'Financially it was a madness' Shifters star Heather Agyepong on her journey & more!
Yourcinemafilms.com | Shifters star Heather Agyepong breaks down how she navigated her career in the early years of her career and why stories about Black love don't always need to be rooted in trauma.
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00:00Now, everyone's making it in film and TV, but we don't really know how. Here, we uncover
00:07the truth. Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:12Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast. This is the place where we explore the truth about
00:17the industry, film, TV, and theatre, and hear it directly from those who are smashing it
00:23in their fields. Today, we've got a true multi-hyphenate. She is an actor, a performer, a photographer,
00:32a visual artist. She does it all, and at a really high level. She's been in Schoolgirls
00:39or the African Mean Girls play. She's been in Amazon Prime's The Power, as well as the
00:46critically acclaimed Shifters, which recently got a West End transfer. And she stars in
00:54it opposite Tosin Cole. We welcome Heather Adjapong. What's going on?
01:00Hello, hello. I'm good. I'm well. Glad to be here.
01:04We are. We are glad you are here, too. So, as I was mentioning, we have a new structure
01:11to our podcast. I think maybe after this one, I can stop saying it's new because it won't
01:16be new anymore. It's just what we do. But I will run through. My first question for
01:22you, Heather, is in your own words, what would you say it is that you do?
01:27Oh, I would say I'm an artist. But when I say that, usually people say, oh, you paint.
01:33So I always say I'm a visual artist and an actor because I think those are the main kind
01:38of components of my practice.
01:40Amazing. What would you say a visual artist does?
01:46So what I do is often use lens or performance based work to create art. So it's kind of
01:54an umbrella because sometimes I use video, sometimes I use lens, sometimes I perform.
01:58So visual art is just kind of the umbrella term for those.
02:03That's it. Be free, be free, be free. I love it. I love it. My next question is, what were
02:11the first three years of your professional career like?
02:15Well, in terms of acting, I was a visual artist before I got my first agent. So I think I
02:22really understood my kind of my value systems and how I wanted to story tell. And in my
02:30art career, I understood the importance of mentorship. So what I did when I wanted to
02:35get an agent is that I went to like kind of like minded people. And at that time, it was
02:39Tallulah Theatre Company, who are a black led theatre company in London. And I just
02:44kind of attached myself to them and said, please, I want to learn. And I did the young
02:48people's program. And then I auditioned for a job called Girls that they were producing.
02:53And I got the job and I got my agent. And then Tallulah kind of put me under their wing,
02:58actually. It was like a lot of mentorship and advice. And there were these three black
03:05women who are really fundamental. It was Gail Babb, Mimi Finlay. And they're no longer
03:09there. But and someone called Renee Musai, who's a curator. And though that mentorship
03:15really helped guide the early years of my career. So I felt held during that time.
03:21Do you know what, that is so amazing. So would you say that when you decided, all right,
03:27cool, I want to spread my artistry into acting, that you joined Tallulah and you just got
03:34like the first gig that you went to audition for?
03:38No, it was the second, it was the second, it was the second.
03:43Well done. I love it. I love it. So casting your mind back to those first three years.
03:51And it sounds, it sounds amazing to be in a safe space and a company of more than one
03:59person who, you know, you can express how you truly feel, get feedback, even if it's
04:07criticism, it's for the best, it doesn't feel negative, like all of that stuff, right. But
04:12what would you say in those first three years, whether that was inside Tallulah or outside,
04:16right? What was difficult for you in during that, that period of the first three years
04:22with regards to acting?
04:24I guess it was that it's kind of still difficult when you're not working. I think those moments
04:28of being out of work, because sometimes you don't get feedback from these auditions, you
04:33can internalise it and think, oh, gosh, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not good enough. I think
04:37that those, the three, the first three years realising how up and down it is, that kind
04:42of inconsistency felt quite scary, actually, because everyone else has had like salary
04:47jobs and nine to fives, and I had a job and then nothing and then had a job and then nothing.
