As UN peacekeeping mission in Mali ends, they will leave behind security 'vacuum' difficult to fill
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00:00 This Monday in Mali's capital, the United Nations flag taken down for the last time.
00:04 It marks the end of a 10-year deployment of peacekeepers in the wake of the French-led
00:09 campaign that back in 2013 stopped jihadists from swooping on Bamako.
00:14 From a high of 15,000 blue helmets and UN police, MINUSMA now down to a little more
00:19 than 3,000, with the rest to go before the end of the year.
00:24 The falling out between the UN and the junta in Mali follows a similar feud that led to
00:28 the departure of French forces last year.
00:32 With us, Leonardo Santos-Simao, special representative for the United Nations Office for West Africa
00:37 and the Sahel UNOWAS.
00:38 Thanks for being with us.
00:39 Thank you.
00:40 You're just back from a regional summit in Abuja.
00:43 More on that in a moment.
00:45 But first, your reaction to, I know it's a symbolic ceremony, lowering the flag in Bamako,
00:52 the UN flag.
00:53 What are your thoughts on that?
00:54 Well, it's the end of one type of relationship between the UN and Mali.
01:05 And this happens at the request of the Malian government, which was made in July.
01:11 However, the relationship between the two entities will continue through the normal
01:18 channels of agencies, programs and funds of the United Nations.
01:24 Locals concerned, saying that it's a hasty departure and they're in danger because these
01:32 are areas where UN forces had patrolled, in some cases lost their lives fighting against
01:38 these jihadist insurgents.
01:40 Is that concern justified?
01:41 Yes, absolutely.
01:42 They are justified because the MINUSMA was providing also security to the population
01:51 and also to other entities operating in that country.
01:55 So their departure will leave behind a vacuum, which will not be easy to fill in short term.
02:05 It's part of what we've seen, a broader trend of those three countries within the so-called
02:10 three borders region, Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, coup leaders who say, we don't need
02:17 the French, the former colonial power.
02:19 We don't need the international community.
02:21 We don't need regional powers to help us solve our problems.
02:25 Well, it goes beyond the Sahel region because we saw the same requests from the Congo, DRC,
02:36 but also from Sudan.
02:39 So here there is a mismatch between what are the expectations of the entities, local entities,
02:50 within communities living under security threats and attacks all the time.
02:58 They expect the United Nations to be a more protective mission on one hand, but also by
03:07 conducted counterinsurgent activities, which is not in their mandate.
03:14 And therefore, there is this sort of disappointment because of the expectations up into that.
03:24 So now there is this discussion about adopting other forms of combating terrorism, but using
03:35 different formats.
03:37 And the African Union is promoting the African-led missions on that.
03:42 What do you think of the fact that all three of these countries have reached out to Russia?
03:48 Its leadership has been in the region just last week.
03:51 Yes, we talked with them.
03:53 When they talked with them, they said that, well, they're not having support, particularly
03:58 from the regional organization, which-
04:00 Are the Russians going to do better?
04:03 Well, I think it's more a measure of despair than anything else, because the results so
04:10 far, well, they're not showing that the results are much better.
04:13 Now, you're just back from that ECOWAS, that West African States Summit in the Nigerian
04:19 capital Abuja this weekend, one where Liberia's outgoing president George Weah received a
04:26 standing ovation for recognizing defeat in a close presidential election.
04:31 That's a rare bright spot in a region that we've talked about those coups that have happened
04:36 throughout the Sahel.
04:37 More recently, we've had armed unrest in Sierra Leone and Guinea-Bissau.
04:40 I would like to retreat imperative of the region to continue to reengage other than
04:41 the two, and this is a realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy
04:42 and move growth now.
04:43 No alternative.
04:44 I would like to retreat imperative of the region to continue to engage other than the
04:45 two, and this is a realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy and move growth
04:46 now.
04:47 No alternative.
04:48 I would like to retreat imperative of the region to continue to engage other than the
04:49 two, and this is a realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy and move growth
04:50 now.
04:51 I would like to retreat imperative of the region to continue to engage other than the two,
04:52 and this is a realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy and move growth
04:53 now.
04:54 I would like to retreat imperative of the region to continue to engage other than the
05:15 two, and this is a realistic and short transition plan that can deliver democracy and move growth
05:16 now.
05:17 No alternative.
05:18 So no alternatives to democracy and good governance, says Boletounubu.
05:19 However, it feels like what's emerging from that ECOWAS summit is a deal with the coup
05:20 leaders in Niger.
05:21 The president, deposed president Mohamed Bazoum, who's been under house arrest, go, and in
05:28 exchange will start to normalize ties.
05:31 Your thoughts?
05:32 I have somehow different reading of the situation.
05:35 I think if you look back before the summit of the situation, there was a stalemate between
05:42 ECOWAS and this country.
05:45 There was no dialogue, which means that there were not discussions about how to solve the
05:53 existing problem that was not there.
05:55 So what the summit did, in my view, was precisely to open the way for this dialogue to be resumed
06:05 on one hand, but also taking measures which can help these countries to fight terrorism.
06:11 That's why the decision to revive the African Stand-by Force has been taken also.
06:21 So that on one hand, dialogue between ECOWAS and these countries is going to be resumed,
06:28 which means that they are going to discuss practical ways and modalities of resolving
06:34 the problems on one hand, but also the modalities of assisting these countries to fight terrorism
06:44 through African-led forces also is likely to happen.
06:49 But after first condemning, rejecting, it's a normalization of ties that you're describing.
06:56 And I think that's what we need to do.
06:59 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:02 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:05 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:08 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:11 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:14 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:17 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:20 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:27 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:30 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:33 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:36 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:39 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:42 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:45 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:48 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:51 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:54 And I think that's what we need to do.
07:57 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:00 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:03 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:06 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:09 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:12 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:15 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:18 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:21 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:24 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:27 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:30 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:33 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:36 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:39 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:42 And I think that's what we need to do.
08:45 >> I'm going to ask you a question.
08:48 You said that the government is not going to be able to
08:51 respond to the elections.
08:54 You said that the government is not going to be able to
08:57 respond to the elections.
09:00 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:03 respond to the elections.
09:06 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:09 respond to the elections.
09:12 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:15 respond to the elections.
09:18 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:21 respond to the elections.
09:24 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:27 respond to the elections.
09:30 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:33 respond to the elections.
09:36 You said that the government is not going to be able to
09:39 respond to the elections.
09:42 You said that the government is not going to be able to