ireland, they're supremely coached,
09:10 well-oiled machine,
09:11 but they're losing a couple of players as well.
09:13 And you'd sense they probably have the play pool
09:15 to deal with that.
09:16 But my point is, is that after this World Cup,
09:19 we just don't know how some of these teams are going to react.
09:22 So come February, we might have an idea in our head
09:26 of what's going to happen.
09:29 Something entirely different might come out of left field.
09:31 It's very much up in the air,
09:33 but it's worth noting that the past two,
09:36 six nations have been slams for Ireland and France.
09:39 So it is very difficult to look beyond that.
09:43 So yeah, I think certainly for Wales,
09:47 success would be winning a couple of games,
09:49 potentially getting a scalp in the third,
09:50 and then just being competitive, really.
09:53 And I think as long as there's the sort of,
09:58 as long as we can see what Warren Gatland's
10:00 trying to achieve, I think that that's acceptable.
10:03 I think under PIVAC at times,
10:04 it was really hard to see where Wales are going.
10:06 But I think in the World Cup,
10:07 Warren Gatland sort of established Welsh identity again
10:10 on a rugby field.
10:12 And if we can keep along that lines
10:15 and sort of rediscover what makes the Welsh
10:19 as a rugby nation tick,
10:20 I think that's really beneficial,
10:22 while he's still going to be blooding some of these.
10:26 Wales need a number 10,
10:27 and they need a fullback as well.
10:30 How long's Liam Williams going to last?
10:32 So there's all of this.
10:33 But I say that,
10:35 but there's some very good young players in that squad,
10:37 like Jack Morgan, like Lewis Rios-Dyer,
10:39 Josh Adams is still a good age.
10:41 So there's still the foundations,
10:43 but it's very tough to tell.
10:46 And World Cup rugby's different to six nations rugby.
10:49 It just is.
10:50 And Martin, as you say,
10:52 with that home advantage for Wales in some games
10:54 can really, really flip the switch.
10:56 And pressure's a funny thing.
10:58 So, you know, we talk about the French,
11:02 but their sort of reaction to being knocked out
11:04 of the World Cup is being, dare I say,
11:08 a little bit toys out the pram.
11:09 So, and I'm stereotyping here a little bit,
11:12 but with that sort of historic French mentality,
11:14 which we haven't seen flare up for a long while,
11:16 could that come to bear in the six nations?
11:18 I don't know, I'm just speculating,
11:19 but there's all sorts of things that could happen, I feel.
11:23 - We're waiting for France to do a France.
11:25 That's what you're saying.
11:26 - Essentially, yes.
11:27 - Well, we're going to take a short break now,
11:30 and then we'll be right back
11:31 to speak about Scotland and England.
11:33, and then we'll be right back to speak about Scotland and England.
11:34 (upbeat music)
12:02 - Welcome back to National World's Cook and Chase podcast.
12:05 We've just had a nice long discussion about Wales.
12:08 I've been dreading this,
12:09 but I think we need to move on to Scotland, guys.
12:11 So, finishing up on Wales is perfect,
12:15 because I think it's going to highlight the importance
12:17 for both Wales and for Scotland of that first opening match
12:22 of the 2024 six nations, or sorry, not the opening match,
12:27 but the opening match for both teams.
12:30 Wales against Scotland in Cardiff.
12:33 Wales need to win that, and honestly,
12:36 you would never see that Scotland,
12:38 unless the championship's on the line,
12:40 you would never see Scotland need to win in Cardiff,
12:43 because it's never expected,
12:45 but it's going to set the pace for Scotland's six nations.
12:48 If they can't win in Cardiff,
12:50 as good as Scotland are at Murrayfield,
12:52 I don't think they're going to be good enough
12:54 to beat this current France side at Murrayfield.
12:57 And then that puts them into England, going to Murrayfield.
13:00 Which, it's its own thing, really, isn't it?
13:03 You put form out the window when that match happens.
13:06 But I'm concerned, I can't lie.
13:09 This World Cup's really highlighted some,
13:13 I'm just going to have to say it in my mind,
13:15 some maybe deficiencies in Gregor Townsend as a coach.