04:52So I think it was getting used to the rollercoaster of the career and knowing that that's kind
04:57of the nature of the beast. And accepting that, I think it was difficult for me to surrender
05:04to those moments of stillness, do you know what I mean? But yeah, now I think I've become
05:09a bit more accustomed to that. So probably that.
05:12Wow. You know, it's funny, there's, I'm going to tell you something after this point, right?
05:19So given that time, right, of the ups and downs, that way you were sort of calibrating
05:27and understanding that, you know, this is how things can go. Where were you at in life?
05:34Was it like you had just finished uni and like your friends are, you know, like you
05:38were talking about salary jobs and stuff, like what was the landscape for you like personally
05:42around that time?
05:43I think I was in like my early 20s. The thing is, with me, my visual art career was doing
05:47really well. So I had representation. So the difficulty was that I was comparing the two.
05:55So my visual art practice, my work was at Tate, it was at all of these places. And then
05:59the art stuff was like, oh, like the, sorry, the acting stuff felt very difficult and different
06:05in comparison. So I just kept comparing the two thinking I should be at the same kind
06:09of point. So it was more of an internal battle of like, I'm this age, I should be doing this
06:15and all these kind of expectations I was putting on myself. So yeah, everyone was kind of going
06:21into their like, I think I was, I just finished my master's. Yeah, I just finished my master's.
06:27And there's this expectation of getting money, like paying it back and all of that stuff.
06:31And all of my other friends were kind of, felt more established in their careers. And
06:37I was like, still figuring it out. And financially, it was like a madness. Do you know what I
06:41mean? So it was difficult not to compare, I guess.
06:45I hear you. Wow. Yeah. A bit of an emotional learning curve. It sounds like.
06:54Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
06:57Cool. So given those difficulties, what did you enjoy the most about those first three
07:04years as an actor?
07:05I think it's that mentorship, like meeting other like minded people, finding your community
07:10and sometimes you go to audition with the same people. So then you become friends. And
07:15I think it's finding that like, that the community actually, and like, sometimes, because our
07:22industry as an actor and an artist, it's so precarious. Sometimes you need other people
07:27who are in precarious industries to feel validated a little bit and they can understand your
07:31struggle. And so I think that was the exciting bit of like finding that your tribe.
07:37Wow. You know what, right? This, this is amazing, because it sounds like in the early
07:43parts of your career, you've been graced and fortunate enough to have that solid foundation
07:55of community. Both, you know, there's this thing that they that I heard and I think it's
08:03so true is that like, you should have friends that are older than you friends that are the
08:08same age and friends that are younger or people in your life that you can relate to in those
08:14three different ways. And yeah, it sounds like what you said in terms of the wisdom
08:20and the hindsight from people who are older in terms of the mentorship, and then it's
08:24like, okay, cool, you're going up, we're going up for the role. It's not competition. It's,
08:30like, cool, we both want it. Oh, you got it. Oh, amazing. And then you're like, in
08:34the trenches together and all of that stuff, like finding the tribe. That sounds really
08:38beautiful.
08:39It takes time to I love your point about it's not competition, because at the start, the
08:45industry makes you feel like it's competition. It makes you feel like there can only be one
08:49black girl in Britain who is doing all this stuff. But it, um, it feels like a set up
08:55like, the more we band together and do this as like a unit, the actual further we get
09:00as like black women as actors. So at the start, I was kind of really trying to develop my
09:07security actually, as a person. So I'll be like, she's got it great. If people know me,
09:12if I get an audition, I don't think it's for me. I'll send it to everyone because I'm like,
09:16if it's not me, it's for someone else. Do you know what I mean? I just I really think
09:19like, if we work as a unit, it will shift the narrative.
09:24So how did you get to that point? So early?
09:30I don't think I, I think I read a lot about like, like, female critical theory, and like,
09:39us as a movement and organising my works quite like, I guess, is all about the diasporan
09:46identity, my artwork. So I think that informs like, ideas around community and change and
09:54shifting and yeah, yeah, it just, and also it's personal development. I did a lot of
09:59personal development at the start of like, being secure in myself and knowing that if
10:04one person wins, we all win. I think I've read a lot and I just kind of did more development
10:09for myself, I think, yeah.
