Yourcinemafilms.com | Is your script good? Head of scripted at Dare Picture Cassandra Johnson-Bekoe shares how new writers should take their time with their projects and not bouncing from agent to agent throughout their career.
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Check out last week's episode with Caleb Pinkett on producing one of Netflix’s most successful shows ever and navigating the ups and downs of Hollywood here
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Are you ready for the truth?
Check out last week's episode with Caleb Pinkett on producing one of Netflix’s most successful shows ever and navigating the ups and downs of Hollywood here
Listen on:
Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0K6ugRFXfgZ4B3jeWEWQTU
Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-your-cinema-podcast/id1712678244
’Welcome to Your Cinema'
Follow us on socials:
Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms
Instagram: @yourcinemafilms
Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
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FunTranscript
00:00 Now everyone's making it in film and TV, but we don't really know how.
00:05 Here we uncover the truth.
00:07 Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:09 Welcome to another episode of the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:17 We are well on our way.
00:19 Being consistent, I love it.
00:21 Yeah, the podcast is really the place where we explore the truth.
00:26 The truth behind how our guests have made it.
00:29 Because I feel like, and you'll hear me say this a lot,
00:33 literally there's so many people making it now.
00:36 But we don't tend to really see the key steps and the practical things that are happening behind the scenes.
00:44 Whether that's the networking they've done, or the literal craft and the places that they've studied at.
00:51 Or just the long hard slog of being diligent in something for five to ten years.
00:56 So a lot of the times it's a mixture of all of that.
00:59 But yeah, each week we're catching up with amazing leaders, pioneers in the space.
01:05 And this week is no different.
01:08 Our guest, our very special guest, is a writer, entrepreneur, head of scripted development at Dare Pictures.
01:17 She's worked at Warner Brothers, Marvel, Daniel Kaluuya's company, 59%, and so many more.
01:24 She's also the co-founder of Black Women in Scripted, which we were just having a...
01:31 I want to say visceral. I really need to go to the dictionary and just make sure I understand what that word said.
01:37 But I just love the sound of that word.
01:40 Just talking about that visceral moment last year where they took over BBC Studios, which was amazing to see.
01:49 I introduce to you guys all Cassandra Johnson Biko.
01:54 [Mimics the sound of a car horn]
01:56 Hello everybody.
01:58 Thank you. Thank you for joining us today, Cass.
02:02 And thank you for having me, of course.
02:05 Oh, well, you know, it's our pleasure.
02:09 As usual, I'm going to go straight in.
02:12 And I think just even to give like a context to people, right.
02:17 I know I mentioned some things on the intro, but I really just want to go straight in with writing.
02:24 Because like in everything that I've seen from your work and your career, writing's played such a huge part and it's very central.
02:35 So I just wanted to know, how did you start writing?
02:39 Well, I've always been someone who's been very creative with words.
02:44 I think a lot of people know me say that even it comes out in my speech.
02:50 And so obviously I started writing, I think when I was like eight, like properly.
02:56 And we had like so many different exercises.
02:58 And I was that kid at the back of the class who was like tasked with writing like a page on like Rumpelstiltskin.
03:05 And then I'm coming with like an alternative story off the back of that, like, you know, like childhood, you know, the childhood tale.
03:15 So I'd like remixed it and like come up with this whole villain origin story.
03:21 And like I came across it the other day when I went to my mum's because I was looking at this.
03:26 It was like a nine year old kid and I'd drawn little doodles and things, but I'd like written it.
03:31 And it was like a 20 page thing. And it was like a big deal at the time because like obviously my teacher framed it like, you know, it had it up in the classroom.
03:40 And then in year six when I was leaving, they gave it to me and it was like my greatest achievement.
03:46 And so I've always been like really passionate about characters and story and like world development.
03:54 And as I got older, that sort of became a through line in my life. Like I self-published poems when I was like 13.
04:03 You know, I was always like entering into like rain dance writing competitions and, you know, trying to get my work out there somehow.
04:11 And this is even before I knew that like screenwriting was a thing.
04:16 I always thought, oh, I wanted to be a novelist because, you know, my biggest, I guess, inspiration is Malorie Blackman.
04:24 So in my mind, I was like, I'm going to be the next Malorie Blackman. You know, this is what all of this is for.