13:20 I just think, we take the South Africa game, first of all,
13:25 we look at that and we say,
13:27 did Scotland expect to win that?
13:29 No.
13:30 Was what Scotland did the right approach?
13:33 Immediately after the game, in my opinion,
13:36 I kind of thought it was.
13:37 I thought, if the way the box line speed was,
13:40 if we tried to play our game against them,
13:43 they were going to shut us down,
13:44 they were going to turn us over,
13:45 and they were probably going to humiliate us.
13:47 Looking at how, obviously the box went on
13:51 to win the World Cup,
13:52 but looking at how their games went after that,
13:56 I don't necessarily now think that was the right thing to do.
14:00 I would have really, really liked to have seen
14:03 Scotland just playing their best game
14:06 and seeing how that went.
14:08 But then we get to the Ireland game.
14:10 Scotland had to play their own game in that.
14:13 They did the completely wrong thing.
14:15 They fronted up,
14:16 they tried to truck the ball up the middle
14:18 and Ireland turned them over and humiliated them
14:19 just the same way South Africa would have,
14:21 potentially could have done.
14:24 Scotland needed to get the ball to Finn Russell.
14:26 They needed to kick to the corners.
14:28 And I think that that Ireland game
14:33 could have been very different.
14:35 So in this Scotland game, going to Wales,
14:39 I just don't know, what's he going to do?
14:41 You're sitting there going,
14:43 "Get the ball in Dujan van der Werff's hands
14:46 as much as possible.
14:48 Get Darcey Graham in any kind of space.
14:51 You've got Hugh Jones and Thuy Phuoc-Loc who can do
14:54 great things through the middle."
14:56 And obviously Finn Russell being the player he is,
14:59 just let him pull the strings.
15:01 Obviously Scotland's back line is world-class.
15:06 Scotland's pack isn't world-class
15:10 without trying to sound too harsh.
15:13 There are good players and they're a good solid unit,
15:16 but they're not at the level of some of the other top teams
15:19 in the world.
15:20 And I think a lot of teams are going to exploit that.
15:22 So as well as just playing their game,
15:25 for me, Scotland would need to sort this line out.
15:29 I don't know how they're going to do it.
15:31 I don't know if maybe,
15:33 George Turner in open play is a terrific player,
15:37 but how much of that actual deficiency at the line-out
15:41 can come down to him at Ukar.
15:42 And you've got guys like a sort of experienced player
15:45 in Dave Cherry in the background,
15:47 or Ewan Ashman, who I think a lot of Scotland fans
15:50 are maybe crying out to get a chance.
15:52 Maybe this Six Nations would start at Wales
15:56 and would give Ashman the start
15:58 and see if that helps things a bit more.
16:01 I mean, who's controlling that line-out?
16:05 'Cause I can't see it.
16:07 But I know we've got, for example,
16:09 the players in there like Jamie Ritchie,
16:11 who would be the captain
16:12 and who would be the person you'd expect to,
16:14 but Ritchie Gray's the giant.
16:18 When you watch the South African line-out,
16:21 you are fully aware that Eben Etzeveth is the man
16:25 who is in charge of what is going on there.
16:28 And for me, Ritchie Gray should potentially,
16:30 if Gregor Townsend trusts him enough,
16:32 would be the man I'd want to do that,
16:33 the way Paul O'Connell did for Ireland back in the day.
16:36 There should be one man who's in charge of that line-out
16:39 and everyone should know who it is
16:41 and he should be the one making the call every time.
16:44 I don't know what you guys think.
16:46 I'm interested to bring you in and get your opinion,
16:48 starting with you, Phil.
16:50 Just where did it all go wrong for Scotland
16:52 at the World Cup in your eyes?
16:54 - Yeah, we've touched on this before,
16:58 about this idea about do you set up to play the opposition
17:00 or do you set up to play your game?
17:02 And I do think, you know,
17:03 occasionally teams throughout this World Cup
17:05 have fallen into the wrong trap
17:06 and have sort of tried to worry too much
17:09 about how the opposition are gonna play
17:10 instead of just putting their best game on the pitch.
17:13 Yeah, you're absolutely right.
17:14 Scotland, that backline that Scotland have,
17:16 you know, can destroy any team on the planet.
