'Most French people don't seem interested' in marching with Jewish community to combat anti-Semitism
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
Transcript
00:00 With us is Jean-Yves Camus, director of the Observatory of Radical Politics at the Jean
00:04 Jaurès Foundation think tank.
00:06 Thank you for speaking with us here on France 24.
00:07 It's a pleasure.
00:09 First of all, the number of anti-Semitic acts we've seen in France, is this par for the
00:15 course every time the Middle East erupts, or is it worse this time around?
00:19 Well, as of yesterday, the authorities recorded 1,000, sorry, and 40 anti-Semitic incidents
00:29 since October the 7th.
00:31 This is obviously very much when compared to 2022, and we have to remind that the worst
00:40 year since the second Indefather was 2004, with 954 incidents.
00:48 So for the whole year?
00:50 For the whole year, yes.
00:51 And this is now 1,001 months.
00:53 Since October the 7th, which means that by the end of the year, if things do not get
00:59 better, we will have surpassed the number of incidents.
01:03 How do you explain this?
01:04 Well, it has a relation with the Middle East situation, of course, but when you look at
01:10 the statistics since the second Indefather, that's 2000, you see that every time there
01:16 is a confrontation in the Middle East between Israel and its neighbors, the number of incidents
01:21 does rise.
01:23 But even in those times where nothing really serious happens in the Middle East, we have
01:30 at least 350 to 400 incidents a year, which is very much worse when compared with the
01:38 1990s, as if I remember well.
01:42 In 1989, there were 89 incidents.
01:46 All right.
01:47 And it's spiking, but why is it spiking so much more?
01:52 Why is it spiking?
01:53 First of all, because of social networks.
01:56 Before the start of the second Indefather, there was hardly something like Twitter, NoEx,
02:03 and hardly Instagram or any kind of social networks.
02:08 So the statistics do include those kind of abuse you see on social media.
02:15 That's the reason why.
02:16 The second reason is that we have to say people do complain nowadays when some 10, 20 years
02:26 ago the victims said, OK, it's not worth going reporting to the police station because anyway
02:33 there won't be any action taken.
02:35 So in the statistics, you also have this welcome situation with the victims really taking care
02:45 and reporting the incident.
02:46 Because everybody's reported that there's this great return of anti-Semitism to Europe.
02:51 This is something you follow day to day, Jean-Yves Camus.
02:53 Is it true?
02:54 It's partly true, but once again in 2004 when the war in Iraq broke out and we had this
03:03 legislation passed on wearing the headscarf in schools, the situation was at least as
03:12 bad.
03:13 We're in the company of Robert Parsons, our Chief International Affairs.
03:16 We're waiting on a speech by the UN Secretary General.
03:19 It's the whole world, right?
03:21 They look at the Middle East and they project.
03:23 They project on what's happening in their own country.
03:29 Interesting what you said about social media.
03:31 Are people more unfiltered than they used to be?
03:33 Now I can say whatever I want.
03:36 Yes, I think so.
03:38 And some media basically do not play the game of, I would say, restraining access to those
03:45 who really have a record of being anti-Semitic.
03:48 Are you talking about 24-hour news channels?
03:50 Are you talking about some of the 24-hour news channels where the talk shows?
03:55 No, basically I won't give any name, but we have a major social network which does not
04:04 make any moderation of the content.
04:07 And it looks like, of course, for example, if a Frenchman says something on this or that
04:15 social media, he cannot be sued for that because basically the social network is ruled by American
04:23 law, American legislation, and so basically the action will not follow.
04:29 It seems to be tearing apart the left more than the right, what's going on in the Middle
04:34 East.
04:35 And we've seen it as well over in the UK, where the Labour Party is having big problems.
04:40 But here in France, there was this call by the head of the Socialist Party this weekend
04:45 to have a march against anti-Semitism, to even include the far right in that march.
04:52 But then the call was partially retracted.
04:54 Well, basically, this is my personal opinion.
04:58 We have had many marches since Ilhan Alimi, a young Jewish Frenchman, was murdered in
05:05 2006.
05:07 We have had marches, and this amounted to nothing.
05:10 Basically, I must say, I am Jewish, and I attended most of those marches.
05:16 What we see is that the Jewish community is showing up, and the political party's leadership
05:21 is also showing up.
05:24 And to my dismay, most of the French people do not seem to be interested in joining the
05:33 Jewish community in such a march.
05:34 Stay with us, Jean-Yves Kemmy, because we're going to cross over to the United Nations
05:38 in New York.