04:31 And then I did my A-level drama exam. And then my teacher was like, you know, part of our A-levels, we had to write our own plays.
04:41 Like taking characters from like, you know, Brett, like plays from Stanislavski and Brett and all of those people and then creating stories about them and like,
04:50 like making like a family unit with these, you know, fiction characters.
04:55 And I had one and then I had to perform it because at the time, you know, I thought I could be an actor.
05:01 So I was like performing it, what I wrote. And I was like, I'm going to do this for a living. What's it called?
05:06 And my teacher was like, yeah, you could be a screenwriter. And I was like, oh. And so that was like from like age eight to 18 of like writing and then figuring out, oh, I could be a screenwriter.
05:19 And that's truly when I started going to film courses and then, you know, went to uni for film and TV production and then obviously dropped out after a year,
05:30 but then found my way to film school. But even at film school, I studied screenwriting. So, yeah, I guess writing's always been in like in me.
05:41 You know what? I love that. I love that. Like, yeah, like obviously you're you're completely right.
05:46 Like writing is definitely been been in you if you were, you know, plotting out all the different plot points to rumple stilt skin.
05:56 So I wanted to even for further context, right. Could you could you just share some of the projects that that you've worked on?
06:04 Because it's not a joke. It's not. It's just not.
06:08 Well, I mean, I've been quite fortunate that I haven't yet had my own project as a writer.
06:13 But I thankfully signed with Curtis Brown in 2021. So I'm signed to them.
06:23 In terms of like script editing, which I always feel goes hand in hand for me, you know, my very first foray into production script editing was with Ted Lasso season two, which was an amazing experience.
06:38 And like that was the first sort of team I worked in that allowed me to sort of marry the two sides of myself in terms of the writer side and my script editing side, because up until that point, all the advice in the industry was like, keep it separate.
06:55 Don't mention that you're interested in writing because you won't get as many roles in development or even like production because you'll make people feel nervous.
07:04 But then I when I started on Ted Lasso script coordinator, or see the team, the writing team are mostly Americans apart from me and Brett Goldstein, who's British, and their approach is more fluid.
07:18 And so every it's like more of a collaborative process, right. And so even in like season two, obviously there's the episode of the Ghanian billionaire, like obviously had to come into some Ghana, so I had to, you know, come into the room and you know we were talking and I was just like pitching like things like, oh, you know, he could be in tech or he could work in oil, and like, you know, they were like what sort of typical Ghanian names and I was like, well my brother's name is Edwin, and my dad's name is Francis.
07:47 We're like we're going to go with that. And then that's the name of Sam Richardson's character, you know, and then I had to be like you know Ghana versus Nigeria is a real thing.
07:57 So we have to put that in the script because in the episode, it's a Ghanian man trying to buy a Nigerian footballer, and I'll just say we need to make it make sense, you know, because like the wider population is going to be expecting like that sort of humor.
08:12 And so they were like, yeah, like, tell us like you know what's going on and it was really great and you know my, my colleague at Times, Sasha Garan, she wrote the episode, and she was brilliant at writing it and it was just a fantastic experience.
08:25 So from then onwards, it's all just like expanded.
08:29 And then I worked, like literally moved across to Marvel, worked on Secret Invasion.
08:36 And it was the same sort of process because again it was an American team. Right. So I think my very first full length British production only came I guess last year April, when I, you know, was signed on to script edit for Chemistry of Death on Paramount Plus.
08:55 So that was my like, you know, first British production, and I was really grateful to basically be able to have a combination of the two, and like, realize that oh we have really different ways of working, but the outcome is still great, you know, it's really interesting, I thought.
09:11 I love this. I love this. Now, you've uncovered something right that I would love to understand and have more clarity on.
09:21 What is, what, what would you say is the difference between being a script editor and being on the other side where you're, you're writing?
09:31 I would say, I mean, this is, of course, only my explanation so please don't.
09:36 And also, and to add to that, right, what, what, that, that advice that you got about, oh, don't tell people that you're interested in writing, like, why is that, why is that a thing, which it sounds like is more mainly like a British perspective.
09:53 So yeah, the differences and then why is that an issue?