17:21 What they need is front football.
17:23 I still worry a little bit, as you say,
17:25 about how they're gonna get that.
17:27 Ashman, I think, is fantastic.
17:29 I've seen him a lot for sale.
17:30 I was very disappointed when he left
17:31 Salomon's in Edinburgh, but he's a great player.
17:33 He's also good in the loose as well.
17:36 You know, scores tries like a winger,
17:37 I remember, diving into the corner for it,
17:39 an immaculate Denny Salamone-type finish.
17:40 So he's got an all-round game.
17:42 And I sometimes think the hookers get the blame
17:45 for the line-up when it isn't necessarily their fault.
17:47 You know, is that down to the lifters?
17:49 Is it down to the call?
17:49 Is it down to what you're trying to do?
17:52 But they do need to find a little bit of grunt
17:54 from somewhere.
17:55 I do think if you can get that front football,
17:58 use Finn Russell at the gain line
18:00 and then bring in the likes of, you know, Van der Merwe,
18:02 you've got every chance of beating anybody on the day.
18:05 It's just having that consistency
18:07 and getting that front football all the time.
18:09 - James, do you find that,
18:10 going back to that opening game, the Six Nations,
18:12 and we'll just try and wrap up quickly,
18:13 'cause we do need to speak about England
18:14 unfortunately, but do you think we can,
18:17 do you think if Scotland play their best game
18:21 and have Finn Russell, Van der Merwe, Darcy Graham,
18:23 all these guys in sync and in unison
18:26 and singing off the same hymn sheet,
18:29 what do you think Wales' chances are going to be?
18:30 Do you think Scotland at their very best
18:34 are going to be capable of being favorites
18:36 potentially for that match?
18:38 - I'm not sure if they would ever be favorites
18:42 just because of recent results.
18:45 My concern is with Scotland's back line,
18:49 it can beat anybody on its day,
18:51 but when was sort of the last time we saw them do that
18:53 in a real pressure moment when it really, really mattered?
18:57 And I'll throw this question very quickly to you,
18:59 but is it time Scotland sort of,
19:01 and I'm not trying to trigger anybody here,
19:03 but plan for life without Finn Russell?
19:04 Because I know what we're saying about, you know,
19:07 the forwards need to create that space
19:08 and get over the gain line for Finn Russell
19:10 to work his magic, but I don't really recall,
19:14 and it's the chicken and the egg,
19:15 I don't really recall him seeing him do much
19:17 when it's mattered in the Six Nations recently
19:19 or in the World Cup.
19:20 And yes, you can argue all day long
19:22 about him having this space
19:23 and Scotland having go forward ball,
19:26 but is it maybe just time to move on from that?
19:29 I don't know, I don't have the answers.
19:31 Obviously I don't have my finger on the pulse in Scotland
19:33 as much as you, Martin,
19:34 but I just get that feeling that there's all this talk
19:37 about Finn Russell, talented although he is,
19:39 as well as he has done over his career in France.
19:42 But when it comes to the biggest of occasions,
19:43 I don't see him making the same sort of impacts
19:47 as a damn bigger Gareth Anscombe, Pollard,
19:51 I know that's a pretty impressive list,
19:53 but for me, he just misses something every now and again.
19:56 And yeah, there are little inconsistencies in his game
20:00 and when he's off, he's off.
20:02 - Look, James, it's simple for me.
20:04 For Scotland, no one's blaming Finn,
20:06 they're blaming the system.
20:07 And Finn Russell's a once in a lifetime talent
20:10 and no, you don't plan for life ahead of him without him.
20:13 We've got Ben Healy's there in the wings,
20:16 Ben Healy's a very different player,
20:17 but from what we've seen of him,
20:19 he looks like a very capable player.
20:21 But when he comes in,
20:23 maybe there's a different system that will fit him better.
20:26 But when you've got Finn Russell,
20:28 you build the team around Finn Russell and that's the end.
20:31 And if you're not doing that,
20:33 then for me, you're not the right man
20:34 to be coaching Scotland right now.
20:36 - Do you feel that Finn Russell is capable
20:38 of dragging Scotland through a big test match
20:42 with the same sort of force of character?