10:11Sorry, do you know what, it's deep because as you're speaking here, I'm like, oh, wow,
10:19I wanna, I wanna know what you read. I'm like, what is this? The reason why I write
10:25is because I'm just thinking of how others can feel like this, because, you know, there's
10:36this thing of like, cool, someone has raw talent, but it's, your talent will take you
10:44somewhere, but your character will keep you. So sometimes it's like, okay, cool, the person
10:51is arrogant or whatever, and other people don't like them. And sometimes the person,
10:57when they get to a particular place, they don't like themselves. And then they self
11:01destruct and we hear all these horror stories. And I'm, I think, maybe this is a conversation
11:07for another day, but I think there's something extremely powerful about what has been able to
11:14make you so well secure in yourself, that would be so important for other creatives, actors,
11:23filmmakers at the beginning of their careers, to also add to their talent, because there's
11:29so much rejection in it. So yeah, that's a beautiful point. I was talking to the old
11:35generation for a really long time, there was a thing that National Theatre used to do where
11:40I think it was called the Sarmist, I think Martina led, run it, and it was basically like
11:46an intergenerational conversation. And also, Taloa's history of community building and not
11:51needing this idea of having our own building, having our own narrative, those sort of ideas
11:56were instilled in me. So I was like, I want to build, I don't want it just to be about me,
12:00I want us to like build, because also, like you said, at the start, we've come off the backs of
12:07loads of people. So for me, personally, it feels like my duty to carry that on,
12:11do you know what I mean? Like, sure, I'll do this thing, but I want to leave something that like,
12:16the next girl is like, oh, I can, I can, a ladder, do you know what I mean?
12:22I love that. I love that. And that second point that I was gonna, I was gonna mention, right, was
12:29literally, we did a workshop with Demi Ladipo, not too long ago, and he said exactly what you said
12:37in terms of like, when it comes to auditions, when you're like, if you get an audition, by the time
12:45you get an audition, especially when you get to like, further rounds and stuff, it's not even
12:51about you not being good. There's so many, like, if you don't get the job, it's like, well, then
12:56why would they waste their time inviting you to an audition? Why would they bring you for a
13:00callback? It's not about you. You've clearly got the talent. There's so many other things
13:08that go into it. That is like, obviously the obvious ones, do they look like the, you know,
13:14the other characters? Sometimes it's the fight, but then there's probably so many other things.
13:21But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that you're aware of that. Because, yeah.
13:29I'm still messed up, right? I'm still like, why? Is there something wrong with me? But I think
13:33there's always a mantra of like, I am good enough. And also, I've been on castings, like on the other
13:41side of castings and seeing how that works. And someone will come in and be fantastic. But you're
13:46like, no, but the chemistry is different to them. Like, it's often, it's really often not personal.
13:50So I think I just kind of remember those moments of like, it's not me. It's just like, and also,
13:55I believe like, what's meant for you won't pass you by. So do you know what I mean? It will come,
14:00it will come. I love that. I love that. I love that. So that is, you know, great about what you
14:08enjoyed. What I want to know next is, to date, what has been your biggest industry upset?
14:17What do you mean about that? Upset, what does that mean?
14:19So I guess something that was, I guess, quite disappointing for you. You don't have to give
14:28like a specific detail or, you know, because it might involve a person or production, but
14:33something that was like an experience that, yeah, was upsetting for you.
14:39Probably the most recent thing, and I don't think she'll mind me mentioning is
14:44how Fran was treated during the Romeo and Juliet stuff. I think as Black actors, actresses, we were
14:53all, and femmes, we were all quite mourning that. That just felt really disappointing and
15:00disheartening. So there's like a real sorrow about like, where Black actresses can exist.
15:07Like, it feels like, gosh, are we still limited by all of that stuff?
15:11But I think, again, community, like thousands of Black women and men, and like all sorts of people
15:20banded together around her and stood up for her. And there's something that, I don't know,
15:25it feels like we can band together and transform pain and transmute it into something else. Because
15:32we're like the experts of that from our history. Do you know what I mean? Like we can transmute
15:36pain. So, yeah, it was seeing how the community showed up, but just really disappointed that the
15:41industry still got a lot of issues, and people have a lot of issues, you know?