09:56 Yeah, I mean, I guess my explanation of script editing is like you're sort of like the backseat passenger to the writer, isn't it? Like you're the one that's guiding them.
10:05 They can't, at the moment, see all sides of like the direction they're supposed to be going. So you're the one that's sort of steering them into, like, the best possible versions of themselves, because I always find that, like, script editing isn't about the script editor's ego
10:20 or like, you know, trying to enforce the storylines that the script editor necessarily thinks, oh, this should happen. But it's more about making a conversation with the writer and allowing them to, like, that sort of to and fro.
10:35 And I find it like, it's like a form of creative brainstorming, but a more, I would guess, I would guess, intimate version because, you know, a writer and a script editor is like you guys are a duo through and through.
10:49 So I always say to writers that make sure the script editor you work with, like, understands your overall voice and not just the show they signed on to work for, because then you have like inconsistencies of the script.
11:04 And it's quite obvious, you know, where I'll watch something now and be like, I would have scripted this differently. You know, you can sort of tell where a scene's gone on for too long or the characters are speaking in unnatural dialogue.
11:18 It's like, it's not quite right.
11:21 Yeah, that's what I cast the script editor in. I guess with the writer you're sort of, you are the driver. So it's like all the ideas are your own, like when you pitch to a channel, sorry not a channel, I'm saying a production company, when you pitch to a production company, and you've got all these ideas, you have to be really secure in what you're pitching and really understand the story you're trying to tell.
11:46 And it sounds really obvious to say this, but I've had writers pitch to me.
11:51 And then I'll say okay let's talk again in a month, and then suddenly the story they're telling me a month later is slightly different verbally from how we spoke about it the first month.
12:01 So I'd have to, I have to be the one that's like referring them like, oh no you said this character would be doing this and they'll be like, oh yeah, I did say that and that's how you can tell when a writer hasn't fully absorbed what they're writing, they're just writing, you know.
12:15 Obviously, of course there are sometimes forgetfulness, we're all humans, but there is a difference, I think between forgetfulness and not knowing your story.
12:25 Wow.
12:28 Yeah, I think my very first script that I let someone read, now I wouldn't let someone read that script, as an example, maybe like you know aware of myself.
12:42 I sent a script out to a very high profile writer who was so lovely and gave me her time, Abby Morgan, and she gave me her time and read my very first script, and I read that script, as I am today.
12:56 And I was just like, I can't believe Abby read this because in this industry they only read something once, you know, people say oh yeah you can send it to me again but they'll come back to you in 2025, you know what I mean.
13:11 So for me, that was a learning curve of realising that because I try, you know, trying to get into Gage again it's just not going to happen. She's too busy, and rightfully so.
13:23 I guess, I mean, is that, have I answered your question at all?
13:26 Yes, and more.
13:28 And I guess you were talking about the issue in terms of the separation.
13:32 So if you look at like everything out of outline, this is where the issue comes in, right, because I don't blame a lot of production companies, some people just want you to do the job you're hired for.
13:44 They don't want you to come in and use it as a springboard to further your own ambition, because obviously like in this industry and actually all industries, whatever company you're working for, like, what the company's vision is the priority.
14:02 It's not, it's not, you know, we make ourselves seem like seen and heard, but you are working for a company.
14:11 And so from that aspect I understand, but it shouldn't be as black and white as it is.
14:17 And the only, I think the only time I realised that there is a way for this to have work for me is I went to the script editors forum that Sky runs sometimes.
14:29 I was in the script editor's forum, which is a forum that's held in Manchester.
14:42 And I listened to Jerome Buchanan Nelson speak, because obviously he came from continuing drama series, the script editor, was like working on Bulletproof at the time, and he was talking about like, you know, wanting to be both and like how he figured out a way to do it.
14:52 And he was like, you know, like, you're not wasting your time when to sort of like reveal this side of yourself. And he really inspired me. And from then onwards, I sort of started plotting.
15:01 Okay, so how am I going to make this work? It's working for everyone else. So I need to get my time.
15:13 I love that. I love that. And it's paid off. And it's paid off. I'm paying. I'm paying off.
15:19 I mean, I mean, yes and no, I'll be very honest, like, obviously, it's a struggle of the industries, like, you get so focused on like getting an agent, and I think most new writers are very focused on the agent, right?