20:44 And maybe it's unfair to compare the two
20:46 'cause they're very different players and people
20:48 than say Dan Biggar did earlier on in the World Cup.
20:52 - No, because it's the word dragging
20:53 that I object to in that situation.
20:55 If Scotland played to Finn Russell's strengths,
20:57 then there's no dragging.
20:58 Finn Russell's cutting teams apart, it's as simple as that.
21:02 Yeah, there is a fair argument to say that
21:05 what are you gonna do when you come up
21:06 against a Springbok side that are just gonna
21:08 pummel you into the ground and batter you?
21:10 It's like, well, cross that bridge when you get there,
21:13 mid-match like the Springboks do.
21:15 If it isn't working, they change the tactics mid-game.
21:18 Don't start out negatively with the idea that,
21:22 well, we're just not good enough to play our game against them
21:25 and they're gonna destroy us.
21:27 I just, I can't accept that, I'm sorry.
21:29 And we need to move on, James,
21:31 'cause we need to speak about England, I'm sorry.
21:33 - Very quickly, to your point, all I'm saying is,
21:35 I think, honestly, Scotland and Finn Russell,
21:38 they could do with a game against Wales, they really could.
21:41 - Yeah, well, we'll have to see how that goes.
21:44 Look, once we go to England now, Phil,
21:48 so England, a bronze medal off the back of beating
21:51 a very below par Argentina team twice.
21:54 What are you thinking ahead of the Six Nations?
21:58 Because the biggest thing I've seen now is seeing
22:02 the fact that England don't have a front row left
22:05 going into this Six Nations because of the retirements.
22:08 After all the good work that Steve Borthwick's done
22:12 sort of building this England team to where he has,
22:17 it's a pretty monumental setback, isn't it?
22:19 - It is, having said that, I think we've discovered
22:24 some players this tournament.
22:25 I mean, it's interesting that Borthwick
22:27 didn't trust Jamie George an awful lot
22:29 and played him for 18 minutes in lots of games,
22:30 but then Theo Dan, I think, is a discovery.
22:33 I think Ben Earle has come of age in this World Cup.
22:36 I think some of those players that are moving on,
22:38 whether Billy Vonapola gets much of a look in again,
22:41 we are gonna miss some of those players, definitely.
22:44 I think someone like Courtney Laws
22:45 is an incredible servant at English rugby
22:48 and he just goes very quietly about his business,
22:50 melting people and folding them like deck chairs,
22:52 left, right and centre.
22:53 So we are gonna miss a bit of that.
22:54 The front row has always been an interesting issue
22:57 and you go back to the last World Cup
22:59 and what happened in the World Cup final
23:00 and whether or not that was a problem.
23:02 I do think there doesn't seem to be a huge conveyor belt
23:05 of front row talent coming through
23:08 and that is a bit of a concern.
23:10 But as we've touched on,
23:11 those moments provide opportunities.
23:15 We may well unearth somebody and have to play somebody
23:18 and they'll come out of nowhere and deliver.
23:21 I'm not gonna criticise Bevan Rod too much
23:24 'cause I'm a big Sale fan,
23:25 but I'm not sure his scrummaging is there quite yet,
23:28 but we know that front row has developed a little bit later
23:30 and he is really young,
23:31 so I still think he might come into it.
23:34 I think really what we've seen in this World Cup is
23:37 both have done a great job
23:38 from where they were pre-tournament.
23:40 Now, whether or not that is
23:41 because you believe Alad Wolters
23:42 and they were deliberately leggy
23:43 because he was trying to get them to peak at the right time
23:45 and they did, you have to say, they absolutely did.
23:48 They were one point off beating the Springboks.
23:50 They got that bronze medal.
23:51 They did better than anybody hoped for.
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23:56 So you can't really complain at that.
24:08 What they need now to do is put some attack
24:10 onto the top of it.
24:10 They've proven that they can grunt it out
24:13 and be stubborn and play without the ball,
24:15 which is a way that you have to play modern rugby,
24:17 particularly by the looks of it
24:18 and what's happened in the knockout games
24:20 and the World Cup.
24:21 Can they now go on and score tries
24:23 in the way that Scotland can score tries?