15:46Yeah, do you know what? It's, I love what you said about transmuting the pain, because
15:53what's really interesting, and I find it in some ways similar to the England backlash, when
16:02the guys missed the penalties, like a few years ago, where it's like, if you win, or if you fit
16:11inside what the expectations are, and you win on those terms, you're a hero. And if it's something
16:18that's a bit different as to what someone expects, it's like it can't be handled. And, well, did you
16:26know what? Cool. With Push Comes to Shove, I don't really care about you that much. And this is,
16:31this is how I feel. Given, because I guess, I'm not an actor, and I think it's such an interesting
16:39upset that you've mentioned, right? What did that feel like seeing that? Like in the first week,
16:46would you say?
16:47It was like a mourning. It was a mourning, because it felt like it wasn't, it was about all of us.
16:54And I've got a lot of Black actor and femmes who are interested in seeing ourselves more,
17:04being in different spaces. So I think it was just like a mourning. It felt like
17:08it was a grieving process of like, gosh, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this.
17:14Gosh, this industry that we love still has so many issues. So it's that sort of like,
17:23not love hate, but like, it's such a difficult relationship you have with this industry,
17:27which sometimes doesn't affirm you. Do you know what I mean? So it was mourning. But I think the
17:32thing is that it felt collective. We were all holding each other. So yeah, sometimes you have
17:39those moments where you're like, this industry. Okay, let's keep going. Do you know what I mean?
17:43Yeah. 100, 100, 100, 100. Beautifully explained. Cool. So what would you say
17:49to date has been your biggest industry win for you personally?
17:53Doing shifters.
17:58I mean, Western transfer, Pierre, that's like, what an honour. And I say that because there have
18:04been so many plays that should have been transferred but haven't. So it's just kind of like,
18:11God's timing, favour and luck. Do you know what I mean? Like that we're here. So yeah,
18:16it just feels like an honour and a role which I just adore. So yeah, I think probably, probably
18:22this. Yeah. So let's, let's get into shifters. What was it like doing the first run?
18:28I think we all knew that it felt important, talking, making a play about love, and at the
18:36centre to black people being in love. So I think we knew the significance of it. But I think we
18:41were quite well, I can only talk for myself, I was very overwhelmed of how much people resonated
18:47and selling out and people like queuing up for tickets. I just I don't think I understood
18:55the significance of the whole thing, really, until it was sold out every night. And
19:01we hardly did any marketing for it. So um, yeah, a bit overwhelming, but
19:07incredible to be a part of. So yeah, mixed loads of emotions.
19:11You know, you know, I saw there was something I'm not sure if it was a write up, but there was,
19:18I think there was an article that I saw that it was about, it said, maybe it was on one extra,
19:26it doesn't matter, I'll say and you know what I'm talking about. It says,
19:30finally, a black love story that isn't centred on trauma. I didn't fully understand that. Could
19:38you unpack that? If that makes sense to you? Or your perspective on what that title might mean?
19:44Yeah, I think the editor probably created that from what I was saying. I think it was about,
19:54I said that sometimes when we see black characters on stage, it's centred around
20:00the problems of being black and navigating that. And I think those stories are really
20:07important. But if all you're seeing is that, I think the narrative becomes really skewed.
20:12And that's all we talk about. Do you know what I mean? So it's refreshing that even though
20:18the show is about love, it explains like loss and grieving and all of the things,
20:22it's centred about them loving each other and being seen. So I was just advocating for like,
20:28multiplicity of stories, you know? Yeah, I love that. Like a true artist.
20:35What, what do you love about this industry, Heather?
20:39Ah, to tell stories, you know what, it's such an honour to be in front of people and taking some
20:45of their time and being able to like, speak to them. Like it just feels like an honour that
20:51someone is taking 90 minutes out of their day to watch us or someone's watching a TV show,
20:57like to take someone's time and having to be able to affect them. That's like divine work for me.
21:04So I think that's my favourite thing, actually, that people are,
21:09we can affect change in some way by making stories.