15:34 And I think, you know, you have to also take time to really hone your craft. And I've been very fortunate to have some, like, two really great agents that have like, you know, worked with me for the past two years, and have allowed me that space to develop as a writer and to continue, you know, redrafting and writing and then sending things out and then getting the feedback, you know, back and they, you know, give me notes, right, on my script whenever they read it.
16:03 You know, and honestly, I'm really grateful to Sam and Nish for doing that, because not all agents are like that. And that's not a sight. It's just about capacity, I guess. But I, you know, my time is coming. So watch this, you know.
16:19 We're watching, we're watching.
16:36 So, you know, you've got a lot of established organisations, right? How did you end up at DARE Pictures? Which is definitely, it's not a step down at all. I mean, being head of scripted is a huge, huge thing in itself. But yeah, how did that happen?
16:54 I was introduced to Darren Ilford through like a mutual friend of ours. And, you know, I'm really grateful to that friend, actually, because what me and Darren have now gone on to create together in terms of the scripted arm of DARE is really impactful.
17:11 And, you know, Darren's also like my mentor. Like I met Darren last year, because I was really, really keen to hone what I call the second level of my development, which is my business skills. And Darren has his own, you know, Darren's like an institution, I feel.
17:32 He's a founding father of Radio One Extra, has worked over 20 years in journalism. So to be working with Darren and, you know, all these years of experience, I just felt like it was like just the right time. And obviously my time at 59% had come to a natural conclusion.
17:52 And obviously, this opportunity came at the right time. And I'm really grateful for it. And this also has allowed me to continue that work that we were talking about before with new writers.
18:06 And I'm really grateful for that, because now I'm in this position, so I can, you know, pay it forward to everyone who's ever given me a chance. And now I can, you know, do the same and, you know, bring more people up. I'm still learning on the job, and it's the added benefit of having a mentor, you know, be the CEO of a company.
18:27 And I think that's what's so great about being in the business and the company, we all feel this sort of really nurturing and warm air. And it's like, I guess, one of the very few places I've worked, that's allowed my creative juices to really flow, because we've been given that space to not run ourselves into the ground, you know.
18:47 And it's like, it's the right, you know, time for me to enter into a role like this. And I was just fortunate that it was like under Darren's tutelage, really.
18:58 I love that. I love that. One thing that I also noticed as well, right, Cass, is that you've got this arm and this thread that I noticed, right, where there seems to be in a lot of different places and projects that you've worked on, there's like this liking that you have for like new talent or developing it.
19:25 Why do you think that is?
19:28 I think it's because I came through the industry, like, you know, through the Mummy Youth Project.
19:34 And what you learn during that, you know, your time at Mummy Youth is so invaluable. And I think at the time, you sort of think of it as near future values.
19:45 But actually what Mummy Youth instills in you is like for the future as well, like it's in the far distant future. And, you know, I've now worked in industry for seven years, and I'm starting to realise that the only way for this industry to continue thriving is for those of us that are ascending, not to close the door behind us.
20:06 Because, like, there's space for everyone. I mean, that's part of what motivated us to co-found, you know, Black, Women and Scripted, is to allow people a space and a hub to congregate and feel seen and heard.
20:22 And I was fortunate to have that at Mummy Youth.
20:25 And now have that sort of community feeling is very much in my bones now.
20:32 And so I've always wanted to continue that thread. And so that's what you're basically traced is that, I guess, want for new voices to know that there are people out there that are actually going to help you and aren't going to make you get out of your house at 9am to meet them in Soho for a coffee,
20:53 and then the ghost you afterwards, you know, is real key.
20:59 If you're going to meet someone, like, ask them, do you have the financial means for this? Because I've been in that position where I had to use my last £10, like at the start of my career to go to Elstree, because I was called for a general.
21:27 And then in my naive mind, I thought, oh, this means I'm going to get to be the writer for EastEnders. No, I did not.
21:34 It was just like, oh, you know, it's like, oh, this is a set tour. And I was like, oh, oh.
21:44 Yeah. So this is this is this is also what I remember. Right. Because, you know, if you felt that pain, then you know not to do it to other people.
21:57 Beautiful. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. Given. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I hear I hear that. And I think I love I love the way you put that right, because so many creatives will understand what that scenario that you just said.