24:25 And I think that's the next step up for them.
24:27 We'll find out.
24:29 This Six Nations is gonna be fascinating
24:31 to see which teams reset,
24:33 which teams can bring on those talents
24:36 to replace the place that they are
24:37 and never to be going to lose
24:39 and where they stand at the end of that Six Nations
24:41 will be really fascinating to see.
24:43 - I'm gonna do what we did at the start of the programme
24:45 with Wales, Phil.
24:46 I'm gonna come to me and James
24:47 and just talk about what we think England might view
24:51 as success in this upcoming Six Nations.
24:53 And then you tell us how sort of close
24:56 or wide of the mark we're.
24:57 So for me, James, I know you as a Wales fan have said,
25:01 Wales can target that match at Twickenham as a win.
25:03 I agree with that.
25:04 I think Wales are capable of that.
25:06 I think there's nothing, again, form goes out the window
25:10 with the Scotland-England game at Murrayfield,
25:12 but as a Scotland supporter,
25:13 I will be expecting Scotland to win that match.
25:16 And then you look at the other matches,
25:20 England have got Ireland at home.
25:22 Ireland are gonna be a bit of a, not a mystery,
25:26 but there's gonna be less of a knowing about them.
25:29 - Some change.
25:30 - Yeah, there's gonna be changes there
25:31 and they're gonna have to go to Twickenham
25:32 and that's gonna be tough.
25:34 France game, they've got to go to Paris, I believe.
25:40 Yes, they do.
25:41 They have to go to Paris, the last match for Le Crunch.
25:44 If you've seen anything that suggests this England team
25:48 could beat France at the Stade,
25:49 because I know how close they ran South Africa
25:52 and South Africa obviously went on to win the tournament
25:54 and South Africa, terrific.
25:57 To South Africa, a different prospect to France.
26:00 England did what they did.
26:02 They went up and they fronted up
26:03 and they battered the spring box back
26:05 and it caused a lot of problems.
26:06 The spring box were quite lucky to come out of that match.
26:09 France aren't gonna do that.
26:11 France are gonna play their game
26:12 and I don't think England are gonna be able to handle that.
26:15 - Well, I think a similar story to Wales really,
26:18 in a sense that if you're an England rugby fan,
26:22 you want to beat Scotland, you want to beat Italy,
26:24 you want to beat Wales.
26:25 I think that's sort of three minimum really,
26:28 you want those three wins.
26:30 And then you want to continue on in the same vein
26:31 in the World Cup and you do want to be competitive
26:33 in those big games against Ireland and against France.
26:37 I haven't seen anything from this England team yet
26:40 that would suggest that they would beat France in France.
26:42 But again, to my point earlier,
26:44 we just don't know how they're gonna react.
26:46 I think they've got a better chance than they would have
26:48 now under Borthwick 'cause I think he's one of the winners
26:53 of this World Cup actually in a sense that he's been honest.
26:56 He's clearly, apologies to any Welsh fans watching this,
27:01 but I really like Steve Borthwick.
27:02 I really, really like him.
27:03 He comes across as a nice bloke.
27:05 He comes across as honest.
27:07 He's likable.
27:09 He's been pragmatic this World Cup.
27:10 He's just been straight up truthful.
27:13 And I think under him,
27:15 you do see the green shoots of recovery
27:17 in a way similar to Wales.
27:20 Obviously England a bit more resourced.
27:22 So yeah, I think target those three games.
27:25 And then the question is,
27:26 can you go and give one or both of Ireland or France
27:30 a really good game?
27:32 But again, as to my point earlier,
27:35 these two teams have won two grand slams
27:37 in the past two tournaments.
27:38 So easier said than done.
27:41 The funny thing is with the Six Nations,
27:43 we've seen it in the World Cup quarters
27:44 and semis as well as good teams do have to lose
27:46 at times as well, which is hard to take
27:48 and doesn't really marry up to our narratives
27:51 in sports journalism of good or bad.
27:54 There are sort of shades of in-between
27:55 and perhaps England are just a shade of in-between
27:58 at the moment, but I have far more confidence
28:00 in them sort of stepping up under Borthwick now.