21:13I love that. So I had a chat with Michael Balogun, right? And he is like, he's such an amazing
21:23character. He, he said something to me, which I found really interesting, but also, and also very
21:31true, right? He said that there's something about when people come together, especially in theatre,
21:40but in general, what he meant was that like, when people come together, and they're focused on like
21:45one goal, it's like, it's like magical. It's like the Avengers all coming together and we're,
21:51we're doing something. Given that, you know, you've got quite a lot of experience in theatre,
21:56like what, and, and the, the impact that that coming together, it's like you guys, you know,
22:05create this energy ball and then send it out to people and, you know, it affects and impacts them,
22:11like, like you said, right? What is that like, that incubation period of formulating this,
22:17this project or story? Oh, it, I mean, our audience and shifters were like the best audiences,
22:24they were so cool, and loud and calling out, it was just, it was so wonderful, because that means
22:31that they're really into it. And it's like percolating, and they're being affected by it.
22:37So it feels incredible. It sometimes it, it can take you out. So you have to also be like,
22:42okay, focus on like, someone is cracking up, and it can take you out. But um,
22:46and also like, it reminds you of like, how we like commune and how we like,
22:51how we communicate and celebrate and people like,
22:57like, all of that just feels like an experience, it feels like people are experiencing something,
23:04and it's a memory. So that it just feels wonderful that you're knowing that you're
23:08affecting people. So I hear what Michael was saying, it's like, it's quite a powerful thing,
23:14it feels quite powerful, because everybody's looking at everything you're doing. So there
23:18is a like, an honour and like, makes me, I want to, it makes me want to be the best I can be,
23:25because people are like relying on me to tell the truth.
23:31So, you know, right, I just had this thought of like, someone is cracking up, or they're,
23:37you know, they're so vocal, right? Do you ever, you know, like, do you ever,
23:46like, react to them in a, like, whilst you're, whilst you're performing in a way that incorporates,
23:54like, I don't know, you know, like, when you said it takes you out, like, what does that look like?
23:59Or is it just something that's internalised and you have to remind yourself to focus? Like,
24:02are you looking at them and you, like, what happened? That's the story, I'm so excited.
24:07Well, in our show, we look at the audience a lot. So um, it's often, you just take a beat,
24:12like, you allow them to, like, finish the laughter. Lynette Linton, our director, who's amazing,
24:16will be like, people are gonna laugh. So she'll just, she'll, she'll tell us, like, at those
24:20moments, like, give yourself a beat if that happens. Because what I don't want is to come out
24:25and then take everybody out. They're like, oh, that's Heather. Do you know what I mean? So I'm
24:28conscious that we need to serve the story as best as possible. So we never, we never come out of
24:36character, but we just take a beat, like, okay, let's go. Yeah. Wow.
24:42Okay. All right. So what, what, what is that? What is, is that, does improv help with that
24:52a lot? Or because, do you know what it sounds like to me, right? It sounds like,
24:57it sounds a bit like a football match where you've got your tactics, but then also, you know,
25:06you don't know what's going to happen when, and you have to be able to flow with it, but not in
25:12an anxious way. It's like, okay, cool. That's happened. Like you said, I'm going to take a
25:17beat and then we keep, it's like, and some people would find that really exciting. But yeah, like,
25:23what, what is that ability to do that? I think. I love your example. When I was watching the Euros,
25:29I was like, when they were doing the penalties, I was like, gosh, there's such a focus. Like,
25:33it's like, it's kind of like, they're not even here. Sometimes I don't even really
25:38think about the audience. All I'm looking at is Dre, who's played by Jason. That's,
25:43I'm thinking about my objective, right? So whatever anyone else is saying, I'm looking,
25:47because sometimes people laugh at like shouting bits and that's their stuff. My job is to serve
25:52the story. So I'm just laser focused on that. So how do we, there's a thing in Meisner called
26:01repetition and it's basically like an acting technique. And it's basically putting your
26:06attention onto the other person. So you're not even thinking about yourself. The most important
26:10thing is the other person. It makes you feel totally not self, you're not self-conscious at
26:16all. Also, it allows you to ignore like anything the audience are saying. So I think it's a bit
26:22of a technique. I love, do you know what? That's exactly what Michael said, you know, he said,
26:27he said, right. He didn't, he didn't explain it. It was Meisner. But what he said, right.