05:40 The intensifying conflict is shaking the world, rattling the region, and most tragically destroying
05:47 so many innocent lives.
05:51 Recent operations by the Israel Defense Forces and continued bombardment are hitting civilians,
05:57 hospitals, refugee camps, mosques, church, and UN facilities, including shelters.
06:05 No one is safe.
06:08 At the same time, Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields and continue
06:14 to launch rockets indiscriminately towards Israel.
06:18 I reiterate my utter condemnation of the abhorrent acts of terror perpetrated by Hamas on 7 October,
06:26 and repeat my call for the immediate, unconditional, and safe release of hostages held in Gaza.
06:34 Nothing can justify the deliberate torture, killing, injuring, and kidnapping of civilians.
06:43 The protection of civilians must be paramount.
06:48 I am deeply concerned about clear violations of international humanitarian law that we
06:52 are witnessing.
06:55 Let me be clear.
06:56 No party to an armed conflict is above international humanitarian law.
07:02 Ladies and gentlemen of the press, Gaza is becoming a graveyard for children.
07:09 Hundreds of girls and boys are reportedly being killed or injured every day.
07:15 More journalists have reportedly been killed over a four-week period than in any conflict
07:21 in at least three decades.
07:24 More United Nations aid workers have been killed than in any comparable period in the
07:29 history of our organization.
07:32 I salute all those who continue their life-saving work despite the overwhelming challenges and
07:39 risks.
07:41 And the unfolding catastrophe makes the need for a humanitarian ceasefire more urgent with
07:48 every passing hour.
07:51 The parties to the conflict, and indeed the international community, face an immediate
07:56 and fundamental responsibility to stop the inhuman collective suffering and dramatically
08:03 expand humanitarian aid to Gaza.
08:06 Today, the United Nations and our partners are launching a $1.2 billion humanitarian
08:14 appeal to help 2.7 million people – that's the entire population of the Gaza Strip – and
08:21 half a million Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
08:27 Some life-saving aid is getting into Gaza from Egypt through the Rafah crossing.
08:33 But the trickle of assistance does not meet the ocean of need.
08:39 And let's be clear, the Rafah crossing alone does not have the capacity to process eight
08:44 trucks at the scale required.
08:48 Just over 400 trucks have crossed into Gaza over the past two weeks, compared with 500
08:54 a day before the conflict.
08:57 And crucially, this does not include fuel.
09:02 Without fuel, newborn babies in incubators and patients on life support will die.
09:08 Water cannot be pumped or purified.
09:11 Raw sewage could soon start gushing onto the streets, further spreading disease.
09:17 Trucks loaded with critical relief will be stranded.
09:22 The way forward is clear.
09:25 A humanitarian ceasefire now.
09:28 All parties respecting all their obligations under international humanitarian law now.
09:35 This means the unconditional release of the hostages in Gaza now.
09:40 The protection of civilians, hospitals, UN facilities, shelters and schools now.
09:47 More food, more water, more medicine, and of course fuel, entering Gaza safely, swiftly
09:52 and at the scale needed now.
09:56 Confederate access to deliver supplies to all people in need in Gaza now.
10:01 And the end of the use of civilians as human shields now.
10:06 None of these appeals should be conditional on the others.
10:10 And for all of these, we need more funding now.
10:15 In addition, I remain gravely concerned about rising violence and an expansion of the conflict.
10:22 The occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is at a boiling point.
10:27 Let us also not forget the importance of addressing the risks of the conflict spilling over to
10:32 the wider region.
10:34 We are already witnessing a spiral of escalation from Lebanon and Syria to Iraq and Yemen.
10:41 That escalation must stop.
10:44 Cool heads and diplomatic efforts must prevail.
10:48 Hateful rhetoric and provocative actions must cease.
10:54 I am deeply troubled by the rise in anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry.
11:00 Jewish and Muslim communities in many parts of the world are on high alert, fearing for
11:05 their personal safety and security.
11:09 Emotions are at a fever pitch.
11:12 Tensions are running high.
11:15 And the images of suffering are heartbreaking and soul-crushing.
11:21 But we must find a way to hold on to our common humanity.
11:26 I think of civilians in Gaza, the vast majority women and children, terrified by the relentless
11:32 bombardment.
11:35 I joined the UN family in mourning 89 of our UNRWA colleagues who have been killed in Gaza,
11:42 many of them together with members of their family.
11:47 They include teachers, school principals, doctors, engineers, guards, support staff,
11:53 and a young woman named Mai.