28:04 Obviously they've got coaches coming in
28:05 for the South African setup as well,
28:07 which is going to aid them.
28:08 I think there are attack coaches coming in.
28:10 So definitely want to keep an eye on them.
28:12 And if I was an England fan,
28:13 I would be far more excited
28:14 than I was coming into the World Cup.
28:16 But I think one of the questions would be
28:20 the style of Borthwick.
28:21 Is that going to advance?
28:22 Is it going to stay the same?
28:24 How good can England become within that framework
28:27 with a good, you know, Harry Arundel's
28:29 a very, very exciting winger.
28:31 Are they going to be able to get the ball
28:32 into his hand more in the coming years?
28:34 Marcus Smith's very interesting at fullback
28:36 or if he ends up playing 10 at some point.
28:38 So I feel like there are players there
28:40 in the back line, but as you mentioned,
28:42 it's the forwards and there's a lot of experience
28:44 just to depart.
28:46 I think the one thing England can't afford to do
28:48 is what they've done previously
28:50 is look too far ahead
28:51 and sort of alienate different types of players.
28:54 And then you've ended up with a situation
28:55 where Joe Marler and Dan Cole
28:57 are the best men for the job,
28:58 but they've been sort of out
28:59 in the international wilderness,
29:00 same with Danny Kerr.
29:01 Hopefully now there isn't,
29:03 hopefully now there's somebody more level-headed
29:07 in the coaching box
29:09 that these sorts of situations won't happen.
29:11 And as I say, Borthwick, very pragmatic.
29:13 So hopefully England can pick a team
29:16 going into the Six Nations
29:18 that's there to do something
29:19 and to win that aren't looking ahead.
29:21 'Cause I think if you're an England rugby fan,
29:23 that's what you want.
29:24 You want some success in the short term
29:25 'cause they've been starved of it.
29:27 - Phil, I'm assuming if I offered you
29:31 the Triple Crown in the Calcutta Cup right now,
29:33 you'd take it, correct me if I'm wrong.
29:36 And then obviously, 'cause the great thing about that
29:38 is the way the pictures line up,
29:39 it gives you, you would then,
29:41 unless you somehow lose to Italy,
29:43 you'd be playing for the Grand Slam
29:44 and at the start of the last game.
29:46 But for me, it looks like this Six Nations,
29:49 well, first of all,
29:50 what is success for England at this tournament?
29:54 But the way the fixtures line up,
29:55 you'll be expected to win in Rome on the first weekend.
29:58 Anything other than that will be a disaster.
30:01 You'll be expected to beat Wales at Twickenham.
30:04 That will be a harder test.
30:06 And then in round three,
30:08 you've got that trip to Murrayfield for the Calcutta Cup.
30:10 And that feels like that would be the launching pad
30:14 to more success.
30:16 'Cause if you win that,
30:17 then suddenly you're looking down the barrel
30:18 of a Grand Slam.
30:19 - Yeah, 100%.
30:22 And as we know, international rugby does funny things.
30:25 And the Six Nations in particular,
30:27 you get off to a bad start,
30:29 even if you win, but don't play well.
30:31 The vultures will be circling.
30:33 It's really interesting how Steve Borthwick's
30:35 kind of rating, approval rating has gone up and down
30:39 over the last 12 months.
30:40 It's incredible.
30:42 But I mean, I completely agree with what James was saying,
30:45 that Steve Borthwick is the anti-Eddie Jones.
30:48 He's not about smoke and mirrors.
30:51 He's not about tricks.
30:52 He's not about trying to trick players
30:54 into betraying themselves.
30:56 He's an honest guy.
30:57 He's got the team playing for the shirt.
30:59 He's put a bit of pride back into the shirt.
31:01 Yes, he hasn't got the finished article yet,
31:04 but like you say, the tournament's gonna build nicely.
31:06 I definitely think they have to win more games,
31:09 but then putting in performances
31:10 against the likes of Ireland and France,
31:12 and hopefully keeping 15 men on the pitch,
31:14 rather than just waiting till we go down to 14 and 13
31:17 before we suddenly decide to start play.
31:19 That for me is a step up.
31:20 So win more games, better performance, stepping stone.