26:32Was that, listen, if you're feeling a bit self-conscious on stage, just focus on the
26:39other person, focus on the other person. Cause then you stop thinking about yourself.
26:45Yeah. You guys are artists. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So Heather,
26:52another question it is, it might sound similar to the industry upset, but it's actually different.
26:58You can take a moment to have a think, but what would you say you
27:02hate or dislike about the industry in general?
27:09Hate, dislike. What do I dislike about the industry?
27:13And it could be anything. It could be early starts. It could be, I don't know, but yeah,
27:19just from you personally. Maybe, maybe for like working class communities,
27:22it feels like there's so many talented folks because maybe they can't afford drama school
27:27or they're not in front of certain people or don't, or don't know people,
27:30they kind of get left behind and forgotten. So yeah, it feels like there's a bit of a
27:36disparage to like who gets seen and who doesn't because yeah, the power isn't spread equally.
27:46There's like a couple of people who have the power and they make all those decisions. So maybe
27:50how gatekeepers can kind of abuse their power. Do you know what I mean? Like,
27:58yeah, that unequalness I think feels off key sometimes.
28:03Do you know what? I love this so much, right? I was thinking about this either earlier today
28:09or yesterday, right? And I'll give you an example. So Junior Salican who was in Blue Story,
28:18right? And he, and he had like one of the lead roles in it. And I was like, do you know what?
28:27He's a really good actor. He's got really good range. And I feel like a lot of people don't
28:32realise that yet. But when I was, what I was thinking was that how he got the role, right,
28:41was that Rap Man did a call out and he kind of knows him anyway. But so they, you know,
28:48did a few YouTube videos together, et cetera, et cetera. And then when everything blew up with
28:52Shiro's story and he's doing Blue Story, like, you know, got the audition, et cetera, et cetera.
28:59And I was like, do you know what? So if that didn't happen at this latter stage,
29:07he either wouldn't have known that this was even possible, because technically he's still
29:13at the early part of his career. But then it's like, I'm like, wow. And what you just said made
29:21me think of other people that, because what happened with Rap Man and Blue Story, that's an
29:26enigma. So, but then drama school and training is an actual route that is solid. You can count on
29:36it, i.e. if you want to do this, you can go here. You can't count on going viral and then being
29:43cast in like a Blue Story kind of thing. And I love when, yeah, just when you said that,
29:49it made me think of like, oh, wow, how can we make things more accessible? Yeah.
29:55No, that's such a good point. I never went to drama school, but I trained. So I did tons of
30:01part-time courses and classes. And I think into time of the mentorship, I wanted to go around
30:07directors, makers who resonated with me, like, and I think that also is like a route, like go to
30:14places where, or directors or directors talks or those conversations, expose yourself to places
30:21you want to be at. So I think that's another route, but right now it's still skewed, right?
30:26Some people just get out of this really quickly and some don't. So, yeah.
30:30And to your credit, right, you have done, based off of what you're saying, I would say that
30:40you've done really well because, and I don't mean you've done really well as in you've become
30:47really successful because of this. What I mean is you've done really well by being the sort of
30:52person that is relentless about the pursuit that you want to go on. And it reminds me of like
30:58someone like Ajani who like, he was at every industry event that is like, because I want to
31:07be here. Like he was studying, he was in Jamaica. He came here to like, all right, cool. Let's try
31:14and make something happen because the, you know, the opportunities seem to be better and he was
31:19everywhere. And I think to your credit, he is a grafter. Yes, he is. He is. He is. And it's,
31:28and it sounds like you're the same. Like, you're like, no, do you know what? I decided I want to do
31:32this. So I just need to be around people and this thing will figure itself out. Yeah. Yeah. I think
31:39also my faith has played a massive part. Like I know I'm supposed to be a storyteller and I,
31:46and I truly believe that. So I'm like, all right, God will do his part. I'm going to do my part.