22:16 And it's that mixture of being hungry and willing to do what it takes to, you know, just further your career and, you know, make those connections.
22:28 And, you know, sometimes, you know, you meet people for life and sometimes you meet people that you you know, you don't really have a connection with. It's trial and error.
22:38 Yeah. But then there's a reality of like, well, I can't be doing that three or four times a week all the time, you know, like even the reason why what you said is so amazing is because people know what it is when there's a meeting at 10 o'clock and you have to you have to travel across London at peak time.
23:03 Yes. Oh, gosh. Whoo. Yeah. I mean, I mean, like I said, I'm from Shredham. So I was sat on a Thameslink, you know, all the way to Elstree.
23:15 Yeah, that's like, that's like far.
23:19 It's like literally south to like north, north, north, north, you know.
23:24 Is that probably like zone six?
23:27 Yeah, because it's boring woods. Yeah, so it's like half a city, you see, it's far. But it's one of those things where I guess also being in this position also now helps because I when I'm speaking to people now, I'm very upfront with them with like what capacity I have, or what we can and can't do so that it's like kind of leave the autonomy for people to make that decision if they still want to talk because I'm always happy to talk.
23:55 I don't want like someone to talk to me and like feel that, you know, something was promised that I wasn't probably aware of because it happens.
24:03 It's really easy to have like miscommunications happen all the time. So I've always just been a very blunt and honest person and I'll just always keep it 100.
24:13 No, thank you. Thank you, Cass. Amazing. Amazing.
24:16 So right, given that like you've got this penchant for, yeah, I like that word as well, for new writers, right, as well as like all the amazing people that you work with, what are like some of the key common mistakes that you feel like new writers tend to make?
24:38 I think I mentioned one earlier, which is like sending out your work before it's entirely ready. I think, I think I feel like it's really unfortunate for new writers because there's like this hidden pressure, like despite yourself you try and avoid it, but there's this like sort of pressure that like all writers put themselves at the very beginning of that like, oh, I need my script to go in the next year.
25:04 So I'm just going to be sending it out. I'm going to send it out and send it out. And that works if the script is good, which no shade, I'm not saying, you know, every writer has put a lot of hard work into their work.
25:17 So I always remember that. But is the script good? Like just like business level, is it good? And nine times out of 10, they're not because you can see it's been rushed.
25:28 And it's been just like, oh, I just need this producer to read it. You learn very early on in BBC Writers Room when the script is good or isn't. And that's what that logic, I've applied it throughout. So that's the first thing I would say, make sure your script is actually ready.
25:46 Are you actually ready for an agent? Because that's another thing that I keep hearing or like someone will ask me, like, how did you get your agent? How do you get an agent? And it seems like write a script, then get an agent. That's literally the steps that seems to be the kit, like, you know, in the industry, that's what people feel like is the actual steps.
26:07 But it's not, it's like, I would say it's, you know, write your script, leave it, go and do some other developmental projects where it's like, maybe like collaborating with a friend on a script or, you know, applying to these short film funds and turning in like the script into a proof of concept and actually seeing if this can work.
26:33 If funds are an issue of that, you can always ask people to read, like, more and more writers need to ask people to read their scripts before it like reaches my desk, for example.
26:46 And just like, when you meet with an agent, is this agent right for your tone of voice? Because the amount of writers I've seen over the years who are just like in and out of agents or like, you know, and there's valid reasons, of course, but it's oftentimes it's like, oh, my agent just didn't understand my voice and I just didn't think they were putting me up for the right job.
27:13 So, you know, I'm moving. And it's like a job, isn't it? Like if you apply for a job in like, let's say corporate world, you've worked there for six months and then you go for another corporate gig, you know, it's not looking a bit, it's not looking too good, is it?
27:29 So same with like agents, it's like, unless there's an absolute valid reason, which is, you know, between you and your God, but if the reason actually is that, oh, they didn't understand my voice and you've only been there six months, the other agent is going to be thinking, well, how long are you going to give me before you jump ship again?
27:49 And in that time, how much money are you going to make me for me to even sign you? So where you got a clean slate with the first agent who signed you on just your talent and your raw ability to write, now a second agent is going to be looking at your marketability and how long before you jump ship.