11:57 Mai did not let her muscular dystrophy or her wheelchair confine her dreams.
12:04 She was a top student, became a software developer, and devoted her skills to working on information
12:10 technology for UNRWA.
12:13 I am so deeply inspired by her example.
12:18 And I think of all those tortured and killed in Israel nearly one month ago, and the hostages
12:26 abducted from their homes, their families, their friends, while simply living their lives.
12:31 Ten days ago, I met with some of the family members of those hostages.
12:38 I heard their stories, felt their anguish, and was deeply moved by their compassion.
12:45 I will never relent in working for their immediate release.
12:49 This is essential in itself and central to solving many other challenges.
12:57 One mother movingly shared with me her desolation over her abducted son, Ersh.
13:06 She also spoke outside the Security Council.
13:09 And on the subject of confronting hatred, she said, and I quote, "When you only get
13:14 outraged when one side's babies are killed, then your moral compass is broken and your
13:21 humanity is broken."
13:25 Even in her utter despair, she stood before the world and reminded us, and I quote, "In
13:31 the competition of pain, there is never a winner."
13:38 We must act now to find a way out of this brutal, awful, agonizing, dead end of destruction.
13:45 To help end the pain and suffering.
13:48 To help heal the broken.
13:51 And to help pave the way to peace, to a two-state solution with Israelis and Palestinians living
13:59 in peace and security.
14:01 Thank you.
14:02 Thank you very much, sir.
14:03 Thank you.
14:04 Bye.
14:05 Do we need a second border crossing?
14:06 Secretary General?
14:07 The UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, reiterating on the eve of the one-month anniversary
14:16 of Hamas' rampage and the ensuing invasion of Gaza by Israel, saying, denouncing Hamas,
14:24 using civilians as human shields, calling for the release of hostages, and also deeply
14:28 concerned about violations of international humanitarian law.
14:34 "Gaza has become a graveyard for children," says Antonio Guterres.
14:39 With us, we're in the company of Jean-Yves Camus of the Jean Jaurès Foundation think
14:43 tank and our chief international affairs editor, Robert Parsons.
14:46 Rob, the UN Secretary General's appeal, he talked about a fund drive to help Gaza.
14:57 And he also, once again, it was a balancing act for him in that message he's putting out
15:02 on the eve of this one-month anniversary.
15:03 Yeah.
15:04 I mean, he was careful this time not to be too critical of the Israelis.
15:08 He didn't, for instance, use the expression "collective punishment," which he has in the
15:12 past when talking about what the Israelis are doing in Gaza.
15:17 But it was a heartfelt expression of a position we know he holds, and he's expressed on many
15:22 occasions over the past three weeks or so.
15:27 But it comes back to the same problem again.
15:30 He recognizes, as do many people, that Israel has a right to be outraged for what happened
15:36 on the 7th of October, has a right as a state to respond to an attack on its territory,
15:41 but has no real explanation about how Israel should go about doing that.
15:47 The problem that Israel faces and that human rights organizations around the world struggle
15:54 to acknowledge is how do they defeat Hamas?
15:57 How do they make Hamas pay for what it did on October the 7th?
16:01 Israel's answer to that is clear enough.
16:03 They are going to uproot Hamas from Gaza and destroy it so it can never be a force in the
16:11 Gaza Strip again.
16:12 But how do you do that when Hamas is so mixed up in the local community, so mixed up, it's
16:20 almost inseparable from it?
16:21 So how do you get rid of Hamas militarily without destroying the lives of hundreds of
16:27 thousands of people who live there at the same time?
16:30 That is the dilemma that really nobody has successfully come up with an answer for, including
16:34 Guterres in that speech just now.
16:39 One can understand his anguish, which is shared by millions of people around the world, but
16:46 he doesn't really address Israel's anguish either, but how they deal with a problem like
16:51 that of Hamas.
16:52 He also talked about 89 UNRWA colleagues who have been killed.
16:58 UNRWA is the United Nations agency for Gaza refugees and which operates schools in the
17:09 Gaza Strip.
17:10 Yeah, and 88 of their staff killed over the last three weeks.
17:13 It's unimaginable.
17:14 You know, he mentioned the number of journalists killed in Gaza as well, a record over the
17:19 last three decades.
17:22 The suffering of ordinary people is appalling.
17:27 There is no fuel getting in.
17:29 It's unconscionable.
17:30 You know, the interesting thing about listening to me, listening to Guterres, is if you compare
17:33 him with, say, Antony Blinken, the US Secretary of State, there's actually very little between
17:38 them in their positions.