31:51And when I'm going to be in these events or have these conversations, and I just believe the doors
31:56will open and so far so good. Do you know what I mean? I'm just going to keep doing that. I love it.
32:00Amen. Cool. Heather, what do you need to make your best work?
32:08I think I need the writing to be good. I think when I've auditioned for things and the writing
32:16hasn't been, and when I mean that, I mean like there's no vision or the vision is unclear or
32:21they don't have anything to say. Often my work will suffer because I don't care about it.
32:27So I think I need writers who have a vision or want to say something. And that doesn't necessarily
32:32have to be like issue based or anything, but be like, I want my audience to understand this,
32:37or I want to ask questions about this. I think that's the thing for me that enables me to like
32:42do my best work because I keep remembering the vision during rehearsals, during filming. I think
32:48that's the thing for me. A clear vision. So with that, and I guess, yeah, no, yeah, yeah,
32:54that makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, no, that's cool. That's cool.
32:59Lastly, right. So, you know, Shifters started off at the Bush, which is such a great
33:07space for theatre, you know. I don't go to the theatre that much, but what I love and what I
33:16perceive about the Bushes is this like, it feels like what you mentioned at Tallawa of like,
33:25you know, if you want to get into this, like, just go there because there's stuff that something will,
33:31you'll like, you'll like something. It's like a melting pot kind of thing. It's very approachable,
33:37it seems. So obviously it started off there and the West End transfer has happened. And
33:46I guess you doing so many theatre shows, right? Like, for me, this is huge. But what is it like
33:56for you? Because you're really in like, this space. I mean, Lynette and Bene, who are like,
34:05at the helm of it, have just been like, just incredible. Like from the jump, Lynette was like,
34:11the tickets got to be accessible. They got to start from £20. Like, in term, it's just so
34:16community based, like the Bushes ethos is always like inclusivity, like and accessibility,
34:23especially now theatre is getting so expensive. And you're like, who is theatre for? And who's
34:28the arts for? They're always just thinking about the most marginalised person who will come see the
34:33show. So it just feels like an honour that that ethos isn't like shifting now in the West End,
34:38like we're still doing that, it's still for the people. So that feels like an honour. But also,
34:43playing this like, black romantic lead feels again, like, this isn't just for me, this is for
34:48like all the black women and femmes who've been told you're not a romantic lead, or have missed
34:52out on jobs or have felt like that space isn't for us. Like it is, it is. So I'm doing this for
35:00myself, primarily, but also all of us, do you know what I mean? Because I'm hoping this will be like,
35:07part of the shift that's happening.
35:11I love that. This is why we're all so important, right? Because
35:21I would probably have missed that key point that you just said, because I'm not
35:30a female actor, who's black, in terms of like, yeah, cool. This is great for Heather. And
35:38there's a ripple effect that can help a lot of other black female actors in terms of like,
35:47no, yeah, like you said, you are a black female lead. There isn't a
35:52prototype of how you have to be or look, which I guess is, okay, I'm seeing it now. Okay,
36:01this was the whole issue with Fran, isn't it? Yeah, the whole issue before of like,
36:05no, you can't play Julia. And it's like, why? Oh, because there's a box.
36:12Oh, there's an invisible box. That's why. Okay, cool. So something like this helps to
36:18shatter the box, or at least continue to chip away at it. So
36:22absolutely. Rylane, like being Taylor, like all of that has probably allowed shifters to even happen
36:29like subconsciously or inadvertently. So yeah, it feels like there's definitely movement happening,
36:36which feels exciting. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Heather, it has been amazing chatting with you.
36:44So refreshing. I love your artistic inclinations, and you definitely see the bigger picture.
36:52So yeah, I'm wishing you all the best with shifters. I may even be there.
36:58This is not our last time speaking. It won't be. And also, Pierre, all the work you're doing for
37:03your cinema is incredible. So important, accessible, and make people feel like they're
37:09not alone. So big up you because you're doing really important work. Real talk.
37:15Oh, we thank God, we thank God. Amazing! Thank you, Heather.