28:05 So now you've got two strikes against you before they get to your talent and your voice. And in some cases, reading that script and then thinking that it's not that deep. Bye. See?
28:23 Yes, my final point, you know, I'm trying to keep it to three points because we could talk all day about, you know, writing tips, but I think my final main point is, don't be afraid to engage a script editor by yourself.
28:37 I know, like, there's loads of people I know, like, a lot of my work has come from, like, my friends in the industry setting aside time and just giving me industry type notes.
28:50 So now that's how my writing has evolved is like having these people who are trained in this, you know, writing trade or editorial trade of like script editing or are development producers or are head of self development who understand things at like a really
29:06 high level have now read my script. So I know these notes are relevant to the climate of the industry now. And so if I don't agree with it, that means I haven't really understood the assignment with my work. Right?
29:21 So obviously you take all notes with a pinch of salt. But chances are, if you are a new writer and the person who's reading your script is an exec producer at BBC Studios, you know, whole time, Maddie, that person knows what they're talking about.
29:37 So what, you know, because your career hasn't gone anywhere.
29:42 You know, let's keep it real, like you haven't gone anywhere yet. And this exec producer who has worked and worked and worked probably sees about 50 people's scripts in one week sometimes. That's how much scripts we get in development sometimes.
29:57 And then you're disagreeing with them, and then pitching your script to a producer anyway.
30:05 Set yourself up to further.
30:08 I love that. I love that. I love that because you're, it's, it's amazing. We're in this time of like loads of great stories from like our culture, community, etc.
30:21 People are encouraged to be themselves, you know, authored stories, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there's this, there's this dedication to authenticity, but then
30:32 it seems there's that balance between, yeah, but there is still some beats and craft specific craft points that still can't be missed structurally.
30:43 So yeah, be authentic, but these people know what they're talking about too. So find that balance because I guess.
30:51 Yeah, yeah. It's a balance of like, believing in yourself, which you should always absolutely do. But then also allowing room to grow and room to receive constructive feedback.
31:05 And if someone is giving you their time who works in the industry, considering the climate of the industry and how so many people are at burnout stage because they're working so many hours a week.
31:16 And then they read your script and then they give you feedback. That's someone who's already shown at that level that they already invested enough in you because people can say no, you know.
31:25 So I always remember like if I ask someone to read my scripts, like I always say, oh, thank you so much.
31:31 And I'm always grateful that at least they gave me that time to consider my work or to read it enough to give me like constructive bullet pointed notes.
31:42 That means they've thought about it, you know. So even if it didn't go nowhere or even if some of most of the notes weren't as, I guess, like lording as I'd like.
31:53 Just the fact that someone is like diving into my world and trying to help me make it better.
31:59 That's what motivates me personally as a writer to just like keep honing my craft.
32:05 I love this. This is amazing. This is amazing.
32:09 Do you know what, right? So Cass, like at our Stories Festival a while ago, Ajani, we did a session with Ajani and John Petrie and Tanya Qureshi from BBC Comedy, right?
32:24 And he made a good point that with in the development process of BBC, he had three drafts that he could send them, right?
32:35 The first draft was, wasn't well received. Notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes.
32:44 And his agent was like, look, this can't happen again. The next one has to be fire. Right.
32:50 So what happened was the second draft that I think I believe the exec on Jamie Miles Black saw was the 30th draft.
33:00 So they literally went back and they studied, they studied like, like I think two or three shows that were similar in the style and maybe the tone and the journeys and stuff.
33:14 Like they literally went and just surgeoned the thing.
33:18 Look, we're going to make sure this is what it needs to be. Right.
33:23 I wanted to know, like what your thoughts were on this and whether that's like typical, because I know Ajani, him and Ali, they're craftsmen when it comes to writing.
33:33 So they'll do a hundred drafts if they need to. But just in terms of like, like your perspective and experience, is that typical or?
33:42 I think it depends. I think there's a difference. I think it depends because if if I'm submitting a script to a company, I'm open to like feedback.
33:56 But if they actually say, oh, we would like you to make these tweaks and then send us this draft, and then we'll consider it again.
34:04 It depends how much I want to work with that company, because otherwise I'm not going to do it because I'm not getting paid.