17:40 The difference is about what the next step would be.
17:44 Antony Blinken's position is that the United States will support Israel imposing a ceasefire
17:49 now while absolutely understandable, only serves the interests of Hamas.
17:57 Whereas the United States is calling for humanitarian pauses.
18:00 It's not just, it sounds like a semantic difference.
18:03 It's not really.
18:04 No, we'll be talking about that difference in the France 24 debate between that call,
18:10 that blunt call for a humanitarian ceasefire and the one for humanitarian pauses.
18:14 Jean-Yves Camus, you heard Robert Parsons there talking about how the UN Secretary General
18:18 has honed his messaging in the month since October the 7th.
18:22 The same can be said of the French president.
18:25 France this week is going to be hosting a conference to raise funds, and that is partly
18:29 due to a domestic calculus where we've seen, again, what we were talking about earlier,
18:34 the impact on this country and how it's torn apart the French, this story.
18:39 Well, the impact on this country is huge.
18:42 But as you said a few minutes ago, it's mostly a concern for the French left.
18:49 The French conservatives do agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, including by
18:57 uprooting Hamas from the Gaza Strip.
19:00 The left is divided on the issue.
19:03 Part of the Socialist Party says that, obviously, Israel has a right to destroy what they call
19:13 a terrorist Islamic radical organization.
19:19 But you have to remember that the Socialist Party entered some kind of a-- it's not a
19:23 coalition.
19:24 It's some kind of a parliamentary agreement with the radical left, Mélenchon's radical
19:29 left, which is very much in support of-- well, not saying that Hamas is a terrorist movement.
19:36 They call it a resistance movement, which is certainly, in my opinion, not true.
19:42 And as a result, there's a big difficulty in making those two segments of the French
19:48 left reach an agreement on what really Hamas is and what is acceptable from Israel.
19:55 And we saw on the Monday that followed the Hamas attack, a big rally near the Eiffel
20:01 Tower where the far right was represented.
20:03 Marine Le Pen has been outspoken in her defense of Israel's right to defend itself.
20:12 Is it or is it not a break with her father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who used to run what was
20:17 then called the National Front?
20:19 He was always-- he made anti-Semitic remarks a lot, but he was always pro-Israel.
20:24 Well, to some extent.
20:27 You have to remember that Le Pen, Sr. was a soldier in 1956 during the military operation
20:34 in Egypt.
20:36 And he stood very much on the side of Israel, in fact, at that time, in the 1960s and part
20:45 of the '70s.
20:46 But he spoiled this kind of support for Israel by making anti-Semitic remarks that really
20:51 were so bad that no attendance of party officials was acceptable to the Jewish community.
21:01 So that is--
21:02 Is the daughter the same as the father?
21:04 Oh, no.
21:05 No.
21:06 Marine Le Pen, that's my belief, is not anti-Semitic.
21:10 She's not an Holocaust denier.
21:13 You have to understand her attendance, at least the attendance of her party in this
21:20 demonstration, in terms of internal politics.
21:24 The core of the program of the party is fighting the Islamist movement here in France.
21:33 So Israel appears to be, I would say, an ally, some kind of a spearhead of the West in the
21:39 Middle East.
21:40 And that's why Marine Le Pen says, my party is a shield for the Jewish community.
21:45 And maybe the only way the Jewish community can protect itself from Islamic violence,
21:51 which in my opinion is not true.
21:53 But there is a big change in the party's policy from the time of Jean-Marie Le Pen to what
21:59 Marine Le Pen says today.
22:01 And is there a lot of political traction to begin from?
22:04 You just said that most of France's political spectrum is squarely behind Israel.
22:12 It's divided.
22:13 What is most interesting is to look at the surveys showing that the majority of the French
22:21 do understand what Israel did by defending itself against Hamas.
22:28 And I think most of the public opinion in France, when they think about Hamas, they
22:34 think in terms of internal politics.
22:37 Is it a threat to us French people because of terrorist attacks that might happen in
22:45 the future?
22:46 Is Hamas represented in France by some followers, by some political movements?
22:51 And indeed, during the demonstration that took place in Paris on Saturday, you saw a
22:56 lot of people with posters saying that Hamas is a resistance movement, not a terrorist
23:05 one.
23:06 So there is some support for Hamas in part of those demonstrations.
23:11 Jean-Yves Camus, I want to thank you so much for joining us.
23:14 I want to thank as well Robert Parsons from our International Affairs Desk.