31:24 - Well, just finally to end the show, lads,
31:28 just for a little bit of fun,
31:29 I thought it would be interesting
31:30 if we each picked our own player of the tournament.
31:34 So look, I mean, I'd say there's a chance
31:38 if I asked you now and I said three to one go
31:40 that we would all probably come out with the same player,
31:43 but let's maybe just have a go.
31:45 I'm gonna come to you, Phil, first,
31:47 and I'm gonna give you your chance to explain why,
31:50 or to justify why you think Ben Earl
31:52 was the player of the tournament
31:53 before James and I correct you.
31:54 - Well, I'm going a little bit left field, actually,
31:58 'cause I'm going with my favorite player of the tournament,
32:01 and that's Malvaka.
32:02 I think the way that he performed for France
32:04 was just enormous.
32:06 The way he stepped into some empty shoes
32:09 with Marchand going down,
32:11 but played with a smile on his face.
32:14 And I just love the way he plays.
32:16 He's my sort of player.
32:17 Not perhaps the biggest that you'll see out there,
32:21 but absolutely smashing people,
32:23 performed for the team,
32:25 put that French team on the front foot.
32:27 And yes, they didn't quite get where they wanted to be,
32:30 but I just love watching him play.
32:32 He puts a smile on my face,
32:34 reminds me why I love watching the game so much.
32:37 - James.
32:38 - Yeah, I'm gonna go,
32:41 it's not really left field,
32:43 but it's a back and not a forward,
32:47 and I'm gonna go with André Pollard,
32:49 because I think if it wasn't for his goal kicking,
32:52 then South Africa don't win that tournament.
32:55 But a special shout out for Etzebet
32:57 and all of the South African forward pack, really.
33:00 You could take your pick,
33:02 because all of them contributed in some way
33:04 that resulted in them winning the World Cup.
33:07 - Yeah, and I'm gonna pick a member of the South African pack
33:09 that's a bit of a cop-out.
33:11 Actually, you know what,
33:12 honorable mention to Ardi Savea,
33:14 who for me had an unreal tournament.
33:16 But I just, I think people might disagree with me,
33:19 but my eventual pick,
33:21 just shaded it over Savea for me.
33:24 Etzebet, absolutely huge,
33:26 Oxenche coming on against England
33:29 to effectively win that match for them.
33:31 Pollard's goal kicking, like you say.
33:34 But for me, the star of South Africa this year
33:38 is the former World Player of the Year,
33:40 Pierre-Steph Dutoy.
33:42 Just, again, I think I said this midway
33:44 through the tournament,
33:45 he just, to me, just remains the best back row player
33:47 in the world.
33:48 I think, and you know something, Phil,
33:50 I remember, I can't remember who it was.
33:51 There was, was it maybe Steve Borfwick
33:53 who said that Ben Errol was knocking on the door
33:55 of a World 15?
33:57 Between Steph Dutoy and Savea,
34:01 I'm not sure where he's...
34:03 - Who, whose door he's knocking on.
34:05 - He's at least heard.
34:06 - He's at least heard.
34:07 - It's certainly not knocking on their doors.
34:11 But yeah, for me, Peter...
34:11 - I mean, like I say,
34:13 28 tackles in the World Cup final,
34:15 Peter-Steph was just, you know, a tackling machine.
34:17 And again, just one other mention,
34:19 I think, Diom Faree, I think in that South African team,
34:22 to make his like springbok debut there,
34:24 50 or whatever it was,
34:25 and to come on as, and play as a hooker
34:28 when he doesn't play as a hooker,
34:29 and then Mbunangi goes down after three minutes
34:32 and he has to play the entire...
34:33 I mean, that's just bonkers to be that good.
34:35 I mean, but that springbok side, yeah, phenomenal.
34:38 - Aaron Smith as well, I thought.
34:39 I don't think he could tournament.
34:40 - Gordon Barrett.
34:41 We could go on and on.
34:42 - Yeah, yeah, we could.
34:44 We could.
34:45 - Well, that's all we've got time for.
34:47 That's a wrap on our Rugby World Cup
34:49 Kick and Chase podcast.
34:51 Hopefully we'll be back for the Six Nations next year.
34:53 Until then, thanks very much for watching.
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