34:13 And I feel like unless you have written before or have a proximity to writers, I think oftentimes people don't realise how, how much it takes out of you to dive back into script and then like make unnatural changes that didn't come from you.
34:29 So I guess in that instance, I wouldn't do loads of drafts. But I guess, I guess with Ajani, because it was the BBC asking him to do the drafts, right?
34:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:40 So with that, it's like the channel. So that's different because I know that if I make these changes, my show is going to be on this channel.
34:49 So I will do it because it's a, it's a forward investment, you see. And I always try and apply things to a business sense.
34:57 So I was like, okay, so this obscure company is asking me to do it, I'm not doing it.
35:03 But, you know, Netflix want me to do like another pass on my 10th draft in order for it to be on Netflix.
35:12 And you see Dreamworlds Black is on BBC, you know.
35:16 It's the thing, you have to think it's like peaks and troughs, isn't it? I guess everybody's writing careers like this anyway.
35:23 It doesn't go up and it doesn't go across, there's always a wave.
35:29 So and also it depends how important that project is to you, because I think with one of my projects, it is a money grabber to the industry.
35:40 I don't know why I did, you know, inverted commas, it is a money grabber.
35:45 And that is my script Guarded, which is literally a semi autobiographical tale of my time as a bouncer, because I was a bouncer for five years of film school.
35:58 So that script has been doing the rounds since 2018.
36:03 And I've redrafted it and it's, you know, it's ready to go again.
36:07 Right. But that's not even a script that came from me, as in like I didn't even come up with the idea like as well.
36:16 It is my idea, it's my life. But in terms of the idea to write it, because I was writing some obscure love stories that no one cared about.
36:25 And I thought this is the script. This is my script. This is the script that Abby Morgan read was a very.
36:31 It was a love story that no one cares about. Right.
36:34 So but that Abby like, you know, facilitated a meeting with Fable Picks and I had a meeting with Hannah there.
36:43 And so she'd read that script. And now I know that is a subpar script. Right.
36:47 But she read it and invited me in for a meeting. And then I knew that there was an interest in the script because the trick was that she said was.
36:56 So I read your script. I'd love to know more about you, though.
37:00 Like your whole journey. Because if someone likes your script, they're going to be talking about it.
37:11 And then I obviously did my typical spiel of, oh, yeah, I used to be a bouncer.
37:16 And I say film school. And she was like, you were a bouncer. And I was like, yeah.
37:21 But I tried. I remember like brushing past that and like going on to the next thing that happened in my life at the time.
37:27 I was like, yeah. And then I did this and I did this and I did this. Right.
37:30 And then, you know, got an email from Hannah a week later and she said, oh, you know, I spoke into Fay, who's in charge of Fable.
37:38 And we would like to explore the bouncer idea. And I was like, a bouncer idea?
37:44 You know, I was like, it's a bouncer idea. And they're like, yeah, you know, because she used to be a bouncer.
37:49 So we'd like to explore that idea. And that's an example of me ending up in this sort of position with a company just by happenstance.
37:58 Just talking about my life. And then, you know, I ended up working with them on Guarded for a year.
38:03 And then like, oh, see, that concluded naturally. And now the rights are back with me.
38:08 But that was like my first foray into writing.
38:13 I'm glad I had it then because that's what really told me that I could do this.
38:20 At the same time, I wish I'd had that opportunity like now because I probably would handle it a bit differently or be a bit more aware of the whole process.
38:33 Yeah. Yeah. Great. That makes sense. Wow. I love that.
38:39 I love that. So what's happening with Guarded now then?
38:45 It's dead.
38:50 I mean, I've curated a mini slate of my projects.
38:57 I followed Quentin Tarantino's like, this is my set amount of projects that I have in me as like the creator and the driving force behind these projects.
39:09 Right. Doesn't mean that I can't hop on other people's work and anything like that. But these are my projects of my heart.
39:15 So Guarded is obviously one of them. And Functional is another one of my scripts that is more of a drama.
39:25 That is, I won't give too much away, but it's about black female experience in this industry.
39:32 Wow. Not from me, but from Tales.
39:37 And I genuinely mean not just from me. I mean, Functional is actually how, for me, how Black Feminist Scripts,
39:45 the nucleus of Black Feminist Scripts came from that script, Functional.
39:49 Because I'd written this script in COVID and was like, I want to write about this, all these experiences I've received from my peers who are Black females in this industry and are like stuck in development assistant jobs for five years and no progression.
40:05 Like have been writing and writing on shows, but no one is green lighting their original material.
40:12 And so I sent my script to Maddy and then we spoke, we spoke about the script and then we spoke beyond the script when I, you know, and then we realized that, oh, there's an actual need for support.
40:24 So it's funny, like my script spanned, you know, and, you know, the idea was already there for like Maddy and Farah anyway.
40:33 My motivation for like co-founding Black Feminist Scripts genuinely came from my experience of speaking to Black females in this industry, writing the script, and then realizing that I don't want to just capitalize on people's trauma.
40:49 I want to be able to help, you know, fix it. So let's do this.
40:54 I love that. Do you know what, that segway is nicely, nicely, nicely perfect even.
41:01 Like, yeah, tell us for those that don't know and have been living under a rock, what is Black Women Inscripted and what do you guys do?
41:12 So Black Women Inscripted is a collective of anyone and everyone that is a Black female that works in scripted.
41:20 And I mean like makeup artists, we have script editors, we have writers, we have producers, but we also have lawyers and we have accountants who work in industry.
41:29 And that visibility of like having all these different roles in like one, because like currently we operate as a WhatsApp group and we also have a LinkedIn and Instagram, but having all those roles, you know, connect to each other is really key because it's bringing visibility
41:45 to the work that Black women are doing in scripted that often gets just reduced to the writers and who's working behind the camera.
41:54 And now, you know, I've had so many people feedback to me that it's like the hub, you know, if you're looking for some inspiration or looking to speak to people who look like you and work in scripted and, you know, because we all have that moment in scripted, no shade, but you work in scripted and you have, am I insane?
42:16 You know, this happened, like, do you know what I mean? Like, is this just me? Is this like, does this happen to everyone? I'll pause for the...
42:25 But yeah, I was like, does this happen to everyone? Is this just me? And like, I feel like a lot of people have told me, having Black women in scripted there, they can speak to people and like figure out healthier ways of dealing with the situation and having that support to come back to at the end of the day and say, hey, this is how it went and someone, like people still care.
42:45 Or like, oh, they have a short film and they're looking for a Black female producer and they're in this group and are exposed to producers of all different kinds of calibres.
42:55 Like, you know, like it's just a brilliant, brilliant group and how it's evolved in the last three years is definitely exceeded like mine, Maddie and Thara's expectations.
43:06 Like, it's really, really, it's really, really grown. We've now got over 350 members. And we're looking at like different initiatives to do.
43:16 We also have done two successful partnerships with like one with Curtis Brown and one with Cassarotto, where, you know, we were like just basically matchmaking new writers with agents.
43:27 And off the back of it, three of our writers have been signed from those initiatives, which is a really great percentage considering how hard it is right now, you know.
43:37 And then obviously the mixer happened last year, which was just incredible. We had over 100 Black women in the BBC space, like television centre, historical BBC space.
43:49 And it was just Black women who all have a common, like we all have stuff in common because we all work in scripting.
43:56 And so suddenly, like you're able to talk about anything and everything. And then you're realising all these old connections.
44:02 Like, you know, I reconnected with someone I went to acting school with 10 years ago, you know, like, you know, who's now also working in the industry.
44:11 And I was like, oh, my God, that's where you were. It's just like, sis, you know, I've been alone.
44:17 And I was like, well, we're here. You know, it was just really cool. It was really beautiful.
44:22 I love that, man. I love that. I love that. Well, Cass, yeah, no, no.
44:28 I am so happy that we've caught up today and long may Black women in scripted continue to flourish and provide that support because it's needed.
44:43 And, yeah, we'll definitely be talking about, you know, like if there's anything that we can do from the cinema side.
44:50 But also like you're an inspiration and your journey. I love it. I love it.
44:56 And long may that continue as well. Because, yeah, we need more people like you who are great at what they do, but then also aren't afraid of helping the people coming up and pulling them forward, too.
45:11 So, amazing. Thank you.
45:13 Thank you.